(Minor To Aru CRT) Touma Kamijou Additions

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hey, hey, fanta here! ... Basically, I had planned for my first ToAru CRT to be based around a number of my own ToAru AP & Dura Calcs and proposing a scaling chain for the non-physical top tiers, however, I came across a few more feats that I need to calc 'ed and evaluated by CGM and whatnot. So... To pass the time, I decided that it was best for me to do a small CRT to add some much needed abilities for Touma Kamijou and fixes for his profile!

... Yes, let's get to it. I am using Touma Kamijou's Respect Reddit Page for this, btw.

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Additions

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Change Touma's Instinctive Reaction to Instinctive Action - Reason: The ability had a rename, and... that's it. I guess somebody forgot to fix it, although, that is probably true for a long list of profiles, so meh... Also, considering below, maybe Touma needs Enhanced Senses as well, idk.

Give Touma Kamijou Precognition - Reasons: [1] [2] [3] - Detailed Reason: Basically, after participating in so many life or death battles, Touma has developed a type of precognition. By using his past experiences and subconsciously taking in the movements of the battlefield around him, his body will move where it needs to to avoid taking fatal injuries in a fight. While Instinctive Action would probably be enough, in number 3, Touma, using his Precognition, was able to negate a specific dagger so the rest surrounding it get destroyed, creating a safe space for him to not get injured, even while he was surrounded by thousands, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of daggers that were packed in so tightly that they did not leave enough space for a human to hide - or at least according to the text.

... I am also aware that the description on the Precognition page has changed by a bit, and Touma Kamijou qualifies for it... especially since he is listed as the 8th example on said page.

Give Touma Kamijou Supernatural Luck - Reason: [1] - Detailed Reason - Touma Kamijou is in possession of a special ability located in his right hand called Imagine Breaker, which can negate the supernatural. And, well... As explained by a character, Touma's Right Hand is continually negating the power of fortune, so... just by touching the air, his right hand is passively giving him misfortune. It is also a running gag that Touma is extremely misfortunate to the point that he has the catchphrase, "Such Misfortune".

Give Touma Kamijou Social Influencing - Reasons: [1] [2] [3] - Detailed Reason - Touma Kamijou is essentially a shonen protagonist, capable of making speeches that turn enemies into allies... usually after punching them in the face, but the point still stands. He was capable of breaking through to a person who had magically altered perception to make them stop fighting. After enduring Infintie Hells, and dying 10,031 deaths, he was capable of understanding and influencing a High 1-C God Tier character to make them feel extreme sadness and loss after they killed him for the last time and returned the world how it was. He is also a harem protagonist cuz japan. He is also a competent manipulator, able to manipulate people into doing things that benefit him. Also, an evil version of him called Kamijou Touma (Enumeration) or KnT, who is exactly the same as him expect he has no morals (since Touma, somehow, made him), was able to force and threaten everyone into working for him and was able to gaslight and manipulate a mind-controller named Misaki into work for him due to her feelings for the real Touma. Everything KnT did was something Touma could do as they were the same person as the only thing holding him back was his morals.

Give Touma Kamijou Limited/Unconventional Attack Reflection & Non-Physical Interaction - Reasons: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] - Detailed Reason - Touma's Imagine Breaker is not only capable of negating the supernatural. It is also capable of touching, pushing, grabbing, and holding supernatural phenomena to deflect them towards other directions or, in certain cases, redirecting them to their sender. That is it. This is only limited to his Right Hand, so... need to slap a limited/unconventional onto it.

Give Touma Kamijou Limited Resistance to Power Replication/Mimicry - Reasons: [1] - Detailed Reason - For some reason, if somebody tries to copy Imagine Breaker, while Touma still has it, it immediately makes their right arm blow up. No idea why, and even the person that tried to copy Imagine Breaker doesn't know either. It just happened.

(New) Give Touma Kamijou Limited Fear Manipulation - Reason: The entire reason that the conscious form of the aggregation of the AIM Diffusion Fields of all espers known as Kazakiri Hyouka exists as a conscious person is due to the fact she gained sentience the moment Touma entered Academy City, as Imagine Breaker lead to her obtaining a fear of death, and served as the basis of her birth as if something does not fear death, it cannot comprehend the concept of "being alive".

