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Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

Yeah, I don't think elder dragons necessarily live substantially longer than humans (especially since monster hunter makes a pretty good habit of killing them non stop)

I'm not too sure about stun being a status ailment, in terms of abilities. I think it's just sort of a consequence of repeated blunt force trauma inevitably causing someone to lose their balance or awareness of their surroundings. Monsters can't inflict stun on eachother, so it's not really a supernatural ability to just make them stop being able to attack or what have you
 
DMUA said:
Yeah, I don't think elder dragons necessarily live substantially longer than humans (especially since monster hunter makes a pretty good habit of killing them non stop)

I'm not too sure about stun being a status ailment, in terms of abilities. I think it's just sort of a consequence of repeated blunt force trauma inevitably causing someone to lose their balance or awareness of their surroundings. Monsters can't inflict stun on eachother, so it's not really a supernatural ability to just make them stop being able to attack or what have you
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Couldn't we use the ED Gems quote as evidence for this? We are sure that all Elders in the game as far as I know can drop this item, each having their own gem. This gives evidence that yes, such gems do exist in ED and the fact that they do exist kind of confirms that they can have high longevity. The only thing we don't know is if there is the ability to generate more than one gem within an ED.
 
Honestly, for how (relatively) common they are I'm not sure the statement is literal, and even then it seems more phrased as in "every 1000 years one of these shows up" more than "after an elder dragon lives for 1000 years they produce this thing all the time"
 
DMUA said:
Honestly, for how (relatively) common they are I'm not sure the statement is literal, and even then it seems more phrased as in "every 1000 years one of these shows up" more than "after an elder dragon lives for 1000 years they produce this thing all the time"
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It may help to use other translations to confirm the sentence structure and that it is spelled correctly. Can you tell me where this quote is located?
 
Speaking of time what's up with all the 5th Gen MH games having important events happening 50 years ago?

*MHW: The first fleet discovering the New World.

*MHSt 2: Flashbacks of the MCs grandfather and early signs of Oltura.

*MHR: Kamura Village almost gets destroyed by the Rampage and Magnamalo.

*MHRS: The Kingdom succumbs to both a major plague and Malzeno's rampage.

Also I still wholly believe Elder's Dragons should have longevity, I find it ridiculously illogical within the setting that Humans and Wyverians (who already have long lifespans) would call a classification of animals "Elder" "Dragon" if they only lived as long as humans and we already know humans in MH are far from "normal" themselves.
 
Xeno'jiva was born before their eyes and they called that an elder dragon, so like

There are probably specific examples of Elder Dragons living very long but their primary trait is being comparable to living forces of nature
 
Elder Dragon is moreso a title than it is a measure of age or species. The point of it is to group up the monsters who they don't have explanations for their role in the ecosystem or have incredible abilities, Rajang at one point was an Elder Dragon but was then deemed a Fanged Beast once it's role of being Kirin's natural predator was discovered.
 
First Fleet was 40 years prior, but I believe the tracker's mentor, the Lone Star, came to the New World 50 years ago. I think 50 years is just barely long enough in the past to allow for stuff to have definitely happened "long ago" but is early enough to still have currently active characters who were alive back then.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
Elder Dragon is moreso a title than it is a measure of age or species. The point of it is to group up the monsters who they don't have explanations for their role in the ecosystem or have incredible abilities, Rajang at one point was an Elder Dragon but was then deemed a Fanged Beast once it's role of being Kirin's natural predator was discovered.
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Oh I'm well aware of that (Akantor and Ukanlos were also believed to be EDs before being reclassified as flying wyverns) but keep in mind EDs as a classification do still share distinct biological traits: ED blood, can't be captured by traps, high resistance to diseases, etc.
Sigilavox said:
First Fleet was 40 years prior, but I believe the tracker's mentor, the Lone Star, came to the New World 50 years ago. I think 50 years is just barely long enough in the past to allow for stuff to have definitely happened "long ago" but is early enough to still have currently active characters who were alive back then.
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Yeah you're right (I kinda forgot most of the Iceborne story outside Velkhana and Shara Ishvalda cutscenes tbh, I spent too much time in guiding lands). Also I would imagine 50 years is probably a gap year for Wyverians (I've always wanted to have the option to choose between Human or Wyverian when in the character creator).
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Oh I'm well aware of that (Akantor and Ukanlos were also believed to be EDs before being reclassified as flying wyverns) but keep in mind EDs as a classification do still share distinct biological traits: ED blood, can't be captured by traps, high resistance to diseases, etc.
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I would be fine with longevity if one of those distinct shared biological traits of Elder Dragons is stated to be longevity. I'm sure there's a quote in World or somewhere, but I'd prefer if we found it first.
 
