Naruto Lightning Speed + Senjutsu

[Callsign_Castle]

Zetsu made a general statement, thus he was speaking inclusively about all lightning.

What Damage is saying is people are assuming he's specifically speaking about Sasuke's Kirin. Zetsu's statement also implies that all lightning touches the Earth within the same timeframe at any distance.

 

[AstralKing7]

Zetsu literally said describing Kirin. We don't need to be rocket scientist to know he was describing Kirin when he said Itachi wasn't going to dodge it

 

[Callsign_Castle]

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0391-006.png

"The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second"

What part of this says Kirin?

 

[BlackeJan]

Literally after he talks about Kirin, White Zetsu says "why not" and he responds with what White Zetsu says. Yes he's still talking about Kirin

 

[TataHakai]

I'm back

Let's consider the arguments being made here and why they're not only fallacious but simply just contradictory of how we do things here

" First of all, age doesn't necessarily equal knowledge."

I agree but what's the point of this exactly? are you really purporting that Zetsu is incapable of knowing simple knowledge such as how fast Lighting is? I guess Yama's heat isn't 15 million degrees because he doesn't know how hot the sun is and he's not a reliable source just because he's old, this is a pretty poor argument to make as it doesn't debunk the statement any more than it supports it.

"Black Zetsu is a renowned liar"

Ahh, here's our first fallacy, the association fallacy "Black zetsu lied to Madara about being on his side so Black zetsu is lying to the audience about how fast Lightning is" despite the fact that Lying about Lightning's speed doesn't serve him any purpose nor advantage, whereas when he did lie he lied to further his plans, so this argument falls apart in an instant if you even consider the absurdity of it.

" he isn't a scientific source"

Buddy, you'll find 99% of fictional statements DON'T come from scientific sources, this literally means nothing, none of us here are scientific sources but still know the speed of lightning and are able to tell you.

"There's no reason that lightning in the Narutoverse should be any faster than lightning in the real world"

Of course, except it is because Kishimoto says it is, he sets out how fast Lightning is in his own verse and we go by that, this seems like an argument from disbelief fallacy, there is a reason it's faster, Zetsu's statement.

"The statement itself is wrong. It says the speed of lightning is a timeframe, 1/1000th of a second, which isn't a speed."

Before i even begin, is this a serious argument? These are getting more absurd by the second, Zetsu's saying it's not possible to dodge it because the speed is 1/1000 of a second, what would he be referring to when he's specifically talking about how undodgeable it is? It's obviously a reference to how fast it hits the ground since that's the speed that would be relevant to dodging or avoiding it.

" We can provide any distance that falls in the range of cumulonimbus clouds, but they're just safe guesses."

I agree, which is why i've always said we should use an average of all the distances of the cloud as the distance.

" His surrounding information is incorrect as well. He stated nobody could evade it, but Itachi did (in the worst of conditions at that), therefore people like Madara, Hashirama, Pain, etc. could."

Are you really incapable of sorting hyperbole out from the actual factual not contradicted information? Being wrong about one thing doesn't automatically mean you're wrong about the whole thing, i guess we better throw out Einstein's entire books and theories since being wrong about a few things means he's wrong about everything, it being undodgeable is contradicted, it reaching the ground in 1/1000th of a second ISN'T, that's why one is hyperbole and the other isn't.

". It adds confusion to the story when you remember Kakashi's raikiri got its nickname when he cut lightning with the jutsu."

You didn't explain what you mean by "confusion" so i'm not even sure what this point means, but i'll assume you mean scaling wise, it really wouldn't, Kakashi by then was already a well renowned Jounin with a sharingan and skill far above his age, we have new gen characters are several thousand mach so this again is just wrong.

"We use that value for one feat, Kirin. We systematically use our wiki's lightning values for every other lightning calculation."

Well you're right for only the second time, there should be an argument made for Lightning speed in Naruto to be changed based on the information given to us in the series.

"I haven't found anything that alludes to natural energy making a technique "more real"."

It's not a "misconception" and natural energy alone doesn't make anything instantly real, it's just more support towards it, like Light fang for example, if it was only made of natural energy and thats all we knew it wouldn't be enough to support it being natural light, but with the other information we have it's extra support.

In conclusion the entire premise of this argument is based on fallacious points you could apply to every single series in this wiki and it would look pretty dumb to, literally all your points boils down to either "Zetsu lied to Madara so he's unreliable" or you simply not wanting to believe it's that fast.