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TLDR

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Give Touma the following:
Instinctive Action
Possibly Enhanced Senses
Precognition
Supernatural Luck
Limited Fear Manipulation (New)
Limited/Unconventional Attack Reflection and Non-Physical Interaction
Limited Resistance to Power Mimicry

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Agree: @ElixirBlue, @XDragnoir, @Aseka

Disagree:

Neutral: @Rez, @MrOMG

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Side Note: I'll soon be making a user blog that will showcase all of the abilities that Touma should have in tabbers and with sources attached. Will also feature a revamped intelligence section for Touma. Will edit this thread with the link for the user blog once it is done.

(New) Here is what Touma Kamijou P&A Section should look like. Am trying to figure out how to word Touma's intelligence, both academically and in combat, atm. Afterwards, I'll figure out how to add references. Maybe, idk.

FantaRin The First/Touma P&A Revision

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

BUMP

 

[ElixirBlue]

Change Touma's Instinctive Reaction to Instinctive Action - Reason: The ability had a rename, and... that's it. I guess somebody forgot to fix it, although, that is probably true for a long list of profiles, so meh...

Agree

Give Touma Kamijou Precognition - Reasons: [1] [2] [3] - Detailed Reason: Basically, after participating in so many life or death battles, Touma has developed a type of precognition. By using his past experiences and subconsciously taking in the movements of the battlefield around him, his body will move where it needs to to avoid taking fatal injuries in a fight. While Instinctive Action would probably be enough, in number 3, Touma, using his Precognition, was able to negate a specific dagger so the rest surrounding it get destroyed, creating a safe space for him to not get injured, even while he was surrounded by thousands, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of daggers that were packed in so tightly that they did not leave enough space for a human to hide - or at least according to the text.

I agree. His profile already mentions Precog without listing it and I've seen it being used in some matches.

Give Touma Kamijou Supernatural Luck - Reason: [1] - Detailed Reason - Touma Kamijou is in possession of a special ability located in his right hand called Imagine Breaker, which can negate the supernatural. And, well... As explained by a character, Touma's Right Hand is continually negating the power of fortune, so... just by touching the air, his right hand is passively giving him misfortune. It is also a running gag that Touma is extremely misfortunate to the point that he has the catchphrase, "Such Misfortune".

As in, give Touma's hand the ability to negate Luck? I agree.

Give Touma Kamijou Social Influencing - Reasons: [1] [2] [3] - Detailed Reason - Touma Kamijou is essentially a shonen protagonist, capable of making speeches that turn enemies into allies... usually after punching them in the face, but the point still stands. He was capable of breaking through to a person who had magically altered perception to make them stop fighting. After enduring Infintie Hells, and dying 10,031 deaths, he was capable of understanding and influencing a High 1-C God Tier character to make them feel extreme sadness and loss after they killed him for the last time and returned the world how it was. He is also a harem protagonist cuz japan. He is also a competent manipulator, able to manipulate people into doing things that benefit him. Also, an evil version of him called Kamijou Touma (Enumeration) or KnT, who is exactly the same as him expect he has no morals (since Touma, somehow, made him), was able to force and threaten everyone into working for him and was able to gaslight and manipulate a mind-controller named Misaki into work for him due to her feelings for the real Touma. Everything KnT did was something Touma could do as they were the same person as the only thing holding him back was his morals.

A-Agree.

Give Touma Kamijou Limited/Unconventional Attack Reflection & Non-Physical Interaction - Reasons: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] - Detailed Reason - Touma's Imagine Breaker is not only capable of negating the supernatural. It is also capable of touching, pushing, grabbing, and holding supernatural phenomena to deflect them towards other directions or, in certain cases, redirecting them to their sender. That is it. This is only limited to his Right Hand, so... need to slap a limited/unconventional onto it.

Pretty legit.

Give Touma Kamijou Limited Resistance to Power Replication/Mimicry - Reasons: [1] - Detailed Reason - For some reason, if somebody tries to copy Imagine Breaker, while Touma still has it, it immediately makes their right arm blow up. No idea why, and even the person that tried to copy Imagine Breaker doesn't know either. It just happened.

