Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

New information you might appreciate: According to the original thread that resulted in the wiki's standard horizon distance of 20km and therefore led to the downgrade of Kushala's feat, the given horizon distances are a low end of 20km on hazy days and a high end of 50km in very clear conditions, and, well... I think we can all agree that the blue sky in the distance is clear as hell, aside from clouds below. So we might be able to recalc Kushala (and therefore all base Elders) using a radius of 50 km, rather than 20 km.

(50000/4.257)^2*1/12*(9900*pi*50000^2*1.003) = 8.96556103089e20, which is...

Barely above baseline low end High 6-C. Welp, better than absolute baseline.

Holy ****.

 

[Sigilavox]

I like myself some damage so I've been running 7 ranks of Attack Boost and Crit Eye along with WEX for nigh 100% for those juicy hits. My attack stat is often around 500 when Offensive Guard isn't active which then its around 600.

Nice. And damn, is offensive guard really that good? Never used it in World, but now that I think about it, GS has a counter... hmm. I'll try that out, actually.

Also, on "exceptionally clear days" the horizon is 280km which skyrockets Kushala to 210 Teratons, or High 6-B, but that's a real hail mary and the cutscene isn't so overwhelmingly clear that I'd see that being accepted. But it's food for thought, at least. I'll do a Calc for all three ends and then post it here.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Nice. And damn, is offensive guard really that good? Never used it in World, but now that I think about it, GS has a counter... hmm. I'll try that out, actually.

Yeah the counter is INSANE. You can parry the starting roar to deal like 5k damage then it'll enrage, roar again and boom free 10k in 5 seconds.

 

[Sigilavox]

Yeah the counter is INSANE. You can parry the starting roar to deal like 5k damage then it'll enrage, roar again and boom free 10k in 5 seconds.

What the hell, that's actually nuts! I'll try it out, but I don't think I'll stick with it if it really is that powerful, lol.

 

[Sigilavox]

I drew up the Kushala horizon recalc using the wiki's given horizon parameters, using a slightly different speed I got from my video editing software.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I drew up the Kushala horizon recalc using the wiki's given horizon parameters, using a slightly different speed I got from my video editing software.

AYO! Almost 2× Baseline High 6-C! Based!

 

[JoshSSJGod]

So I got the result of that Diablos calc and whew.

Result is 8-A: 183.76 tons

This would obviously scale to the Rider and their monsties but also could scale to the mainline monsters since the High 8-C feat is either very casual (Lagiacrus who took no damage from destroying that pillar) or monsters who have those feats get stomped by monsters of this tier (Barroth getting obliterated by Diablos). Also considering that the main threats (as commented on by Reverto) of this point of the game is Monoblos and Diablos with the game giving cutscenes to each to build 'em up then it would be safe to say that Diablos tier monsters would scale to it.

 

[Sigilavox]

So I got the result of that Diablos calc and whew.

Result is 8-A: 183.76 tons

This would obviously scale to the Rider and their monsties but also could scale to the mainline monsters since the High 8-C feat is either very casual (Lagiacrus who took no damage from destroying that pillar) or monsters who have those feats get stomped by monsters of this tier (Barroth getting obliterated by Diablos). Also considering that the main threats (as commented on by Reverto) of this point of the game is Monoblos and Diablos with the game giving cutscenes to each to build 'em up then it would be safe to say that Diablos tier monsters would scale to it.

Nice. 8-A is one of my more liked tiers for some reason. I'm a bit uncertain about how well it would fit mainlines since it's a kinship move (and hence draws upon the empowering vibes of kinship), but that's a solid feat right there. The Diablos kinship is one of the better ones, I think, and Monoblos is just hilarious. Agreed on wild Monoblos/Diablos being big kahuna levels during the midpoint of the game.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

New information you might appreciate: According to the original thread that resulted in the wiki's standard horizon distance of 20km and therefore led to the downgrade of Kushala's feat, the given horizon distances are a low end of 20km on hazy days and a high end of 50km in very clear conditions, and, well... I think we can all agree that the blue sky in the distance is clear as hell, aside from clouds below. So we might be able to recalc Kushala (and therefore all base Elders) using a radius of 50 km, rather than 20 km.

(50000/4.257)^2*1/12*(9900*pi*50000^2*1.003) = 8.96556103089e20, which is...

Barely above baseline low end High 6-C. Welp, better than absolute baseline.

Niiiiice, thats good enough

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So I got the result of that Diablos calc and whew.

Result is 8-A: 183.76 tons

This would obviously scale to the Rider and their monsties but also could scale to the mainline monsters since the High 8-C feat is either very casual (Lagiacrus who took no damage from destroying that pillar) or monsters who have those feats get stomped by monsters of this tier (Barroth getting obliterated by Diablos). Also considering that the main threats (as commented on by Reverto) of this point of the game is Monoblos and Diablos with the game giving cutscenes to each to build 'em up then it would be safe to say that Diablos tier monsters would scale to it.