Not to completely overshadow the Longevity thing (though there's not much to say besides "we probably want solid evidence"), but

While I was making the edits for the Kushala CRT (Mainly just, upping a bunch of things from 6-C to High 6-C) I noticed a lot of profiles that were kind of lackluster, only listing the most basic of basic stuff while saying "Comparable to elder dragons) or stuff like that, mainly the ones from Explore or Frontier G games

heck theres even Eo Garudia who just doesn't have a summary

I was wondering if anyone wanted to put in a little bit more legwork to try and figure out if the ratings are justified and thus give them a better one, or if I should feed them to the profile deletion thread

(If the answer is "yes" or maybe just, later when asked, I could probably make a full list of the profiles I'm thinking of when I'm saying this stuff)
 
DMUA said:
While I was making the edits for the Kushala CRT (Mainly just, upping a bunch of things from 6-C to High 6-C) I noticed a lot of profiles that were kind of lackluster, only listing the most basic of basic stuff while saying "Comparable to elder dragons) or stuff like that, mainly the ones from Explore or Frontier G games
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Oh yeah. Honestly, the biggest intimidation factor for me in trying to revamp the whole series of profiles is that, like... there's already a shit ton of raggedy profiles for everyone (Zinogre excluded lol) and the idea of changing all of them is just such a hassle. It would be much easier to go piece by piece, but I feel like if we change some shared quality of a profile (like standardizing stamina or Sound Manipulation roar text), it should be done to everyone else, too, and then I see the list of 200+ profiles and then go, "huh, maybe this can just wait another day..."

I mean, probably not enough to justify deleting a bunch (despite, like, Explore, Online, and to a lesser extent Frontier mons being really hard to research), but still. I'd be fine temporarily deleting the low-priority profiles so we can focus on developing important monster profiles one by one and set new shared precedent for wording and format, like that for the mainline apexes, flagships, common elder dragons, and such, before revisiting them with a strong and clear set of standards.
 
I can try to look into some monsters on my own time. Can someone post some links to low-priority monster profiles? I'll take a look and try to figure out some stuff about them that could be of use (just tell me the things I should prioritize looking for and I'll do that)

As Sigilavox said tho, having a focus on general, shared qualities is also gonna be big for a lot of this

Additionally, I'm pretty sure that there are some instances in Banned Lagiacrus' twitter threads where some EDs are specified as having long life spans, so combing through that as well would be good for the whole longevity conversation
 
Low Priority in my mind are:

Monster Hunter Online (this includes variants of existing monsters such as Recharged Soul Zinogre for simplicity's sake)
Monster Hunter Explore (ditto)
Monster Hunter Frontier (maybe... on the borderline about these guys since we do have contemporary Frontier documentation... but nothing we can just test in-game)

Anyone agree with these? I can pull up the list for each if we do decide to cull them for the time being. They compose at least a third of the existing profiles, probably closer to half. Something around forty or so in total.
 
So off the bat I've found this but IDK if it's actual lore stuff or if it's just the guy saying stuff. I don't follow this guy but based on the intro where he says he wants to preserve the monsters of a now canceled/done game (because Explore is over now apparently), he'd document them in video format. So if that's the case what he's saying could be true/legit about Explore monsters
 
GimmyJibbsJr said:
So off the bat I've found this but IDK if it's actual lore stuff or if it's just the guy saying stuff. I don't follow this guy but based on the intro where he says he wants to preserve the monsters of a now canceled/done game (because Explore is over now apparently), he'd document them in video format. So if that's the case what he's saying could be true/legit about Explore monsters
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I know him! Typically yeah he does put down the ecology given for those monsters (its kinda the point of the Pro and Noob series) but I wouldn't use it as evidence.
 
