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Naruto: Kaguya Otsutsuki Regeneration Downgrade

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Can yall stop being cryptic and elaborate on what you mean when you disagree?

Like I shit you not, I've seen like 5 people disagree and simply say "I will comment later on why I disagree," "You're wrong," and "No," and just refuse to expand on their thoughts. It's weird as hell and makes you seem unserious.
 
Yeah y’all are actually pissing me off with this wannabe mystery shit y’all keep doing

I don’t care if you agree or disagree, I care why.

Y’all wanna voice that you disagree so bad, we don’t care

Give a reason or get tf out
 
Kachon123 said:
elaborate on what you mean when you disagree
Click to expand...
KingTempest said:
Give a reason or get tf out
Click to expand...
Careful what you wish for, boys.



Well, I have a lot to say, so I'll get to the point. I'd like to preface my post with a couple of things.

1)Frankly, I was really pissed when I first read through this thread. Had I made this response right away, my tone would've been dramatically different, and not for the better. I've since calmed down and decided that my message will come across better if I made my points in a level-headed manner. With that being said, I would still like to express my grievances with this thread. I am profoundly disappointed, and genuinely upset by this thread, the circumstances under which it was made, the manner in which the debate has been conducted, and the intent behind it. To be quite honest, I don't appreciate the overly aggressive manner in which this debate has been conducted, and I honestly put the blame mostly on the OP. Not only is it very haphazardly put together, but it's also unnecessarily confrontational, condescending, and rude in many parts. The same goes for the subsequent response to the counterarguments made, regardless of their merit. It's unbecoming of a staff member, and more importantly, a pillar and role model to much of the community. Our job as staff members and leaders of our respective verses is to try and make sure that the respective fandoms get along well, and move past the stigma of toxicity that has plagued the HST for many years. It's absolutely disastrous if we, of all people, further perpetuate this divide and toxicity. I must also question the peculiar timing of this thread. Kaguya's regeneration has been around for years at this point, but it's conveniently come to the attention of all the One Piece fandom as an issue worth addressing right when the Law vs Kaguya thread was reaching its breaking point. I'm not one to accuse people of making spite threads, but ya'll's tones and the way you've been conducting yourselves really isn't helping your case here. VS battles get heated, that's fine, and I don't care. It's when ya'll start messing with my profiles that I start to take issue. I have issues with this thread based on its own merit and argumentations, and I'll get to them below. However, I still felt the need to air out my frustrations first. The verse is, as you all know, under heavy revisions currently; revisions for which I am almost singlehandedly responsible. Threads like this just take away from my time that could be spent revising the profiles, and hey, that's another reason why I'm a bit salty lol. Like, the Juubi Jinchuriki's Regeneration in particular was a topic I had been planning to revise in my own time, but now I'll be forced to rush out my arguments here. Now, no rules were violated here. Everyone has a right to revise the profiles if they feel something in them is wrong or can be improved upon. That's fine. I just wish I had been consulted, that's all. Overall, yeah, whatever. Nothing illegal is taking place here. I'm just sincerely disappointed and upset, and I had to put that out there. To quote Kratos, 'We must be better'. I'm not even gonna claim that the other side did nothing wrong, they probably have, but that shouldn't matter. We have an obligation and responsibility to be above all that shit. I urge ya'll to not resort to knee jerk reactions when you read this and actually attempt to understand what it is I'm really saying here. Ya'll can feel free to ignore this rant if you want.
2) I'm extremely busy IRL, so I might not be able to respond in a super swift manner. I'll try to make this post relatively comprehensive to make up for this, though. I won't have to respond much if I already say most, if not all, there is to say.

Time to get to business, I guess....

The OP has brought up many things, so to address each thing I'll have to break up this response into multiple sub-sections.

"Kaguya has no Regeneration":

Yes........Yes, she does.
It's so funny how this sensationalist, generalized claim was inadvertently debunked later on by Damage when he brought up that she regenerated her arm. So she, in fact, does have Regeneration. This is why we don't make big swooping claims, unless we can back them up.

Anyway, the main feat that should be looked at here is this right here. Juubi form Kaguya momentarily morphs into its original state as a mass of chakra, and out of that chakra, Kaguya reforms her physical body. In other words, she reforms her body that was reduced to raw Chakra. In case any of you aren't aware, Bijuu are in essence masses of raw chakra that were given physical form by Hagoromo. They've been shown many times to be fundamentally raw chakra, and can exist in those states. I'm only bringing this up to show that Kaguya existing and being comprised of pure chakra, and then reforming her body from said chakra, is very consistent with her physiology as a literal Bijuu, in this case the Ten-Tails.

The idea that this was a "transformation" is quite frankly asinine. We've seen Bijuu transformations many, many times in the series, and it is never, ever, like this. It's always either a relatively instantaneous affair, or a slightly gradual one, depending on which showing you choose to look at. In both cases, it never matches what we see Kaguya do here. Furthermore, we've never seen any Bijuu willingly turn into pure chakra, and then transform back into their physical form. It's not an ability they have, nor is it something they have shown at any stage in the series. Their true forms are indeed pure chakra, as I've shown, but they don't have the ability to willingly change their forms in that way. There's also the fact that Kaguya didn't willingly transform here. Naruto's Bijuu Rasenshurikens ****** with the Bijuu inside her and caused her to take on this unstable form, without her willing or controlling it. She then was reduced to that chakra state, and willed her body back into its original state.

The simplest possible interpretation we can gleam purely from what we see, as per Occam's Razor, is that Kaguya was reduced to pure chakra, and reformed her body from it. This is textbook regeneration if I've ever seen any. "Character X was reduced to something, character X reforms their body to its normal state from said something". In my eyes, it's exceedingly simple. Any further interpretations require weird assumptions that simply can't be supported by anything from the series itself. The burden of proof is on ya'll to assert a claim that requires us to make further assumptions beyond the most obvious thing we literally see in front of us.

Now, I'm still unsure what reforming your body from pure energy is supposed to give you as a baseline, but it's either Mid-High or High IIRC, so Kaguya should have that for now. There's potentially more we can go for, but I'm saving that for another time.

Also, I find it ironic that all ya'll OP fans are taking issue with this feat when 90% of Logia regeneration is literally the same as this, but I digress. Like deadass, all of that stuff is based on these goobers transforming into an element and reforming their bodies from it. I don't even disagree with how that's handled, it's just the double standards that infuriate me.. So to this argument, I have one thing to say in the words of the Smartest Man Alive.