8-A Diablos is Based.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hey Sigi, hope you don't kind but I took the scans you brought about Tempered Monsters and put them all in the same Imgur Album so they'd be easier to link for any further times we need them.

 

[Sigilavox]

Not super sure about the blue scoutfly evidence anymore, as brought up in DMUA's CRT thread. While it may have been evidence back in base world, Iceborne contradicts it fairly clearly with Rajang, Furious Rajang, Savage Deviljho, and Raging Brachydios bringing up green scoutflies.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Fatalis's profile looks really ugly with the entire twenty-something line poem in the quote and a huge image spreading across the top, with no images for the subspecies and a huge void of nothingness before you actually get to the stats?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think the poem/top image could be better formatted, yeah.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Does anyone else love the fact that Tempered Deviljho is considered a higher Threat Level than Tempered Bazelgeuse?

Page on Tempered Monsters. They provoke identical threat responses from Scoutflies as Elder Dragons (blue), nothing new but there's that I guess.

 

[Rich987]

Yoo new here, I follow Thread like a ghost and like to stay on top of updates, but I'm not very talkative or have a lot to add to the whole.

Not super sure about the blue scoutfly evidence anymore, as brought up in DMUA's CRT thread. While it may have been evidence back in base world, Iceborne contradicts it fairly clearly with Rajang, Furious Rajang, Savage Deviljho, and Raging Brachydios bringing up green scoutflies.

As for the blue scoutfly evidence, I don't think it should be ruled out, although Iceborne contradicts it, it was still passed down as fact within the base World and in the book as well. If we take into account that Iceborne is just a massive expansion and not a new game that would have the potential to change some things from the previous game, it would make a bit of sense to imagine that this was just put aside to focus on the real content of the expansion that is the new Master Rank, new Monsters and a continuation of the Story Mode.

That would be what I believe..

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Man, the fact that Arch-Tempered Xeno'jiiva and Zorah Magdoros exist and there's that statement for Arch-Tempered Monsters that lumps them all together as Supreme Titans that are difficult to believe are beatable really says a lot.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wait, how the hell did it take me this long to realize that Tigrex doesn't have Keys for it's Molten Subspecies or Grimclaw Deviant Version?

 

[Rich987]

I did a little research on the MH Wiki and it says that Monsters in a temperate state are older monsters that lived for a long time in the new world and because of that they absorbed the Bioenergy of other Elder Dragons, the real reason they became much stronger than theirs. natural version and have a power comparable to an ED to the point of stimulating the scoutfly's Elder Dragon sensor.

Now where this was mentioned in the game, I'll have to do some more research.

 

[Sigilavox]

By the way, my Zorah calc is probably gonna pan out to Low 6-B, which is fine by my metric. It'll still be higher than baseline elders (assuming High 6-C Kushala is accepted) by a factor of 7 to 8, which honestly sorta checks out.

 

[Sigilavox]

Also, at some point I also intend to make a CRT addressing monster intelligence as part of standardization protocols that began with stamina, which... really should be "Low/Average/High Animalistic" rather than "Average" or "High" or "Extremely High" given that, if we're using Dragon Element as a basis for intelligence (which doesn't work out in cases like Odogaron anyways), humans take 100% Dragon Damage, and dragon-weak monsters take 25% to 30% Dragon Damage, at the very most. The smartest monsters are inferior to the average human in terms of this factor, which is really consistent with the fact that they've always been treated as straight-up animals, even Elder Dragons like Zorah or Nergigante, especially as of World.

Fatalis and Safi'jiiva, which are explicitly mentioned as being "far superior to human intelligence" in the Iceborne Dive book, get free passes, but the others shouldn't. The God Serpents from Rise might also get approximately human-level intelligence, but it's really not that compelling of an argument, considering how single-minded and simple they were.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also, at some point I also intend to make a CRT addressing monster intelligence as part of standardization protocols that began with stamina, which... really should be "Low/Average/High Animalistic" rather than "Average" or "High" or "Extremely High" given that, if we're using Dragon Element as a basis for intelligence (which doesn't work out in cases like Odogaron anyways), humans take 100% Dragon Damage, and dragon-weak monsters take 25% to 30% Dragon Damage, at the very most. The smartest monsters are inferior to the average human in terms of this factor, which is really consistent with the fact that they've always been treated as straight-up animals, even Elder Dragons like Zorah or Nergigante, especially as of World.

Fatalis and Safi'jiiva, which are explicitly mentioned as being "far superior to human intelligence" in the Iceborne Dive book, get free passes, but the others shouldn't.

They're definitely High Animalistic at the very least given the fact that they're very clearly shown to be able to showcase emotion as shown in the Witcher Crossover event with the Pukei-Pukei that helps out Geralt and essentially thanks him when he heads back to his own world which is typically something only highly intelligent animals are capable of doing. There's also all the examples of this you can pull from Monster Hunter Stories 1 & 2.

 

[Sigilavox]

They're definitely High Animalistic at the very least given the fact that they're very clearly shown to be able to showcase emotion as shown in the Witcher Crossover event with the Pukei-Pukei that helps out Geralt and essentially thanks him when he heads back to his own world which is typically something only highly intelligent animals are capable of doing. There's also all the examples of this you can pull from Monster Hunter Stories 1 & 2.

