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Minor Critique About KH Power Of Waking

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Hey, I have a very minor Critique about the Keyblade page for KH, specifically the POW and it's not exactly big enough imo to be put in the CRT area (I don't have some long winded, through argument for my thoughts.).

So on the profile, it states, and I quote, "Time Travel (Sora and Xehanort have misused the Power of Waking to time travel without compromising their bodies[5])"
Now, I have no qualms about the Time Travel itself being on it- Sora pretty blatantly used it.
But why is Xehanort here? I thought it was stated well beforehand that his means of Time Travel was completely different. He was granted the power, in some degree, by Ansem Seeker of Darkness, who traveled back in time to give him the ability via... Well, we don't know- And it's pretty well known that Ansem can't use a Keyblade, let alone show off the POW. The main Time Traveling Xehanort we see, Young Xehanort, seems to be performing a entirely different form of Time Travel as Sora, and in fact, it seems implied that he lacks a proper body (The only times he appears while time traveling are in BBS, KHDDD, and KH3). In KHBBS, we never see him under the hood, and he almost seems to act more like a Phantom Heart using a Black Cloak as a sort of Make-Shift appearance rather than someone with a full body. In DDD, even beings like Ansem and Xemnas who would have no normal appearance were shown to have a form in the Realm of Sleep, implying that there is a bit more leeway there. And in KH3, it's heavily implied that, save for Master Xehanort himself, Terra-Xehanort, and all the Nobodies of the Org (Sans Xemnas), they're using Replica Bodies to appear in physical form there.

While indeed, Xehanort does give some ominous threats related to messing with time, which seem to be the on page justification, keep in mind this is Xehanort. It's not that far of a stretch to believe that he would have knowledge on the ramifications of the Power without having actually used it itself. It'd be very in Character for Terra-Xehanort and Young Xehanort to keep teasing Sora with the price he has to pay, just to get under his skin, as we see him manipulate character's, well... A multitude of times. Likewise, Sora saying that Xehanort isn't the only one who can travel through time shouldn't equate to them using the same means. It's like saying that since Ansem appeared in the ROD and Aqua also did, that they used the same path.

Ofc, Xehanort 99% likely still has, and can use, the POW- That's not contended. Likewise, he probably could use it to time travel. But I heavily question the idea that he already has used it for such a thing. At best, this seems questionable and to be jumping to conclusions. At worst, it looks like blatantly ignoring evidence that would suggest Xehanort used a safer route to get his selves to rendezvous. After all, it'd be pretty bad looking for him if, mid-keyblade war, his past self faded away to go fight some secret boss.

Anyways, yeah, all I'm wondering is if there is any more concrete reasoning than just that, and if there's not, I'd, prolly advise we get that changed and pull Xehanort off that tidbit.
 
sorry this is a bit off topic but i tried to ask a bit ago and no one said anything, whats with 2-A kingdom hearts, i havent found any reasoning on profiles other than scaling to other characters, most of whom are only 2-B
 
That, is exceptionally off topic bruh. While 2-A kinda just, makes sense to me, I dunno the real reasoning behind it. You might wanna check out previous KH CRT's on that.
 
Did... You not read the post? I understand it was a bit long, but...

A, This is not me questioning if Xehanort has it. This is me questioning why it is stated that he used it when we have no clear confirmation. If you're arguing that because of his words of "You too also (having) taken the forbidden path", honestly that can easily just be Xehanort having said this to manipulate Sora. As I'm certain you know, Xehanort, multiple times, has lied or exaggerated something to manipulate the emotions of the good guy's. The most prominent example being literally any cutscene between Xehanort and Terra in BBS.Terra Xehanort and Young Xehanort are two of the most volatile and aggressive Xehanort's vocally, so them talking about the sacrifice Sora has made and the price he will pay can just be them trying to rile Sora up.

B, I'm asking why Xehanort is on the page, specifically listed as having used the power to travel, when the only instances we see of him time traveling have had completely different properties from what we see Sora accomplish. As stated before, his Young self only traveled after Ansem visited him to give him the power, as is heavily clarified in BBS.

Tl:dr, I didn't say specifically that Xehanort doesn't have the POW, as he most likely does, seeing how well he understands it. I'm saying there is not enough proof to say that Xehanort used the Power to Time Travel. The justification I have seen so far is heavily questionable, and the conclusion feels more like conjecture if anything. Xehanort is a known liar, so taking his word here for a fact and then applying to a profile is questionable. There can be times that we should implement something when it's not clearly stated, granted, but this really doesn't feel like one of them.
 
Oh, sorry, but yeah, your wording is a bit weird at times, anyways...

A: We not only see Young Xehanort talk about Sora having to pay a price for using the Power of Waking recklessly, we also see that Xehanort has to abide to the same laws of time in the series as other characters.

B: A power is still a power, Xehanort not using the PoW recklessly in-character is irrelevant for the purposes in here, especially when he technically has the capability to do so.

Eh, Xehanort lying here is assumptive as he has no reason to lie here, as much as he even bothered warning Sora and Chirithy then confirmed as much.
 
Oh, sorry, but yeah, your wording is a bit weird at times, anyways...

A: We not only see Young Xehanort talk about Sora having to pay a price for using the Power of Waking recklessly, we also see that Xehanort has to abide to the same laws of time in the series as other characters.

