Naruto and Sasuke vs Ichigo and Aizen

[FinalBattleX01]

@Lord

Im pretty sure Yama let himself get stabbed so he could restrain Aizen and make 100% he could kill him as opposed to a convoluted fight where he only vaguely knows where he is by sensing his sword's position. Then again I dont think either of us can know for sure what his plans were, all we know for sure is that he could sense the blade's Reiatsu. Whether he had to be stabbed to do so is up for debate.

Well, I mean in that very chapter Aizen himself stated that KS could control the five senses, not once mentioning that it could mess with their Reiatsu sensing capabilities. Furthermore, when Yama revealed that he could sense the blade's Reiatsu, Aizen wasn't shocked at all implying that he perhaps knew of KS's shortcoming. Or maybe the other Captains just weren't as good sensors as Yama. Meh, not that it would really matter in this fight seeing as Naruto has negative emotion sensing which KS could definitely not mess with.

Remember, Aizen can no longer fully control what KS shows so there is actually a fair chance that he would show something out of place.

 

[PaChi2]

I agree with FinalBattle. Naruto at least should be able to sense Aizen since his sensing was capable of tracking the Limbo Clones (which are from another dimension, which is higher sensing than simple 5 sense illusion or Reiatsu/Chakra sensing) so even if KS does affect him, he should be able to sense Aizen and Ichigo. Also, Naruto and Sasuke's teamwork outclasses Ichigo and Aizen's.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yama said he wouldn't fail to recognise the reiatsu of a zanpakuto's reiatsu which pierced his abdome. implying that it messed with his ability to sense reiatsu normally. which it does, as the scan I posted above proves they use more then five senses while fighting, yet couldn't do a thing to Aizen.

A reason for not mentioning the reiatsu sensing thing would be because it's just so second handed to them to use, that it's redundant to note it. Lille also implies that it's a rookie mistake for him to not notice Shunsui.

You can't really overlook this, otherwise Aizen and Shinjis Zanpakuto is going to do absolutely nothing to no one.

Aizen can't control what KS shows properly..??..huh? I'll take a shot in the dark and say you're assuming this due to Ichigo (Aizen's arm) missing when he attacked Yhwach before he got impaled.

Aizen made it look like he had used Kyoka suigetsu to have Ichigo appear as Renji, but put in some flaws to make this standout to Yhwach. (Zabimaru's pieces falling off him, the missing arm,etc.) To emphasize this Yhwach even notes that Kyoka Suigetsus effect has been used in this fight, but thinks that it doesn't work on him. Notice the "as you have clearly seen" part.

 

[PaChi2]

just pointing out, but if Aizen doesnt know how Naruto's sensing works he shouldnt be able to mess with it on purpose, imo.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@ Lord

So what? When you get stabbed you suddenly get the ability to sense Reiatsu better? Or is it perhaps a distance thing? Like if you are very close to the blade you can sense it? The way I interpret that scene is that Yama grabbed Aizen's hand but Aizen claimed it was an illusory hand, but Yama was able to correctly predict the real position of the blade (in his abdomen) as proof that it is the real Aizen he's holding.

That doesnt make sense then, it isnt more second handed than sight or hearing or touch, and yet he went through the trouble of saying "5 senses". Not just "senses" or something...

Or maybe, what I think is the most reasonable assumption, it simply has to do with the skill of the sensor. Also what does Shinji's ability have to do with this? It inverses all sensory inputs so logically enemies could still sense him but they would (e.g.) sense him to the left when he would really be to the right.

No no no, im not talking about that. Im talking about Aizen saying: "So you think you're gazing at Kurosaki Ichigo... fascinating..." after he got impaled. This clearly shows that Aizen had no idea what illusion Yhwach was seeing at the moment, implying that he doesnt have perfect control over them any more.

 

[LordAizenSama]

How you guys wanna interpret whether it works on Naruto/Sasuke is upto the people here, just saiyan that it does affect more then 5 senses is all

 

[LlamaGod1411]

Lolzen + LolKS wins it for the team.