Good point. Most of them are probably "High Animalistic", then. Maybe Dragon-resistant ones like Anjanath or Zinogre could be just "Animalistic", but I'd be fine just having everyone at the former rating, and disregarding the Dragon weak = intelligent point entirely, unless someone can get the original source for that.

 

[Sigilavox]

A giant, ultra-rare stone that forms inside an Elder Dragon once in a millennium.

This is the description for the Large Elder Dragon Gem, used to justify Elder Dragons living long lives. I believe we should find another source for longevity here, since the language doesn't actually state that it can only form in an Elder Dragon that lives for millenia; just that this item forms once in a millenium, and that it forms inside an Elder Dragon when it does.

Gaismagorm explicitly is said to live since ancient times, but for the others, we should find a quote from a game stating Elder Dragon longevity. That is all.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

This is the description for the Large Elder Dragon Gem, used to justify Elder Dragons living long lives. I believe we should find another source for longevity here, since the language doesn't actually state that it can only form in an Elder Dragon that lives for millenia; just that this item forms once in a millenium, and that it forms inside an Elder Dragon when it does.

Gaismagorm explicitly is said to live since ancient times, but for the others, we should find a quote from a game stating Elder Dragon longevity. That is all.

Wouldn't that still make it so Elder Dragons can live for that long considering that they can drop multiple gems or the fact that you can get multiple?

 

[Sigilavox]

You can pull multiple Rajang Hearts or more than two "Eyes" from Fatalis and Magnamalo, so no, I don't think so.

 

[Sigilavox]

I'm actually unconvinced we should use material descriptions for anything at all, given how blatantly inaccurate they tend to be in both gameplay terms and in keeping with the rest of what the monster is demonstrated to be capable of, as well as varying so wildly, sometimes on the same monster, it's hilarious.

Tobi-Kadachi Cathode: "More developed than its electrode, and capable of setting the world ablaze."

…Need I say more? This description literally, explicitly says that this item is capable of setting the world ablaze, and it’s from a literal Tobi-Kadachi. Does Tobi-Kadachi have Fire Manipulation? Is Tobi-Kadachi strong enough to electrify the entire planet? I think the answer is, most logically, no, it isn't, rather than bending over backwards as to justify baseline 5-B Monster Hunter with basically zero chance to subsequently diversify the tiers.

Daora Fellwing: "A curious wing that's strong as steel, but soft to the touch. Highly sought after material."

Kushala Daora's wings are as strong as steel. This comes from the creature capable of apparently omnidirectionally exerting nearly 200 gigatons of energy in an instant, or about three thousand Tsar Bombas at once. Suffice to say, the description does not match the creature's capabilities from our wiki's standpoint.

Zinogre Shocker+: "Grants a thunder god's power to gear."

Another matter-of-fact statement that makes zero in-universe sense. No gods exist in the setting on a meta level, and Zinogre isn’t even considered to be a local deity to certain tribes like Akantor or Ukanlos are. It certainly isn't of the same level of power as either of the two, too. Therefore, we can't justify it by being an in-universe statement.

Daora Hardhorn: "A hard, ferocious horn that engulfs everything in a freezing wind on impact."

This might seem like a fine example at first, but in reality, this item explicitly describes something that doesn’t happen in gameplay when it really could. Kushala does not inflict Ice damage on melee attacks, horn or otherwise, nor do its wind pressure attacks inflict Ice when outside of cold maps, and Kushala’s head attacks never inflict wind pressure anyways, “on impact". Nevermind the vagueness of "everything".

Tigrex Shell: "A hard Tigrex shell capable of repelling any impact. Extreme tenacity."

I could have used any number of sources for this point, because like 90% of monster materials have this statement. Yeah yeah, NLF means it's fine, but still. These descriptions aren't exactly scientific.

Glavenus Orb: "A red orb that grows within a flaming bursa. One peek can set even your soul aflame."

And lastly, from Generations Ultimate. I don't like the practice of using statements like these to add abilities and powers where the monsters just don't demonstrate them. The same goes with Alatreon's wings, which can apparently "cut through time, space, and the world" according to its Iceborne incarnation.

You can find any of these item descriptions from Sunbreak, or MHGU and Iceborne for the last couple to verify. So, in essence, material descriptions are not reliable sources of what a monster can and cannot do for scaling and for abilities and powers.

A shame, since Ibushi Hardclaw would confirm country-destroying power (ironically, if we give it baseline Low 6-B, then all of our Elders would still fall within an order of magnitude, which is rather nice honestly): "A claw sharp enough to rend the heavens and powerful enough to destroy a country."

