Nanatsu no Taizai Changes

[RavenSupreme]

Over the last couple of weeks the Nanatsu no Taizai verse introduced new feats, scalings and calculations.

Two calcs proved to be important to change the verses characters tiering.


The already accepted and used Danafor calculation from 2016

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...-_Feel_the_power_of_the_Dragon's_Sin_of_Wrath

now after 2 years of ongoing retcon and development has enough supporting evidence to use the, previously not usable, vaporization value, changing its result - See for reference an in-depth explanation in the comments

-.

The newly introduced calculation of Tarmiel supports that tiering with a similar result.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...rmiel_Makes_an_Ocean_Calc_-_Nanatsu_no_Taizai

-

Both calculations appear to change the inverse tiering and scaling by quite a margin. Due to a majority of the cast relying on the tiering I would appreciate input on the matter.

 

[Malikobama1]

I fully support using vaporization for a couple of reasons:

Naruto Bijuu upgrades based on the presence of rising clouds after their energy attacks went off set a clear precedent. When Meliodas' attack was first shown we didn't see the aftermath, but much later in the manga we did see the aftermath, a huge rising cloud.

For those who would discount it simply because he used his darkness energy to do it I would ask: is not the Tailed Beast Ball the same thing? TBBs are a mix of positive and negative chakra turned into an energy attack. Meliodas' attack was either pure darkness energy or black flame, which leads into the second piece of evidence:

Estarossa's Black Hound, which is made of black fire and burns things, created the same kind of black-outlined clouds rising up after it did its thing.

These two points mean that Meliodas' attack was either purgatory fire, OR it was dark energy that STILL created the same vaporization clouds that actual fire does.

Either way, the threshold for evidence of vaporization has clearly been reached at this point.

The feat scales to all the 50k plus characters that could fight Unsealed Demon Mel.

_________________________________________________________________________

As for the Ocean feat, that upgrade should go through regardless of whether vaporization is accepted or not. Power levels in NNT have never been linear in the first place, and since I'm anticipating people calling it an outlier because Galand and Derieri could damage Tarmiel and Sariel - it's clear that they fall into the same category as Ban, as in Nakaba lets them get damaged just to show off their regen. The worst case scenario is they're glass cannons.

The feat only scales to Archangels, Indura, Multiple Commandment Estarossa, Assault Mel, and Near Noon/The One Escanor.

 

[Muuuuh]

I agree withvthe changes, they need upgrades

 

[Malikobama1]

Actually hold on a second. Galand, True Form Fraudrin, and others of the same general 25k-40k PL are listed as High 7-A because they are astronomically more powerful than the lower characters. Given Galand's multiple feats against the Archangels and the fact that Fraudrin tanked their Omega Ark with only light injuries, why aren't they also in Tier 6? AFAIK there's no reason to assume they're orders of magnitude less powerful than the other Commandments.

Dreyfus' AP needs to be changed or explained better as well. It's stated that the power of his magic attacks is dependent on his willpower, and his Milky Way Breaker Blade was able to damage both Unsealed Meliodas and True Form Fraudrin. It should either have limited durability ignoring or be listed as Higher with Magic Attacks.

 

[Dark649]

Chandler calcs results were around High 6-C for a casual feat, so there's that:

The One Escanor and Current Post Commandments Meliodas: At least High 6-B, likely higher. [Over 200000]

3 Commandments Estarossa, Assault Meliodas: At least High 6-B [Over 13000-142000]

Archangels, 2 Commandments Estarossa, Indura Monspeet and Derieri, Peak Sun Escanor: High 6-B. [88000 - 114000]

Danafor Meliodas, Estarossa, Zeldris, Chandler and etc: Low 6-B+. [56000 and onwards]

 

[RavenSupreme]

I should have made it more clear in the OP. I just provided calculations and calculations evaluation. I have not really an idea how to scale and tier the people in the verse settings, outside of knowing everything is a mess as it is right now.

I would therefore like knowledgable members to come her and give their input, since they are better suited for it than I am.

Sorry for the confusion.

Edit: Dark you ninjad me....

Anyone have opinion on Darks tiering?

 

[Dark649]

Actually hold on a second. Galand, True Form Fraudrin, and others of the same general 25k-40k PL are listed as High 7-A because they are astronomically more powerful than the lower characters. Given Galand's multiple feats against the Archangels and the fact that Fraudrin tanked their Omega Ark with only light injuries, why aren't they also in Tier 6?

