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Moon Movement 5-B to Naruto-Verse UPGRADE (Let's do this again but right :D)
- Thread starter Tom4t0GG789
- Start date
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Yes, especially because several people are waiting for my reply specifically before chiming in.
I'm sorry for the delay, but my post should be up later today (given timezone variances, ig that may be tomorrow for some of y'all). Either way, you shouldn't wait too much now, I promise.
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Y'all better pray Slayer's in a good mood.
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I am, and I promise I'll give this a fair shake, 100%. But since this hasn't received the healthy level of skepticism and push back an upgrade of this magnitude needs, and since not many people are knowledgeable or interested enough to be "that guy", it kinda falls to me sadly. So, yeah, I'll be tough but fair.
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Naruto and Devil May Cry: 
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Nicee
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start shaking lil bro
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,659
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Lex get more admins or mods here imo
otherwise my beard will reach my toes by the time this concludes
otherwise my beard will reach my toes by the time this concludes
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Ghost be patient lmao, slayers gonna get to it eventually
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I believe it’s better for the thread to have more evaluators, slayer can take his time
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. Hopefully they reply 
.
Sebas-S.P-san
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It would have been easier a Sandbox xD, but I agree.
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I doubt it's needed, this calc was on their profiles before, it's just returning
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This is what ya'll have been waiting for, but as they say, be careful what you wish for. 
Before I begin, I just wanna take a moment to address the OP real quick. Honestly, mate, kudos to you. Seriously. For a relatively new member with little experience, you produced a rather high quality CRT on the whole. So while we may be on opposing sides of this particular argument, I don't want that to discourage you from making more CRTs in the future, regardless of how this one pans out in the end.
With that being said...
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That's about all I've got to say. Like I said before, I'm not very interested in this thread, so to be completely upfront here, don't expect me to engage in extended back and forths on this moving forward. I just made this post because many people were waiting to hear what I had to say before meaningfully engaging with the thread, and also because it's specifically addressing a thread I had made previously. So I felt compelled to respond. But I feel like I've said pretty much all I wanted to.
If something truly requires me to respond, I will ig, but otherwise, this should be it from me.
I'll now tag the peeps who were either waiting on my response or should be interested in this. I leave the rest in your capable hands, lads!
@Damage3245 @LordTracer @Arc7Kuroi @Shadowbokunohero @Deceived3596
Before I begin, I just wanna take a moment to address the OP real quick. Honestly, mate, kudos to you. Seriously. For a relatively new member with little experience, you produced a rather high quality CRT on the whole. So while we may be on opposing sides of this particular argument, I don't want that to discourage you from making more CRTs in the future, regardless of how this one pans out in the end.
With that being said...
Here we go!
Two things here jump at me immediately.
#1. Madara's narration never asserted that Kaguya was human.
#2. Hagoromo did not know that Kaguya was the Ten Tails, so how would he even include that in the Stone Tablet? So that's not really a knock on its accuracy.
Beyond that, it's important to note that Uchiha Stone tablet was written by Hagoromo for his descendants specifically. Namely the Uchiha Clan/Indra's bloodline. Its purpose was to guide them, so it's by no means meant to be some comprehensive history lesson. It omitting certain details doesn't necessarily mean that what it does contain is wrong by default.
A better argument to attack its legitimacy would be that Black Zetsu fiddled with it a bit to manipulate the Uchiha clan into manifesting a Rinnegan; however, that bit really has nothing to do with moon creation, sending the moon to space, Hamura, or any of that stuff really. Like, BZ gains nothing by making up that Hagoromo hurled the moon into orbit.
Also, from a "meta" perspective, the fact of the matter is that Hamura was simply just not a thing for most of Naruto's run, well into the War Arc even. He was something that Kishimoto awkwardly inserted into the story very late into the game for the sake of The Last's story. He was an afterthought of the highest order lol.
So, in my personal opinion, ignoring most of the series' lore and narratives just because they failed to retroactively include a character that Kishimoto simply hadn't thought of yet isn't the way to go. Perhaps in cases where there's severe contradictions, sure. But as I'll be explaining further, I do not think what Obito said here is really all that contradictory at all.
Finally, I would like to point out that me using Obito's statement was to support a greater point, which is that the creation of the moon and the sending of said moon to orbit are separate feats. I'll delve into that later on in my response, but this is something the OP has simply failed to address at all.
So, yeah, frankly, I'm not seeing any particularly good reason to dismiss Obito's statement inherently.
However, I'm not so convinced regarding them moving to the moon immediately afterwards.
I asked my good friend @Shadowbokunohero and they said the following regarding this statement:
This interpretation is also consistent with some other translations I saw, including the one from Narutoversity, which is what I based my initial stance on.
Hamura and Hagoromo seal away Ten Tails > Hamura becomes clan leader > undisclosed amount of time passes > Hamura and clan move to the moon.
Even if I were to agree that the clan and Hamura migrated to the moon right after, or soon after, the battle against Ten Tails, that by itself doesn't really matter all that much.
As I have argued in my original thread, the feats of creating the moon and hurling the moon into orbit are different feats. This is something you have simply not countered or even addressed in any meaningful way. As such, I feel compelled to proceed as though that stance is the correct and accepted one, which it is.
With that in mind, Hamura and co could have migrated to the satellite hovering above the planet right after the battle and the overall assertions of my thread would still hold true. More on this later.
That being said, the movie does absolutely have many issues and inconsistencies that are tied to its production issues and what have you. The issues exist, we just sorta ignore them because, well, what else can we do? My philosophy with inconsistent things is to simply take what works, and ignore what doesn't.
Keep in mind, Hagoromo and Hamura have lived for well over 3000 years at the very least. So Hagoromo may as well have lived 100 years (or even longer than that) after he scattered the Bijuu, and he'd still technically speaking be "nearing the end of his life" relative to his gargantuan lifespan. So, yes, my timeline of events could actually still work even with all of these factors in mind.
Two problems, yeah?
#1 All of the examples you brought up are of people who were definitely going to die, sooner or later. Their enhanced life-forces made them cling to life for a bit longer, yes, but their deaths were seen as inevitable. Compare this to Hagoromo, who according to Kurama lived for an extended period of time post-Bijuu extraction, and it's just night and day. Hell, one could safely interpret Kurama's statement to mean that Hagoromo actually recovered after the several months of being extremely weakened, and only died after extracting the Gedo Mazo. This would be consistent with Madara who also only died after detaching himself from the Gedo Mazo's life-force, despite having run his natural lifespan already.
#2 I just don't see how any of this debunks Kurama's statement or proves it was retconned. You proved that some people can survive for a short time after Bijuu extraction. How does that debunk what Kurama said? They are not mutually exclusive things.
