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Naruto Lightning Speed + Senjutsu

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Apparently Zetsu's statement was debunked here, but it is still used in calculations.

1. First of all, age doesn't necessarily equal knowledge. Black Zetsu is a renowned liar and he isn't a scientific source, though that's not to say he's lying about his statement, but I'd take Orochimaru's word over his regarding anything scientific. There's no reason that lightning in the Narutoverse should be any faster than lightning in the real world, nor are there any differences between the rest of the elements in the Narutoverse and our world. Its more likely the author doesn't know lightning's speed.

2. The statement itself is wrong. It says the speed of lightning is a timeframe, 1/1000th of a second, which isn't a speed. We can provide any distance that falls in the range of cumulonimbus clouds, but they're just safe guesses. His surrounding information is incorrect as well. He stated nobody could evade it, but Itachi did (in the worst of conditions at that), therefore people like Madara, Hashirama, Pain, etc. could.

(Evade: to take refuge in escape or avoidance. Itachi avoided direct contact with the lightning.)

3. It adds confusion to the story when you remember Kakashi's raikiri got its nickname when he cut lightning with the jutsu.

4. We use that value for one feat, Kirin. We systematically use our wiki's lightning values for every other lightning calculation.

There's a misconception that senjutsu makes a nature art jutsu use real energy, thus making its properties the same as its naturally occurring source, but that isn't the case.

Fukusaku states the difference between ninjutsu and senjutsu. Senjutsu just adds outside/natural energy to internal chakra to have more powerful chakra/ jutsu. Natural energy is just the energy of Earth.

I haven't found anything that alludes to natural energy making a technique "more real".
 
I think that this seems to make sense.
 
I agree with this. Kirin should not be assumed to be any faster than average natural lightning speed; and since it is portrayed as being clearly faster than other Lightning-Style techniques, it is also evident that the speed of all Lightning-Style techniques is not the same.
 
So what would the final value be with Mach 1294 (Our avg. speed for lightning)?
 
100% disagree with everything you said but I can't currently make a counter argument so please wait for my return in a few hours before making any changes
 
I also disagree about everything here. Of course age gives u knowledge about things in life, if I may ask but what exactly when was Zetsu even around? back with Kaguya so this man had been around for more than 500 years. Don't know why just of what he said is to say that "he's exaggerating so this doesn't count" when there r many animes that have said things like that and we still scale them
 
To add my thoughts, I think its okay to use the average lightning speed. But it should be noted that lightning heavily deviates in speed. Even the accepted article in this wiki mentions this deviation.

The speed and current during the final stages of the lightning stepped leader were determined from features of the electric field waveform. The average speed of the leader tip was found below the height where dE/dt was zero for close lightning. This height was in the range 0.6-2.0 km for flashes at the distances considered here, 3.6-5.7 km. For 10 stepped leaders observed near Tampa, Florida, the mean final one-dimensional speed was 4.4×10^5 m/s, the standard deviation was 3.8×10^5 m/s, and the range was 1.0-14×10^5 m/s. These speeds are consistent with other stepped leader speeds reported in the literature that were found using optical techniques.

Souce

As shown the minimum speed in the main study is mach 291.5 and the max is mach 4,081. So saying that its faster or slower is a bit weird when it deviates IRL.

Using the accepted average should be perfectly fine though. Zetsu' estimations could easily just be based on the idea that the clouds are 440 meters above their current location anyways.
 
@Qawsedf

Zetsu knows these things, the man been around more than 500 years. Not only that but why is IRL having to be intertwined with anime that can go farther beyond that? it's stated to be faster then IRL lighting so it is. They have chakra that can boost things ya know
 
BlackeJan said:
it's stated to be faster then IRL lighting so it is.
Where did he say that its faster? Also as I said before: "Zetsu' estimations could easily just be based on the idea that the clouds are 440 meters above their current location anyways."
 
Damage3245 said:
I agree with this. Kirin should not be assumed to be any faster than average natural lightning speed; and since it is portrayed as being clearly faster than other Lightning-Style techniques, it is also evident that the speed of all Lightning-Style techniques is not the same.