 

[Damage3245]

Literally after he talks about Kirin, White Zetsu says "why not" and he responds with what White Zetsu says. Yes he's still talking about Kiri

If he is talking about Kirin, why would that he mean that the time for Kirin to hit the ground is 1/1000 of a second instead of, for example, the time it takes for Kirin to hit its target who is Itachi?

 

[TataHakai]

So we went from "zetsu doesn't know the speed of lightning because he's not a scientific source" to "Zetsu can perfectly know the speed of lightning, and is able to calculate the timeframe of lightning hitting where Itachi is from its position in the clouds all in his head within a few seconds"

These arguments are getting more contradictory by the second.

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; If you read my earlier posts you'd know that I don't agree that Zetsu calculated all of this on the spot in his head.

I mentioned Itachi as a counter-example against the assumptions being made that Zetsu was referring to how fast Kirin is at hitting the ground.

 

[Jvando]

If he is talking about Kirin, why would that he mean that the time for Kirin to hit the ground is 1/1000 of a second instead of, for example, the time it takes for Kirin to hit its target who is Itachi?

Damage...that's what we've been saying. It can only mean one of two things.

1) The time it takes for Kirin to hit the ground

OR

2) the time it takes for Kirin to hit its target.

Both instances apparently fall within the range of Lightning speed anyway.

 

[TataHakai]

Then how would Zetsu use use 1/1000th of a second to refer to the situation rather than the general speed of Lightning?

As for Kirin, Kirin is normal lightning just as a collective to pack more of a punch, why would it be any slower or faster?

When BZ says Lightning is 1/1000th of a second he's referring to how fast Lightning moves

What we should do instead of our current Kirin calc is simply find the average speed of lightning and apply it to any situation in Naruto where lightning is involved.

 

[Jvando]

Besides, Zetsu was also making a sort of general statement about lightning so it would obviously not specifically mean how fast it takes to hit the target but instead how fast it travels to the ground.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I agree with the OP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

After reading both sides, I strongly agree with TataHakai.

 

[Elizhaa]

I disagreed with the OP based on the opposition counterpoints like @TataHakai's and @Jvando's.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly, after reading both sides, I'm with TataHakai and Jvando on this one.

 

[Damage3245]

As mentioned in the original thread linked in the OP, all this would seem to do is create an exclusive exception for Naruto feats based on a single statement by Black Zetsu which has multiple interpretations.

Either we calc the speed of lightning in Naruto based on that statement, or we do what we do for almost every other lightning feat on the wiki and use the standard average for it.

 

[Jvando]

The reason we use average lighting (as far as I'm aware) is because most fictional verses don't outright give us a speed to work with. We always assume average based on this fact. However, if a speed is given to us and we can reasonably apply it to the situation, why wouldn't we?

 

[Damage3245]

The reason we use average lighting (as far as I'm aware) is because most fictional verses don't outright give us a speed to work with. We always assume average based on this fact. However, if a speed is given to us and we can reasonably apply it to the situation, why wouldn't we?

Technically speaking a speed hasn't been explicitly given to us. Only a timeframe, and while we can assume different distances, it is impossible to know which one Kishimoto meant for us to use specifically.

Using the most conservative height for that type of cloud and the speed we'd get is actually below our average.

 

[Rocker1189]

As mentioned in the original thread linked in the OP, all this would seem to do is create an exclusive exception for Naruto feats based on a single statement by Black Zetsu which has multiple interpretations.
Either we calc the speed of lightning in Naruto based on that statement, or we do what we do for almost every other lightning feat on the wiki and use the standard average for it.

It does not create any exclusivity, only Kirin has it own calc.

 

[TataHakai]

I don't see what the problem is

All other verses are assumed to have normal lightning speed because there's no statement about Lightning being faster or slower, Naruto does.

There isn't "multiple interpretations", there's only 1 "Lightning reaches the ground in 1/1000th of a second"

The only variable is distance which i've always said we should use the average of all 3 distances of storm clouds.

 

[Damage3245]

It does not create any exclusivity, only Kirin has it own calc.

Tata said this:

> What we should do instead of our current Kirin calc is simply find the average speed of lightning and apply it to any situation in Naruto where lightning is involved.