Where is Planet level Ichigo coming from though? Naruto/Sauce still would take him apart in a 1v1.

 

[Riptide240]

Lolzen + LolKS wins it for the team.
Where is Planet level Ichigo coming from though? Naruto/Sauce still would take him apart in a 1v1.

He is most likely planet level because when he pulled off that Moon+ level feat he was using just his bankai in a very depowered form. Compare this to when he first used Bankai with his merged hollow form stacked on top of it and he hadn't had his powers drained yet and Yhwach with the Soul King's powers even deemed it too dangerous to let him even try to use it. And tbh, they'd only beat Ichigo by hax, which Ichigo has fought against before, but they're not beating him in melee combat at all

 

[HalfAsianFan]

Lolzen + LolKS wins it for the team.
Where is Planet level Ichigo coming from though? Naruto/Sauce still would take him apart in a 1v1.

Naruto/Sauce vs Ichigo threads would beg to differ with speed unequal.

 

[Riptide240]

@FinalBattle, whether or not that's the case just consider this: it worked against someone who can see and rewrite all possible futures even when he knew it was being used against him. Most, if not all, captain level fighters in Bleach can sense Reiatsu, but Aizen still managed to solo about 5 at once without anyone noticing. People seem to forget that he's also a master at Reiatsu control. He can hide it and mess with that "sixth sense" in his illusions too. If not, how could he fool the God tier in this show into thinking he was 3 people at once without him sensing his distinct energy? It's not an argument, I'm just showing what happened

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@ Riptide

As the argument that was being constantly made in the Yhwach vs Kaguya thread goes, it doesnt matter if he can rewrite futures, this happened in the past. His powers are irrelevant to its removal. Well, we know for a fact that Yama could sense it, so I'm basing my argument around the fact that it simply depends on the strength of the sensor, and Naruto's sensing abilities while in So6P mode are far beyond anything shown by these characters (iirc). Yhwach has never displayed any incredible sensing abilities and the fact that he is a God Tier doesnt say much as AP is irrelevant to mind resistance. Hell, Lille Barro, one of Yhwach's elite guards was tricked by Shunsui's simple reiatsu clone thing cuz he wasn't paying attention. Yhwach, in all his arrogance and perceived omniscience seems just like the type to not pay attention either (which is further evidenced by the fact that even after the illusion ended, he didnt notice Ichigo about to stab him in the back even though his Reiatsu is a literal beacon). That really doesn't inspire confidence in their sensing abilities...

Anyways, I really dont care about arguing this stuff anymore, its not like this thread will be posted anywhere anyway...

 

[Riptide240]

Forget Yhwach for a second, all the captains put together still couldn't sense him while he was loling them with KS. The reason why Yama said he could sense his reiatsu was because Aizen wasn't trying to fool him then. He actually shanked him therefore Yama could tell it was his energy. When he was free he could've easliy trolled him just as bad as everyone else, but figured that Ryujin Jakka needed to be dealt with regardless.

Edit: as a matter of fact he did troll him. He fooled him with an illusion for the first strike then stabbed him

 

[Perilouss]

Never really understood what the confusion about KS is always, it's abilities have been made pretty obvious throughout the series.

On that topic, naruto and sasuke likely won't even know they are under KS for quite some time. I mean how many times have you heard aizen say "So you were under the impression that ......? Fascinating" while the victim is like lol wtf just happened.

 

[Riptide240]

whatever tho, idc. Aizen is my favorite anime character anyways even tho I love Naruto and Sasuke. But he's way smarter than them combined and has more experince.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Aizen has shown better use of telepathy than Sasuke I must say. The way he put Yhwach under KS was very impressive

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@Riptide wait, what? The captains cant pool their mental energies together and become better sensors or something. The fact that there were multiple captains changes nothing. Actually Aizen DID try to troll Yama even after he shanked him. Yama grabbed his arm was like "I got you now" (or something to that effect), and Aizen still tried to convince him his arm was an illusion. Anyways, I've already explained my thoughts on the Yama situation to LordAizenSama, just read my replies to him.