This means that Kaguya's genetic traits such as her Byakugan and Bone Kekkei Genkai could only be passed on through her two children and their respective descendants, not Kaguya directly.
We know that at the very least the Hyuga are descendants of Hamura, not Hagoromo. This means that my claim was correct. These descendants of Hamura didn't just pop into existence randomly. He had to have left them behind on earth.
So, again, I'm not seeing how any of this really disproves what I said.
Okay, lemme break this down.
Two things here jump at me immediately.
#1. Madara's narration never asserted that Kaguya was human.
#2. Hagoromo did not know that Kaguya was the Ten Tails, so how would he even include that in the Stone Tablet? So that's not really a knock on its accuracy.
Beyond that, it's important to note that Uchiha Stone tablet was written by Hagoromo for his descendants specifically. Namely the Uchiha Clan/Indra's bloodline. Its purpose was to guide them, so it's by no means meant to be some comprehensive history lesson. It omitting certain details doesn't necessarily mean that what it does contain is wrong by default.
A better argument to attack its legitimacy would be that Black Zetsu fiddled with it a bit to manipulate the Uchiha clan into manifesting a Rinnegan; however, that bit really has nothing to do with moon creation, sending the moon to space, Hamura, or any of that stuff really. Like, BZ gains nothing by making up that Hagoromo hurled the moon into orbit.
Also, from a "meta" perspective, the fact of the matter is that Hamura was simply just not a thing for most of Naruto's run, well into the War Arc even. He was something that Kishimoto awkwardly inserted into the story very late into the game for the sake of The Last's story. He was an afterthought of the highest order lol.
So, in my personal opinion, ignoring most of the series' lore and narratives just because they failed to retroactively include a character that Kishimoto simply hadn't thought of yet isn't the way to go. Perhaps in cases where there's severe contradictions, sure. But as I'll be explaining further, I do not think what Obito said here is really all that contradictory at all.
Finally, I would like to point out that me using Obito's statement was to support a greater point, which is that the creation of the moon and the sending of said moon to orbit are separate feats. I'll delve into that later on in my response, but this is something the OP has simply failed to address at all.
So, yeah, frankly, I'm not seeing any particularly good reason to dismiss Obito's statement inherently.
I will concede to Hamura inheriting the clan's leadership right after (or at least not too long after) the battle against Ten Tails. It was a pretty minor supporting point anyway, and doesn't really affect much by itself.
However, I'm not so convinced regarding them moving to the moon immediately afterwards.
I asked my good friend @Shadowbokunohero and they said the following regarding this statement:
Meaning that it's describing two separate events that have an undisclosed timeframe between them, rather than the two things happening simultaneously.
This interpretation is also consistent with some other translations I saw, including the one from Narutoversity, which is what I based my initial stance on.
So it's more like:
Hamura and Hagoromo seal away Ten Tails > Hamura becomes clan leader > undisclosed amount of time passes > Hamura and clan move to the moon.
You make a good point here. Allow me to offer a counterpoint of my own, though.
Even if I were to agree that the clan and Hamura migrated to the moon right after, or soon after, the battle against Ten Tails, that by itself doesn't really matter all that much.
As I have argued in my original thread, the feats of creating the moon and hurling the moon into orbit are different feats. This is something you have simply not countered or even addressed in any meaningful way. As such, I feel compelled to proceed as though that stance is the correct and accepted one, which it is.
With that in mind, Hamura and co could have migrated to the satellite hovering above the planet right after the battle and the overall assertions of my thread would still hold true. More on this later.
I'm going to mostly ignore this section because The Last is already accepted as canon on the wiki, pretty irrefutably. No one is really attacking its canonicity, least of all me.
That being said, the movie does absolutely have many issues and inconsistencies that are tied to its production issues and what have you. The issues exist, we just sorta ignore them because, well, what else can we do? My philosophy with inconsistent things is to simply take what works, and ignore what doesn't.
I'm not sure how this is supposed to contradict Kurama's statement, since he also said that Hagoromo lived for quite some time after he scattered the Bijuu.
Keep in mind, Hagoromo and Hamura have lived for well over 3000 years at the very least. So Hagoromo may as well have lived 100 years (or even longer than that) after he scattered the Bijuu, and he'd still technically speaking be "nearing the end of his life" relative to his gargantuan lifespan. So, yes, my timeline of events could actually still work even with all of these factors in mind.
I don't believe that the Minato one-shot was ever confirmed to have taken place during the 3rd Shinobi World War. We don't have a concrete timeline for when the one-shot took place. Correct me if I'm wrong though, of course.
It was stated to be thanks to the Gedo Mazo, pretty explicitly.
Kushina was going to die, and the same goes for Naruto if not for some outside interference. So I'm not sure how this proves anything. Hagoromo lived for (at the very least) several months after the Bijuu were extracted. That's substantially longer than these two would've lived on.
Again, Madara died quite literally moments after, so like.....
Yeah, like, I'm just not convinced by this argument whatsoever.
Two problems, yeah?
#1 All of the examples you brought up are of people who were definitely going to die, sooner or later. Their enhanced life-forces made them cling to life for a bit longer, yes, but their deaths were seen as inevitable. Compare this to Hagoromo, who according to Kurama lived for an extended period of time post-Bijuu extraction, and it's just night and day. Hell, one could safely interpret Kurama's statement to mean that Hagoromo actually recovered after the several months of being extremely weakened, and only died after extracting the Gedo Mazo. This would be consistent with Madara who also only died after detaching himself from the Gedo Mazo's life-force, despite having run his natural lifespan already.
#2 I just don't see how any of this debunks Kurama's statement or proves it was retconned. You proved that some people can survive for a short time after Bijuu extraction. How does that debunk what Kurama said? They are not mutually exclusive things.
The bolded part needs to be substantiated. What's your evidence for this being the case?
If you ask me, this actually helps to support my argument further, not disprove it. We know for a fact that Kaguya's only offspring are Hagoromo, Hamura, and in a sense Black Zetsu. But biologically, she only gave birth to Hagoromo and Hamura. To say otherwise would be an unsubstantiated claim.
This means that Kaguya's genetic traits such as her Byakugan and Bone Kekkei Genkai could only be passed on through her two children and their respective descendants, not Kaguya directly.
We know that at the very least the Hyuga are descendants of Hamura, not Hagoromo. This means that my claim was correct. These descendants of Hamura didn't just pop into existence randomly. He had to have left them behind on earth.
So, again, I'm not seeing how any of this really disproves what I said.
I'll speak more on the anime later, but before I move on, I just want to mention that the clan on the moon are part human, part Otsutsuki. Given the fact that many of them had Byakugans, which they could've only gotten through Hamura. They're not just a random assortment of humans he picked up off the side of the road.