GimmyJibbsJr said:
So off the bat I've found this but IDK if it's actual lore stuff or if it's just the guy saying stuff. I don't follow this guy but based on the intro where he says he wants to preserve the monsters of a now canceled/done game (because Explore is over now apparently), he'd document them in video format. So if that's the case what he's saying could be true/legit about Explore monsters
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While Rage is very passionate about the ecologies and lore of the series and his team produces content that I very much enjoy, I do take his lore-related statements with a grain of salt due to his use of non-canon statements on occasion, like a then-wiki fan statement on Raging Brachydios fighting Crimson Fatalis without official backing.
 
Sigilavox said:
While Rage is very passionate about the ecologies and lore of the series and his team produces content that I very much enjoy, I do take his lore-related statements with a grain of salt due to his use of non-canon statements on occasion, like a then-wiki fan statement on Raging Brachydios fighting Crimson Fatalis without official backing.
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OOPH okay, yeah, I'll keep searching

Only actual lore he gave was that Eo was rediscovered in some ruins in the Great Desert, which is also the same place Jhen Morhan lives, but that's about it for the actual important stuff

EDIT: Also possible Earth manipulation for Eo since it turns regular sand into quick sand, and for Intelligence it COULD be marked as being actually smart as it sets up traps for Hunters using explosive spikes that it dislodges from its body in conjunction with creating wind tunnels (Hunters entering the wind tunnels get pulled closer to Eo, but they also have to dodge the explosive land-mine spikes that Eo sets in preparation for this attack)
 
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Oh, also I updated the verse page with our currently accepted calculations.

I intend to also update the "Power of the verse" section with less stuff like "this is a strong verse" and more like "the tiers of monsters are generally sorted into High 8-C, Tier 7 and Tier 6, and 5-A, with speeds ranging from Supersonic to Massively Hypersonic, and Massively FTL+ respectively", of course with a bit more fluff to them.

I'll also add the caveat that, while the series typical presents itself as grounded and natural with powers normally explainable by magic and supernatural stuff almost always justified with a biological explanation, item and material descriptions open the possibility to more esoteric powers, like soul manipulation, time, space, or fate manipulation, regeneration from a single scale, etc.
 
In the Witcher crossover, wasn't it pointed out that magic doesn't actually exist in Monster Hunter?

Also yeah, iirc Alatreon has a carve that mentions it being able to cleave open space-time
 
GimmyJibbsJr said:
In the Witcher crossover, wasn't it pointed out that magic doesn't actually exist in Monster Hunter?
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Indeed.

It seems that magic exists in fairy tales for their world (though some fairy tales like Velkhana or Gaismagorm turn out to be real and not magical) but is not an actual metaphysical concept as far as the Commission is aware. Does this extend to ideas like the soul, time and space, etc.?
 
Fair enough, I suppose. Also, for Morudomunto, its location appears to be the ice area from Gen 3 Monster Hunter games. It's arm-like wings (similar to Gore's in structure) are quite elastic given how they seemingly just grow in size in any which way when it tries to move using them. This video also showcases it, and more. It can also inflict Bleed if that is important.

It has an attack where it creates a large mass of black fluid from its body in the sky that reaches up above the massive ice structures that are seen in the Tundra, and at the end of that second video I linked you can see that it seems to span the entire area (Which could imply that it would cover a range spanning mountain-like structures of ice). Figuring out the size of those structures and the subsequent size of that black fluid mass in the sky would be super hard to figure out though.