And yet, we cannot pick and choose which item descriptions to use and which we cannot, otherwise we'd be biased against Tobi-Kadachi, and therefore everything stronger than it, like Anjanath, Basarios, Yian Garuga, etc. This isn't a matter of rumor or what "it is said" these things can do, each of these descriptions are straight-up telling you outright. We shouldn't be using any of these for anything regarding our profiles. Though some may be accurate with what other feats and statements do, that doesn't mean all of them. I really think we should just axe the whole category as real evidence altogether.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

I'm actually unconvinced we should use material descriptions for anything at all, given how blatantly inaccurate they tend to be in both gameplay terms and in keeping with the rest of what the monster is demonstrated to be capable of, as well as varying so wildly, sometimes on the same monster, it's hilarious.


…Need I say more? This description literally, explicitly says that this item is capable of setting the world ablaze, and it’s from a literal Tobi-Kadachi. Does Tobi-Kadachi have Fire Manipulation? Is Tobi-Kadachi strong enough to electrify the entire planet? I think the answer is, most logically, no, it isn't, rather than bending over backwards as to justify baseline 5-B Monster Hunter with basically zero chance to subsequently diversify the tiers.

Kushala Daora's wings are as strong as steel. This comes from the creature capable of apparently omnidirectionally exerting nearly 200 gigatons of energy in an instant, or about three thousand Tsar Bombas at once. Suffice to say, the description does not match the creature's capabilities from our wiki's standpoint.

Another matter-of-fact statement that makes zero in-universe sense. No gods exist in the setting on a meta level, and Zinogre isn’t even considered to be a local deity to certain tribes like Akantor or Ukanlos are. It certainly isn't of the same level of power as either of the two, too. Therefore, we can't justify it by being an in-universe statement.

This might seem like a fine example at first, but in reality, this item explicitly describes something that doesn’t happen in gameplay when it really could. Kushala does not inflict Ice damage on melee attacks, horn or otherwise, nor do its wind pressure attacks inflict Ice when outside of cold maps, and Kushala’s head attacks never inflict wind pressure anyways, “on impact". Nevermind the vagueness of "everything".

I could have used any number of sources for this point, because like 90% of monster materials have this statement. Yeah yeah, NLF means it's fine, but still. These descriptions aren't exactly scientific.

And lastly, from Generations Ultimate. I don't like the practice of using statements like these to add abilities and powers where the monsters just don't demonstrate them. The same goes with Alatreon's wings, which can apparently "cut through time, space, and the world" according to its Iceborne incarnation.

You can find any of these item descriptions from Sunbreak, or MHGU and Iceborne for the last couple to verify. So, in essence, material descriptions are not reliable sources of what a monster can and cannot do for scaling and for abilities and powers.

A shame, since Ibushi Hardclaw would confirm country-destroying power (ironically, if we give it baseline Low 6-B, then all of our Elders would still fall within an order of magnitude, which is rather nice honestly): "A claw sharp enough to rend the heavens and powerful enough to destroy a country."

And yet, we cannot pick and choose which item descriptions to use and which we cannot, otherwise we'd be biased against Tobi-Kadachi, and therefore everything stronger than it, like Anjanath, Basarios, Yian Garuga, etc. This isn't a matter of rumor or what "it is said" these things can do, each of these descriptions are straight-up telling you outright. We shouldn't be using any of these for anything regarding our profiles. Though some may be accurate with what other feats and statements do, that doesn't mean all of them. I really think we should just axe the whole category as real evidence altogether.

That would be a horrible idea, outliers are a thing for a reason and this is exactly the scenarios they could be used in. Rise in particular is ton of stuff like this due to it's theatrical speech with monsters (for example, the Malzeno description for it's intro calls it the embodiment of darkness.
If we were to do this, it would become a double standard for the wiki for other verses such as Pokemon which have the similar descriptions (e.g Gardevoir is stated to be able to create Black Holes).

My method on deciding on if a description is hyperbole is if anything is overly dramatic or spiritual for a basic monster without any back up evidence. Exceptions to this happen when something comes up multiple times throughout multiple games without it contradicting anything (for example the Tobi Cathode statement is only in Rise while in World its stated to grant electrical properties which is true). Elder Dragons would have it easier however as due to the supernatural nature they have it is far easier for those statements about them to actually be true. Do remember though that there are simile and metaphors made for them which often use phrases to emphasise something (e.g Kushala's wings being as hard as steel, being as hard as steel is a phrase used to emphasise the strength and durability of something which is true given that Kushala's wings can dish out Tier 6 levels of energy).

 

[Sigilavox]

That would be a horrible idea, outliers are a thing for a reason and this is exactly the scenarios they could be used in. Rise in particular is ton of stuff like this due to it's theatrical speech with monsters (for example, the Malzeno description for it's intro calls it the embodiment of darkness.
If we were to do this, it would become a double standard for the wiki for other verses such as Pokemon which have the similar descriptions (e.g Gardevoir is stated to be able to create Black Holes).