You would have been correct but unfortunately Kirin is faster than Kakuzu's lightning style jutsu False Darkness which Zetsu knows about from being a member of the Akatsuki and being the one who researched the members in the first place. He made the statement even with knowing about False Darkness
 
Damage3245 said:
I agree with this. Kirin should not be assumed to be any faster than average natural lightning speed; and since it is portrayed as being clearly faster than other Lightning-Style techniques, it is also evident that the speed of all Lightning-Style techniques is not the same.
Not only does Kakashi state that he can alter the range and power of his lightning style, but the databook says the same thing. Both Kakashi and Sasuke's lightning arsenal are basically derivatives of the chidori, so there's obvious gaps in speed and power.
 
There isn't any obvious gaps in speed when the context would allow for Kakashi nor Sasuke to make their attacks go slow which would have been CIS which u guys are suggesting


No logical reason to assume they did in the face of threats like Pain

Also Chidori activates at the speed of lightning
 
AstralKing7 said:
You would have been correct but unfortunately Kirin is faster than Kakuzu's lightning style jutsu False Darkness which Zetsu knows about from being a member of the Akatsuki and being the one who researched the members in the first place. He made the statement even with knowing about False Darkness
The obvious solution there is to not assume that Kakuzu's False Darkness actually travels at lightning speed.

All the databook says is that the lightning bolts are transformed into a spearlike form, and that it travels at high speed.

EDIT: Anyway, this thread is primarily about Kirin and Senjutsu-based Lightning techniques.
 
Wow after reading through the rest of the op I absolutely disagree because this is stuff that was already brought up disagreed with

Using a hyperbole for downgrade makes no sense at all

Also you seem to not have any contrxt about fights in Naruto. When u say nobody could avoid Kirin your literally taking that at face value huh? Itachi was half blind at that point with no chakra. He didn't avoid Kirin he tanked the attack just in time by activating Susanno at the last moment. So your wrong and Sasuke was exaggerating by being completely cocky and barely having experience agaisnt strong opponents like Itachi
 
@AstralKing7;the argument that Sasuke is just being cocky is false because Black Zetsu agrees with him. Even in his assessment he thinks it would be impossible for someone to evade.
 
Holy shit, we are saying zetsu is a liar because of the fact that Itachi and other high level ninja can evade it. I am so ******* done with this wiki. This is actually the most unbelievable thing I have seen here.
 
Apparently Zetsu's statement was debunked here

manga >>>>>>>>>>>>fans opinion

debunked manga statement with fan opinion? what is this? some fanfiction?

we are not writing fanfiction here

saying that bz dont know anything is nothing but baseless assumption

100% disagree but i will let tata debunk it

@Antvasima why is that we have to take fans opinion over manga statement?
 
Rocker1189 said:
Because it is gievn a time frame?
And no given distance.

Estimates can be made of course based on various different cloud heights, but it is impossible to prove exactly which height / distance he is referring to.
 
People saying he's a liar does confuse me since there's absolutely nothing implying such a thing. But saying it faster than lightning when the distance between the hideout and the thunderbolt is unknown is something I disagree with (also Sasuke moved Kirin a bit closer before it was fired anyways).
 
Damage3245 said:
And no given distance.

Estimates can be made of course based on various different cloud heights, but it is impossible to prove exactly which height / distance he is referring to.
Distance would obviously mean to the target or to the ground.

Is it really that hard, are you guys so willing to downgrade everything in Naruto that you are fine with going against extremely obvious assumptions? I know you guys hate Naruto but god damn.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
People saying he's a liar does confuse me since there's absolutely nothing implying such a thing. But saying it faster than lightning when the distance between the hideout and the thunderbolt is unknown is something I disagree with (also Sasuke moved Kirin a bit closer before it was fired anyways).
It is called calcing, a thing we do for every series. Kirin moving itself is its speed.
 
Rocker1189 said:
Distance would obviousy mean to the target or to the ground.