"The Juubi has no Regeneration":

Ehhhhhh????????????????????????????????? I've seen this claim being floated around, and it's just wrong lol.

It had two of its arms/tails cut off, and it grew them back later on. Admittedly, this was not instantaneous, but that's besides the point.

It scorched itself, and was fine later.

It can detach large portions of itself, and still look pretty whole later on. Could also point towards its fission beings for the same thing.

It can survive having its insides blown up for god's sake......

The Juubi clearly has a pretty interesting physiology, but in any case, bringing up its regen or lack thereof is pretty irrelevant to the discussion as there's no reason for us to limit Kaguya's capabilities based on what the incomplete Juubi could or could not do. But in any case, I've shown that it clearly has a sort of healing factor, so yeah.

Why Hashirama's cells are irrelevant:

A big claim in the OP is that Madara and Obito's regeneration feats come from their pre-existing regeneration, stemming from them having Hashirama cells implants, being enhanced by the Juubi. This is.......quite baseless.

The OP has failed to provide a single piece of evidence for that being the case. Not a reference, not a scan, not a quote, nothing. I mean, am I just supposed to take your word on that? Where's the proof? We can't just make interpretations based on nothing and then pass them off as facts. Now, I have tried to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, and attempted looking through the manga and Databook to see if this came from anywhere. So far I have found absolutely nothing that points to this being the case. It's possible that I missed something, but it's also not my job to comb through everything and prove the OP's points for them. It's the OP's responsibility to provide that evidence, not mine. As such, I'll be moving forward with the conclusion that this claim has no factual basis in the manga until proof to the contrary is presented.

With that out of the way, there's more I have to say regarding this point to further invalidate it.

Let's start with the basics, with Hashirama himself. Now, Hashirama doesn't actually have any regeneration feats in the manga, as we didn't see a single full fight of his from when he was alive, it was always just snippets here and there. What we do know is that he had a very potent healing factor, which was stated to be equal or superior to Tsunade's as stated by both Madara and Tsunade herself. Tsunade's Mitotic Regeneration allows her to regenerate lost tissue, organs and limbs (also reiterated in the Databook, in even more blatant detail). Tsunade can also survive being literally shredded by Mabui's Transmission Jutsu. We've seen her easily heal being stabbed, gutted and bisected, among other things, so yeah it's pretty good stuff.

The issue is that Hashirama cells implants don't really live up to any of this. It gives a healing factor, yes, but it's actually very minor. It can't heal the loss of major organs or limbs. We've seen Obito lose his arm, and never regenerate it. Same thing happened to Madara. Obito got stabbed through the heart, and couldn't heal it........until he absorbed the Juubi. Now, guys with Hashirama cells can easily reattach limbs and whatnot, but that only gets you High-Low regen at most, so it really isn't all that great.

Now, yes, Madara currently has Low-Mid regen scaling to Hashirama, but as I've said before......the profiles are under revision and this is something that I was meaning to change, along with giving Hashirama and Tsunade a regen upgrade, but that's a story for a different thread altogether.

Anyway, as you can all see, Hashirama cells really are just completely irrelevant to what Juubi Jinchuriki can do. They're not even in the same ballpark. Obito can regenerate like half his body easily. Madara can do similar stuff as well. So without proof that this is some super enhanced version of what they already had, and not just its own thing, I don't see why we shouldn't treat this as its own thing provided to them via virtue of being Juubi Jins.

Another interesting tidbit ya'll might wanna keep in mind is that Hashirama's regeneration, and the Uzumaki clan's for that matter, comes directly from Hagoromo, as Hashirama's traits were a consequence of him being a descendant and reincarnate of Asura Otsutsuki, who had those same traits due to inheriting Hagoromo's "body" and vitality. Guess where Hagoromo inherited his shit from? Yeah.....
And before anyone mentions this not making sense since no other Otsutsuki seems to have these abilities, I mean, sure. The problem with that is that Kaguya really isn't your average Otsutsuki at that point. She'd merged with the Shinju/Juubi, and became a completely different being. She also consumed a chakra fruit, the relevance of which I'll explain in a coming section. But, yeah, people like Asura, Hagoromo, and by extension Kaguya scaling above Hashirama's regeneration makes perfect sense when we look at the context.

Addressing Kaguya's "anti-feats":

A lot has been made of Kaguya "failing" to regenerate from the damage inflicted upon her by Naruto and Kakashi. It's nonsense, and I'll explain why.

Let's start with the argument that she didn't regenerate instantly from the damage, which is pretty much this thread's main crutch for "debunking" the idea that she's got Regen. So there's a few reasons why this doesn't work.

1) It not being instantaneous literally means absolutely fuckall. Like, seriously. Look no further than Obito, who you asserted does indeed have Regeneration, healing the damage he took in chapter 596 during chapter 601. Does this mean Obito has no regeneration? Another example is Madara, who you also asserted has regen, healing the damage he received from Shukaku a chapter earlier. Does Madara not have regeneration now? Hell, let's look at this instance of Sakura not healing her burning arm. Does she not have regen either? The obvious answer is that they do. Regen not being instantaneous is not proof of it not existing, it just means it's not instantaneous......
2) To further add to my first point, it's also important to realize that while regeneration can be instantaneous and fast as we've seen in numerous instances, it's not like the characters can't control it. They can clearly "choose" or "control" when to regenerate, or when to not regenerate. Now why would they do that? Because regeneration is a taxing technique that takes up chakra, that's why. In the aforementioned Sakura example, she specifically chose not to heal her wounds because she wanted to not waste any chakra as she wanted to give it all to Obito at the time. We even saw the same thing with Tsunade earlier, who chose not heal herself in order to preserve her chakra to heal the Gokage. And Juubi Madara not immediately regenerating his lower half, despite earlier showing fast acting healing after Guy blew away half his torso. These aren't anti-feats, it's just these characters having control and agency over their bodies, as well as their healing factors.
3) Now this is relevant for Kaguya because at the time that Kaguya was injured by Naruto, she was extremely low on chakra. Why "extremely"? Well, because the statement I shared just now was uttered by Zetsu even before Kaguya shifted everyone to the Root dimension. This is relevant because her ability to switch worlds is stated to take up an enormous amount of chakra. So she was pretty low to begin with, then she used an extremely draining technique. Naruto injured her shortly after she switched worlds, and it should be noted that she was fighting Sasuke in the interim before and after Naruto cut off her arm. So she really had no time to recover her chakra AT ALL. If we look at the sequence of events genuinely and with the most basic degree of reading comprehension, we'll see the answer punching us in the groin. Like, it's really not that hard to see that Kaguya miraculously regenerated her arm and her entire body for that matter only after she replenished her chakra by absorbing chakra from the IT. It is exceedingly simple and obvious.
4) The Kakashi example suffers from a similar issue. It all kinda went down extremely quickly, as Kaguya was more focused on avoiding NaruSasu sealing her away, and it all went down within a relatively short timeframe. It's really not the end all be all proof that conclusively proves her lack of regen, lol. Plus, it's not unlikely that she was saving her chakra in case she needed to perform another world switch, but Sakura clobbered her before she could do anything.
5) A very overlooked aspect of this that's very often forgotten is the fact that Naruto actually has the ability to slow down regeneration. I don't even think this argument is necessary at this point, but it just goes to show just how many holes can be poked in this logic. And before anyone goes with the classic "tHiS iS oNlY fOr HiS rAsEnGaN", just do me a favor and prove it. You can't, because Kabuto makes zero mention of a Rasengan, even though he's fully aware of everything that happened and is intimately familiar with the Rasengan in particular. It's also not a question of AP, as Edo Tensei have been obliterated by superior AP many a time, and never really had trouble regenerating. So the only logical conclusion is that KCM Naruto has some unknown property that allows him to slow down regeneration to an extent, which would apply to SPSM Naruto as well since he's also using a Kurama chakra cloak.