Rewatch the fight, the Archangels were extremely casual and were mostly toying with them, also there is the implication that the Archangels were confident to oneshot them.

Dreyfus' AP needs to be changed or explained better as well. It's stated that the power of his magic attacks is dependent on his willpower, and his Milky Way Breaker Blade was able to damage both Unsealed Meliodas and True Form Fraudrin. It should either have limited durability ignoring or be listed as Higher with Magic Attacks.

Durability Negation may be fine.

 

[Malikobama1]

Edit: @Dark649 I made the comment below before I saw your last comment, what are your thoughts?

I generally agree with Dark649 on the tiering.

Since it seems like all of NNT should be straightened out with this revision, I need to point out an elephant in the room.

Starting from the premise that Tarmiel's Ocean feat is valid - that feat was casual, displaying no effort on Tarmiel's part. It was not the upper limit of his 88k PL. In fact he didn't even move or show any strain.

Meliodas' Danafor feat is never actually stated or implied to be the limit on his power or using all his power to accomplish. All that happened was he lost control for a bit and let off an AoE attack. What was calced was the destruction, not necessarily Meliodas' full AP.

Here's the problem - pretty much all of the lower High Tiers (between 26k and 61k) have displayed the ability to survive and/or slightly keep up with the higher High Tiers (88k).

In the Archangels vs Commandments fight, the Archangels told each other that they expected to be able to win in seconds, and their first attack, Omega Ark, was meant to be the killing blow. Furthermore, the various moments of the fight showed them displaying more effort than it took Tarmiel to create Ocean.

1. Fraudrin, Monspeet, and Derieri tanked Omega Ark with only light injuries despite it being an actual attack, meant to one-shot the Commandments.

2. Fraudrin also survived the Danafor attack, albeit in an extremely weakened state.

3. Derieri was able to push through Sariel's Tornado barrier, albeit at the cost of her arm, and puncture his eye with her arm bone. He was clearly not expecting that to happen.

4. Derieri was also able to lightly damage Tarmiel with her first attack, and really messed him up with her 54-attack barrage. He was actually more damaged by it than Unsealed Demon Mel was.

5. Critical Over Galand was able to tank Tarmiel's huge light ball without visible injury, pick it up, and pound it back down.

6. Base Galand was able to cut through Tarmiel with a surprise attack.

7. Monspeet was able to punch straight through Tarmiel's three heads with a purgatory fire bullet.

8. Zeldris, a serious individual, had no doubts he could hold his own against an Archangel even without his Commandment, meaning he'd likely be even weaker than his normal PL of 61k.

With all of the above in mind, I see two possibilities.

Either the 50k and up characters go to Low 6-B for being able to keep up with 56k Meliodas, and the 26k-48k characters go to Likely High 6-C for being fairly comparable though significantly weaker;

OR the 50k and up characters go to at least 6-B for being able to keep up with the Archangels, and the 26k-48k characters go to Likely 6-B for being able to slightly compete with the 50k+ characters.

 

[Peter1129]

So 50k and above would be Low 6-B scaling from damaging 56k Meliodas. What would the ones below 50k like Galand be?

@Malikobama1

Considering how Sariel and Tarmiel is even stronger than 2 Commandment Estarossa we can assume they were toying with the Ten Commandments 3000 years ago.

 

[Malikobama1]

@Peter

If the 50k's are at Low 6-B, I don't think it makes any sense for the lower Commandment tiers to be all that much weaker, especially the 40k and up ones. I'd argue for Likely High 6-C

Regarding Sariel and Tarmiel, my issue is that it certainly seemed like they were putting in more effort than it took Tarmiel to create his Ocean. He didn't even need to move or show the slightest strain when he made it.

 

[Muuuuh]

Sariel and Tarmiel did not use their Graces very well in the battle with TC, they did not even come close to the displays of the fight against Estarossa, it is possible that they had not received the graces yet or that it did not have dominion, Since Tarmiel (?) Did not become liquid when being hit by Galan.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Hmm, so Ban is getting upgraded? Might as well pick up the manga again soon.

I don't really have an opinion on the scaling since it's been so long, but I agree with Malik's points.

Also, I don't think that stuff with Dreyfus is durability negation.

 

[Malikobama1]

@Muuuuh

Tarmiel showed his Ocean grace when Galand sliced him in half, and Sariel had his Tornado barrier up the whole time.