I took that to mean calculating the speed of lightning in Naruto based off of BZ's statement and using that for every calc in Naruto which involves lightning.

 

[Rocker1189]

Tata said this:

> What we should do instead of our current Kirin calc is simply find the average speed of lightning and apply it to any situation in Naruto where lightning is involved.

I took that to mean calculating the speed of lightning in Naruto based off of BZ's statement and using that for every calc in Naruto which involves lightning.

I dont think that is what he meant as we dont even do that even when the original kirin calc was accepted.

 

[AstralKing7]

It happens to everyone^

 

[Mindovin]

@CC

Sasuke isn't using senjutsu he is creating real lightning with using the heat of the Amaterasu and fireballs to create thunder clouds and only shapening and controlling with his own lightning.

2) I now understand you didn't read manga other than the feats becaue Itachi tanked it with Susano'o didn't evade it .

3) We don't know the context. Did he waited his hand in the air for minutes/hours or something else?

4) So, we should start to using this value for every NV lightning calc now?

 

[TataHakai]

I do think we should use this figure for Lightning in Naruto

Kirin is Natural lightning, it just packs more power because it's ALL the lightning energy in a storm, that's why the clouds disappear after it's used once.

Zetsu doesn't say "Kirin's speed is..." he says "Lightning's speed is..."

Since Kirin is natural Lightning it'd apply regardless.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I agree with this. Kirin should not be assumed to be any faster than average natural lightning speed; and since it is portrayed as being clearly faster than other Lightning-Style techniques, it is also evident that the speed of all Lightning-Style techniques is not the same.

I agree with this, that Kirin should not be assumed to be any faster than average lightning as it's explicitly natural lightning, thus natural speed.

I don't fully agree with the OP, but I agree with the basis that Kirin has natural lightning speed and this is what made it noteworthy since every other Lightning Style Jutsu is not this fast. That speed was literally the main point about Kirin, Zetsu explicitly points this out.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Orochimaru stated that Kabuto's neurons move at 360km/h (100m/s), which would mean Part 1 Jonin tiers would have average human reactions, which contradicts double-digit mach calculations such as Temari reacting to sound.

1/1000 of a second lightning being unavoidable due to its sheer speed is contradicted by Kakashi doing it before through lore.

Both of which are numbers provided by the author. The argument is now information from the author takes priority over the wiki's standard practices yes?

 

[TataHakai]

It wasn't the speed at all

It was the "scale" aka the destruction that was far bigger than anything normal jutsu did.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Completely agree with TataHakai here

 

[Damage3245]

It wasn't the speed at all It was the "scale" aka the destruction that was far bigger than anything normal jutsu did.

The whole reason why Sasuke and Black Zetsu thought it would be impossible to dodge (even if you think they're being arrogant about it) is that the speed of the jutsu has to be on a whole other level.

If it was comaprable in anyway to normal Lightning style ninjutsu, their statements would make sense at all.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

"No one can evade the jutsu, just like the amaterasu?!"

"In short I merely direct its power to you"

"Just as I thought...which is why it cannot be evaded...The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second...its faster than sound!"

The subject of this statement of the speed, emphasized by the repeated use of ellipses which are grammatically used to get straight to the point.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Kirin is a Special Lightning Style Jutsu


Kirin Is Special Because It Is Lightning Speed

First Scan:

In the first scan Black Zetsu points out to White Zetsu that Sasuke is making a Lightning Style Jutsu by using the clouds above that are currently cumlonimbus clouds, thunder clouds.

White Zetsu is perplexed and wonders which Lightning Style Jutsu Sasuke which use; however, Black Zetsu explicitly states: "Doesn't matter. Whichever one it is will be on a totally different scale than what anyone can create using change in chakra nature alone!"

It is explicit that Kirin would be absolutely all around superior to any other Lightning Style Jutsu because it is actually going to use real lightning. Lightning Style Jutsu are not on par with real lightning. An obvious fact as stated by Zetsu.

Second Scan:

In the second scan, Sasuke explicitly states in the first line that Kirin solely guides lightning straight down at it's target: "This jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens... in short I merely direct it's power toward you."

Kirin, as Black Zetsu stated, is all around superior to Lightning Style Jutsu due to utilizing actual lightning and Sasuke explicitly states that Kirin is mainly just directing lightning directly at his target. Kirin moves at lighting speed due to being real lightning per Sasuke's words. Kirin is all around superior to any Lightning Style Jutsu per Black Zetsu's words.