Hm, I agree.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Thank you.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

On a side note, I am also going to add Fear Manipulation, otherwise known as Fear Induction, to the list of abilities Touma has. Due to the existence of Kazakiri Hyouka, and how she came into existence as she obtained sentience the moment Touma entered Academy City, as his Imagine Breaker led to her obtaining a fear of death, and causing her to be instinctively fearful of Touma due to Imagine Breaker. It bears saying that this is not due to Social Influencing but due to a Supernatural Mean, aka, Imagine Breaker, so this fits.

 

[ElixirBlue]

(New) Give Touma Kamijou Fear Manipulation - Reason: The entire reason that the conscious form of the aggregation of the AIM Diffusion Fields of all espers known as Kazakiri Hyouka exists as a conscious person is due to the fact she gained sentience the moment Touma entered Academy City, as Imagine Breaker lead to her obtaining a fear of death, and served as the basis of her birth as if something does not fear death, it cannot comprehend the concept of "being alive".

Yes! I remember that.

I agree.

 

[Rez]

As in, give Touma's hand the ability to negate Luck? I agree.

Does powernull not deal with it already?

 

[Rez]

(New) Give Touma Kamijou Fear Manipulation - Reason: The entire reason that the conscious form of the aggregation of the AIM Diffusion Fields of all espers known as Kazakiri Hyouka exists as a conscious person is due to the fact she gained sentience the moment Touma entered Academy City, as Imagine Breaker lead to her obtaining a fear of death, and served as the basis of her birth as if something does not fear death, it cannot comprehend the concept of "being alive".

Wouldn't this be limited fear manipulation since it works against supernatural beings.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Does powernull not deal with it already?

Hm. Well, as Index said, Touma's IB essentially negates the powers of fortune. Good fortune, in fact. Essentially, leaving Touma in a state that he'll never receive good fortune and will always have misfortune as a byproduct. That, and misfortune is heavily tied to Touma - it being a source of comedy, it sometimes being the cause of getting involved into incidents, and then we have the whole thing with Pre-Amensia Touma being called a god of pestilence as a kid and all that jazz. We also have to consider that luck isn't something that one thinks can be powernulled and that characters with very badluck have supernatural luck in their profiles as well.

Wouldn't this be limited fear manipulation since it works against supernatural beings.

And adding that.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. Y'know what.... What is written in Touma's intelligence is fine. Methinks, I just need to add one of the suggested ratings in the Intelligence Page to make it fit with current intelligence ratings on other profiles on the wiki, and I can call it a day.

Hm, would Average, Possibly Gifted work for Touma? Average is due to him being a failing student (mostly due to missing school a shit-ton), and Gifted due to him being a very good strategist that is very good at figuring out the mechanics and weak points in a magician or esper's powers, analyzing the enemy's motivations, etc?

 

[MrOMG]

We should also add the fact that Touma is so unlucky that his failure always saves his life. This was shown and told in NT9 where Othinus says that Touma cannot die the normal way because his bad luck will always keep him alive, and the second time we are told this by the narrative itself before the jump, we are told that Touma himself without realizing it will always stay alive thanks to his bad luck.

For an instant, Kamijou gave a relaxed expression that resembled a bizarre smile.

But anyone could tell he was definitely not smiling.

Othinus ignored it.

"I could kill you, but I am sure you have realized the problem with that. You have a way of somehow escaping dangerous situations brought about by external factors. Your inability to die when you should may be the greatest of all misfortunes you have been constantly exposed to. I can kill you with odds greater than 99%, but if you want to fill the gap and reach 100%, it would be faster to end your own life. That would be the most wholesome option for the world."

How should he kill himself?

Kamijou vaguely pondered that question as he wandered aimlessly through the streets. The answer would change where he had to go. He had never given it thought before. Othinus's comments had been right on the mark. He had become so used to experiencing such unreasonable misfortune for so long that no normal trouble would kill him. Whether he was aware of it or not, he would somehow avoid death.

