more of squid saying stuff about Undertale and Determination because that is all I am currently good for

[Squid_peanut]

hey, sorry if the amount of this stuff annoys anyone but there are two things that I want to discuss both on the most recent upgrade thread and a new analysis I have.

so, first I would like to propose that the god tiers that were affected by the most recent Upgrade, be listed as "their current max tier or their tier if we see the Chara feat as infinite" since actually choosing one or the other depends on the definition of the word countless and how it could just as likely refer to a finite amount or an infinite amount. and so it would be much more accurate to say that they could be one or the other instead of just listing only one of them.

also I think I've been able to figure out just what was happening in the Asriel fight. it could in fact be that the whole thing was Asriel trying to reset the timeline and Frisk using there determination to prevent him, this actually explains the dialog in this scene since Asriel says he wants to reset when he gains full control of the timeline. we know that Determination can be used to prevent time manipulation and that's what we could be seeing here. Also Asriel says that everytime Frisk dies their grasp on the world weakens and their friends forget them more and more. Frisk clearly isn't falling apart or slowing like Undyne did in her normal battle so it seems more likely that being forced to stop dying causes Frisk's concentration on holding the timeline slip, thus allowing Asriel to reset a bit and memories are being unwritten. It's Asriel wanting to reset so that all of the events could happen again because he thinks of it as a game and wants to play again.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

To address your first point, this is true, but we usually take the low end just to be safe. For instance, Chara is "likely 2-B" so as to acknowledge the low end but also not count out the possibility that it is higher.

This is definitely a possibility. I also kind of interpreted it as Frisk slowly fading from existence, and Asriel realizing they couldn't keep up their own existence, forever. Once they were gone, Asriel would have no more obstacles and could reset everything as he see fit.

 

[Squid_peanut]

1) I feel that due to the fact that there are two minimums that entirely depend on whether or not countless meant infinite or finite, it ends up being a case of "the evidence for both could equally mean either". so having it where we just state the two equally likely possibilities and say that it depends on this one key fact would give a far better understanding of the situation to anyone who later reads the profiles than having the admittibly vague satement of "likely 2-B"

2) I used to think that too, but with how much Asriel talks about wanting to keep Frisk around and wanting to just reset everything, it hardly seems like he would want to erase Frisk from existance but rather stop them from preventing him from reseting.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. True, but Ant seemed to prefer "Likely 2-B" to "2-B or 2-A", though they mean roughly the same thing.

2. Yeah, but Asriel did have control over EVERYTHING, at that point. I think resetting all of existence would likely have brought Frisk back, as he wasn't exactly planning of Gaster-ing them.

 

[Squid_peanut]

1) well we could have "likely 2-B or likely 2-A (if destroying countless universes was meant to be a synonym for destroying infinite Universes)" it just feals like we are being to vague and ignoring a very real possibility simply off of personal opinion. we can still created verses where we treat everything off of Chara being 2-B and there's litteraly no downside to pointing out a very real possibility that would give a very clear outcome.

2) if he could just fully reset them and their memories why would he even fight Frisk, he even says himself that he'll reset everything once he "gains full control of the timeline"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. Possibly, yes. You can see what others think.

2. Yes, but that's because he had to wrestle control away from Frisk while they were alive, which he wouldn't have to do if they were dead.

 

[Squid_peanut]

2. Yes, but that's because he had to wrestle control away from Frisk while they were alive, which he wouldn't have to do if they were dead.

but then whenever he kills them they come back without any apperent weakening, like with say Undyne

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

but then whenever he kills them they come back without any apperent weakening, like with say Undyne

Doesn't he directly say their grip on the world weakens every time he kills them?

 

[Squid_peanut]

Doesn't he directly say their grip on the world weakens every time he kills them?

yes, but I'm saying this could refer to their grip on the timeline which is stopping Asriel from reseting everyone and their memories because he follows this up with talking about how their friends forget them a bit more with every death, if Frisk was only truely dying there would be no reason for monsters to be forgetting them. And if Frisk was starting to just falter in general, they would be slowing down like Undyne did after nearing death several times, Frisk shows no signs of slowing down even like they did when Flowey was repeatedly attacking them right before stealing everyone's (minus napstablook) souls.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Bump because I want this change maybe made

 

[Antvasima]

We have already gone through this to exhaustion. I have explained over and over and over that even 10^17 is "countless", even if you count for billions of years. Unless the word "infinite timelines" is used we should definitely go with 2-B to not unreasonably boost the franchise. We have already gone over this several tomes in the old topics. Do I really have to make a front page rule about not bringing up this matter again?