To follow up on this, Black Zetsu solidifies why Kirin is even more special as compared to regular Lightning Style Jutsu:

"Just as I thought... Which is why it cannot be evaded..."

"Why not?"

"The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second... It's faster than sound!"

Again, Kirin is a special Jutsu, one that is superior to any Lightning Style Jutsu solely because it uses actual natural lightning per Sasuke and Black Zetsu's words. Kirin is a special Jutsu because it is merely directly lightning itself towards the target itself with it's power and speed per Sasuke's words. Kirin is a special Jutsu that can't be evaded because it's actual lightning and moves at actual lightning speed per Black Zetsu's words.

Another point that disproves Lighting Style Jutsu being lightning speed:

Sasuke already had numerous Lightining Style Jutsu such as the Chidori Stream that he used to incapacitate a group around him.

If all Lightning Style Jutsu were equal to lightning, there would be literally no point in Kirin existing. There would be no reason for Sasuke to have even used actual natural lighting for it's power and speed that makes it powerful and undodgable if all lighting style Jutsu were equal to lightning.

 

[AstralKing7]

Man bruh here we go again literally just like the last thread that got accepted about lightning speed with the same arguments

 

[TataHakai]

Imade if you want to downgrade Lightning style jutsu then create another thread for it

This thread is discussing the speed of natural lightning and Kirin.

 

[Damage3245]

Imade if you want to downgrade Lightning style jutsu then create another thread for it
This thread is discussing the speed of natural lightning and Kirin.

This is pretty relevant to the topic since you're suggesting we use a new calculated speed for both Kirin and any other lightning feat in Naruto.

 

[Rocker1189]

If all Lightning Style Jutsu were equal to lightning, there would be literally no point in Kirin existing. There would be no reason for Sasuke to have even used actual natural lighting for it's power and speed that makes it powerful and undodgable if all lighting style Jutsu were equal to lightning.

That does not cancel out Kirin being superior, you basically just copy and pasted what you put in the Lightning style thread were lightning style being lightnign speed was accepted.

Kirin used an entire lightning cloud for 1 attack, it is very obviously superior in anyway to normal lightning and lightning jutsus.


No normal lightning is as big or as powerful as Kirin. Compleltely disproving your point of Kirin not being superior.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Then you missed the point of my comment as it was pointing out that Kirin's specialty is that it's lightning speed, unlike Lightning Style which don't have a lightning speed statement to support them. If we incorrectly assumed all Lightning Style were lightning speed, there is no point in Kirin's existence when it's unique property as stated by Zetsu is that it is impossible to evade due to being lightning speed.

So I advise you to actually read it over properly and respond if you are able to.

 

[Jvando]

This is a thread about Kirin and its speed, not all lightning style Jutsu. That being said, we use average lightning speed because authors don't give us a time frame or speed to work with.

Zetsu did.

Therefore, we calculated the speed of Kirin and it turns out to be faster and much stronger than average, further supported by the fact that all the thunderclouds were used up in that one attack. Since this is the case and Kirin is just superior to average Lightning, it is still entirely probably that lightning style Jutsu are comparable to real life average lightning speed. Again, that, however, is a totally separate CRT.

 

[Rocker1189]

Then you missed the point of my comment as it was pointing out that Kirin's specialty is that it's lightning speed, unlike Lightning Style which don't have a lightning speed statement to support them. If we incorrectly assumed all Lightning Style were lightning speed, there is no point in Kirin's existence when it's unique property as stated by Zetsu is that it is impossible to evade due to being lightning speed.
So I advise you to actually read it over properly and respond if you are able to.

I read everything, it is not any different to what you said in the other thread.

We have multiple statements in databooks putting lightning and other attacks at lgihting speed and discribing lightnign jutsus as discharges of electricity, in other words ligtning. Normal lightning style has also demonstrated all but 2 catergories required to be lightning speed.

The Kirin is more powerful than normal lightning, seen in both speed and its power being massively superior lining up with zetsu's statement of it being massively more powerful than any other lgihtnign style used at that point.

 

[Rocker1189]

This is pretty relevant to the topic since you're suggesting we use a new calculated speed for both Kirin and any other lightning feat in Naruto.

except again, that is not what is being said. Are you ignoring what I am saying?