The Shinju, and the Regeneration technique:

fun-this-is-where-the-fun-begins.gif

Anyone who knows me knew this part was coming.

So, let's set the stage. There's this guy from Boruto called Victor, mkay? He's a Kara inner, but honestly who cares who he is? What matters is that he has a pretty powerful regeneration ability. This ability is probably the same as Boro's (who can regenerate his entire upper body including his head), since both have access to the same technology and everything, and both have been augmented by Amado, but that's irrelevant to this point at large since Victor has his own feats. Long story short, his regen is good enough to regrow his severed head.

The reason this is relevant is because Victor considers his regeneration imperfect. This was reiterated by Orochimaru (Boruto episode 175) as well as Amado (in episode 179), who went as far as to say that even if he outfitted him with more cybernetic enhancements, it wouldn't matter because his body is still breaking down and failing. Victor's response to this dilemma was to grow a mini Shinju tree in his back office using recovered fragments from the real God Tree. He believed that eating the chakra fruit from this knockoff Shinju would give him a form of immortality better than the one he already had, and would restore his missing body parts, unlike his current regeneration Jutsu. This is really blatant stuff IMO. This really should apply to anyone who'd absorbed/merged with the original Shinju such as Juubi Jin Madara (Post-Shinju absorption), Juubi Jin Obito (Pre-Shinju release), and of course Kaguya. This goes doubly for Kaguya because she also ate a chakra fruit in the past, before fully merging with the God Tree altogether. This is further supported by the fact that both Madara (Post-Shinju absorption) and Kaguya were declared as Immortal. More on the immortality bit in a later section.

But yeah, the main thing is that Kaguya should most definitely scale above Victor's regeneration here, at the very least.

The ETSB debacle:

So, yeah, this scan is causing quite the ruckus. Tbh, I don't even think this is necessary to defend at this point. I genuinely believe I've already sufficiently proven Kaguya having regen already, but still, I'm not a fan of bad argumentation so I'll address this anyway. It can serve as support for her regen value.

Now, I think the most important thing that needs to be addressed first is probably the only decent point that was made in this thread. That point was Damage's question of why it is even assumed that Kaguya would remain in the dimension instead of just......teleporting away to safety. The answer to that is the fact that it's unlikely that the ETSB would keep doing its thing if Kaguya left the dimension. TSBs just kinda stop functioning, or even existing, if their users leave a certain range. I would think that leaving the entire damn time-space in which the TSB is located would certainly qualify for exiting its range, so there's that. This is just logically supported by the fact that Kaguya stuck around and engaged with Naruto and Sasuke in the first place, instead of just getting the hell out of dodge and leaving them to their fates in her root dimension. She had absolutely no reason to stay and risk being sealed if she could just.........get out of there at any point. It's not like Kaguya was particularly hung up on absorbing their chakra at that point either, since she'd already made peace with the idea of killing them instead of risking everything a while back. Her plan was explicitly to kill them with the ETSB at that point. Avoiding getting sealed once again also topped her list of priorities. All in all, the most logical conclusion is that she simply had to stay there for the ETSB to do its thing.

The other argument that was mainly posed here was the fact that Kaguya is immune to the TSB's hax, so we shouldn't assume that she'd be dusted or erased by it. That's fine, but it's also not really why she had her regeneration in the first place either.......
Ya'll are calling an argument stupid without even understanding it to begin with. Now that's funny.
This particular argument was the basis for her Mid-High regen (the High came from the reforming from chakra stuff), and it was put in place essentially to avoid her durability scaling to High 4-C for surviving the destruction of a High 4-C sized realm or a High 4-C attack. Regeneration was deemed as a more logical option, especially because she pretty clearly attributed her survival to her immortality. More on that later.

Now the issue is that Kaguya's ETSB does not have an AP value any longer, but I'm not sure if that matters tbh. She still needs to survive the destruction of an entire realm by a 4-C/High 4-C sized physical object, somehow. We may not be able to quantify the level of damage she'd receive perfectly, but I would think destruction on such a magnitude would still **** her up rather handily, or else why even mention her immortality in the first place? I think that this whole thing just supports the larger points I've been making, and just goes to show that she does indeed have regeneration.

Also to quote @Shadowbokunohero, just to add to my points:
She was planning to fight them while the ETSB expanded and destroyed the dimension, the reason being that this is what we literally see happen. she doesnt care about being caught in the crossfire because its a win win for her, she either absorbs their chakra and wins or one of them gets caught by the ETSB and dies, which prevents them from sealing her. this is why she is bringing up that she is immortal. worse case scenario for her is that she survives because she is immortal.
Click to expand...
Furthermore, the fact of the matter is that Naruto and Sasuke are similarly immune to the effects of the TSB, yet they were still going to be killed by it anyway. So I just don't really think the argument of her being "immune to the hax thus she won't be damaged by the TSB" is very good or convincing IMHO.