Uh, yeah, he did have the Juubi's chakra inside him. I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove, exactly?
Now, regarding the anime's canonicity....
I really don't see this as good or definitive proof that the anime-only episodes that cover these events are canon. "I asked Kishimoto a bunch of questions" is very vague. For one, we have know idea what Kishi was asked about. And I feel it would be exceedingly generous to equate such a statement to Kishi having been heavily involved in most details pertaining to this arc in the anime. First off, that's unrealistic, and would almost certainly have been mentioned if it were the case. And secondly, there's way too many contradictions with the manga for that to logically follow.
Like, off the top of my head, that arc was a mess. You had Hamura saying that he wants to go to the moon to be close to "mother". This means that they knew the Juubi was actually Kaguya, which is NOT the case in the manga. You also had Hagoromo immediately splitting the Juubi's chakra into the 9 Bijuu, which again, contradicts the events of the manga.
So, if the anime version can be wrong about these things, I don't see why it can't be wrong about other things as well, Kishi involvement or not.
Here's the thing. Even if I were to be extremely generous here and say that the above statement is sufficient to canonize the anime-only arc, it wouldn't actually matter.
It would be a secondary (arguably tertiary) canon source with a track record of getting vital details wrong. To use stuff from said source in an attempt to debunk or retcon things stated in the actual primary source is, in my humble opinion, pretty ridiculous. Add to that this supposed canonicity being dubious at best, and I dunno man.....
I'm not very sold here, quite frankly.
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Moving on, I wanna touch on another point.
I feel like it's worth pointing out that most of the issues and contradictions largely seem to stem from the Databooks. And, look, I love the Databooks. I think they're a pretty fantastic source of information for the most part. They are, however, a secondary canon source and should never, ever supersede the manga.
Kurama's statement, to me personally, takes precedent over anything said in the Databook for the simple fact that
A) Kurama was literally there and witnessed the events he's speaking of.
B) It's from the manga, an objectively superior canonical source.
And the same kinda goes for everything else, in my humble estimation. Especially when the timeline of events is so vague and made even more dubious by the fact that these guys have lived for literal millennia and Hagoromo's "near death" phase may as well have taken centuries for all we knew.
Simply put, I have not seen any concrete evidence that objectively debunks the overall thesis of my thread.
Speaking of which....
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This thread sorta hyper-focused on one portion of my overall argument and completely ignored other aspects.
For instance:
And the fact is that, outside of the anime version of events, the only lore for the moon movement present in the manga supports my take. Sooooo, yeah.
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Additionally, I don't believe the OP has actually offered any real reason for why the anime calc should be used over the current one.
Even if literally everything I said previously was incorrect and the OP's assertions were all correct, this issue would still stand. What makes that version better?
In my opinion, Arc's revised version would still be the better options for a few reasons.
Reason #1: Less Assumptions and Room for Error
Yeah, I think this one's pretty self-explanatory. Arc's revised calculation doesn't need to assume things such as timeframe, which the anime version does.
It goes without saying that requiring less assumptions = less room for error. Add to that the anime's dubious canonicity as well as the other contradictions present within it, and I just don't see how one can justify using that version over this one for any other reason than "we want a higher result".
Reason #2: More Consistent with NaruSasu's SPCT
Yeah, this is another issue that came up during the original thread that the OP has not addressed whatsoever.
Hagoromo and Hamura's SPCT being so dramatically superior to Naruto and Sasuke's version makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I believe I put it well in my original thread:
Reason #3: More Consistent in General?
I know that to a lot of you, this argument I'm about to make will seem like some malicious downplaying, or whatever, but it is what it is. It is something worth addressing IMHO.
So, the anime version of the feat is around 78 Zettatons, I believe.
Rasengan Uzuhiko is rated at 632.449 Zettatons.
That's an 8.1x difference for those wondering.
Now, the way we currently scale things makes it so people scale physically to the SPCT as early as Shippuden. Let's use Kaguya as a baseline. Let's say she'd be around 78 Zettatons. Through various scaling chains and multipliers, V2 Jigen scales around 12x higher than her, which would put him at around 936 Zettatons.
Now, it doesn't stop there. The way we currently scale things makes it so 'Hidari > Limitless Code >> V2 Jigen'.
And, uh, yeah, Uzuhiko did this to Hidari.
Now, I'm ngl, I have my own personal gripes with a lot of the scaling I just laid out. But that's neither here nor there because
A) I don't plan to tackle any of it anytime soon, if ever.
B) That is the currently accepted status quo.
So, like it or not, consistency with said status quo is something ya'll have to content with if you want the other calc to be accepted.
If that offends some of you, then oh well, my bad lol.
"But Uzuhiko can just scale above the 936 Zettatons value, it's not actually hard-capped at ~632 Zettatons"
Sure, that's true enough. But I feel like that's putting a band aid on one of the issues I've laid out, and ignoring the rest. Uzuhiko on its own may not be a defeater, but compounded with everything else? I feel like it just adds insult to injury if that makes sense.
So, basically, the main thing is that you guys need to build a compelling argument for why the anime calc trumps the currently used version regardless of all the lore debates discussed previously in this post.
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So, in conclusion, I think the OP has made a solid attempt at debunking my lore-related arguments. However, I do not believe the debunk attempt was all that conclusive. Additionally, I don't think other vital aspects of why the currently used calc is better were addressed at all. So all in all, I am personally in favor of continuing to use the current calc, and as a result do not agree with the thread.
Yeah, so, here's the problem.
I really don't see this as good or definitive proof that the anime-only episodes that cover these events are canon. "I asked Kishimoto a bunch of questions" is very vague. For one, we have know idea what Kishi was asked about. And I feel it would be exceedingly generous to equate such a statement to Kishi having been heavily involved in most details pertaining to this arc in the anime. First off, that's unrealistic, and would almost certainly have been mentioned if it were the case. And secondly, there's way too many contradictions with the manga for that to logically follow.
Like, off the top of my head, that arc was a mess. You had Hamura saying that he wants to go to the moon to be close to "mother". This means that they knew the Juubi was actually Kaguya, which is NOT the case in the manga. You also had Hagoromo immediately splitting the Juubi's chakra into the 9 Bijuu, which again, contradicts the events of the manga.
So, if the anime version can be wrong about these things, I don't see why it can't be wrong about other things as well, Kishi involvement or not.
Here's the thing. Even if I were to be extremely generous here and say that the above statement is sufficient to canonize the anime-only arc, it wouldn't actually matter.
It would be a secondary (arguably tertiary) canon source with a track record of getting vital details wrong. To use stuff from said source in an attempt to debunk or retcon things stated in the actual primary source is, in my humble opinion, pretty ridiculous. Add to that this supposed canonicity being dubious at best, and I dunno man.....
