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didnt power null work on sayori, who is 2c?
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Miyuki Sone vs Monika (The fight for (You)r love.)
- Thread starter Monikaforever
- Start date
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Because Monika is CANONICALLY used to deletr chr files, while Miyuki doesnt havr one (in a neutral fight between KtK Miyuki vs Doki Doki Monika, if you say Miyuki should have a chr file as well, you would be equalizing Miyuki to Doki doki's rules.)
And Miyuki directly hacks people from the game's files, not a gameplay mechanic.
This was explained above at least 3 times.
And Miyuki directly hacks people from the game's files, not a gameplay mechanic.
This was explained above at least 3 times.
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that is the definition of game mechanic, only because both are 4th wall breaking games we wont give new rules to them.Kyle Ramos said:
exictence erasure works on characters whitout chr files, thats the wikis rules. the only thing canonical is that she erases peapole
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sans canonicly stops you by not using his turn and ut verse goes by turned attacks. didnt see anyone saying that sans can only attack once per turn, despite it being canonical
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Isnt giving Miyuki a .chr file the same as giving life points to whoever fights a Yugioh character?
Whats considered a neutral ground in this fight?
Miyuki with Doki Doki Mechanics or one where Miyuki functions like she does in her game?
Whats considered a neutral ground in this fight?
Miyuki with Doki Doki Mechanics or one where Miyuki functions like she does in her game?
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Sorry if i didnt make myself clear.
Giving Miyuki an disadvantage because of a Doki doki Game Mechanic is not only biased but also violates the neutral ground of this fight.
Its Miyuki as she works in Ktk vs Monika as she works in Doki Doki
Because if you just say that she should have a chr file its pretty much wanking and being biased.
And i also adressed this above
You do know how to read, yes?
Giving Miyuki an disadvantage because of a Doki doki Game Mechanic is not only biased but also violates the neutral ground of this fight.
Its Miyuki as she works in Ktk vs Monika as she works in Doki Doki
Because if you just say that she should have a chr file its pretty much wanking and being biased.
And i also adressed this above
You do know how to read, yes?
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Dont be rude
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Fine.
I apologize.
I apologize.
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She deleted chr files, but she also deletes other files.Kyle Ramos said:
P1: Monika can delete files (shown in the credits where she deletes a variety of files)
P2: Miyuki is comprised of files.
C: Therefore, Monika can delete Miyuki.
If Miyuki isn't contained in files, then Monika can't do anything in this fight.
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P1- Monika's main method to erase people is deleting their .chr files P2- Miyuki does not have a .chr file on KtK. C:Therefore, Monika is destined to commit the mistake of trying to delete Miyuki by looking into the Characters folder.
Aditional Point-Monika herself states she has very limited knowledge of programming, so figuring out where Miyuki herself is gonna be an incredible task for her.
As explained above.
P1-Miyuki can recode the entirety of her game and delete characters who have the same power as her (at the very darn least a HUD, which already surpassed anything dome by Moni) P2-Monika is comprised of files, aside of the chr files P3-Miyuki can also delete Monika, and even worse, even better than Monika.
-Part below is speculation based on hacking principles.-
If you want to go meta, Miyuki can bypass Bad End Monika by just recoding Doki Doki and just negating any trigger to any of her actions or reducing her values to 0.
But maybe thats getting things a bit too far, because she hasnt dont that much in game, but canonically should have the knowledge to.
Aditional Point-Monika herself states she has very limited knowledge of programming, so figuring out where Miyuki herself is gonna be an incredible task for her.
As explained above.
P1-Miyuki can recode the entirety of her game and delete characters who have the same power as her (at the very darn least a HUD, which already surpassed anything dome by Moni) P2-Monika is comprised of files, aside of the chr files P3-Miyuki can also delete Monika, and even worse, even better than Monika.
-Part below is speculation based on hacking principles.-
If you want to go meta, Miyuki can bypass Bad End Monika by just recoding Doki Doki and just negating any trigger to any of her actions or reducing her values to 0.
But maybe thats getting things a bit too far, because she hasnt dont that much in game, but canonically should have the knowledge to.
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Response to P1: as you admit, that's her "main method" of erasing people. Miyuki's "main method" of erasing people is hacking KtK, which can't be done to DDLC's engine, so if you're only allowing "main methods" then Miyuki can't do anything either.
Could Monika not just delete KtK as a game if you're assuming that they stay within their original games?
For the speculation part, Monika isn't bounded by the script, and so she could go bad end whenever it's suitable for her.
Could Monika not just delete KtK as a game if you're assuming that they stay within their original games?
For the speculation part, Monika isn't bounded by the script, and so she could go bad end whenever it's suitable for her.