Immortality in Naruto:

Okay, so in this section I'll be addressing how immortality is usually treated in Naruto, and how that can relate to and support Kaguya's regeneration.

So the most important thing is to establish these examples that'll help us establish our argument.
1) I want to start with Tsunade's Mitotic Regeneration first. I've already explained how potent it is in an earlier section, but it's worth noting that she's been repeatedly noted to be essentially impossible to kill due to this ability. I don't think she's been specifically referred to as "immortal", but I think "impossible to die by any means" kinda covers that to some extent lol. Now obviously, this only applies so long as Tsunade still has chakra, but that's besides the point.
2) Edo Tensei, who literally don't die no matter what you do to them so long as their souls remain tethered to the physical world, were also referred to as Immortal on a number of occassions.
3) Madara, who was previously capable of healing from having his torso getting partially blown away, only referred to himself as Immortal once he absorbed the God Tree into himself.
4) Victor, who can regenerate from losing his limbs and entire head, says that he needs the fake ass Shinju in order to become Immortal.

Okay, why am I bringing these up? Two reasons.

Reason number one is to prove that Immortality in Naruto quite often includes the ability to regenerate from damage. Now admittedly, there are some examples where this is not necessarily the case, most notably Orochimaru, who needs to change bodies every 3 years. However, his brand of immortality is just unique, as it's just glorified possession that's only meant to extend his lifespan, allowing him to learn all the secrets of existence, which he cannot achieve in a single life-time. It's not quite the same as the other examples, which have context of being impossible to take down in battle due to their regeneration. At the very least this should prove that "regeneration" and "immortality" aren't mutually exclusive terms, they absolutely do overlap in the series, and they do so quite often.

Now, the second reason harkens back to reason number one. The fact that Immortality can often be associated with the inability to be felled in combat through normal means is very pertinent to this discussion when we combine this with the fact that both Madara and Kaguya have directly confirmed that they are essentially impossible to take down due to their immortality specifically. This all but confirms that they possess the "can't be taken down through ordinary means" brand of immortality, and not some random esoteric exception like Orochimaru or Kakuzu. This is even more supported when we look at the overall big picture I've been painting this whole time.
  • Juubi has a form of healing.
  • Kaguya can reform from pure chakra.
  • Madara, who can regenerate from extremely lethal damage, is still only considered Immortal and "impossible to take down" after absorbing the God Tree. (side note, but Madara stating that Night Guy almost killed him is not an anti-feat for either Madara or Kaguya, as Madara only became truly "immortal" after absorbing the Shinju, which also immediately healed all of his previous injuries right away)
  • Kaguya should likely scale above Hashirama's regeneration through lineage alone.
  • Madara and Kaguya should scale above what Victor can do due to him asserting that the Shinju he grew in his backyard can grant him a superior form of immortality compared to what he already had.
  • Kaguya also asserts that her immortality will let her survive anything team 7 or the ETSB can dish out against her.

I'd also like to speak more to the context behind Kaguya's statement. It really has to include regeneration because the implication is very clearly that she can't be killed by Team 7 in any way. This makes sense as these guys only ever tried and aimed to seal her away. This is literally all they ever tried to do. And because I know someone will mention this, yes, Kaguya is stronger than them, but it's not like they were completely incapable of landing attacks and/or damaging her at several junctures. So now I have to appeal to ya'll's common sense. Does this fight, when looked at in context, make any level of sense if Naruto or Kakashi could have just ended it at any point by simply decapitating Kaguya or stabbing her in the heart? Why wouldn't they? Why and how would Madara and Kaguya being immortal and impossible to take down even work if that were the case? Are all of these characters just morons? I think the answers to all of these questions are rather obvious if you've been paying attention and read my post in good faith.

Needless to say, I vehemently disagree with the OP.

Finally, as I said earlier, I'm quite busy these days, so I probably won't be replying much on this thread, not in a particularly swift manner at least. Buuuuuuut I think I've just about said all there is to say, so I don't even know if further responses will be needed. Of course, I'll defend my arguments if need be, but I'm just pointing out that I'll be unable to be quick about it due to IRL restraints, unfortunately.
 
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As I expected, Slayer addressed everything which I was planning on addressing, and even some more that I wasn't even planning on bringing up/didn't have knowledge of.

I agree with Slayer's conclusion, I believe he has pointed out the failings behind KT's argumentation while providing evidence which strengthens his conclusion more so than KT's conclusion.

As we say in the skreets of VSBW, Slayer FRA.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Careful what you wish for, boys.



Well, I have a lot to say, so I'll get to the point. I'd like to preface my post with a couple of things.

1)Frankly, I was really pissed when I first read through this thread. Had I made this response right away, my tone would've been dramatically different, and not for the better. I've since calmed down and decided that my message will come across better if I made my points in a level-headed manner. With that being said, I would still like to express my grievances with this thread. I am profoundly disappointed, and genuinely upset by this thread, the circumstances under which it was made, the manner in which the debate has been conducted, and the intent behind it. To be quite honest, I don't appreciate the overly aggressive manner in which this debate has been conducted, and I honestly put the blame mostly on the OP. Not only is it very haphazardly put together, but it's also unnecessarily confrontational, condescending, and rude in many parts. The same goes for the subsequent response to the counterarguments made, regardless of their merit. It's unbecoming of a staff member, and more importantly, a pillar and role model to much of the community. Our job as staff members and leaders of our respective verses is to try and make sure that the respective fandoms get along well, and move past the stigma of toxicity that has plagued the HST for many years. It's absolutely disastrous if we, of all people, further perpetuate this divide and toxicity. I must also question the peculiar timing of this thread. Kaguya's regeneration has been around for years at this point, but it's conveniently come to the attention of all the One Piece fandom as an issue worth addressing right when the Law vs Kaguya thread was reaching its breaking point. I'm not one to accuse people of making spite threads, but ya'll's tones and the way you've been conducting yourselves really isn't helping your case here. VS battles get heated, that's fine, and I don't care. It's when ya'll start messing with my profiles that I start to take issue. I have issues with this thread based on its own merit and argumentations, and I'll get to them below. However, I still felt the need to air out my frustrations first. The verse is, as you all know, under heavy revisions currently; revisions for which I am almost singlehandedly responsible. Threads like this just take away from my time that could be spent revising the profiles, and hey, that's another reason why I'm a bit salty lol. Like, the Juubi Jinchuriki's Regeneration in particular was a topic I had been planning to revise in my own time, but now I'll be forced to rush out my arguments here. Now, no rules were violated here. Everyone has a right to revise the profiles if they feel something in them is wrong or can be improved upon. That's fine. I just wish I had been consulted, that's all. Overall, yeah, whatever. Nothing illegal is taking place here. I'm just sincerely disappointed and upset, and I had to put that out there. To quote Kratos, 'We must be better'. I'm not even gonna claim that the other side did nothing wrong, they probably have, but that shouldn't matter. We have an obligation and responsibility to be above all that shit. I urge ya'll to not resort to knee jerk reactions when you read this and actually attempt to understand what it is I'm really saying here. Ya'll can feel free to ignore this rant if you want.
2) I'm extremely busy IRL, so I might not be able to respond in a super swift manner. I'll try to make this post relatively comprehensive to make up for this, though. I won't have to respond much if I already say most, if not all, there is to say.