I'm not very sold here, quite frankly.
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Moving on, I wanna touch on another point.
I feel like it's worth pointing out that most of the issues and contradictions largely seem to stem from the Databooks. And, look, I love the Databooks. I think they're a pretty fantastic source of information for the most part. They are, however, a secondary canon source and should never, ever supersede the manga.
Kurama's statement, to me personally, takes precedent over anything said in the Databook for the simple fact that
A) Kurama was literally there and witnessed the events he's speaking of.
B) It's from the manga, an objectively superior canonical source.
And the same kinda goes for everything else, in my humble estimation. Especially when the timeline of events is so vague and made even more dubious by the fact that these guys have lived for literal millennia and Hagoromo's "near death" phase may as well have taken centuries for all we knew.
Simply put, I have not seen any concrete evidence that objectively debunks the overall thesis of my thread.
Speaking of which....
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This thread sorta hyper-focused on one portion of my overall argument and completely ignored other aspects.
For instance:
I believe I built a pretty compelling case for why the creation and moving of the moon are entirely separate feats. This is key, because the anime-based calc is specifically for moving the moon.
And the fact is that, outside of the anime version of events, the only lore for the moon movement present in the manga supports my take. Sooooo, yeah.
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Additionally, I don't believe the OP has actually offered any real reason for why the anime calc should be used over the current one.
Even if literally everything I said previously was incorrect and the OP's assertions were all correct, this issue would still stand. What makes that version better?
In my opinion, Arc's revised version would still be the better options for a few reasons.
Reason #1: Less Assumptions and Room for Error
Yeah, I think this one's pretty self-explanatory. Arc's revised calculation doesn't need to assume things such as timeframe, which the anime version does.
It goes without saying that requiring less assumptions = less room for error. Add to that the anime's dubious canonicity as well as the other contradictions present within it, and I just don't see how one can justify using that version over this one for any other reason than "we want a higher result".
Reason #2: More Consistent with NaruSasu's SPCT
Yeah, this is another issue that came up during the original thread that the OP has not addressed whatsoever.
Hagoromo and Hamura's SPCT being so dramatically superior to Naruto and Sasuke's version makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I believe I put it well in my original thread:
So, yeah.
Reason #3: More Consistent in General?
I know that to a lot of you, this argument I'm about to make will seem like some malicious downplaying, or whatever, but it is what it is. It is something worth addressing IMHO.
So, the anime version of the feat is around 78 Zettatons, I believe.
Rasengan Uzuhiko is rated at 632.449 Zettatons.
That's an 8.1x difference for those wondering.
Now, the way we currently scale things makes it so people scale physically to the SPCT as early as Shippuden. Let's use Kaguya as a baseline. Let's say she'd be around 78 Zettatons. Through various scaling chains and multipliers, V2 Jigen scales around 12x higher than her, which would put him at around 936 Zettatons.
Now, it doesn't stop there. The way we currently scale things makes it so 'Hidari > Limitless Code >> V2 Jigen'.
And, uh, yeah, Uzuhiko did this to Hidari.
Now, I'm ngl, I have my own personal gripes with a lot of the scaling I just laid out. But that's neither here nor there because
A) I don't plan to tackle any of it anytime soon, if ever.
B) That is the currently accepted status quo.
So, like it or not, consistency with said status quo is something ya'll have to content with if you want the other calc to be accepted.
If that offends some of you, then oh well, my bad lol.
"But Uzuhiko can just scale above the 936 Zettatons value, it's not actually hard-capped at ~632 Zettatons"
Sure, that's true enough. But I feel like that's putting a band aid on one of the issues I've laid out, and ignoring the rest. Uzuhiko on its own may not be a defeater, but compounded with everything else? I feel like it just adds insult to injury if that makes sense.
So, basically, the main thing is that you guys need to build a compelling argument for why the anime calc trumps the currently used version regardless of all the lore debates discussed previously in this post.
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So, in conclusion, I think the OP has made a solid attempt at debunking my lore-related arguments. However, I do not believe the debunk attempt was all that conclusive. Additionally, I don't think other vital aspects of why the currently used calc is better were addressed at all. So all in all, I am personally in favor of continuing to use the current calc, and as a result do not agree with the thread.
That's about all I've got to say. Like I said before, I'm not very interested in this thread, so to be completely upfront here, don't expect me to engage in extended back and forths on this moving forward. I just made this post because many people were waiting to hear what I had to say before meaningfully engaging with the thread, and also because it's specifically addressing a thread I had made previously. So I felt compelled to respond. But I feel like I've said pretty much all I wanted to.
If something truly requires me to respond, I will ig, but otherwise, this should be it from me.
I'll now tag the peeps who were either waiting on my response or should be interested in this. I leave the rest in your capable hands, lads!
@Damage3245 @LordTracer @Arc7Kuroi @Shadowbokunohero @Deceived3596
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Welp, show's over.
Y'all were that close to returning the verse to 5B though. But that's about what I expected.
Great effort from the OP still, and great rebuttal from Slayer.
Y'all were that close to returning the verse to 5B though. But that's about what I expected.
Great effort from the OP still, and great rebuttal from Slayer.
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I smelled this coming all the way in Tuesday
But in the end, a much needed evaluation thanks for your time slayer
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Well, we still have two mods in agreement. Unless they reverse their votes, it will still stand.
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I'll go through the post in a few hours.
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We should most certainly used Arc's Moon movement calc
Hurling the moon super fast is a planetary feat
this is a lore accurate feat of Hagoromo
it is not competing with the moon hurl feat, both are actual canon events, if anything both should be included, so the argument changes from "why should we take x calc instead of y" to "x and y feat are both canon occurrences and since the anime has canonicity support as well as the way as how timeframes can be derived off of anime adaptations as per the previous reasoning they should be allowed to keep this.
The Moon Shenanigans have three completely separate calculable things occurring :
1) Creation of the Moon (Direct Statement)
2) Setting Rotation (By Product)
3) Transferring at high velocities (Direct Statement)
Toneri cutting the moon in half and sending it's halves flying calcs to 80~200 exatons but to avoid variables we can just lowball him to 29.6 exatons for overcoming the moon's GBE.....but we don't because both occurrences do not clash with each other and when allowed to have reasonable timeframe, mass and moved distance it should be perfectly reasonable to use that calc
I can chuck the moon to earth and wipe out the surface in 5 seconds, which is at least multi cont sure but there is a much bigger exertion of force done by my KE that's going unaccounted for, that my friends is downplay.
Conclusion : If the variables are confirmable there should be no reason to unnecessarily lowball and avoid calculating the feats and such a stance is just rooted in ignorance
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What does the original Japanese say for that?