My method on deciding on if a description is hyperbole is if anything is overly dramatic or spiritual for a basic monster without any back up evidence. Exceptions to this happen when something comes up multiple times throughout multiple games without it contradicting anything (for example the Tobi Cathode statement is only in Rise while in World its stated to grant electrical properties which is true). Elder Dragons would have it easier however as due to the supernatural nature they have it is far easier for those statements about them to actually be true. Do remember though that there are simile and metaphors made for them which often use phrases to emphasise something (e.g Kushala's wings being as hard as steel, being as hard as steel is a phrase used to emphasise the strength and durability of something which is true given that Kushala's wings can dish out Tier 6 levels of energy).

Material descriptions are pretty much copy-pasted from previous games with little, if any change, so it's not like these coming from Rise is an issue. World as a whole cut out unique descriptions for all non-title update or Elder monsters anyways, so it's not like Tobi being inconsistent is an issue. Rathalos lost its unique flavor text in World, too, so from the series standpoint Rise is a return to normalcy, with World additions getting their first actual descriptions.

There would be no double standard, because from an in-universe standpoint, Pokedexes are fact, while on the other hand material descriptions vary from meta, to in-universe, to personal, to colloquial, to rumored, to any other of perspectives. No Pokedex entry is considered hyperbole or uses colloquialisms to justify feats from my knowledge like these examples, they're all explicit fact.

Your point about backup evidence I agree with - but that just means we can cut out the middleman and take backup evidence as the evidence with no need to actually use material descriptions at all, which can be from any given standpoint with little consistency as a whole.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Material descriptions are pretty much copy-pasted from previous games with little, if any change, so it's not like these coming from Rise is an issue. World as a whole cut out unique descriptions for all non-title update or Elder monsters anyways, so it's not like Tobi being inconsistent is an issue. Rathalos lost its unique flavor text in World, too, so from the series standpoint Rise is a return to normalcy, with World additions getting their first actual descriptions.

Having just gone through multiple games worth of material descriptions, I can tell you that they're not copy pastes and instead have unique descriptions with few exceptions for each game so World cutting those unique descriptions would actually be incorrect. Nice attention to detail for the devs to do since copy pasting would have been easier. Though the point of what I said was that Rise focuses a lot more on the mystical aspect given how many of it's monsters are based on yokai.

There would be no double standard, because from an in-universe standpoint, Pokedexes are fact, while on the other hand material descriptions vary from meta, to in-universe, to personal, to colloquial, to rumored, to any other of perspectives. No Pokedex entry is considered hyperbole or uses colloquialisms to justify feats from my knowledge like these examples, they're all explicit fact.

I wouldn't exactly say they're ALL fact, it like material descriptions has statements that can be considered NLF such as Tyranitar. They're more similar than ya think.

Your point about backup evidence I agree with - but that just means we can cut out the middleman and take backup evidence as the evidence with no need to actually use material descriptions at all, which can be from any given standpoint with little consistency as a whole.

What? The point of the back up evidence would be to reinforce those description's statements and I used examples of what back up evidence can be but to give more examples consistency of use (like if multiple item descriptions reference the same thing), npc statements which can reinforce the claims or even more simply if its straight up mentioned to be true.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Josh on this one. Just ignore Rise's Bullshit if you have to because World is very literal about most of the item descriptions it gives since that's the whole ******* point of World, to learn everything about all the new monsters by studying them down to the smallest pieces of them.

 

[Sigilavox]

Having just gone through multiple games worth of material descriptions, I can tell you that they're not copy pastes and instead have unique descriptions with few exceptions for each game so World cutting those unique descriptions would actually be incorrect. Nice attention to detail for the devs to do since copy pasting would have been easier. Though the point of what I said was that Rise focuses a lot more on the mystical aspect given how many of it's monsters are based on yokai.

Just ignore Rise's Bullshit if you have to because World is very literal about most of the item descriptions it gives since that's the whole ******* point of World, to learn everything about all the new monsters by studying them down to the smallest pieces of them.

Rathalos Fellwing (MH4U): A top-grade Rathalos wing, removed in full. Such majesty befits the King of the Skies.
Rathalos Fellwing (MHGU): A top-grade Rathalos wing, removed in full. Such majesty befits the King of the Skies.
Rathalos Fellwing (Sunbreak): A top-grade Rathalos wing, removed fully. Such majesty befits the King of the Skies.

Tigrex Hardfang (MH4U): A thick, large Tigrex fang that tore prey into unrecognizable pieces.
Tigrex Hardfang (MHGU): A thick, large Tigrex fang that tore prey into unrecognizable pieces.
Tigrex Hardfang (Sunbreak): A thick, large Tigrex fang that tore prey into unrecognizable pieces.

This is what I meant by pretty much copy pastes. You probably found some exceptions, but there's definitely a trend towards keeping things consistent, especially in bog-standard (non-super rare like gems or game-locked like Afflicted) materials such as an Electrode/Cathode.

In any case, the theatricality of Sunbreak's cast and monster intros have little to do with item descriptions; though the poems are unprecedented and the inspiration for the cast are mythical creatures, there is little, if any evidence that there is a trend of new item descriptions in Sunbreak being any more ludicrous as a whole than what came before. The rest of the Tobi-Kadachi things are quite reasonable, even.