I edited my last comment right before you replied, but my major issue is that Tarmiel creating Ocean took him literally no noticeable effort or strain, he didn't even move. He displayed more effort fighting the Commandments. Remember that he and Sariel were actually betting on finishing the fight in a matter of seconds, but that quickly didn't turn out to be the case.

 

[Peter1129]

@Malikobama1 Problem is some characters like Matrona are currently 7-A for being able to somewhat contend with Galand. So if Galand gets upgraded to High 6-C than what would the 7-A characters tier be?

 

[Malikobama1]

@Peter

I actually reread the fight after we talked about it earlier today, and I don't think she should actually be in the same tier as Galand. She did zero damage to him and Monspeet, and the injury she sustained happened off-panel. It's possible Galand just grazed her with his blade since he was striking randomly while she was hidden underground. Rather, I think she should be downgraded to At Least 7-B for being significantly more powerful than Albions.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah for Matrona we could just downgrade her to At least 7-B since her power lvl isn't that much higher from the 7-Bs. But the main problem is the 7-As like King who has a power lvl of At least 11k with True Spirit Spear Chastiefol and Diane who has a power lvl of 15k via Drole's dance. Where would they scale since their power lvl is pretty much in between the 7-Bs and High 6-Cs? 7-A/High 7-A/6-C/High 6-C backwards scaling from High 6-C's like Galand?

 

[Muuuuh]

@Malikobama

Yes you're right, but because the exhibits are low compared to what was shown against Estarossa, is it possible that they did not have enough dominance? What do you think?

 

[Malikobama1]

@Peter

Depends on how high into 7-B the Albion is. King and 15k Diane may be justified to have a baseline 7-A rating. Otherwise I'd give them At Least 7-B, Likely Higher.

@Muuuuh

You're kinda hitting on my point, I don't think their showing 3000 years ago was low compared to their showing against Estarossa. They actually displayed more and bigger attacks 3000 years ago, except for Divine Wrath of Enlil. Sariel was using the same barrier, Tarmiel was using his Ocean to regenerate, Tarmiel was firing off bigger light attacks, etc. The fact that they expected to win in seconds, and then couldn't, tells me that the Commandments should somewhat scale to them.

There's no indication that their Graces improved over the 3000 years, especially since they're not even in their true forms when fighting Estarossa.

 

[Peter1129]

@Malikobama1 Than what would happen to everything in between 15k and 26k? Ban is currently At least 7-A+ Possibly High 7-A via stealing over half of Galand's strength with Hunter Fest which would put him at the very least at 16k. Same with Elaine who is also At least 7-A+ Possibly High 7-A with a power lvl of 21k.

We have absolutely no idea where the characters between 7k and 26k would be since there's 4 tiers in between them. And what makes it worse is that the High 6-Cs are backwards scaled from a Low 6-B+. Which would make them really high end High 6-C.

 

[Malikobama1]

@Peter

Diane's striking of the ground when she created Mother Catastrophe is 42 megatons, and the actual MC itself is clearly above that.

So you need to be about 2.38 times as strong as Diane to be baseline 7-A. Gray Hendrickson was already capable of completely no-selling and stomping her, giving him At Least 7-B.

Anyone at Post-Training Base Diane's level or higher (8k+) should easily be 7-A (more than twice as powerful as Pre-Training Diane). Matrona could be At Least 7-B, likely 7-A (comparable to Post-Training Diane, far more powerful than Gray Demon Hendrickson).

Post-Wings Elaine should be At Least 7-A, possibly higher (far more powerful than Post-Training Diane).

 

[LordGinSama]

This seems good, also which end of the second calc are we using?

 

[Peter1129]

@Malikobama1 So you're suggesting.

7k = At least 7-B Likely 7-A

8k = 7-A

21k = At least 7-A Possibly Higher

26k = High 6-C

 

[Dark649]

In order to damage Low 6-B+ Chandler King and Gowther must be pretty high in High 6-C.

Note: The Archangels did not seemed so serious agaist the Commandments .

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah the characters that are 26k or higher should be around High 6-C. But the problem is the characters below that what tier would they be?

 

[Dark649]

King and Gowther pl combined are 76400 [King being slighty above CR Galand and Gowther being 600 pl from CR Galand], according to Arthur Cusack and Chandler [Mainly on magic] are similar to 61000 Zeldris. Peter we should not force a massive backward scaling if there are no feats inbetween, so Low 7-B to 7-A is my highest bet.

 

[Muuuuh]

But although very wounded, Fraudrin survived the attack of Danafor and Chandler is often more powerful than Fraudrin, should he not be at least Low 6 - B too?