Time to get to business, I guess....

The OP has brought up many things, so to address each thing I'll have to break up this response into multiple sub-sections.

"Kaguya has no Regeneration":

Yes........Yes, she does.
It's so funny how this sensationalist, generalized claim was inadvertently debunked later on by Damage when he brought up that she regenerated her arm. So she, in fact, does have Regeneration. This is why we don't make big swooping claims, unless we can back them up.

Anyway, the main feat that should be looked at here is this right here. Juubi form Kaguya momentarily morphs into its original state as a mass of chakra, and out of that chakra, Kaguya reforms her physical body. In other words, she reforms her body that was reduced to raw Chakra. In case any of you aren't aware, Bijuu are in essence masses of raw chakra that were given physical form by Hagoromo. They've been shown many times to be fundamentally raw chakra, and can exist in those states. I'm only bringing this up to show that Kaguya existing and being comprised of pure chakra, and then reforming her body from said chakra, is very consistent with her physiology as a literal Bijuu, in this case the Ten-Tails.

The idea that this was a "transformation" is quite frankly asinine. We've seen Bijuu transformations many, many times in the series, and it is never, ever, like this. It's always either a relatively instantaneous affair, or a slightly gradual one, depending on which showing you choose to look at. In both cases, it never matches what we see Kaguya do here. Furthermore, we've never seen any Bijuu willingly turn into pure chakra, and then transform back into their physical form. It's not an ability they have, nor is it something they have shown at any stage in the series. Their true forms are indeed pure chakra, as I've shown, but they don't have the ability to willingly change their forms in that way. There's also the fact that Kaguya didn't willingly transform here. Naruto's Bijuu Rasenshurikens ****** with the Bijuu inside her and caused her to take on this unstable form, without her willing or controlling it. She then was reduced to that chakra state, and willed her body back into its original state.

The simplest possible interpretation we can gleam purely from what we see, as per Occam's Razor, is that Kaguya was reduced to pure chakra, and reformed her body from it. This is textbook regeneration if I've ever seen any. "Character X was reduced to something, character X reforms their body to its normal state from said something". In my eyes, it's exceedingly simple. Any further interpretations require weird assumptions that simply can't be supported by anything from the series itself. The burden of proof is on ya'll to assert a claim that requires us to make further assumptions beyond the most obvious thing we literally see in front of us.

Now, I'm still unsure what reforming your body from pure energy is supposed to give you as a baseline, but it's either Mid-High or High IIRC, so Kaguya should have that for now. There's potentially more we can go for, but I'm saving that for another time.

Also, I find it ironic that all ya'll OP fans are taking issue with this feat when 90% of Logia regeneration is literally the same as this, but I digress. Like deadass, all of that stuff is based on these goobers transforming into an element and reforming their bodies from it. I don't even disagree with how that's handled, it's just the double standards that infuriate me.. So to this argument, I have one thing to say in the words of the Smartest Man Alive.

"The Juubi has no Regeneration":

Ehhhhhh????????????????????????????????? I've seen this claim being floated around, and it's just wrong lol.

It had two of its arms/tails cut off, and it grew them back later on. Admittedly, this was not instantaneous, but that's besides the point.

It scorched itself, and was fine later.

It can detach large portions of itself, and still look pretty whole later on. Could also point towards its fission beings for the same thing.

It can survive having its insides blown up for god's sake......

The Juubi clearly has a pretty interesting physiology, but in any case, bringing up its regen or lack thereof is pretty irrelevant to the discussion as there's no reason for us to limit Kaguya's capabilities based on what the incomplete Juubi could or could not do. But in any case, I've shown that it clearly has a sort of healing factor, so yeah.

Why Hashirama's cells are irrelevant:

A big claim in the OP is that Madara and Obito's regeneration feats come from their pre-existing regeneration, stemming from them having Hashirama cells implants, being enhanced by the Juubi. This is.......quite baseless.

The OP has failed to provide a single piece of evidence for that being the case. Not a reference, not a scan, not a quote, nothing. I mean, am I just supposed to take your word on that? Where's the proof? We can't just make interpretations based on nothing and then pass them off as facts. Now, I have tried to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, and attempted looking through the manga and Databook to see if this came from anywhere. So far I have found absolutely nothing that points to this being the case. It's possible that I missed something, but it's also not my job to comb through everything and prove the OP's points for them. It's the OP's responsibility to provide that evidence, not mine. As such, I'll be moving forward with the conclusion that this claim has no factual basis in the manga until proof to the contrary is presented.

With that out of the way, there's more I have to say regarding this point to further invalidate it.

Let's start with the basics, with Hashirama himself. Now, Hashirama doesn't actually have any regeneration feats in the manga, as we didn't see a single full fight of his from when he was alive, it was always just snippets here and there. What we do know is that he had a very potent healing factor, which was stated to be equal or superior to Tsunade's as stated by both Madara and Tsunade herself. Tsunade's Mitotic Regeneration allows her to regenerate lost tissue, organs and limbs (also reiterated in the Databook, in even more blatant detail). Tsunade can also survive being literally shredded by Mabui's Transmission Jutsu. We've seen her easily heal being stabbed, gutted and bisected, among other things, so yeah it's pretty good stuff.