 

[ElixirBlue]

We should also add the fact that Touma is so unlucky that his failure always saves his life. This was shown and told in NT9 where Othinus says that Touma cannot die the normal way because his bad luck will always keep him alive, and the second time we are told this by the narrative itself before the jump, we are told that Touma himself without realizing it will always stay alive thanks to his bad luck.

Touma with Immortality Type 8?

 

[MrOMG]

Touma with Immortality Type 8?

I don't know

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It could be interpreted as Touma just experiencing so much shit, he is too tough to die in ways people normally die or smth.

 

[XDragnoir]

I agree. His profile already mentions Precog without listing it and I've seen it being used in some matches.

Precog is the name his Instinctive Reaction has in-verse, he doesn't have actual Precog on his profile cause he doesn't see the future.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Precog is the name his Instinctive Reaction has in-verse, he doesn't have actual Precog on his profile cause he doesn't see the future.

Which doesn't matter. As the stated by the Precog Page itself; Precognition may be based on any number of factors; it may be based on reading the minute body movements of an opponent, predicting their actions through observation, mathematical predictions, or through some unspecified magical or astronomical means, among any other number of abilities. Touma is qualified for Precog now, and is listed as an example himself. Should also mention that a character (on the wiki) has Precognition based on their ability to predict their opponent's actions thanks to their combat experience.

 

[XDragnoir]

Which is why i didn't say i disagree with it, i was just explaining why it had been used in threads without being on his profile.

So yeah, i agree with everything.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Kek, silly me. Will add you! ... and the others as well.

 

[Aseka]

Agree to all, except for Fear Manip, it's limited to supernatural beings.

 

[Aseka]

Agree to all, except for Fear Manip, it's limited to supernatural beings.

Also, iirc, Gabriel in the form of Misha Kreutzev also fear Touma's IB, in OT 4, Gabriel won't touch IB even she doesn't know what IB can do.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Added the limited part already.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

BUMP

 

[MrOMG]

I can also add that Touma understands the essence of a person very quickly. Touma watched Mathers for a few minutes, but even that was enough for Touma to understand what kind of person Mathers is.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. I think that probs only fit in the intelligence section of a profile. Maybe you can write something up?

 

[MrOMG]

Hm. I think that probs only fit in the intelligence section of a profile. Maybe you can write something up?

Try to write about Touma's intelligence?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

In profiles, there is a small section which is used to describe a character's intelligence. On Touma's page, he has this -

Intelligence: He's not smart enough to keep up with his education (Though this is mainly because of all the time he's forced to skip school), but he has been shown to be an excellent strategist in battle and is very proficient at figuring out the mechanics and weak points in a magician or esper's powers, analyzing the enemy's motivations, etc.

It currently doesn't fit with the standard for current intelligence ratings for other profiles, tho - and it should be something like this.

Intelligence: Average, Possibly Above Average/Gifted (He's not smart enough to keep up with his education through this is mainly because of all the time he's forced to skip school, but he has been shown to be an excellent strategist in battle and is very proficient at figuring out the mechanics and weak points in a magician or esper's powers, analyzing the enemy's motivations, etc.)

Average is due to Touma being a normal high student in terms of academics, Possibly Above Average/Gifted is in regards to Touma's battle IQ and whatnot.

 

[MrOMG]

I don't think it came out well.


The level of intelligence is above average. It has been said that Touma is quite intelligent when it comes to his specialization. He was able to deceive Birdway, an extremely intelligent mage by creating a complex plan, and was also able to foresee the actions of two whole groups of mages. He is extremely fast at understanding a person's essence and motives. Touma was able to understand in just a few minutes what kind of person Mathers is. This is why Touma is able to manipulate people very well and find their weaknesses, as Touma is very good at analyzing people./ Able to distort his own personality, ideals, principles and definitions of good and evil almost instantly, in order to adapt to the situation as much as possible. It has been said that on a fundamental level he is a robot whose only goal is to save other people.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I don't think it came out well.