@Perilouss The thing is we still dont know exactly how effective KS would be on Naruto and Sasuke what with their various sensory abilities and illusion resistances. Naruto at the very least would instantly know something was up thanks to his Negative Emotion Sensing. I could probably even argue that Sasuke's sharingan would help him quickly figure out the miniscule innaccuracies in Aizen's illusions.

@Faisal Eh, Sasuke did no-sell the Infinite Tsukuyomi which is pretty damn impressive. But what Aizen did to Yhwach was pretty badass...

I love how I said I wouldnt argue about this anymore...

 

[LlamaGod1411]

@HalfAsian

Go through what the OP Said.


Speed Equal.

Not even sure why you want to bring up a Scenario which is not mentioned by the OP.

 

[HalfAsianFan]

@LlamaGod1411 I was just pointing out that Naruto/Sasuke vs Ichigo threads with unequal speeds lean towards Ichigo, a 1v1 vs Ichigo wasn't mentioned by the OP either so it's not like I was ignoring the rules or something.

 

[Perilouss]

It took Naruto + Sasuke + Kakashi + Sakura to defeat Kaguya once and seal her.

It only took Ichigo + Aizen to defeat Yhwach once (before he revived through the future).

And since Yhwach is atleast on the same tier as Kaguya, I think it's pretty obvious who wins this now.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

^ are you for real? Are you actually using that as an argument or are you being sarcastic?

 

[HST_Master]

Ichigo and Aizen even though it was bootleg it's still a efective combo Aizen could make protections for his and Ichigo's blind spots and use his illusionary powers(Kyoka Suigetsu disintigrated remember everyone?) to distract them because unlike genjutsu his hypnosis is absolute and can't be broken unless he wants to giving them the chance to pick them off with their strongest attacks (Jujisho Gran Rey and Hado in the 90s) Or better yet pull a Zamasu and Hidan and do a bunch of sacrifical attacks with Ichigo

 

[UzumakiKurisu]

Aizen has shown better use of telepathy than Sasuke I must say. The way he put Yhwach under KS was very impressive

Didn't he put him under KS before he had the Almighty? If so, then it's not that impressive...

 

[Riptide240]

But he did it without saying or doing anything. He merged with KS and Yhwach didn't even know what hit him. What IS impressive is that even with the Soul King's power and the Almighty, he still fell for the illusions despite knowing it was being used. Plus, even if Aizen used KS when he had the Almighty, it still would've worked since u just have to look at him now.

 

[Phantasys]

Nardo and Sauce get stomped.

 

[HalfAsianFan]

I'm actually going to stay on Ichigo and Aizen's side here, because even if they can work past KS it'll still take they'll still have a few moments of confusion when they realize something's dodgy; it's not like Naruto's instantly going to detect Aizen's emotions, realize what's wrong, and attack that the moment KS hits him. In these relatively little moments of confusion, there's nothing stopping Ichigo from giving them a couple of swings, each hit buying him more time to hit them while they try to work out what's going on.

 

[RemnantOfTheAkatsuki]

Naruto and Sasuke. Together they are at least Large Planet+. Sasuke has pretty much a planet level genjutsu in his eyes. Naruto can heal both of them any time he pleases. It's pretty bad tbh..

 

[AizenSadnessGod]

i don't see why genjutsu works,because even infinite tsukyumi didnt work on edo tenseis,aizen is dead person too

 

[RemnantOfTheAkatsuki]

^ Reanimations are different from Actual dead people. They arent even souls, did you see how they were made? It's the clay that came from white zetsu, so ofc it would work. But as far as souls or chakra yes it works.