World's item descriptions are the deviation from the norm, and honestly what I'd agree should be taken over every other game's description, if anything, given:

Rathalos Fellwing (MHW): Very rare Rathalos material. Obtained by breaking its wings. Supple, used to craft gear.
Tigrex Hardfang (MHW): Very rare Tigrex material. Obtained by breaking its head. Sharp, used in many weapons.

More boring, sure, but what I can see as the canon explanation. It's literally just a description of its properties, nothing about instantly vaporizing people it touches or heralding the end of the world or what have you.

I wouldn't exactly say they're ALL fact, it like material descriptions has statements that can be considered NLF such as Tyranitar. They're more similar than ya think.

Sure, although I fully admitted NLF was not the main point of my argument. Fair enough about NLF existing in Pokedex entries, but are there any examples of non-NLF Pokedex statements being selectively unused in Pokemon profiles like they are in material descriptions?

What? The point of the back up evidence would be to reinforce those description's statements and I used examples of what back up evidence can be but to give more examples consistency of use (like if multiple item descriptions reference the same thing), npc statements which can reinforce the claims or even more simply if its straight up mentioned to be true.

Sure, I get you. Your position is that:

If there's a monster material statement, and it:

• Is not an outlier
• Is not supernatural without evidence

Then it's fair game to use as evidence for profiles and ability. For example, if a monster shows the ability to kick up whirlwinds with its powers, and a material says it can, then it's fair game. But if a monster has an outlandish material statement with no backup evidence, then we don't use it. But isn't that the same as just... not needing to rely on materials for abilities and scaling?

Perhaps I accidentally stirred up an argument where there should be none; I am fine with materials as backup evidence. If anything, materials are good when clarifying existing feats or character/official statements. Sorry if I misled you.

But I don't think a statement solely coming from a material that is straight-up unsupported like a Glavenus being able to burn one's soul, like a Dalamadur being able to obliterate mountains with a twitch (unless that's stated somewhere official) or shake the entire planet and atmosphere being used as a crutch to lift up a monster that's otherwise never depicted as being able to do so.

I could see the mountain obliteration feat if, in its cutscene, Dalamadur casually collapsed an entire mountain in the distance before the fight or something like that. But the cutscene showcases no such power that couldn't be done by one of far less ability. It checks out that such absurd statements come with Dalamadur y'know, being known only as a fairytale pre-appearance (somehow) and hence supporting statements like that being overexaggerated in-universe. But if material descriptions are the only thing keeping a feat or ability afloat, I don't believe in that.

Like, the Agnaktor Claw+ says:

A claw sharpened by magma so hot it can melt rock. Almost as strong as a volcano itself.

Does that mean every Apex is "almost as strong as a volcano itself"? Probably not.

Essentially, all this really changes atm is that Dalamadur doesn't shake the world, if I recall. Because reasonable materials already line up with evidence, even if they're technically unnecessary then. Those are not what I was arguing against.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Rathalos Fellwing (MH4U): A top-grade Rathalos wing, removed in full. Such majesty befits the King of the Skies.
Rathalos Fellwing (MHGU): A top-grade Rathalos wing, removed in full. Such majesty befits the King of the Skies.
Rathalos Fellwing (Sunbreak): A top-grade Rathalos wing, removed fully. Such majesty befits the King of the Skies.

Tigrex Hardfang (MH4U): A thick, large Tigrex fang that tore prey into unrecognizable pieces.
Tigrex Hardfang (MHGU): A thick, large Tigrex fang that tore prey into unrecognizable pieces.
Tigrex Hardfang (Sunbreak): A thick, large Tigrex fang that tore prey into unrecognizable pieces.

This is what I meant by pretty much copy pastes. You probably found some exceptions, but there's definitely a trend towards keeping things consistent, especially in bog-standard (non-super rare or game-locked like Afflicted) materials such as an Electrode/Cathode. In any case, the theatricality of Sunbreak's cast and monster intros have little to do with item descriptions; though the poems are unprecedented and the inspiration for the cast are mythical creatures, there is little, if any evidence that these things created an overall trend of new item descriptions in Sunbreak being any more ludicrous as a whole than what came before. The rest of the Tobi-Kadachi things are quite reasonable, even.

World's item descriptions are the deviation from the norm, and honestly what I'd agree should be taken over every other game's description, if anything, given:

Rathalos Fellwing (MHW): Very rare Rathalos material. Obtained by breaking its wings. Supple, used to craft gear.
Tigrex Hardfang (MHW): Very rare Tigrex material. Obtained by breaking its head. Sharp, used in many weapons.

More boring, sure, but what I can see as the canon explanation. It's literally just a description of its properties, nothing about instantly vaporizing people it touches or heralding the end of the world or what have you.

Personally I wouldn't use Generations/GU since that game is literally made so that they could copy paste things (and funny nuff its nigh all from the secondary team that worked on Generations/GU and Rise Sunbreak which honestly shows more of the differing mindset between the two teams) but I wouldn't call World a "shake up" from the norm in terms of the information but more so it's structure like for example.