Off Topic: Dark, do you know All Blue? Is your native language Portuguese?

 

[Malikobama1]

@Dark

That video proves what I've been saying though.

The Archangels went in expecting the Omega Ark to oneshot. Sariel even says he's "surprised" that the three who tanked it were fine, wondering how they got out of it. And we saw them clearly tank it. The angels were clearly caught off guard several times as well, like when Sariel's barrier was pierced. Sariel's expression when Galand appeared holding Tarmiel's light sphere wasn't even close to casual either. Everything they did took more effort than it took Tarmiel to make Ocean, and they were clearly fighting to win even if they never got a chance to show their full power.

Ludoshel even stated that he would have to go see to matters personally, implying he doubted Sariel and Tarmiel would accomplish their mission of taking out the Commandments. That means the Commandments need to be at least powerful enough to hold them off and escape.

Furthermore, they stated they were about twice as strong as a Commandment (not PL wise but in terms of power).

Everything points to Commandment-tiers being somewhere in the 6-B range (not High 6-B though) because they definitely aren't hundreds of times weaker than the Archangels. If that was the case the plot wouldn't make sense.

 

[Peter1129]

@Dark Alright then so basically going with something along the lines of Malikobama1's suggestion.

Oh right now that I think about it Fraudrin's profile even said he survived the destruction of Danafor which is Low 6-B+. Wait so wouldn't that mean Fraudrin is Low 6-B+ and everybody stronger than him are 6-B? Or do we consider him surviving it an outlier?

 

[Dark649]

There is a considerable difference in power between Chandler and Fraudrin, so i think he should not fully scale. Muuh: No.

 

[Malikobama1]

Okay, so right now we for sure have:

The One Escanor: At least High 6-B, likely higher (one-shotted Assault Mode Meliodas with no effort)

Assault Mode Meliodas: At least High 6-B (far more powerful than Near Noon Escanor)

Truth/Reticence Estarossa: At least High 6-B (far more powerful than Tarmiel and Sariel)

Truth Estarossa: High 6-B (nearly equal in power to Tarmiel and Sariel, broke out of their Domain of God which requires comparable power to them)

Near Noon Escanor: High 6-B (more powerful than Sariel and Tarmiel)

Ludoshel: High 6-B (more powerful than Sariel and Tarmiel)

Sariel: High 6-B (comparable to Tarmiel)

Tarmiel: High 6-B (link to calc)

Escanor needs one more key. There's a huge difference between his 50k+ form that beat Galand, and his ultra buff form that one-shot Zeldris and rekt Estarossa. And I honestly don't think his temporary transformation even deserves its own key.

What should be done about the Induras? Derieri straight up no-sold Ludoshel's attacks and rekt him with ease, so do they deserve an At least High 6-B, or just a High 6-B?

 

[Peter1129]

So the profiles that need changes should become something like this.

Ban: Varies. Up to Likely High 6-C

Keys: After Hunter Fest

Diane: 7-A | 7-A (Stronger than Matrona, has a power lvl of 8000) | Varies. Up to At least High 6-C Likely Low 6-B (Can raise her power level up to 48000 making her much stronger than King. She was able to fight Escanor although he could be toying with her.)

Key: Friends | After Drole's Training Base | After Drole's Dance

Escanor: High 6-C unarmed. Low 6-B+ with Rhitta | At least Low 6-B+ likely higher (Fought on par with and later defeated Estarossa with a single attack) | High 6-B | At least High 6-B likely higher

Keys: Pseudo-Sun | Mid-Morning | Late Morning | The One (High-Noon)

Gowther: High 6-C

Keys: After accepting his memories

King: At least High 6-C

Keys: After Gloxinia's training

Meliodas: At least 7-B with Demon Mark. 7-A in Berserk state | High 6-C | Low 6-B+ | Low 6-B+. High 6-B w/ Demon Mark | At least High 6-B | At least High 6-B likely higher ( Much stronger than his Assault Mode)

Keys: Sealed Demon | Unsealed Base | Unsealed Demon | Post-Revival | Assault Mode | 5 Commandments Absorbed

Merlin: At least 7-B (Has a power level even higher than Sealed Demon Mark Meliodas) | Likely Low 6-B