The issue is that Hashirama cells implants don't really live up to any of this. It gives a healing factor, yes, but it's actually very minor. It can't heal the loss of major organs or limbs. We've seen Obito lose his arm, and never regenerate it. Same thing happened to Madara. Obito got stabbed through the heart, and couldn't heal it........until he absorbed the Juubi. Now, guys with Hashirama cells can easily reattach limbs and whatnot, but that only gets you High-Low regen at most, so it really isn't all that great.

Now, yes, Madara currently has Low-Mid regen scaling to Hashirama, but as I've said before......the profiles are under revision and this is something that I was meaning to change, along with giving Hashirama and Tsunade a regen upgrade, but that's a story for a different thread altogether.

Anyway, as you can all see, Hashirama cells really are just completely irrelevant to what Juubi Jinchuriki can do. They're not even in the same ballpark. Obito can regenerate like half his body easily. Madara can do similar stuff as well. So without proof that this is some super enhanced version of what they already had, and not just its own thing, I don't see why we shouldn't treat this as its own thing provided to them via virtue of being Juubi Jins.

Another interesting tidbit ya'll might wanna keep in mind is that Hashirama's regeneration, and the Uzumaki clan's for that matter, comes directly from Hagoromo, as Hashirama's traits were a consequence of him being a descendant and reincarnate of Asura Otsutsuki, who had those same traits due to inheriting Hagoromo's "body" and vitality. Guess where Hagoromo inherited his shit from? Yeah.....
And before anyone mentions this not making sense since no other Otsutsuki seems to have these abilities, I mean, sure. The problem with that is that Kaguya really isn't your average Otsutsuki at that point. She'd merged with the Shinju/Juubi, and became a completely different being. She also consumed a chakra fruit, the relevance of which I'll explain in a coming section. But, yeah, people like Asura, Hagoromo, and by extension Kaguya scaling above Hashirama's regeneration makes perfect sense when we look at the context.

Addressing Kaguya's "anti-feats":

A lot has been made of Kaguya "failing" to regenerate from the damage inflicted upon her by Naruto and Kakashi. It's nonsense, and I'll explain why.

Let's start with the argument that she didn't regenerate instantly from the damage, which is pretty much this thread's main crutch for "debunking" the idea that she's got Regen. So there's a few reasons why this doesn't work.

1) It not being instantaneous literally means absolutely fuckall. Like, seriously. Look no further than Obito, who you asserted does indeed have Regeneration, healing the damage he took in chapter 596 during chapter 601. Does this mean Obito has no regeneration? Another example is Madara, who you also asserted has regen, healing the damage he received from Shukaku a chapter earlier. Does Madara not have regeneration now? Hell, let's look at this instance of Sakura not healing her burning arm. Does she not have regen either? The obvious answer is that they do. Regen not being instantaneous is not proof of it not existing, it just means it's not instantaneous......
2) To further add to my first point, it's also important to realize that while regeneration can be instantaneous and fast as we've seen in numerous instances, it's not like the characters can't control it. They can clearly "choose" or "control" when to regenerate, or when to not regenerate. Now why would they do that? Because regeneration is a taxing technique that takes up chakra, that's why. In the aforementioned Sakura example, she specifically chose not to heal her wounds because she wanted to not waste any chakra as she wanted to give it all to Obito at the time. We even saw the same thing with Tsunade earlier, who chose not heal herself in order to preserve her chakra to heal the Gokage. And Juubi Madara not immediately regenerating his lower half, despite earlier showing fast acting healing after Guy blew away half his torso. These aren't anti-feats, it's just these characters having control and agency over their bodies, as well as their healing factors.
3) Now this is relevant for Kaguya because at the time that Kaguya was injured by Naruto, she was extremely low on chakra. Why "extremely"? Well, because the statement I shared just now was uttered by Zetsu even before Kaguya shifted everyone to the Root dimension. This is relevant because her ability to switch worlds is stated to take up an enormous amount of chakra. So she was pretty low to begin with, then she used an extremely draining technique. Naruto injured her shortly after she switched worlds, and it should be noted that she was fighting Sasuke in the interim before and after Naruto cut off her arm. So she really had no time to recover her chakra AT ALL. If we look at the sequence of events genuinely and with the most basic degree of reading comprehension, we'll see the answer punching us in the groin. Like, it's really not that hard to see that Kaguya miraculously regenerated her arm and her entire body for that matter only after she replenished her chakra by absorbing chakra from the IT. It is exceedingly simple and obvious.
4) The Kakashi example suffers from a similar issue. It all kinda went down extremely quickly, as Kaguya was more focused on avoiding NaruSasu sealing her away, and it all went down within a relatively short timeframe. It's really not the end all be all proof that conclusively proves her lack of regen, lol. Plus, it's not unlikely that she was saving her chakra in case she needed to perform another world switch, but Sakura clobbered her before she could do anything.
5) A very overlooked aspect of this that's very often forgotten is the fact that Naruto actually has the ability to slow down regeneration. I don't even think this argument is necessary at this point, but it just goes to show just how many holes can be poked in this logic. And before anyone goes with the classic "tHiS iS oNlY fOr HiS rAsEnGaN", just do me a favor and prove it. You can't, because Kabuto makes zero mention of a Rasengan, even though he's fully aware of everything that happened and is intimately familiar with the Rasengan in particular. It's also not a question of AP, as Edo Tensei have been obliterated by superior AP many a time, and never really had trouble regenerating. So the only logical conclusion is that KCM Naruto has some unknown property that allows him to slow down regeneration to an extent, which would apply to SPSM Naruto as well since he's also using a Kurama chakra cloak.

The Shinju, and the Regeneration technique:

fun-this-is-where-the-fun-begins.gif

Anyone who knows me knew this part was coming.

So, let's set the stage. There's this guy from Boruto called Victor, mkay? He's a Kara inner, but honestly who cares who he is? What matters is that he has a pretty powerful regeneration ability. This ability is probably the same as Boro's (who can regenerate his entire upper body including his head), since both have access to the same technology and everything, and both have been augmented by Amado, but that's irrelevant to this point at large since Victor has his own feats. Long story short, his regen is good enough to regrow his severed head.