Rathalos Scale (MHFU): "A Rathalos scale. Wyvern scales and shells such as this are fundamental forging materials."
Rathalos Scale (MH3U): "Wyvern scales like this one and the harder shells are basic forging items."
Rathalos Scale (MHW): "Rathalos material. Mostly obtained by carving. Broadly used for many purposes."

As ya can see here, these 3 descriptions give basically the same information but world's structure is different with it having "Where its obtained : How Its obtained : Use".

Okay but may I ask ya a question? What exactly do ya want to have happen? Like, do you really want us to just never use any item description even if it has nothing wrong with it? That sounds like an extreme solution for something that we could just evaluate together, like currently we obviously don't use all of the item descriptions since that as ya would know would cause a lot of circular scaling and inconsistencies but just ignoring them would be an intentional disregard for information that could actually work on the profile.

Sure, although I fully admitted NLF was not the main point of my argument. Fair enough about NLF existing in Pokedex entries, but are there any examples of non-NLF Pokedex statements being selectively unused in Pokemon profiles like they are in material descriptions?

That depends on who you ask though it isn't really the point. The point was ya said that the PokeDex differs from item descriptions by being fact which as ya know now isn't true and thus item descriptions should be treated like PokeDex entries and be evaluated on an individual basis on if they are valid as that is the most fair way to deduce what should be used. For example that Ibushi Hardclaw would be valid due to the fact that it fits in with already existing statements and evidence.

Sure, I get you. Your position is that:

If there's a monster material statement, and it:

• Is not an outlier
• Is not supernatural without evidence

Then it's fair game to use as evidence for profiles and ability. For example, if a monster shows the ability to kick up whirlwinds with its powers, and a material says it can, then it's fair game. But if a monster has an outlandish material statement with no backup evidence, then we don't use it. But isn't that the same as just... not needing to rely on materials for abilities and scaling?

Perhaps I accidentally stirred up an argument where there should be none; I am fine with materials as backup evidence. If anything, materials are good when clarifying existing feats or character/official statements. Sorry if I misled you.

But I don't think a statement solely coming from a material that is straight-up unsupported like a Glavenus being able to burn one's soul, like a Dalamadur being able to obliterate mountains with a twitch (unless that's stated somewhere official) or shake the entire planet and atmosphere being used as a crutch to lift up a monster that's otherwise never depicted as being able to do so.

I could see the mountain obliteration feat if, in its cutscene, Dalamadur casually collapsed an entire mountain in the distance before the fight or something like that. But the cutscene showcases no such power that couldn't be done by one of far less ability. It checks out that such absurd statements come with Dalamadur y'know, being known only as a fairytale pre-appearance (somehow) and hence supporting statements like that being overexaggerated in-universe. But if material descriptions are the only thing keeping a feat or ability afloat, I don't believe in that.

What ya just described is exactly what the "Likely" and "Possibly" ratings are for which iirc is actually what Glavenus' soul stuff is considered on it's profile so we're kinda already doing that and I'm fine with changing abilities to "Likely" and "Possibly". Though on a side note, that Dalamandur statement of being able to shake the planet is oddly consistent with everything as according to this calculation the tiering for such a feat would be Low 6-B.

 

[Sigilavox]

Personally I wouldn't use Generations/GU since that game is literally made so that they could copy paste things (and funny nuff its nigh all from the secondary team that worked on Generations/GU and Rise Sunbreak which honestly shows more of the differing mindset between the two teams) but I wouldn't call World a "shake up" from the norm in terms of the information but more so it's structure like for example.

Good thing that materials are typically not so exaggerated, I didn't consider the Generations argument.

What exactly do ya want to have happen?

I've said it in the last post. I would prefer it if materials were only used for abilities and scaling if other sources directly confirm them, and not as standalone evidence. I suppose my original post was more extreme than necessary and not reflective of what I, on full consideration, support. Also, for material descriptions in which things that are "said" or "rumored" to be even lower on the totem pole of evidence.

That depends on who you ask though it isn't really the point. The point was ya said that the PokeDex differs from item descriptions by being fact which as ya know now isn't true and thus item descriptions should be treated like PokeDex entries and be evaluated on an individual basis on if they are valid as that is the most fair way to deduce what should be used. For example that Ibushi Hardclaw would be valid due to the fact that it fits in with already existing statements and evidence.

Fair enough. Also, good. Baseline Low 6-B Ibushi fits nicely in between Kushala and Zorah levels.

What ya just described is exactly what the "Likely" and "Possibly" ratings are for which iirc is actually what Glavenus' soul stuff is considered on it's profile so we're kinda already doing that and I'm fine with changing abilities to "Likely" and "Possibly". Though on a side note, that Dalamandur statement of being able to shake the planet is oddly consistent with everything as according to this calculation the tiering for such a feat would be Low 6-B.

Actually, likely and possibly would work great. I can't believe I forgot about that. Also, yeah, the world-shaking feat might be pretty consistent with other Elders, but unless there is specific evidence that it does that, I would err on the cautious side without specific evidence that isn't marred by fairytale rumors and all. I wouldn't really care all that much if it does end up being used, though.

