Naruto Lightning Speed + Senjutsu

[TataHakai]

Imade if you want to downgrade Lightning style jutsu then create another thread for it
This thread is discussing the speed of natural lightning and Kirin.

This is pretty relevant to the topic since you're suggesting we use a new calculated speed for both Kirin and any other lightning feat in Naruto.

Literally where did i say that

I said we should use it when Natural lightning and Kirin is concerned

 

[Damage3245]

except again, that is not what is being said. Are you ignoring what I am saying?

I was responding to Tata's proposal. You might not agree with what Tata is suggesting either, but he did post it on this thread so it should be fine to discuss.

 

[Rocker1189]

I was responding to Tata's proposal. You might not agree with what Tata is suggesting either, but he did post it on this thread so it should be fine to discuss.

natural lightning is not lightning jutsu. So it is not for every lightning feat. In fact it only applies to Kirin.

 

[Damage3245]

Literally where did i say that

I said we should use it when Natural lightning and Kirin is concerned

The main argument for calcs dependant on Lightning-Style Ninjutsu is that they are supposedly comparable to natural lightning in speed.

You mentioned earlier about calcing the speed of natural lightning in Naruto based on Black Zetsu's statement.

So why would that speed not be applicable to Lightning-Style Ninjutsu, if they're supposed to be comparable to natural lightning?

 

[TataHakai]

Damage, just like Imade that's a whole 'nother thread to be discussed in

This thread is specifically about Kirin and Natural lightning, so if you want to discuss the lightning jutsu in Naruto whilst using Kirin as an example then make a downgrade thread rather than making this thread about something else when we haven't even resolved the first topic.

 

[Damage3245]

natural lightning is not lightning jutsu. So it is not for every lightning feat. In fact it only applies to Kirin.

Sorry if I'm missing something here but there appears to be a contradiction.

If Lightning Jutsu is not Natural Lightning, then why do some people keep trying to use average lightning speed (440,000 m/s) for it like the Kakuzu calc?

If natural lightning speed only applies to Kirin, then it would seem you're in agreement with me that average lightning speed should not be used for other Lightning-Style Ninjutsu calcs?

 

[Rocker1189]

Sorry if I'm missing something here but there appears to be a contradiction.

If Lightning Jutsu is not Natural Lightning, then why do some people keep trying to use average lightning speed (440,000 m/s) for it like the Kakuzu calc?

If natural lightning speed only applies to Kirin, then it would seem you're in agreement with me that average lightning speed should not be used for other Lightning-Style Ninjutsu calcs?

lgihtning jutsu follow the rules of natural lightning thus has its speed.

Kirin is su[perior to that based on feats and the fact that kirin uses an entire lightning clous on one strike and is also stated to be much more powerful than normal lightning techniques.

 

[Damage3245]

So natural lightning in Naruto is faster than our accepted average, but Lightning-Style Ninjutsu should use our accepted average because it is comparable to natural lightning.

That's inherently contradictory.

EDIT: You're also missing the fact that Zetsu's statement wasn't for Kirin specifically, but lightning in general.

 

[Kepekley23]

Strongly agree with Tata.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I really question if either side of this "jutsu are lightning speed" debate actually understand what the other is saying because from where I am, neither is actually responding to each other's statements.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The crux of the matter is the speed of natural lightning in Naruto. This is directly part of Kirin which is explicitly stated by Zetsu to be natural lightning, thus natural lightning speed.

Why Lightning Style Jutsu are brought up is due to calcs currently using lightning speed for those Jutsu.

It all connects and is one large scale discussion.

 

[TataHakai]

EDIT: You're also missing the fact that Zetsu's statement wasn't for Kirin specifically, but lightning in general.

This is what i keep trying to say

I mean i've never been a fan of Lightning style jutsu being lightning speed, i could see why the argument was being made but there's as much proof as there is things against it but the matter of the fact is that Zetsu's statement is 100% fine

Though in reference to the argument i think you're trying to make Damage, Kirin is natural lightning so it would be for Kirin too regardless.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Kirin is special because of both it's speed and scale.