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Okay - just because I'm pretty sure that doesn't mandate a minimum threshold of kinetic energy.
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Naruto #647 Raws
The key word used here 飛ばされた meaning To Shoot | To Launch | To Send Flying | To HurlThe Moon is shot into space. We know it's done at an incredibly fast rate, that's why this wiki has allowed assumed timeframes to be used to calc the feat in the past before Arc brought in his version, even the lower ends of the feats calced incredibly high into L5B, massively above the 845.9 exaton value the rotation calc has. It is it's own feat that can coexist along side
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Reason #3: More Consistent in General?
I know that to a lot of you, this argument I'm about to make will seem like some malicious downplaying, or whatever, but it is what it is. It is something worth addressing IMHO.
So, the anime version of the feat is around 78 Zettatons, I believe.
Rasengan Uzuhiko is rated at 632.449 Zettatons.
That's an 8.1x difference for those wondering.
Now, the way we currently scale things makes it so people scale physically to the SPCT as early as Shippuden. Let's use Kaguya as a baseline. Let's say she'd be around 78 Zettatons. Through various scaling chains and multipliers, V2 Jigen scales around 12x higher than her, which would put him at around 936 Zettatons.
Now, it doesn't stop there. The way we currently scale things makes it so 'Hidari > Limitless Code >> V2 Jigen'.
And, uh, yeah, Uzuhiko did this to Hidari.
Now, I'm ngl, I have my own personal gripes with a lot of the scaling I just laid out. But that's neither here nor there because
A) I don't plan to tackle any of it anytime soon, if ever.
B) That is the currently accepted status quo.
So, like it or not, consistency with said status quo is something ya'll have to content with if you want the other calc to be accepted.
If that offends some of you, then oh well, my bad lol.
Uzuhiko Section
This is not a status quo, nothing is officially accepted for Uzuhiko minus it's "at least" value from arc's calcIt was unofficially decided that it might soft cap the verse and then unofficially decided we don't know enough to say it hard caps the verse.
Every-time massive upgrades are proposed we are always required to present concrete and explicitly precise evidence and arguments, none of the vague stuff is ever allowed and is dismissed quickly. So any downgrades/Caps on the God Tiers should be held to the same standard & not be allowed to pass based on flimsy statements.
Anime Section
While it is true the anime has its issues, many important lore based stuff was presented onto them including the silhouettes of momoshiki, kinshiki and urashiki, this was also aired after The Last and similar time to the Boruto movie, times when he was involved alongside the studio, based on the otsutsuki trio's involvement and Kishi's close connections we know he relayed crucial lore information so the stuff about hamura moving to the moon and Hagoromo not doing the feat solo in his death bed state as they are major narrative points will be the truth.
Kishimoto has retconned his own stuff before so using those to disregard the studio that's been producing the anime with his intentions in mind is wrong.The Minor stuff you can disregard as non canon contradictions/retcons and we will be using the anime feat simply because it's the only adaptation.
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Completely agreeWe should most certainly used Arc's Moon movement calc
Hurling the moon super fast is a planetary feat
this is a lore accurate feat of Hagoromo
the statements do not say setting rotations, Hagoromo is credited with blasting the moon that requires ridiculous amounts of kinetic energy and a much stronger feat than setting of rotations which is a byproduct of the moon hurl feat, as a direct statement, the feat that has more narrative significance & higher importance
it is not competing with the moon hurl feat, both are actual canon events, if anything both should be included, so the argument changes from "why should we take x calc instead of y" to "x and y feat are both canon occurrences and since the anime has canonicity support as well as the way as how timeframes can be derived off of anime adaptations as per the previous reasoning they should be allowed to keep this.
The Moon Shenanigans have three completely separate calculable things occurring :
1) Creation of the Moon (Direct Statement)
2) Setting Rotation (By Product)
3) Transferring at high velocities (Direct Statement)
Toneri cutting the moon in half and sending it's halves flying calcs to 80~200 exatons but to avoid variables we can just lowball him to 29.6 exatons for overcoming the moon's GBE.....but we don't because both occurrences do not clash with each other and when allowed to have reasonable timeframe, mass and moved distance it should be perfectly reasonable to use that calc
I can chuck the moon to earth and wipe out the surface in 5 seconds, which is at least multi cont sure but there is a much bigger exertion of force done by my KE that's going unaccounted for, that my friends is downplay.
Conclusion : If the variables are confirmable there should be no reason to unnecessarily lowball and avoid calculating the feats and such a stance is just rooted in ignorance
Godernet
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Let’s not turn this into another Uzuhiko debate
That was only a side point to the main issues that Slayer had with the CRT and shouldn’t be focused like it’s the main argument.
not to mention I don’t think anyone on either sides stance on Uzuhiko will be shifted by any kind of debate on it here.
That was only a side point to the main issues that Slayer had with the CRT and shouldn’t be focused like it’s the main argument.
not to mention I don’t think anyone on either sides stance on Uzuhiko will be shifted by any kind of debate on it here.
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Yeah I won’t write essays talking about the jutsu I just wanted to quickly dismiss it before anyone can try to claim it’s a valid defeater
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Ran out of time tonight, so will have to give an evaluation tomorrow.
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I feel like Tomato should get his final say before votes are called
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I’m not saying finalize votes now, I’m saying get the momentum going. Also, if we wanted to play the “for the sake of fairness” card the opposition should get the last post since the support had the first post, that would ensure an equal amount of opportunity for both sides to respond. But truthfully that doesn’t really matter, I don’t think slayer plans on commenting again since he dumped the work off on his goons
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I just wanted a chance for him to say something cuz I think he has one or two things left to throw and you can have the last say afterwards as one of slayer’s chosen “goons”
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I'll give this thread a deeper look tomorrow. I haven't read either the OP or Slayer's refutation all that much, so until then, I'll remain neutral on the thread's validity.
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Okay, I was super busy so I couldn't fully think of how to refute
But looking back at how this is going, I'll leave my opinions
First of all, thanks Slayer for giving your opinion, I already felt like this thread was going nowhere, so thanks for your participation (PS: I already deleted my hate and anger letter because it wasn't relevant xD)
Okay, now I'm going to give my opinion and answer the questions posed
Why did I only focus on the narrative and not explain the time frame is better than the other?