The reason this is relevant is because Victor considers his regeneration imperfect. This was reiterated by Orochimaru (Boruto episode 175) as well as Amado (in episode 179), who went as far as to say that even if he outfitted him with more cybernetic enhancements, it wouldn't matter because his body is still breaking down and failing. Victor's response to this dilemma was to grow a mini Shinju tree in his back office using recovered fragments from the real God Tree. He believed that eating the chakra fruit from this knockoff Shinju would give him a form of immortality better than the one he already had, and would restore his missing body parts, unlike his current regeneration Jutsu. This is really blatant stuff IMO. This really should apply to anyone who'd absorbed/merged with the original Shinju such as Juubi Jin Madara (Post-Shinju absorption), Juubi Jin Obito (Pre-Shinju release), and of course Kaguya. This goes doubly for Kaguya because she also ate a chakra fruit in the past, before fully merging with the God Tree altogether. This is further supported by the fact that both Madara (Post-Shinju absorption) and Kaguya were declared as Immortal. More on the immortality bit in a later section.

But yeah, the main thing is that Kaguya should most definitely scale above Victor's regeneration here, at the very least.

The ETSB debacle:

So, yeah, this scan is causing quite the ruckus. Tbh, I don't even think this is necessary to defend at this point. I genuinely believe I've already sufficiently proven Kaguya having regen already, but still, I'm not a fan of bad argumentation so I'll address this anyway. It can serve as support for her regen value.

Now, I think the most important thing that needs to be addressed first is probably the only decent point that was made in this thread. That point was Damage's question of why it is even assumed that Kaguya would remain in the dimension instead of just......teleporting away to safety. The answer to that is the fact that it's unlikely that the ETSB would keep doing its thing if Kaguya left the dimension. TSBs just kinda stop functioning, or even existing, if their users leave a certain range. I would think that leaving the entire damn time-space in which the TSB is located would certainly qualify for exiting its range, so there's that. This is just logically supported by the fact that Kaguya stuck around and engaged with Naruto and Sasuke in the first place, instead of just getting the hell out of dodge and leaving them to their fates in her root dimension. She had absolutely no reason to stay and risk being sealed if she could just.........get out of there at any point. It's not like Kaguya was particularly hung up on absorbing their chakra at that point either, since she'd already made peace with the idea of killing them instead of risking everything a while back. Her plan was explicitly to kill them with the ETSB at that point. Avoiding getting sealed once again also topped her list of priorities. All in all, the most logical conclusion is that she simply had to stay there for the ETSB to do its thing.

The other argument that was mainly posed here was the fact that Kaguya is immune to the TSB's hax, so we shouldn't assume that she'd be dusted or erased by it. That's fine, but it's also not really why she had her regeneration in the first place either.......
Ya'll are calling an argument stupid without even understanding it to begin with. Now that's funny.
This particular argument was the basis for her Mid-High regen (the High came from the reforming from chakra stuff), and it was put in place essentially to avoid her durability scaling to High 4-C for surviving the destruction of a High 4-C sized realm or a High 4-C attack. Regeneration was deemed as a more logical option, especially because she pretty clearly attributed her survival to her immortality. More on that later.

Now the issue is that Kaguya's ETSB does not have an AP value any longer, but I'm not sure if that matters tbh. She still needs to survive the destruction of an entire realm by a 4-C/High 4-C sized physical object, somehow. We may not be able to quantify the level of damage she'd receive perfectly, but I would think destruction on such a magnitude would still **** her up rather handily, or else why even mention her immortality in the first place? I think that this whole thing just supports the larger points I've been making, and just goes to show that she does indeed have regeneration.

Also to quote @Shadowbokunohero, just to add to my points:

Furthermore, the fact of the matter is that Naruto and Sasuke are similarly immune to the effects of the TSB, yet they were still going to be killed by it anyway. So I just don't really think the argument of her being "immune to the hax thus she won't be damaged by the TSB" is very good or convincing IMHO.

Immortality in Naruto:

Okay, so in this section I'll be addressing how immortality is usually treated in Naruto, and how that can relate to and support Kaguya's regeneration.

So the most important thing is to establish these examples that'll help us establish our argument.
1) I want to start with Tsunade's Mitotic Regeneration first. I've already explained how potent it is in an earlier section, but it's worth noting that she's been repeatedly noted to be essentially impossible to kill due to this ability. I don't think she's been specifically referred to as "immortal", but I think "impossible to die by any means" kinda covers that to some extent lol. Now obviously, this only applies so long as Tsunade still has chakra, but that's besides the point.
2) Edo Tensei, who literally don't die no matter what you do to them so long as their souls remain tethered to the physical world, were also referred to as Immortal on a number of occassions.
3) Madara, who was previously capable of healing from having his torso getting partially blown away, only referred to himself as Immortal once he absorbed the God Tree into himself.
4) Victor, who can regenerate from losing his limbs and entire head, says that he needs the fake ass Shinju in order to become Immortal.

Okay, why am I bringing these up? Two reasons.

Reason number one is to prove that Immortality in Naruto quite often includes the ability to regenerate from damage. Now admittedly, there are some examples where this is not necessarily the case, most notably Orochimaru, who needs to change bodies every 3 years. However, his brand of immortality is just unique, as it's just glorified possession that's only meant to extend his lifespan, allowing him to learn all the secrets of existence, which he cannot achieve in a single life-time. It's not quite the same as the other examples, which have context of being impossible to take down in battle due to their regeneration. At the very least this should prove that "regeneration" and "immortality" aren't mutually exclusive terms, they absolutely do overlap in the series, and they do so quite often.

Now, the second reason harkens back to reason number one. The fact that Immortality can often be associated with the inability to be felled in combat through normal means is very pertinent to this discussion when we combine this with the fact that both Madara and Kaguya have directly confirmed that they are essentially impossible to take down due to their immortality specifically. This all but confirms that they possess the "can't be taken down through ordinary means" brand of immortality, and not some random esoteric exception like Orochimaru or Kakuzu. This is even more supported when we look at the overall big picture I've been painting this whole time.
  • Juubi has a form of healing.
  • Kaguya can reform from pure chakra.
  • Madara, who can regenerate from extremely lethal damage, is still only considered Immortal and "impossible to take down" after absorbing the God Tree. (side note, but Madara stating that Night Guy almost killed him is not an anti-feat for either Madara or Kaguya, as Madara only became truly "immortal" after absorbing the Shinju, which also immediately healed all of his previous injuries right away)
  • Kaguya should likely scale above Hashirama's regeneration through lineage alone.
  • Madara and Kaguya should scale above what Victor can do due to him asserting that the Shinju he grew in his backyard can grant him a superior form of immortality compared to what he already had.
  • Kaguya also asserts that her immortality will let her survive anything team 7 or the ETSB can dish out against her.