I agree with Tatahakai on the speed of Kirin. Nothing contradicts BZ's Statement. I agree also that the average for distance of thunder clouds be used (Never understood why we don't used Mediums here as the standard).

The arguments against BZ statement is pure bullocks.

I agree with Qwased about the speed not being "Faster" than Natural Lightning in General, just faster than the average used on this wiki.

Personally (And all Naruto Supporters know this) but I don't really agree with the Lightning Style Jutsu being "Lightning Fast" but if they can prove it, sure I guess, I'm staying neutral on that topic, but I lean towards no.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Now I ain't got no problem with Kirin. And I'm kinda out of the loop with everything else. So what exactly made lightning style Jutsu real lightning? Seems like it's just muscle contraction, but I could be wrong.

 

[Damage3245]

@The real cal howard; Some lightning-style jutsu has exhibited these factors from the Lightning Feats page:

• flowing through conducting materials (Some lightning jutsu has been shown to go through water)

• making muscles of affected beings contract (Yamato noted this when Sasuke sent lightning chakra into him)

The issue that I see though is that just because a jutsu is made out of lightning in some way doesn't mean the default speed for it has to be that of lightning.

Wind-style jutsu is made out of moving air / wind, but in many cases it clearly moves faster than the speed of natural wind can.

So the speed of a jutsu is not just defined by what it is made of. What the jutsu does, how it moves, who it is used by, etc. are all factors that could potentially affect the speed.

If a basic lightning jutsu was performed by a Genin and a basic lightning jutsu was performed by Sasuke at the peak of his power; would we say that they both move at a baseline speed of 440,000 m/s? That just seems weird to me.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Now I ain't got no problem with Kirin. And I'm kinda out of the loop with everything else. So what exactly made lightning style Jutsu real lightning? Seems like it's just muscle contraction, but I could be wrong.

It's being claimed to be Lightning Fast because it meets several different criteria to be considered Lightning Fast.

 

[Jvando]

There was evidence for muscle contraction, conduction, electrolysis, and its strength against Zetsu which are fodder building level, though that last one might or might not matter much. I can post scans if you want?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

And while i'm on the fence regarding it, Sasuke did demonstraight that Lightning Style can be used to control real Lightning (Which meets another criteria listed on the wiki).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I 100% agree with TataHakai, Kepekley23, DarkDragonMedeus, and others.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Yeah, but the main specialty of Kirin was that it was impossible to dodge because it uses natural lightning speed.

Zetsu states this when Zetsu knows Sasuke has other Lightning Style Jutsu.

Literally one of Sasuke's first feats in Part 2 was Chidori Stream, casting out a Lightning Style Jutsu towards a target.

Literally at the start of Sasuke vs Itachi, Sasuke uses Chidori Spear and misses Itachi's head by a few itches.


So yes, Kirin should be lightning speed. It has the statements for it by Sasuke and Zetsu. That's why Kirin is special, but every other Lightning Style Jutsu should not be lightning speed. It would literally debunk the whole point of Kirin.

 

[Damage3245]

I feel like IMade sums this up well.

People want to dismiss Sasuke's statement as him being cocky, or Zetsu's agreement with him as just being plain wrong, but people aren't acknowledging the whole reason why they would make these claims in the first place.

 

[Xulrev]

I 100% agree with TataHakai, Kepekley23, DarkDragonMedeus, and others.

Where did anyone but Tata even comment in this thread? I feel this is missing some context?

 

[Damage3245]

Where did anyone but Tata even comment in this thread? I feel this is missing some context?

I think he means he agrees with their agreement of Tata. But it is a little redundant.

 

[Xulrev]

There was evidence for muscle contraction, conduction, electrolysis, and its strength against Zetsu which are fodder building level, though that last one might or might not matter much. I can post scans if you want?

Any elecritcity based attsck showcases the first two, so they're fairly irrelevant.

Electrolysis was only demonstrated by one specific Raiton.