Well because first I wanted to show my position on why it doesn't seem to make sense for Hamura to stay on Earth when the fight ended and in fact I wanted to clarify my point
As we understand it, the manga shows that Hagoromo after Kaguya's defeat had his children, Indra and Ashura, who were the focus. What did I want to say there? Well, as the databooks indicate, Hagoromo stayed on Earth to form the Ninshu (In fact, this is what the movie The Last says, but for some reason in the original thread it was taken that "Hamura aged slower" Which was my point to present because the movie had few animation errors) Pointing out that as the manga says, the Moon was in its place
Now with the next point, well I have no problem, because as the good friend Ghostimuscrime pointed out we can take the 3 different feats
I mean, he showed a scan where he literally indicates that Hagoromo made kinetic energy (Even if we take that it is Obito's statement, that is seen as evidenced in the anime, where the moon is in its orbit, or by how Toneri is able to move it)
We can easily take it as:
Regarding what I meant by "Hagoromo didn't have the Gedo Mazo" it could very well be a plot hole or error
I mean, I think I exaggerated when I said it was a retcon, because come on, the databooks indicate that the Gedo Mazo was already on the Moon and Hagoromo stayed on Earth, that's even why I mentioned that Hagoromo was left like that, if Hamura really stayed on Earth until Hagoromo was on the verge of death, wouldn't there be some legend suggesting that the Hyuga are related to Hagoromo?
I mean, we have statements that the Senju and Uchiha are descendants of them, including distant relatives like Ginkaku and Kinkaku. Isn't it a plot hole that if Hamura was on Earth, sharing with Hagoromo, he didn't have a legend? I mean, I understand that Hagoromo went down in history as the Sage of the 6 paths and creator of Ninshu, and that Kaguya has been forgotten over time according to the Databook
I mean, there goes another thing I have in doubt. Seriously, did Hagoromo not know that Kaguya and the Juubi were the same?
I mean, when he talked to Naruto he went from "My mother was a tyrant and gave birth to me and my brother" to "We wanted to atone for the sins committed by our mother by facing the Juubi"
Isn't it strange that Hagoromo omitted the part about what happened to his mother?
Or rather, how did Hagoromo know that they faced his mother? There is no context as to how he knew, he just seems to know and that's it
As you can see, the story is full of holes, especially in the part about "Kurama said that Hagoromo had the Gedo Mazo" which is quite contradictory with what we saw in The Last and what the Databooks say
But looking back at how this is going, I'll leave my opinions
First of all, thanks Slayer for giving your opinion, I already felt like this thread was going nowhere, so thanks for your participation (PS: I already deleted my hate and anger letter because it wasn't relevant xD)
Okay, now I'm going to give my opinion and answer the questions posed
Why did I only focus on the narrative and not explain the time frame is better than the other?
Well because first I wanted to show my position on why it doesn't seem to make sense for Hamura to stay on Earth when the fight ended and in fact I wanted to clarify my point
As we understand it, the manga shows that Hagoromo after Kaguya's defeat had his children, Indra and Ashura, who were the focus. What did I want to say there? Well, as the databooks indicate, Hagoromo stayed on Earth to form the Ninshu (In fact, this is what the movie The Last says, but for some reason in the original thread it was taken that "Hamura aged slower" Which was my point to present because the movie had few animation errors) Pointing out that as the manga says, the Moon was in its place
Now with the next point, well I have no problem, because as the good friend Ghostimuscrime pointed out we can take the 3 different feats
I mean, he showed a scan where he literally indicates that Hagoromo made kinetic energy (Even if we take that it is Obito's statement, that is seen as evidenced in the anime, where the moon is in its orbit, or by how Toneri is able to move it)
We can easily take it as:
- Creation of the SCPT
- Rotational movement (I prefer to say gravitational, because we used the same method for Naruto and Sasuke's feat)
- Kinetic movement (To move a mass of that magnitude requires considerable kinetic energy, not only (gravitational)
Regarding what I meant by "Hagoromo didn't have the Gedo Mazo" it could very well be a plot hole or error
I mean, I think I exaggerated when I said it was a retcon, because come on, the databooks indicate that the Gedo Mazo was already on the Moon and Hagoromo stayed on Earth, that's even why I mentioned that Hagoromo was left like that, if Hamura really stayed on Earth until Hagoromo was on the verge of death, wouldn't there be some legend suggesting that the Hyuga are related to Hagoromo?
I mean, we have statements that the Senju and Uchiha are descendants of them, including distant relatives like Ginkaku and Kinkaku. Isn't it a plot hole that if Hamura was on Earth, sharing with Hagoromo, he didn't have a legend? I mean, I understand that Hagoromo went down in history as the Sage of the 6 paths and creator of Ninshu, and that Kaguya has been forgotten over time according to the Databook
I mean, there goes another thing I have in doubt. Seriously, did Hagoromo not know that Kaguya and the Juubi were the same?
I mean, when he talked to Naruto he went from "My mother was a tyrant and gave birth to me and my brother" to "We wanted to atone for the sins committed by our mother by facing the Juubi"
Isn't it strange that Hagoromo omitted the part about what happened to his mother?
Or rather, how did Hagoromo know that they faced his mother? There is no context as to how he knew, he just seems to know and that's it
As you can see, the story is full of holes, especially in the part about "Kurama said that Hagoromo had the Gedo Mazo" which is quite contradictory with what we saw in The Last and what the Databooks say
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One final thing I wish to add on (I’m done I swear)
The argument of secondary canon being unable to override manga even if it’s published later is utter cheeks lol
You have a novel or databook written under the supervision/extreme involvement of the writer it holds as much weight as the manga itself because….its by the same guy Even the manga Kishi never gets his own say, he always has to align with what the editors allow after long debates, so compared to that where stuff like the last which I think is fully written and designed by Kishi, the databooks and novels that have his heavy involvement shouldn’t be dismissed in favor of the older manga material. The Momoshiki arc in the anime is way more canon than the manga movie and novel simply because it’s the latest version with Kishi involvement and the most expanded version so if need be it could potentially even contradict the manga as it holds the authors latest intentions in mind, remember we are here to extract truthful information above anything else
The argument of secondary canon being unable to override manga even if it’s published later is utter cheeks lol
You have a novel or databook written under the supervision/extreme involvement of the writer it holds as much weight as the manga itself because….its by the same guy Even the manga Kishi never gets his own say, he always has to align with what the editors allow after long debates, so compared to that where stuff like the last which I think is fully written and designed by Kishi, the databooks and novels that have his heavy involvement shouldn’t be dismissed in favor of the older manga material. The Momoshiki arc in the anime is way more canon than the manga movie and novel simply because it’s the latest version with Kishi involvement and the most expanded version so if need be it could potentially even contradict the manga as it holds the authors latest intentions in mind, remember we are here to extract truthful information above anything else
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I've gone through UchihaSlayer's response to the OP, and so far I'm more convinced by his post than the arguments of the OP or the responses to him.