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Response to P1 I think i didnt make myself clear.
Monika's main method is to search and delete Chr. Files. Miyuki's main method is to delete them from the files.
I am not saying that after Monika fails to find a Miyuki chr file, she would just give up and not attempt to delete her from other files.
My argument is that Miyuki's knowledge of hacking and her main method of deleting her opponents is more direct and way more asertive, while Miyuki does know how to hack games by messing with the game's actual files, Monika has little to none hacking knowledge and her "hacking" is made by simple codes of deletion.
This and what i said above is far enough to prove Miyuki has a severe advantage in this
Monika's main method is to search and delete Chr. Files. Miyuki's main method is to delete them from the files.
I am not saying that after Monika fails to find a Miyuki chr file, she would just give up and not attempt to delete her from other files.
My argument is that Miyuki's knowledge of hacking and her main method of deleting her opponents is more direct and way more asertive, while Miyuki does know how to hack games by messing with the game's actual files, Monika has little to none hacking knowledge and her "hacking" is made by simple codes of deletion.
This and what i said above is far enough to prove Miyuki has a severe advantage in this
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File deletion is much simpler than learning another coding language.
It really depends on how much each character knows and what the situation is, which is why I'm not a huge fan of their powers not being equalized to work on each other as they work in-verse. If Monika can see KtK's files and knows that they're Miyuki's origin, then she could just delete them.
Then we get to the weird situation of it being based on speed, where Monika's ability to stop and rewind time should be an advantage, assuming it even functions in this weird un-equalized setting.
Then you'd need to also consider how much effort it takes for Monika to perform her modifications compared to Miyuki. As far as I understand it Miyuki usually does it through her phone, but I believe that changes some time in the game so maybe they could both do it without access to a device?
EDIT: Has there been any clarification from OP on whether this fight is considered to be taking place on someone's computer with both of their games running on it and being able to interface with each other through that medium, or in a standard universe with both of them having their powers and abilities function as they do ingame? Because I don't see a way for multiple of their abilities to work while being on some computer linked to each other (Miyuki's form on non-corporeality and weather manipulation wouldn't be able to function, and Monika's form of time manipulation doesn't make much sense either)..
It really depends on how much each character knows and what the situation is, which is why I'm not a huge fan of their powers not being equalized to work on each other as they work in-verse. If Monika can see KtK's files and knows that they're Miyuki's origin, then she could just delete them.
Then we get to the weird situation of it being based on speed, where Monika's ability to stop and rewind time should be an advantage, assuming it even functions in this weird un-equalized setting.
Then you'd need to also consider how much effort it takes for Monika to perform her modifications compared to Miyuki. As far as I understand it Miyuki usually does it through her phone, but I believe that changes some time in the game so maybe they could both do it without access to a device?
EDIT: Has there been any clarification from OP on whether this fight is considered to be taking place on someone's computer with both of their games running on it and being able to interface with each other through that medium, or in a standard universe with both of them having their powers and abilities function as they do ingame? Because I don't see a way for multiple of their abilities to work while being on some computer linked to each other (Miyuki's form on non-corporeality and weather manipulation wouldn't be able to function, and Monika's form of time manipulation doesn't make much sense either)..
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they have to be on a neutral ground if not specifiedAgnaa said:
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The problem is, does neutral ground mean a neutral universe where their abilities act exactly as they do in-universe, or do they act as they would if they were both in a neutral computer?
There seems to be some disagreement over whether treating Miyuki if she would have a chr file, and whether Monika and Miyuki would be able to use their abilities even though the others should have code that they don't currently understand, is "verse equalization" or putting things on "neutral ground".
There seems to be some disagreement over whether treating Miyuki if she would have a chr file, and whether Monika and Miyuki would be able to use their abilities even though the others should have code that they don't currently understand, is "verse equalization" or putting things on "neutral ground".
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a neutral ground is where both are at theire best whit to no holds back (whit the exeption of special circumstances). so in a neutral universe where all powers can be used in theyre current form (they have no other forms, but that was for other fighters like asriel and cell)Agnaa said:
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Well then in that case then all the Miyuki not having a .chr file and skill stuff is irrelevant.
Monika wins due to showing resistance to existence erasure at Miyuki's level, having better time manipulation, having mind manipulation, and being able to kill erase Miyuki.
Monika wins due to showing resistance to existence erasure at Miyuki's level, having better time manipulation, having mind manipulation, and being able to kill erase Miyuki.
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>Miyuki not being affected by Monika's main deletion method is irrelevant
>Monika not knowing how to code games is not relevant
That's it.
You've lost me.
You are pretty much talking to yourself now.
>Monika not knowing how to code games is not relevant
That's it.
You've lost me.