And Mef Garmat also just has like nothing to its name other than a relation to Eo, so IDK what to do about that lmao
 
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Aaaaand from what I can find with minimal effort, Thunder Emperor Kirin is considered faster and stronger than base Kirin, and is able to use abilities similar to Frontier's Hardcore Kirin (such as teleporting via lightning in the middle of battle), and it ONLY appears in Tower 3, an area inhabited by numerous Elder Dragons and other such powerful monsters (altho sometimes Arzuros, Azure Rathalos and Pink Rathian can appear there as well so Tower 3 being involved probably doesn't do too much here, but oh well)

EDIT: Will be working on more of these for later, just need some time to do other things
 
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So, for most "Special Species", of which I am primarily just focusing on the Main Game ones and not the crossover event ones, I'll try to just compose a list and note all the noteworthy bits here. Although I should just throw out there that for the most part I don't know if it's at all clear if a Special Species is explicitly, canonically stronger than the main species, but in most cases it seems to be the case given that most of them have a wider range of abilities overall and that they have much bigger attacks.

Purgatory Agnaktor: Has access to Blast Blight, is encountered in the same area as regular Agnaktor (that being Volcano from 3rd Gen), at around 2:54 in this video PA can generate a massive explosion while remaining at the epicenter of it. Thankfully this video has someone who just runs away from the explosion so we can see the full scale of it. We could calc this explosion, maaaaybe have it scale for Special Species in general

Whitewater Plesioth: Has access to Bubbleblight like Mizutsune and can create/control large bubbles that bounce, but other than that doesn't appear to be much else based on hunt videos I found on Youtube

LandConquest Lagiacrus: Manipulates water and Earth to create geysers on land, it also does split the ground and displace a LOT of rock/dirt in its attacks, so it could be worth calcing

ShiningRock Uragaan: Uses ice and poison to create poison ice crystals that seem to blow up after a delay, and inflicts Noxious Poison. Can freeze the area around it for a good distance, as seen at around 30 seconds into the video. Might be interesting to calc, but I doubt it'll yield any meaningful results. As I put more info for these guys I am really thinking the only Special Species that is gonna be huge aside from Thunder Emperor Kirin is Purgatory Agnaktor lmao

Thunderbubble Mizutsune: Controls lightning and still uses bubbles, Which apparently can be formed inside of the Mizutsune's body and act as magnets to pull enemies/hunters closer to them which is kinda cool honestly. Otherwise nothing special

Explosive Peak Duramboros: This has potential but the literal ONLY video I can find on it is a guy playing Dual Blades so they're just right up on this thing and we don't get a look at the giant explosions this version creates. Still welcome to try and decipher this tho

Scorching Heat Rathian: Apparently has the same exact moveset as Pink Rathian so nothing much to report I guess

Thunder Emperor Kirin: Nothing much on the attack animations but hot DAMN IS THAT STORM SHMOVING! IDK if Tower 3 is like this for other monsters in Explore (assuming that any other monsters in the game can even be fought there) but we know for a fact that other monsters fought there in previous games were not accompanied by that kind of weather so we COULD attribute that to Kirin and try to figure out a kind of KE for the movement of those clouds of the generation of a super severe thunderstorm like that, assuming it'd even be any different from the one Kirin already scales to. Additionally, not clear if this is applicable to other Special Species as Kirin is the only ED to have a Special Species and could just be way stronger than the others.

Fiercewater Nargacuga: Can cause bleed and manipulates water, and it can create a large burst of water with its tail or wings that eject said water, but IDK if this would be worth much. Still, here is a video. Basically has all the abilities of basic Narga but can augment itself with water.

Iceblast Brachydios: This has potential. Opens its fight by freezing the ground and creating four large ice sculptures that are just a tad taller than itself, it seems. They can even be destroyed to create tall, this explosions. Also at around 2:54 Iceblast Brachy begins to start a large scale explosion, although this seems to happen more as multiple blasts rather than one. Still, could be noteworthy I guess.