The level of intelligence is above average. It has been said that Touma is quite intelligent when it comes to his specialization. He was able to deceive Birdway, an extremely intelligent mage by creating a complex plan, and was also able to foresee the actions of two whole groups of mages. He is extremely fast at understanding a person's essence and motives. Touma was able to understand in just a few minutes what kind of person Mathers is. This is why Touma is able to manipulate people very well and find their weaknesses, as Touma is very good at analyzing people./ Able to distort his own personality, ideals, principles and definitions of good and evil almost instantly, in order to adapt to the situation as much as possible. It has been said that on a fundamental level he is a robot whose only goal is to save other people.

Hm. Would this work? Tried to shorten it.

Intelligence: Above Average, Possibly Gifted (He's not smart enough to keep up with his education through this is mainly because of all the time he's forced to skip school. Outside of academics, however, Touma is notably more intelligent; him being an excellent strategist in battle, rather proficient at figuring out the mechanics and weak points in powers, and capable of analyzing the enemy's essence and motivations to understand them and manipulate them by finding their weaknesses)

Could this work, or could I better word it?

 

[MrOMG]

Hm. Would this work? Tried to shorten it.

Intelligence: Above Average, Possibly Gifted (He's not smart enough to keep up with his education through this is mainly because of all the time he's forced to skip school. Outside of academics, however, Touma is notably more intelligent; him being an excellent strategist in battle, rather proficient at figuring out the mechanics and weak points in powers, and capable of analyzing the enemy's essence and motivations to understand them and manipulate them by finding their weaknesses)

Could this work, or could I better word it?

Still, it should be mentioned that Touma is able to beat intellectually (in terms of manipulating people) very smart people, such as Birdway, and the fact that he can understand a person in just a couple of minutes. If we ignore the really stupid scenes, like when Touma explains aloud how to use WR, Touma is actually a very smart person, superior to real people. There are no people in our world that are that smart that can understand a person in a couple of minutes. In short, Touma is a typical anime character with an incredibly high QI.

 

[DontTalkDT]

OP is fine IMO with some exceptions.

The supernatural luck should definitely have a note in the P&A that it is bad luck.
The precognition should be mentioned to be analytic prediction or something, not true precog.
NPI is fine, attack reflection is stretching things. It's like giving attack reflection for being able to throw a stone thrown at you back to the attacker.
Fear Manipulation is IMO also stretching things. It's like giving spiders fear manip because many people are scared of them. I think this is a similarily natural fear of something that can erase you, not supernaturally induced fear.

The intelligence section suggested in the sandbox is fine with me.

Still, it should be mentioned that Touma is able to beat intellectually (in terms of manipulating people) very smart people, such as Birdway, and the fact that he can understand a person in just a couple of minutes. If we ignore the really stupid scenes, like when Touma explains aloud how to use WR, Touma is actually a very smart person, superior to real people. There are no people in our world that are that smart that can understand a person in a couple of minutes. In short, Touma is a typical anime character with an incredibly high QI.

Sounds nice on paper, but I can't think of any particular instance where his tricks or reasoning about character's motivations are so advanced that the average person can't follow them.

Beating geniuses by fairly normal means is his thing.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The supernatural luck should definitely have a note in the P&A that it is bad luck.

Ye. Just forgot to add that.

The precognition should be mentioned to be analytic prediction or something, not true precog.

Gotcha. Was thinking of adding a note that is similar to the note Archer (Fate/Stay Night) Precognition has, which is, [Precognition (Can predict his opponent's actions based on his combat experience).]

NPI is fine, attack reflection is stretching things. It's like giving attack reflection for being able to throw a stone thrown at you back to the attacker.

Ye, was starting to think the same way regarding attack reflection.

Fear Manipulation is IMO also stretching things. It's like giving spiders fear manip because many people are scared of them. I think this is a similarily natural fear of something that can erase you, not supernaturally induced fear.

Have to disagree on this, tho. On the fear manip page, it says it is the ability in which to inflict a level of "fear" on the target using supernatural means. Which fits Hyouka's reactions to IB. Like... making a non-sentient existence sentient due to making them fear, should fit the criteria of inflicting a level of "fear" on the target using supernatural means, ye?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Well... Applied the edits. Removed Attack Reflection and added notes to Touma's precog and supernatural luck. Anything else we're missing for Touma's powers & abilities?