You are pretty much talking to yourself now.
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fight takes place in a universe where both van use theyre powers unless stated othervies by opKyle Ramos said:
and verse is equalized so theyre powers would work on each other as it would normaly
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What the hell are you talking about.
OP only states that the speed is equalized and that Miyu has all of her equipment.
You have gone mad.
OP only states that the speed is equalized and that Miyu has all of her equipment.
You have gone mad.
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and standard battle asumptions stat verse equalizationKyle Ramos said:
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I dont see where in the OP says "stats equalized".
To assume is to make an ass out of u and me. Hell, even if, even if Miyuki has a chr file, Monika cant delete someome with her own powers, as proven above in my gosh darn conclusion post and countless times above.
And even if, EVEN IF, God made a backup of Miyuki. Making this impossible for Monika to win. If you wanna equalize the verse so much, then why not also equalize Monika to the Ktk rules and get utterly stomped?
What are you scared of? The truth?
To assume is to make an ass out of u and me. Hell, even if, even if Miyuki has a chr file, Monika cant delete someome with her own powers, as proven above in my gosh darn conclusion post and countless times above.
And even if, EVEN IF, God made a backup of Miyuki. Making this impossible for Monika to win. If you wanna equalize the verse so much, then why not also equalize Monika to the Ktk rules and get utterly stomped?
What are you scared of? The truth?
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It's a standard battle assumption, as per the standard battle assumptions page.
Monika can delete someone with her own powers, as I mentioned in my response to your gosh darn conclusion post.
"I'm not sure if it's true that Sayori's file stays around during the bad ending, that video doesn't show that and I'd have to go back to check, but I think it doesn't matter. Sayori experiences the same glitchy animation thing that happens when a character is erased while they're on screen, and then never appears again for the rest of the game. Even if her file stays, that shows that Monika doesn't need to type out a command to delete someone to erase them, but that she can just will it."
God making a backup would be outside help, no?
How would Monika need to be equalized to the KtK rules? Even if she is, I don't see anything in Miyuki's abilities that could help her against Monika's defensive and haxx advantages.
Monika can delete someone with her own powers, as I mentioned in my response to your gosh darn conclusion post.
"I'm not sure if it's true that Sayori's file stays around during the bad ending, that video doesn't show that and I'd have to go back to check, but I think it doesn't matter. Sayori experiences the same glitchy animation thing that happens when a character is erased while they're on screen, and then never appears again for the rest of the game. Even if her file stays, that shows that Monika doesn't need to type out a command to delete someone to erase them, but that she can just will it."
God making a backup would be outside help, no?
How would Monika need to be equalized to the KtK rules? Even if she is, I don't see anything in Miyuki's abilities that could help her against Monika's defensive and haxx advantages.
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Why are you responding to things i asked ricsi, literally less than 20 minutes from each other?
Are you a sockpuppet?
Anyways, adressed above. And you already lost your mind, so there is nothing to discuss with you anymore tbh.
And if you are willing to use game mechanics and no limit fallacies, then it is fair i should be able to use them as well.
Not so fun now, huh? Just admit you are biased and using literal rederic, ignoring the skill and range gap to somehow put Monika in a higher stop that she is.
You lost, man.
Are you a sockpuppet?
Anyways, adressed above. And you already lost your mind, so there is nothing to discuss with you anymore tbh.
And if you are willing to use game mechanics and no limit fallacies, then it is fair i should be able to use them as well.
Not so fun now, huh? Just admit you are biased and using literal rederic, ignoring the skill and range gap to somehow put Monika in a higher stop that she is.
You lost, man.
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Sorry to butt in again.
But i do agree that using game mechanics and giving Miyuki weaknesses based on Doki Doki is flat out wanking monika.
But aside from that, both sides should stop using nlf powers.
But i do agree that using game mechanics and giving Miyuki weaknesses based on Doki Doki is flat out wanking monika.
But aside from that, both sides should stop using nlf powers.
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not game mecahnics... its a game mechanic that monika need chr. files for erasure to work, and its not using game mechanics, its called verse equalizationMarco Shark said:
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"Why are you responding to things I asked ricsi?"
Because I can address them.
"Anyways, addressed above."
I didn't see your response to my response to your conclusion post. Could you please copy/paste your addressing so I can see it?
"And if you are willing to use game mechanics and no limit fallacies, then it is fair i should be able to use them as well."
What do you mean by that? What NLFs am I using? I'm just basing my argument on the feats each character has shown within their game.
"Just admit you are biased and using literal rederic, ignoring the skill and range gap to somehow put Monika in a higher stop that she is."
Like I've mentioned multiple times, the skill gap is irrelevant due to the massive power gap. A skilled martial artist has more skill than a star just sitting around in space, but the star would win in a fight every single time.