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So right now we have 2 in favor and 2 against
Though considering the 2 staff votes in favor were done before Slayer's counterargument, might be worthwhile to call them again;
Effing same
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I haven't fully read OP and the counterarguments yet. Will give my thoughts in a bit.
Though considering the 2 staff votes in favor were done before Slayer's counterargument, might be worthwhile to call them again;
@DarkDragonMedeus @Catzlaflame can you read the following if you are able to?This is what ya'll have been waiting for, but as they say, be careful what you wish for.
Before I begin, I just wanna take a moment to address the OP real quick. Honestly, mate, kudos to you. Seriously. For a relatively new member with little experience, you produced a rather high quality CRT on the whole. So while we may be on opposing sides of this particular argument, I don't want that to discourage you from making more CRTs in the future, regardless of how this one pans out in the end.
With that being said...
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Okay, lemme break this down.
Two things here jump at me immediately.
#1. Madara's narration never asserted that Kaguya was human.
#2. Hagoromo did not know that Kaguya was the Ten Tails, so how would he even include that in the Stone Tablet? So that's not really a knock on its accuracy.
Beyond that, it's important to note that Uchiha Stone tablet was written by Hagoromo for his descendants specifically. Namely the Uchiha Clan/Indra's bloodline. Its purpose was to guide them, so it's by no means meant to be some comprehensive history lesson. It omitting certain details doesn't necessarily mean that what it does contain is wrong by default.
A better argument to attack its legitimacy would be that Black Zetsu fiddled with it a bit to manipulate the Uchiha clan into manifesting a Rinnegan; however, that bit really has nothing to do with moon creation, sending the moon to space, Hamura, or any of that stuff really. Like, BZ gains nothing by making up that Hagoromo hurled the moon into orbit.
Also, from a "meta" perspective, the fact of the matter is that Hamura was simply just not a thing for most of Naruto's run, well into the War Arc even. He was something that Kishimoto awkwardly inserted into the story very late into the game for the sake of The Last's story. He was an afterthought of the highest order lol.
So, in my personal opinion, ignoring most of the series' lore and narratives just because they failed to retroactively include a character that Kishimoto simply hadn't thought of yet isn't the way to go. Perhaps in cases where there's severe contradictions, sure. But as I'll be explaining further, I do not think what Obito said here is really all that contradictory at all.
Finally, I would like to point out that me using Obito's statement was to support a greater point, which is that the creation of the moon and the sending of said moon to orbit are separate feats. I'll delve into that later on in my response, but this is something the OP has simply failed to address at all.
So, yeah, frankly, I'm not seeing any particularly good reason to dismiss Obito's statement inherently.
I will concede to Hamura inheriting the clan's leadership right after (or at least not too long after) the battle against Ten Tails. It was a pretty minor supporting point anyway, and doesn't really affect much by itself.
However, I'm not so convinced regarding them moving to the moon immediately afterwards.
I asked my good friend @Shadowbokunohero and they said the following regarding this statement:
Meaning that it's describing two separate events that have an undisclosed timeframe between them, rather than the two things happening simultaneously.
This interpretation is also consistent with some other translations I saw, including the one from Narutoversity, which is what I based my initial stance on.
So it's more like:
Hamura and Hagoromo seal away Ten Tails > Hamura becomes clan leader > undisclosed amount of time passes > Hamura and clan move to the moon.
You make a good point here. Allow me to offer a counterpoint of my own, though.
Even if I were to agree that the clan and Hamura migrated to the moon right after, or soon after, the battle against Ten Tails, that by itself doesn't really matter all that much.
As I have argued in my original thread, the feats of creating the moon and hurling the moon into orbit are different feats. This is something you have simply not countered or even addressed in any meaningful way. As such, I feel compelled to proceed as though that stance is the correct and accepted one, which it is.
With that in mind, Hamura and co could have migrated to the satellite hovering above the planet right after the battle and the overall assertions of my thread would still hold true. More on this later.
I'm going to mostly ignore this section because The Last is already accepted as canon on the wiki, pretty irrefutably. No one is really attacking its canonicity, least of all me.
That being said, the movie does absolutely have many issues and inconsistencies that are tied to its production issues and what have you. The issues exist, we just sorta ignore them because, well, what else can we do? My philosophy with inconsistent things is to simply take what works, and ignore what doesn't.
I'm not sure how this is supposed to contradict Kurama's statement, since he also said that Hagoromo lived for quite some time after he scattered the Bijuu.
Keep in mind, Hagoromo and Hamura have lived for well over 3000 years at the very least. So Hagoromo may as well have lived 100 years (or even longer than that) after he scattered the Bijuu, and he'd still technically speaking be "nearing the end of his life" relative to his gargantuan lifespan. So, yes, my timeline of events could actually still work even with all of these factors in mind.
I don't believe that the Minato one-shot was ever confirmed to have taken place during the 3rd Shinobi World War. We don't have a concrete timeline for when the one-shot took place. Correct me if I'm wrong though, of course.
It was stated to be thanks to the Gedo Mazo, pretty explicitly.
Kushina was going to die, and the same goes for Naruto if not for some outside interference. So I'm not sure how this proves anything. Hagoromo lived for (at the very least) several months after the Bijuu were extracted. That's substantially longer than these two would've lived on.
Again, Madara died quite literally moments after, so like.....
Yeah, like, I'm just not convinced by this argument whatsoever.
Two problems, yeah?
#1 All of the examples you brought up are of people who were definitely going to die, sooner or later. Their enhanced life-forces made them cling to life for a bit longer, yes, but their deaths were seen as inevitable. Compare this to Hagoromo, who according to Kurama lived for an extended period of time post-Bijuu extraction, and it's just night and day. Hell, one could safely interpret Kurama's statement to mean that Hagoromo actually recovered after the several months of being extremely weakened, and only died after extracting the Gedo Mazo. This would be consistent with Madara who also only died after detaching himself from the Gedo Mazo's life-force, despite having run his natural lifespan already.
#2 I just don't see how any of this debunks Kurama's statement or proves it was retconned. You proved that some people can survive for a short time after Bijuu extraction. How does that debunk what Kurama said? They are not mutually exclusive things.
The bolded part needs to be substantiated. What's your evidence for this being the case?
If you ask me, this actually helps to support my argument further, not disprove it. We know for a fact that Kaguya's only offspring are Hagoromo, Hamura, and in a sense Black Zetsu. But biologically, she only gave birth to Hagoromo and Hamura. To say otherwise would be an unsubstantiated claim.
This means that Kaguya's genetic traits such as her Byakugan and Bone Kekkei Genkai could only be passed on through her two children and their respective descendants, not Kaguya directly.
We know that at the very least the Hyuga are descendants of Hamura, not Hagoromo. This means that my claim was correct. These descendants of Hamura didn't just pop into existence randomly. He had to have left them behind on earth.