 

[HalfAsianFan]

Naruto and Sasuke. Together they are at least Large Planet+. Sasuke has pretty much a planet level genjutsu in his eyes. Naruto can heal both of them any time he pleases. It's pretty bad tbh..

There's little to go on in your argument. What does being Large Planet+ tier 'together' even mean, and why are they? What about the hax from the opposite team? Genjutsu is hax, so how can it have a tier?

 

[Akiretsu]

Genjutsu works on the dead. For some reason, only IT doesn't.

You dont believe me?:

-Kabuto Genjutsued Itachi

-Shisui Koto Amatsukami worked on Itachi

-Sasuke genjutsued Itachi

 

[RemnantOfTheAkatsuki]

I said planet level genjutsu because his eyes were compared to the same eyes that were able to effect a planet, which is why I said that also, Large Planet obvouisly is a referernce to their destructive capacities. JESUS IF YOU DON'T WATCH/READ BOTH ANIME/MANGA. DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

The Jutsu is only planet level in range and only usable if the moon is out and brought closer as Madara said. "Lol IT" isn't really feasible.

 

[RemnantOfTheAkatsuki]

^ It isnt for destructive uses such as Aizen's KS. Does Aizen's KS actually destroy anything? No. It depends on the ability and it's use.

 

[AizenSadnessGod]

I said planet level genjutsu because his eyes were compared to the same eyes that were able to effect a planet, which is why I said that also, Large Planet obvouisly is a referernce to their destructive capacities. JESUS IF YOU DON'T WATCH/READ BOTH ANIME/MANGA. DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

genjutsu works on chakra flow reiatsu isnt similar to this chakra system,also yes edo tenseis are dead,aizen is complete this one,and even a soul so dont see how it works

 

[HalfAsianFan]

@Remnant You say that making an assumption that I don't use this site regularly. What I mean is how can two characters combined can have a tier? Neither of them are Large Planet+ and there's no such thing as being a certain tier that isn't even on their page when 'combined' on this site.

As for planet level genjutsu, it sounded like you were saying the genjutsu had the capacity to single-handedly kill a planet-tier character, which was just a misunderstanding. The entire thing was a misunderstanding, and you honestly had no reason to put forward an Ad Hominem, agressive argument like that.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

There's some heavy Bleach wanking in this thread. People claim the speed Aizen and Ichigo took out Yhwach not even thinking about how the manga was rushed makes their feat that more effective; eh...


KS would be broken out of like a genin level genjutsu.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

There's some heavy Bleach wanking in this thread. People claim the speed Aizen and Ichigo took out Yhwach not even thinking about how the manga was rushed makes their feat that more effective; eh...

KS would be broken out of like a genin level genjutsu.

Please don't accuse people in this thread of wanking when you have no proof


don't downplay bruh, it makes you look bad

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Yeah i'll jump in with something to counter later but did you not witness the flow in the first 20 replies?

 

[HalfAsianFan]

@Lucy Even if it was rushed, they're all still calcable feats.

 

[InfamousYonnie]

Naruto and Sasuke, Illusions don't work on Sasuke making him literally have to fight Sasuke. All Visual illusions are to the rinnegan just won't happen. Aizen is cool and all but, he can't fight one on one in close range.

For example when he fought Ichigo after getting his timeskip from training with his father. Aizen left Multitudes of openings letting Ichigo connect, but, the only reason he didn't die was because of his durability. Sasuke can definitely get those same types of openings since he can actually fight close combat and range wise.

Naruto already beat Ichigo, no point in debating there.

Lets say Ichigo and Aizen don't seperate Naruto and Sasuke and try to fight them together. Sasuke and Naruto still wins due to the fact they have more training together and know how to work well with one another better due to acutally fighting together. Aizen and Ichigo never fought together before fighting Ywach. Not only that, but both Naruto and Sasuke have better versatlity, combat skills, and destructive capacity than both Aizen and Ichigo. With Naruto there they pretty much can't die to the fact Naruto's healing abilities are ridiculously effective in a short time span.