 

[Sigilavox]

As it is now, here are our possible Elder tiers including the current CRT going on:

7-A(?) Kirin, possibly Magalas (undecided as of now)
191.76 Gigatons = High 6-C Kushala Daora (and peers, such as Teostra, Chameleos, etc.)
1 Teraton = Low 6-B Wind Serpent Ibushi, Thunder Serpent Narwa
1.06 Teratons = Low 6-B Dalamadur
3.25 Teratons = Low 6-B Zorah Magdaros and Xeno'jiiva
22.5 Yottatons = 5-A White Fatalis

Black Dragons settle either in 5-A or the high end Low 6-B, possibly higher.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

As it is now, here are our possible Elder tiers including the current CRT going on:

7-A(?) Kirin, possibly Magalas (undecided as of now)
191.76 Gigatons = High 6-C Kushala Daora (and peers, such as Teostra, Chameleos, etc.)
1 Teraton = Low 6-B Wind Serpent Ibushi, Thunder Serpent Narwa
1.06 Teratons = Low 6-B Dalamadur
3.25 Teratons = Low 6-B Zorah Magdaros and Xeno'jiiva
22.5 Yottatons = 5-A White Fatalis

Black Dragons settle either in 5-A or the high end Low 6-B, possibly higher.

7-A Kirin and Gore is 100% fine. Gore is shown be able to stomp monsters such as Tigrex which shows that its clearly above that level of monsters. Though Shageru doesn't really have a reason to not be comparable to Kushala or other Elder Dragons which iirc DMUA actually agrees on due to it's major Elder Dragon status.

Everything else is fine though I can make an argument for the Black Dragons to just scale to 5-A since the eclipse that WF makes is present even with a standard Fatalis which makes it safe to assume that it would scale (Frontier would only certify it considering how it treats Fatalis there). The only Fatalis to not have it is Crimson but that is just a stronger base Fatalis so it would still scale. Safi would scale due being a rival to Fatalis and thus Alatreon would scale due to being compared to Safi with the only oddball being Dire Miralis which doesn't do much to anything other than kill an ecosystem by existing.

 

[Sigilavox]

7-A Kirin and Gore is 100% fine. Gore is shown be able to stomp monsters such as Tigrex which shows that its clearly above that level of monsters. Though Shageru doesn't really have a reason to not be comparable to Kushala or other Elder Dragons which iirc DMUA actually agrees on due to it's major Elder Dragon status.

Yeah, I think Shagaru is equal to Kushala and co. in Generations Ultimate, I believe it was just in Generations that it got downgraded to the star level below, alongside Valstrax iirc. It's also equal to them in its home game, 4 Ultimate.

 

[Sigilavox]

Everything else is fine though I can make an argument for the Black Dragons to just scale to 5-A since the eclipse that WF makes is present even with a standard Fatalis which makes it safe to assume that it would scale (Frontier would only certify it considering how it treats Fatalis there). The only Fatalis to not have it is Crimson but that is just a stronger base Fatalis so it would still scale. Safi would scale due being a rival to Fatalis and thus Alatreon would scale due to being compared to Safi with the only oddball being Dire Miralis which doesn't do much to anything other than kill an ecosystem by existing.

If we can get some Fatalis evidence of similar ecliptic power to White, then I could see it and therefore the other god tiers also scaling to 5-A.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I wonder how powerful the Zinogre, Rajang and Rathalos Kinship Attacks are? I know one of the Rathalos Subspecies pretty much unleashes a volley of Nuclear Explosion Sized Blasts which is pretty ******* nutty.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

I wonder how powerful the Zinogre, Rajang and Rathalos Kinship Attacks are? I know one of the Rathalos Subspecies pretty much unleashes a volley of Nuclear Explosion Sized Blasts which is pretty ******* nutty.

Kinda hard to calc them due to not being able to properly get how big the explosion is, if you can find a way to calc it then it would scale to the Rider and their Monstie due to the Rider needing to be strong enough to handle the power of the kinship in order to use it as shown with Ratha in Stories 2 and the fact that they can damage Apex monsters who can tank said kinships.

 

[DMUA]

Something I feel I should mention (even if I doubt I'd start working on it anytime soon whatsoever)

The Hunter should be multiple pages, one for each game

Right now it's a bit of a mad jumble of multiple people killing a completely different arrangement of monsters (not to mention different gear, from things as relatively small as the clutch claw or wirebugs to as major to entire sets of armor or abilities that result from putting it on)

Again, even if I decided to get started soon, I'd only probably make one for "The Fiver/hunter of the fifth fleet" and ... Whatever you'd call 4U's hunter, I know he has specific titles but I'm blanking on them

And while I'm at it (if I get at it), might as well make other character pages like for the huntsman or Aiden just for the heck of it

Granted if someone else decides to do all that I'd be fine, but if even a single one of you steals making the Admiral's page from me I would probably turn into a Crimson Fatalis on the spot