Also, there's a range gap? I thought they were both multi-universal?
"But i do agree that using game mechanics and giving Miyuki weaknesses based on Doki Doki is flat out wanking monika."
I'm not sure what you mean by "using game mechanics" in this context, or what you mean by "giving Miyuki weaknesses based on Doki Doki", could you give me examples of what you mean?
Also, what "nlf powers" have I been using? I've only used things demonstrated in game at the lowest power they'd have to be to operate as they're shown.
Because I can address them.
"Anyways, addressed above."
I didn't see your response to my response to your conclusion post. Could you please copy/paste your addressing so I can see it?
"And if you are willing to use game mechanics and no limit fallacies, then it is fair i should be able to use them as well."
What do you mean by that? What NLFs am I using? I'm just basing my argument on the feats each character has shown within their game.
"Just admit you are biased and using literal rederic, ignoring the skill and range gap to somehow put Monika in a higher stop that she is."
Like I've mentioned multiple times, the skill gap is irrelevant due to the massive power gap. A skilled martial artist has more skill than a star just sitting around in space, but the star would win in a fight every single time.
Also, there's a range gap? I thought they were both multi-universal?
"But i do agree that using game mechanics and giving Miyuki weaknesses based on Doki Doki is flat out wanking monika."
I'm not sure what you mean by "using game mechanics" in this context, or what you mean by "giving Miyuki weaknesses based on Doki Doki", could you give me examples of what you mean?
Also, what "nlf powers" have I been using? I've only used things demonstrated in game at the lowest power they'd have to be to operate as they're shown.
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You two posting at literally seconds from each other is really raising some doubt.
Anyways, i agree Shark.
Literally giving Miyuki Doki Doki weaknesses while not giving Monika anything from Ktk is total bs.
You two (or one, i should say) are repeating stuff adressed above.
So chsnge it or you are not worthy of my attention nor discussion.
Anyways, i agree Shark.
Literally giving Miyuki Doki Doki weaknesses while not giving Monika anything from Ktk is total bs.
You two (or one, i should say) are repeating stuff adressed above.
So chsnge it or you are not worthy of my attention nor discussion.
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verse equalization wasent adressed by you and the miyu has no chr file is broken by verse equalization
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miyuki has a character file due to verse equalization. Period. Now stop bogging down the thread with ignorant statements.
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What do you mean "while not giving Monika anything from KtK"? I specifically said above that Monika should be affected by all of Miyuki's powers as they function in KtK. That's the whole point of verse equalization.Kyle Ramos said:
If it was addressed above, I can't find it. Could you please direct me to it? I know it sucks having to repeat points, I've done it in this thread, but it's worth it so that we can come to a conclusion, instead of asking me to re-read all 190 posts again.
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I've said enough.
This thread shows how many times i have repated myself.
This thread shows how many times i have repated myself.
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Well that sucks. It annoyed me that you argued with Risci so much since those were really long, didn't really go anywhere, and Risci was missing multiple important feats from DDLC when making those arguments.
Anyway, to repeat myself again, Monika wins by having enough AP to take out Miyuki, as demonstrated by her erasing Sayori who was at a 2-C level at the time, as well as having Mind Manipulation, which Miyuki can't resist without outside help, and by having Time Manipulation to a greater extent than Miyuki, being able to rewind the flow of events as opposed to just being able to change time of day.
Miyuki fails to win as her existence erasure isn't shown to work on someone with the level of resistance to it that Monika has; with Monika surviving being erased on a level that erases baseline 2-C beings.
Anyway, to repeat myself again, Monika wins by having enough AP to take out Miyuki, as demonstrated by her erasing Sayori who was at a 2-C level at the time, as well as having Mind Manipulation, which Miyuki can't resist without outside help, and by having Time Manipulation to a greater extent than Miyuki, being able to rewind the flow of events as opposed to just being able to change time of day.
Miyuki fails to win as her existence erasure isn't shown to work on someone with the level of resistance to it that Monika has; with Monika surviving being erased on a level that erases baseline 2-C beings.
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I still agree with Kyle, he already adressed this.
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Marco Shark said:
He must have addressed it in a part of the thread that I missed, do you remember roughly what he said so we could find that post again and I could reply to it?
If you think he addressed it from the "Miyuki doesn't have a chr file" chain of reasoning, then we go back to the problem of whether verse equalization should give Miyuki a chr file or not. I think it should from how standard battle assumptions work.
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Ooooh Boy.
Miyuki 6
Monika 4
Inconclusive 3
ONE MORE VOTE for Grace Period!
Miyuki 6
Monika 4
Inconclusive 3
ONE MORE VOTE for Grace Period!
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