I'd also like to speak more to the context behind Kaguya's statement. It really has to include regeneration because the implication is very clearly that she can't be killed by Team 7 in any way. This makes sense as these guys only ever tried and aimed to seal her away. This is literally all they ever tried to do. And because I know someone will mention this, yes, Kaguya is stronger than them, but it's not like they were completely incapable of landing attacks and/or damaging her at several junctures. So now I have to appeal to ya'll's common sense. Does this fight, when looked at in context, make any level of sense if Naruto or Kakashi could have just ended it at any point by simply decapitating Kaguya or stabbing her in the heart? Why wouldn't they? Why and how would Madara and Kaguya being immortal and impossible to take down even work if that were the case? Are all of these characters just morons? I think the answers to all of these questions are rather obvious if you've been paying attention and read my post in good faith.

Needless to say, I vehemently disagree with the OP.

Finally, as I said earlier, I'm quite busy these days, so I probably won't be replying much on this thread, not in a particularly swift manner at least. Buuuuuuut I think I've just about said all there is to say, so I don't even know if further responses will be needed. Of course, I'll defend my arguments if need be, but I'm just pointing out that I'll be unable to be quick about it due to IRL restraints, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Slayer using Boruto for arguments?! Expected better from a non-Boruto enjoyer like you...
 
Kachon123 said:
Can yall stop being cryptic and elaborate on what you mean when you disagree?

Like I shit you not, I've seen like 5 people disagree and simply say "I will comment later on why I disagree," "You're wrong," and "No," and just refuse to expand on their thoughts. It's weird as hell and makes you seem unserious.
Click to expand...
Forum debaters finding out people have priorities outside of debating

011
 
Slayer has me convinced atm. He's right when he says the regen doesn't have to be instantaneous, that just means it isn't passive. Also, to support his immortality point, by definition immortality does not inherently mean forever life, it can also just refer to exemptions from death, aka that which is offered by being able to regenerate your entire body like Kaguya does.
 
I'm not sure, Kaguya reforming from Chakra seems more like Body Control and Energy Manipulation than a regeneration feat, since it has to be consciously activated.

If Kaguya is killed or injured in such a way that she is unable to use the ability to transform, she won't be able to rebuild herself.

This is not something I would call Regeneration, which has to be passive.
 
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Godernet said:
Slayer's arguments seem to pretty soundly go over why KT's arguments for Kaguya not having don't work.

Slayer FRA.
Click to expand...
Ofc bro would agree with Slayer. You never wanted the downgrades anyways😆

That being said, I have to agree with Slayer as well as I don't want Narutoverse to be downgraded by a One Piece fan. I'm never going to tolerate such disrespect. I still hate you, Slayer, for agreeing to downgrade baby girl Hinata😔
 
I disagree with some of Slayers points, disagree with some points thought not enough for me to outright disagree. I'm not getting involved though because I was about to say something that would have started some unneeded hostility towards Slayer from me.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I disagree with some of Slayers points, disagree with some points thought not enough for me to outright disagree. I'm not getting involved though because I was about to say something that would have started some unneeded hostility towards Slayer from me.
Click to expand...
So are you neutral to the thread? I'm a bit confused as to where your stance is, it appears somewhat neutral.
 
holy thread
9ppl agree including the OP is 10
10 disagree
might be the tightest thing I've ever seen on vsbw
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
So are you neutral to the thread? I'm a bit confused as to where your stance is, it appears somewhat neutral.
Click to expand...
I agree Kaguya has regeneration, leaning towards agreeing with Slayer (even though I find some of his points irrelevent as hell) as well but I'm neutral on what level of regeneration she has.

Though I'm not sure anyone had addressed Kaguya having the same bone physiology as Kimimaro, who has regeneration from this ability to pull out and regenerate his bones. He could even pull out his spine and regenerate it, extend his bones throughout his entire body, fire our the bones in his fingers and so on. His clan gets this ability from Kaguya (minus the deconstruction) and we've seen Kaguya project her bones out so this means she's regenerating her bones and the holes they would leave in her. This would be futher support regarding her regeneration capabilities at minimum, though she'd scale to better stuff.
 
What the hell, that Kaguya vs Law thread started this?

Anyways. Slayer convinced me, and I disagree with the OP. Not sure about using Boruto's anime canon stuff for scaling Shippuden Manga though (IIRC Victor's regeneration feats only exists in Boruto anime canon).
 
Slayer is a far nicer person than me, I haven't been able to reply much of anything this past week because of work. So slayer taking the time out of his own irl busy day to create such a comprehensive thread is commendable. Unfortunately for him. His wrong, there isn't a single mention of Konan in this response so it has to be wrong. Joking aside I obviously agree with most of slayers points given we talked about it before off site, and the stuff we don't agree on are bordering on semantics. So FRA
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Anyway, the main feat that should be looked at here is this right here. Juubi form Kaguya momentarily morphs into its original state as a mass of chakra, and out of that chakra, Kaguya reforms her physical body. In other words, she reforms her body that was reduced to raw Chakra. In case any of you aren't aware, Bijuu are in essence masses of raw chakra that were given physical form by Hagoromo. They've been shown many times to be fundamentally raw chakra, and can exist in those states. I'm only bringing this up to show that Kaguya existing and being comprised of pure chakra, and then reforming her body from said chakra, is very consistent with her physiology as a literal Bijuu, in this case the Ten-Tails.
Click to expand...
wdym "raw chakra" ,as far as I remember, naruto is the only one can call out his bijuu as pure chakra,what I mean is, couldnt that just be kaguya reform through her physical bijuu form?
or this could just me being dump, sry in that case

aside from that, yea, slayer has point out quite a few regen feat outside from the OP original debunk ( though I still have no idea what level of regen is she)
 
eibwen said:
wdym "raw chakra" ,as far as I remember, naruto is the only one can call out his bijuu as pure chakra,what I mean is, couldnt that just be kaguya reform through her physical bijuu form?
or this could just me being dump, sry in that case

aside from that, yea, slayer has point out quite a few regen feat outside from the OP original debunk ( though I still have no idea what level of regen is she)
Click to expand...
No... all the bijuu are just raw masses of chakra, that's stated and accepted
 
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