As to damaging genin, its easily plausible that they simply have no resistance to electricity since it demonstrably affects them so easily.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Yeah, but the main specialty of Kirin was that it was impossible to dodge because it uses natural lightning speed.
Zetsu states this when Zetsu knows Sasuke has other Lightning Style Jutsu.

Literally one of Sasuke's first feats in Part 2 was Chidori Stream, casting out a Lightning Style Jutsu towards a target.

Literally at the start of Sasuke vs Itachi, Sasuke uses Chidori Spear and misses Itachi's head by a few itches.


So yes, Kirin should be lightning speed. It has the statements for it by Sasuke and Zetsu. That's why Kirin is special, but every other Lightning Style Jutsu should not be lightning speed. It would literally debunk the whole point of Kirin.

All things considered, BZ statement only really debunks LS Jutsu moving at Kirin speed. Anything below is fair game and as Qwased pointed out, Lightning Speed Ranges from Mach 291+ - Mach 4k+. Even then, feats could override that.

 

[Jvando]

And Sasuke also uses lightning style Jutsu to guide the Kirin

 

[Damage3245]

> All things considered, BZ statement only really debunks LS Jutsu moving at Kirin speed. Anything below is fair game.

But Kirin's speed is apparently the speed of natural lightning.

And if natural lightning in Naruto only has one speed, then using our average speed of natural lightning for any Lightning-Syle Ninjutsu calcs makes no sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why would natural lightning only have one set speed? It varies based on various conditions. Zetsu's statement shouldn't amp every lightning feat in the verse, but at the same time it does fall within the realms of plausible speed.

Even if the specifics are questionable like the height of the clouds, Kirin itself falls in the range for natural lightning speed.

 

[Rocker1189]

Why would natural lightning only have one set speed? It varies based on various conditions. Zetsu's statement shouldn't amp every lightning feat in the verse, but at the same time it does fall within the realms of plausible speed.
Even if the specifics are questionable like the height of the clouds, Kirin itself falls in the range for natural lightning speed.

This is exactly what I am saying.

Damage seems to believe that kirin can not be a higher speed than the average natural lightning.

 

[Xulrev]

Naruto verse does have one set speed for lightning if we accept Zetsus statement though.

So we have to accept the statement for the calc and then proceed to also ignore it at the precise same time to prevent wider implications.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Naruto verse does have one set speed for lightning if we accept Zetsus statement though.
So we have to accept the statement for the calc and then proceed to also ignore it at the precise same time to prevent wider implications.

This is actually wrong. Naruto has 1 set "Time-Frame" for Natural Lightning (1/1000th of a second).

The actual speed depends on distance from cloud to ground. Naruto world doesn't have 1 set cloud height.

 

[Damage3245]

@TheFinalOrder; that would imply that lightning takes the exact same amount of time to travel to the ground regardless of how high up the lightning starts.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If your issue with it is the vague wording then use that as your crux. But the current arugment I'm seeing is an absoulte mindset about a statement that's obtuse in my view.

Either use the established 440k or do a uniform upgrade, either way it should be fine.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

We can't do a uniform upgrade, because as he's been saying it would imply all lightning jutsu share the same speed as Kirin.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TheFinalOrder; that would imply that lightning takes the exact same amount of time to travel to the ground regardless of how high up the lightning starts.

Hey, I didn't write it, that's what Kishimoto asserts for "His" Manga.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As of now there's a grand total of three jutsu accepted as lightning speed. Kirin, Madara's thing, and the move Kakazu used. Madara's jutsu should be a non-issue and the Kakazu thing, barring a future CRT, is currently accepted as being an exception to the rule.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Well, the Kirin issue is a separate issue from Lightning Style Proper. I think this thread has reached a conclusion about Kirin.

 

[AstralKing7]

As of now there's a grand total of three jutsu accepted as lightning speed. Kirin, Madara's thing, and the move Kakazu used. Madara's jutsu should be a non-issue and the Kakazu thing, barring a future CRT, is currently accepted as being an exception to the rule.

???theres way more than that

 

[AstralKing7]

But yeah I guess this thread is concluded huh

 

[Damage3245]

???theres way more than that

I think he is referring to calcs currently in use.