 

[MrOMG]

If I remember correctly, in GT7, Touma was able to use precog of his own free will. I'll try to find that quote soon.

 

[MrOMG]

I found the right quote.

This probably wasn’t about Carneades. If he simply hated that story about a plank, he wouldn’t be trying to solve this by killing Kamijou. Trismegistus was a throwaway penname shared by academics in an older age. So who was this guy?
Kamijou stepped on a frozen puddle.
He didn’t have time to prepare for the impact.
They had more than 10m between them, but since Aradia had been cut down in front of him, he could tell the length of the cane sword and the range of the actual attack did not match.
From there, Kamijou Touma recalled something else.
He had to set aside the intense fear of death trying to numb the back of his mind and the uncontrollable racing of his heart. He couldn’t forget what really mattered. What did he need to focus on most here?
Transcendent Aradia.
First and foremost, he needed to prevent any further attacks on her while she lay motionless on the ground.
It was distorted.
To Kamijou, the deadly slash flying straight toward him looked a lot like an exploding firework.
The roar of bursting air arrived after a short delay. The explosive sound crashed into his right eardrum as he just barely dodged to the side. The green grass was torn through and a zigzagging line of destruction sent dark soil soaring into the sky.
This time, he had done it with his own willpower.
Time had seemed to stretch out infinitely, but it soon returned to normal.
The rose hedge behind him was torn through.
(Damn, I can’t let this scare me so much. Aradia’s in trouble if I don’t move in and negate this with Imagine Breaker!!)
“Tch!!”
“I feel like clicking my tongue as well. I clearly have a long way to go as a Transcendent if I fail to kill my target with the first attack, even if outdoor battles do add in many complicated environmental factors. I cannot look my Alice in the eye after this.”

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Nice. And I suppose that is it for Touma, then, Once DT says their piece regarding Fear Manip, I'mma fix Touma's profile with the stuff I did in the sandbox - and after that... continue my calc work for ToAru, so I can do my verse-wide AP & Dura ToAru CRT!

 

[DontTalkDT]

Have to disagree on this, tho. On the fear manip page, it says it is the ability in which to inflict a level of "fear" on the target using supernatural means. Which fits Hyouka's reactions to IB. Like... making a non-sentient existence sentient due to making them fear, should fit the criteria of inflicting a level of "fear" on the target using supernatural means, ye?

Questionable, but fine. However, it should have a note that this is so extremely limited that it literally never worked on anything besides that one specific case, including many other supernatural creatures.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

To be fair, Touma has not met sentient creatures that would react to IB like Hyouka and Gabriel would (granted, the latter had a lesser reaction to IB than the former), since Touma has only been fighting and meeting people who won't get negated by IB if he touches them - 'sides, I think the limited served as good enough, so a note won't be needed.

Oh, ye... Touma's profiles needs to be unlocked, so I can add the edits.

 

[DontTalkDT]

He met Qliphah who didn't have a very notable reaction either. Coronzon, after being disembodied, didn't show much as well.
There definitely needs to be an explanation. In general, everything but the most basic abilities should have one on the profile. Either in the notable A/T or in the P&A. However, for a limited ability in particular it seems reasonable to explain in which way it is limited.

(probably should add a sentence about the copying resistance and stuff as well somewhere)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. Kamachi forgot? Idk. It is a thing, so gotta mention it. No idea of the best wording for it... Like maybe... Limited Fear Manipulation: (Only against specific supernatural beings) or smth?

 

[XDragnoir]

He met Qliphah who didn't have a very notable reaction either. Coronzon, after being disembodied, didn't show much as well.
There definitely needs to be an explanation. In general, everything but the most basic abilities should have one on the profile. Either in the notable A/T or in the P&A. However, for a limited ability in particular it seems reasonable to explain in which way it is limited.

(probably should add a sentence about the copying resistance and stuff as well somewhere)

You sure he met Qliphah when he had IB? Iirc during NT22 Qliphah was with Accel most of the time and didn't get to see Touma directly, while during NT22R Touma didn't have IB when meeting Qliphah and the others, don't remember they interacting before that too.

While Coronzon did fear IB (or she feared Touma? I will read it again rn)