So, again, I'm not seeing how any of this really disproves what I said.
I'll speak more on the anime later, but before I move on, I just want to mention that the clan on the moon are part human, part Otsutsuki. Given the fact that many of them had Byakugans, which they could've only gotten through Hamura. They're not just a random assortment of humans he picked up off the side of the road.
Uh, yeah, he did have the Juubi's chakra inside him. I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove, exactly?
Now, regarding the anime's canonicity....
Yeah, so, here's the problem.
I really don't see this as good or definitive proof that the anime-only episodes that cover these events are canon. "I asked Kishimoto a bunch of questions" is very vague. For one, we have know idea what Kishi was asked about. And I feel it would be exceedingly generous to equate such a statement to Kishi having been heavily involved in most details pertaining to this arc in the anime. First off, that's unrealistic, and would almost certainly have been mentioned if it were the case. And secondly, there's way too many contradictions with the manga for that to logically follow.
Like, off the top of my head, that arc was a mess. You had Hamura saying that he wants to go to the moon to be close to "mother". This means that they knew the Juubi was actually Kaguya, which is NOT the case in the manga. You also had Hagoromo immediately splitting the Juubi's chakra into the 9 Bijuu, which again, contradicts the events of the manga.
So, if the anime version can be wrong about these things, I don't see why it can't be wrong about other things as well, Kishi involvement or not.
Here's the thing. Even if I were to be extremely generous here and say that the above statement is sufficient to canonize the anime-only arc, it wouldn't actually matter.
It would be a secondary (arguably tertiary) canon source with a track record of getting vital details wrong. To use stuff from said source in an attempt to debunk or retcon things stated in the actual primary source is, in my humble opinion, pretty ridiculous. Add to that this supposed canonicity being dubious at best, and I dunno man.....
I'm not very sold here, quite frankly.
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Moving on, I wanna touch on another point.
I feel like it's worth pointing out that most of the issues and contradictions largely seem to stem from the Databooks. And, look, I love the Databooks. I think they're a pretty fantastic source of information for the most part. They are, however, a secondary canon source and should never, ever supersede the manga.
Kurama's statement, to me personally, takes precedent over anything said in the Databook for the simple fact that
A) Kurama was literally there and witnessed the events he's speaking of.
B) It's from the manga, an objectively superior canonical source.
And the same kinda goes for everything else, in my humble estimation. Especially when the timeline of events is so vague and made even more dubious by the fact that these guys have lived for literal millennia and Hagoromo's "near death" phase may as well have taken centuries for all we knew.
Simply put, I have not seen any concrete evidence that objectively debunks the overall thesis of my thread.
Speaking of which....
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This thread sorta hyper-focused on one portion of my overall argument and completely ignored other aspects.
For instance:
I believe I built a pretty compelling case for why the creation and moving of the moon are entirely separate feats. This is key, because the anime-based calc is specifically for moving the moon.
And the fact is that, outside of the anime version of events, the only lore for the moon movement present in the manga supports my take. Sooooo, yeah.
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Additionally, I don't believe the OP has actually offered any real reason for why the anime calc should be used over the current one.
Even if literally everything I said previously was incorrect and the OP's assertions were all correct, this issue would still stand. What makes that version better?
In my opinion, Arc's revised version would still be the better options for a few reasons.
Reason #1: Less Assumptions and Room for Error
Yeah, I think this one's pretty self-explanatory. Arc's revised calculation doesn't need to assume things such as timeframe, which the anime version does.
It goes without saying that requiring less assumptions = less room for error. Add to that the anime's dubious canonicity as well as the other contradictions present within it, and I just don't see how one can justify using that version over this one for any other reason than "we want a higher result".
Reason #2: More Consistent with NaruSasu's SPCT
Yeah, this is another issue that came up during the original thread that the OP has not addressed whatsoever.
Hagoromo and Hamura's SPCT being so dramatically superior to Naruto and Sasuke's version makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I believe I put it well in my original thread:
So, yeah.
Reason #3: More Consistent in General?
I know that to a lot of you, this argument I'm about to make will seem like some malicious downplaying, or whatever, but it is what it is. It is something worth addressing IMHO.
So, the anime version of the feat is around 78 Zettatons, I believe.
Rasengan Uzuhiko is rated at 632.449 Zettatons.
That's an 8.1x difference for those wondering.
Now, the way we currently scale things makes it so people scale physically to the SPCT as early as Shippuden. Let's use Kaguya as a baseline. Let's say she'd be around 78 Zettatons. Through various scaling chains and multipliers, V2 Jigen scales around 12x higher than her, which would put him at around 936 Zettatons.
Now, it doesn't stop there. The way we currently scale things makes it so 'Hidari > Limitless Code >> V2 Jigen'.
And, uh, yeah, Uzuhiko did this to Hidari.
Now, I'm ngl, I have my own personal gripes with a lot of the scaling I just laid out. But that's neither here nor there because
A) I don't plan to tackle any of it anytime soon, if ever.
B) That is the currently accepted status quo.
So, like it or not, consistency with said status quo is something ya'll have to content with if you want the other calc to be accepted.
If that offends some of you, then oh well, my bad lol.
"But Uzuhiko can just scale above the 936 Zettatons value, it's not actually hard-capped at ~632 Zettatons"
Sure, that's true enough. But I feel like that's putting a band aid on one of the issues I've laid out, and ignoring the rest. Uzuhiko on its own may not be a defeater, but compounded with everything else? I feel like it just adds insult to injury if that makes sense.
So, basically, the main thing is that you guys need to build a compelling argument for why the anime calc trumps the currently used version regardless of all the lore debates discussed previously in this post.
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So, in conclusion, I think the OP has made a solid attempt at debunking my lore-related arguments. However, I do not believe the debunk attempt was all that conclusive. Additionally, I don't think other vital aspects of why the currently used calc is better were addressed at all. So all in all, I am personally in favor of continuing to use the current calc, and as a result do not agree with the thread.
That's about all I've got to say. Like I said before, I'm not very interested in this thread, so to be completely upfront here, don't expect me to engage in extended back and forths on this moving forward. I just made this post because many people were waiting to hear what I had to say before meaningfully engaging with the thread, and also because it's specifically addressing a thread I had made previously. So I felt compelled to respond. But I feel like I've said pretty much all I wanted to.
If something truly requires me to respond, I will ig, but otherwise, this should be it from me.
I'll now tag the peeps who were either waiting on my response or should be interested in this. I leave the rest in your capable hands, lads!
@Damage3245 @LordTracer @Arc7Kuroi @Shadowbokunohero @Deceived3596
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I haven't fully read OP and the counterarguments yet. Will give my thoughts in a bit.