Virulent Gigginox: Has massively buffed AoE attacks that use water and poison but nothing else really. The fight

Black Star Beast Volvidon: I can't find any videos atm, there might be some out there but I'm just not immediately finding it so that'll have to wait

Immortal Zinogre: Honestly it looks almost exactly like a regular Zinogre in the fights so IDK if there is anything worth our while in this one either

Flame Rathalos: Acts kinda similarly Silver Rathalos (according tot he wiki), really is just a mess of fire and explosions. Fight video

Frozen Barioth: Uses poison, and this one is interesting because there is a moment in the ONE fight video of this thing I can find that has me confused. At a certain point in the video I cannot tell if it creates a super tall ice structure or if it's just a snowy tornado that Barioth usually make. Either way, could be interesting if it's the former??? Here it is, I even linked to the time stamp, it's 2:12 if the link doesn't work right.

tl;dr: Most important monsters here are Duram (but the one vid we have of it doesn't show a lot), Thunder Emperor Kirin, Iceblast Brachydios and by far Purgatory Agnaktor. Again, I assume most of the Special Species scale to each other with the exception of the lone Elder Dragon Special Species, which is Thunder Emperor Kirin. This is the best I can do in my sleep deprived state so my apologies if I made mistakes, feel free to correct me. Sorry for the wall of text and good luck handling it lmao
 
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GimmyJibbsJr said:
Purgatory Agnaktor: Has access to Blast Blight, is encountered in the same area as regular Agnaktor (that being Volcano from 3rd Gen), at around 2:54 in this video PA can generate a massive explosion while remaining at the epicenter of it. Thankfully this video has someone who just runs away from the explosion so we can see the full scale of it. We could calc this explosion, maaaaybe have it scale for Special Species in general
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For as impressive as it looks up close this is ultimately only like, 8-C at most (sorta like Fatalis' gigantic flame being Low 7-C supposedly)
 
DMUA said:
sorta like Fatalis' gigantic flame being Low 7-C supposedly
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The Fatalis "Burning Fire" nuke calculation is here, I posted it to Spacebattles forums a few months back but not here since like... it's not relevant to the scaling used here.

I used the distance-explosion equation based on the iron gate actively turning to liquid and gas before your eyes at like ~80 meters from Fatalis's mouth, measured in game. The energy is somewhere between 6.2 and 104 kilotons of TNT, depending on what angle you think the fire wave is, sitting squarely in the lower and upper bounds of Town level. It's almost certainly on the lower end, since it's not literally making half a hemisphere of flame.

I'd wager it's around ~13.5 kilotons overall, taking average and reasonable values. But if we take second-by-second for AP, it's in Low 7-C at ~1.93 kt/s.

As an aside, Safi's Sapphire of the Emperor shakes out to about ~3 kilotons of TNT based on rock destruction in the final zone.
 
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Capcom really just went "hmm, I do not enjoy this High 8-C rating" and released this the moment the revisions went through

May as well wait until they actually release silver Rathalos though

In the meantime, on the topic of earlier profiles to delete... Honestly, thinking about it, Lao Shao Lung and the Morans would probably count as well

They straight up don't really have any feats, like, we were just going to put them at unknown on the last CRT

I know there's a statement about the former taking out even a mountain if it's in its way but there's no real timeframe on what that means and it's not like he instantly disintegrates the castle you besiege him on the moment it stands before him

The best ideas I'd have for giving them something solid is scaling to the hunters (whenever we make individual profiles for them, and... Yeah...) Or figuring out how to handle Dragonators in terms of ratings, both of which are probably just done much later down the line
 
I am reading through that thread now, it looks like a mess ngl

Also I know nothing about Oltura lmao I should really play both the Stories games one day
 
I'd say yes, since it contends with late-game Hunter, who just beat Ruiner Nergigante before their own fight, and we already scale Ruiner Nergigante to Xeno'Jiiva
 
It's more like Ruiner is scaled to the hunter (and they are supposed to be a major story fight anyways so the idea they're much weaker is a bit weird) but again that's flimsy given the state of the hunter profile as of now
 
By the way, Ruiner has a funny translated info blurb from the recent Iceborne Ecology book. The raws exist online somewhere.
The more its spikes are broken, the more powerful they grow back. As such, the more powerful Ruiner Nergigante's foe, the more powerful Ruiner Nergigante becomes. As such Ruiner Nergigante is a veteran individual that sits at the top of the ecosystem.
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Assuming this is translated correctly, would this be a case for Nerg having Reactive Evolution?
 
I've heard that Ruiner Nergigante would be an ED created by nature to balance the Ecosystem when unbalanced, so it would make sense, considering that he would need to fight with potential dangers to the entire ecosystem of a place.
 
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