Is it really that hard, are you guys so willing to downgrade everything in Naruto that you are fine with going against extremely obvious assumptions? I know you guys hate Naruto but god damn.
Nobody here hates Naruto, you're displaying an irrational bias.
 
Rocker1189 said:
Distance would obviously mean to the target or to the ground.

Is it really that hard, are you guys so willing to downgrade everything in Naruto that you are fine with going against extremely obvious assumptions? I know you guys hate Naruto but god damn.
Total Ad Hominem attack. Not even worth a response.
 
Callsign Castle said:
Nobody here hates Naruto, you're displaying an irrational bias.
Yeah, sorry but past history of most members here that agree with this headcanon really does not show that.
 
I would when the obvious brigading of Naruto stops. So calcingsaid distance is not allowed when we have been given no distance. Is what I am recieving from this thread.
 
AstralKing7 said:
There isn't any obvious gaps in speed when the context would allow for Kakashi nor Sasuke to make their attacks go slow which would have been CIS which u guys are suggesting

No logical reason to assume they did in the face of threats like Pain

Also Chidori activates at the speed of lightning
I'm unsure of Chidori activating at lightning speed, but the rest of your response boils down to simple chakra control. Such as spending 30% of your chakra on a shadow clone versus spending 70%. They can't both be comparable to each other. Then there's the fact that jutsu are chakra percentage based, meaning someone with a pool of chakra 100 times greater than yours using 10% is much greater than your 10%.
 
Rocker1189 said:
It is called calcing, a thing we do for every series. Kirin moving itself is its speed.
I've looked through the thread. 880,000 m/s or 1,000,000 m/s is fine calc wise then. Fits with the standard deviation of lightning at least anyways.
 
Rocker1189 said:
I would when the obvious brigading of Naruto stops.
So calcingsaid distance is not allowed when we have been given no distance. Is what I am recieving from this thread.
The verse is going under a revision right now which will receive downgrades, so I do not understand your anger.
 
Callsign Castle said:
I'm unsure of Chidori activating at lightning speed, but the rest of your response boils down to simple chakra control. Such as spending 30% of your chakra on a shadow clone versus spending 70%. They can't both be comparable to each other. Then there's the fact that jutsu are chakra percentage based, meaning someone with a pool of chakra 100 times greater than yours using 10% is much greater than your 10%.
very obviously wrong, chakra used in jutsu is based on how good your chakra control is. You can use more to make t more powerful but with higher chakra control but lower chakra pool you can useless and still make it as powerful or more powerful than someone with higher chakra amount. And that is about jutsu power, not speed.
 
BlackeJan said:
@Qawsedf
Zetsu knows these things, the man been around more than 500 years. Not only that but why is IRL having to be intertwined with anime that can go farther beyond that? it's stated to be faster then IRL lighting so it is. They have chakra that can boost things ya know
1000 years
 
I mean, him being old doesn't mean he's reliable. But absolutely nothing in the text or situation implies that he was lying about the lightning's speed.
 
Callsign Castle said:
The verse is going under a revision right now which will receive downgrades, so I do not understand your anger.
Which might recieve downgrades.

You dont understand my anger when we have been getting brigaded over several threads dowgrades or upgrades, no matter what.

Where we have people write obvious headcanon like this, implying characters are lying because someone could surprise them via showing abilities beyond their expectation.

Yeah I dont understand my anger either.
 
Damage3245 said:
And no given distance.

Estimates can be made of course based on various different cloud heights, but it is impossible to prove exactly which height / distance he is referring to.
u really didn't read manga did u? its cumulonimbus cloud to ground

not impossible cuz we have pixel scaling to prove exactly which height/distance he is referring to.
 
Rocker1189 said:
very obviously wrong, chakra used in jutsu is based on how good your chakra control is. You can use more to make t more powerful but with higher chakra control but lower chakra pool you can useless and still make it as powerful or more powerful than someone with higher chakra amount. And that is about jutsu power, not speed.
So you're saying Konohamaru and Kage Naruto can make a rasengan each using 10% of their chakra and stalemate each other?

And are you also saying use of more chakra only increases strength, not speed?
 
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