Keys: Pre-Revival | Post-Revival

Calmadios:Unknown. Possibly Low 6-B

Derieri: Low 6-B+ | High 6-B

Keys: Base | Indura Form

Drole: Low 6-B

Estarossa: Low 6-B+ | High 6-B | At least High 6-B

Keys: Base | Two Commandments Absorbed | Three Commandments Absorbed

Fraudrin: High 6-C

Galand: High 6-C | At least High 6-C

Keys: Base | Critical Over

Gloxinia: Low 6-B

Greyroad: 7-A physically. High 6-C with black matter and magic

Merascula: At least Low 7-B physically. High 6-C with black matter and snake form

Monspeet: Low 6-B+ | High 6-B

Keys: Base | Indura Form

Zeldris: Low 6-B+ Higher with God (Easily defeated Drole with a single attack in the past)

Ludoshel: High 6-B

Sariel: High 6-B

Tarmiel: High 6-B

Elaine: Likely 7-B (Has a power level of 2830 making her comparable to Denzel) | High 6-C

Keys: Base | Post-Wings

Elizabeth: Low 6-B+ Possibly higher (Pushed back Indura Derieri and Indura Monspeet in the past. Hurt Assault Mode Meliodas and slightly damaged 3 Commandment Absorbed Estarossa)

Keys: Goddess/With memories restored

Hawk durability: Low 6-B+

Hawk Mama durability: Low 6-B+

Matrona: At least 7-B likely 7-A (Much stronger than Diane, has a power level of 7600)

Chandler: Low 6-B+ | At least Low 6-B+ likely High 6-B

Keys: Base | True Form

Cusack: Low 6-B+ | At least Low 6-B+ likely High 6-B

Keys: Base | True Form

 

[Dark649]

The Archangels did not used their graces back then.

 

[Peter1129]

They did just not as much as they did against Estarossa. They used their graces mostly for defense 3000 years ago.

 

[Malikobama1]

They did use their Graces. Sariel used his barrier and also cut Monspeet to pieces with his wind blades, which Monspeet regenerated from. Tarmiel on the other hand only used his to regenerate.

Again, my previous comment goes over everything. It straight up does not make sense, narratively or logically, for the Commandments to be hundreds of times weaker than the Archangels.

- Sariel and Tarmiel had their Graces back then, Sariel used his offensively and both used them defensively.

- Ludoshel stated he needed to intervene, meaning he suspected Sariel and Tarmiel wouldn't succeed their mission.

- Sariel and Tarmiel started off the fight confident and joking around, but pay attention as it goes on. Sariel's expression switches to shock and then shock/fear, which is when Ludoshel intervenes. Tarmiel stops talking and concentrates on holding off both Derieri and Galand, and he loses his smirk.

- Tarmiel's Ocean creation feat is the epitome of casual.

- Sariel/Tarmiel state that they're only about twice as powerful as "you Commandments" in general. Which is why Ludoshel felt he needed to intervene.

- Both Sariel and Tarmiel are damaged multiple times by Monspeet/Derieri/Galand.

- Monspeet/Derieri/Fraudrin all tank Omega Ark with barely any injury, despite it being an attempted kill-shot.

The evidence is overwhelming for the Commandments to scale to a large fraction of the Archangel's power, which is why I'm arguing for a 6-B rating, as AA are lower-end High 6-B. The Danafor feat would simply be a supporting feat but nothing important.

 

[Zezu1995]

oes that mean that light blast ludohit zedris with, which was calc at country was correct?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Talking about the calculation, the method used requires a scene showing the water forming. I think that by not having this in the chapter, the method in the case becomes invalid.

 

[Muuuuh]

Talking about the calculation, the method used requires a scene showing the water forming. I think that by not having this in the chapter, the method in the case becomes invalid.

It does not require this, it only requires the character to control all the water produced, which he has been able to do. At least that's how I interpreted it.

 

[Malikobama1]

Talking about the calculation, the method used requires a scene showing the water forming. I think that by not having this in the chapter, the method in the case becomes invalid.

It would need explicit on-panel proof if we were assuming mass-energy conversion but we're not. It's simple enthalpy of formation, because it was stated to be created by Tarmiel, and he completely controls it.

 

[Muuuuh]

In addition to what was explicitly stated that that dimension was created by grace, then the calculation would not be unusable at all.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Talking about the calculation, the method used requires a scene showing the water forming. I think that by not having this in the chapter, the method in the case becomes invalid.

It does not require this, it only requires the character to control all the water produced, which he has been able to do. At least that's how I interpreted it.

Enthalpy formation consists of the molecules of H2 and O releasing is thus forming water, which is not shown in the chapter. So it becomes invalid for this case