B: A power is still a power, Xehanort not using the PoW recklessly in-character is irrelevant for the purposes in here, especially when he technically has the capability to do so.

Eh, Xehanort lying here is assumptive as he has no reason to lie here, as much as he even bothered warning Sora and Chirithy then confirmed as much.
Apologies if my wording is a bit confusing, lol.

A. The properties of the time travels performed by Xehanort and Sora are vastly different. When Sora uses the Power of Waking to time travel, he essentially breaks a linear timeline. Whereas Xehanort's Time Travel does not: It was always fated to occur as per the book of prophecies, as the events that occured in KH3, with Darkness defeating Light had been written. Further more, there is little evidence to Suggest Xehanort kept his corporeal body when he time traveled. The only times we see YX time travel and have a physical appearance are in the realm of dreams, a place where Xemnas, Ansem and the like can freely appear in spite of lacking bodies, and KH3, where half the org are using Replica's to keep themselves tethered. Inversely, Sora appears to remain in his body while using the POW

B. It is not inherently about him using it recklessly, rather than me questioning if it can truly be said that he used the power of waking.

If anything, Taking his word for a fact is assumptious. Why would he say that? To psyche Sora, get under his skin. From the way Xehanort presents himself, he's clearly relishing in Sora's slightly angered responses. The more he agitates Sora, the more likely Sora is to make mistakes, and what would be better for Xehanort's plan than for Sora to make a mistake? Xehanort, in this situation, is a unreliable source, because he would want to rile Sora up, upset him, and make him make mistakes. It's quite a similar strategy to Xehanort's manipulation of Terra. Making him upset, causing him to make a mistake that allowed Xehanort to get the advantage- It is a different situation, but the point is that it's in Xehanort's MO to say and do whatever it takes to achieve his goal.

I also want to clarify, even though I am disagreeing with the justifications you bring, I am glad that you took the time to come and respond to this question.
 
A. I know it's weird, but the thing is that Sora specifically misused it to restore Hearts after they were erased from existence, as Chirithy said, while Xehanort didn't, merely time traveling has different effects on the timeline depending on what's done, rather than in general.

Re Mind explains their appearance in KH3D to be just like in KHIII, aka, they're just time traveling Hearts from the past into artificial vessels, and yes, that includes Xemnas, a Ultimania implies the KH of people in KHII gave him a heart (and it's basically confirmed in KHIII), but that's a bit off-topic and I'm merely clarifying just in case.

Young Xehanort also uses time travel in his boss battle with Riku to "reset" it.

B. Nah, that was moreso to build them as vessels of darkness, on Terra to be more comfortable after taking his body, while on Sora to set him up as a member of the Real Org XIII. Past that point playing around his emotions is of no real use, especially after they just took Xion instead, plus it's stated that if Xehanort ever comes back after KHIII he wouldn't be a bad guy anymore (Melody of Memory Xehanort doesn't count as that's just a physical memory of Kairi, as much as "native" inhabitants of Castle Oblivion aren't the real deal).
 
A. I know it's weird, but the thing is that Sora specifically misused it to restore Hearts after they were erased from existence, as Chirithy said, while Xehanort didn't, merely time traveling has different effects on the timeline depending on what's done, rather than in general.

Re Mind explains their appearance in KH3D to be just like in KHIII, aka, they're just time traveling Hearts from the past into artificial vessels, and yes, that includes Xemnas, a Ultimania implies the KH of people in KHII gave him a heart (and it's basically confirmed in KHIII), but that's a bit off-topic and I'm merely clarifying just in case.

Young Xehanort also uses time travel in his boss battle with Riku to "reset" it.
Can you show me a scan of the explanation in Re: Mind? I want to look at the wording, though if you want me to go find it myself, that is understandable. And yes, I know about Xemnas. There were multiple implications that he began to feel during his final fights in KH2, as well as the ultimania.

And yes, YX uses Time Travel. But I think that assuming it's the Power of Waking is conjecture at best. We've seen other cases of beings time traveling without the Power of Waking, most notably being Ansem Seeker of Darkness, who time traveled back to meet YX in the first place. Seeing as Ansem, due to being a Heartless, is directly opposed to the Keyblade on a spiritual and instinctual level (as all Keyblades have the capacity to slay Heartless, and serve as beacons to attract Lesser Heartless who see it as a imminent threat), there's no way he used the Power of Waking there. Essentially, there's little indication that YX used the POW beyond some threats and words from a known liar.

B. In the case of Terra, yes, that was his intention. But to believe he would only use lies and manipulation to get his seekers into place is a bit of mischaracterization. Xehanort has something to gain from lying to Sora, and that's aggravating him. Upsetting him. Xehanort has stated indirectly and consistently been shown to be willing to do anything to achieve his goal, and that would include messing with the Heroes to mentally debuff them in some capacity. For example: Terranorts consistent manipulation of Aqua and Ven's emotions, having at one point tricked them so he could get a surprise attack on Ventus. Thinking that Terranort would be willing to sprinkle a bit of a lie in for the sake of upsetting Sora and causing him to potentially make mistakes is not a far fetched conclusion. And the KH3 statement likely does not apply to Re:Mind, which is a extension of KH3. We see Xehanort antagonize Sora, both as his Terranort Self and his Master self, multiple times during the DLC. Saying that Xehanort wouldn't play with the emotions of his opponents is like saying that Riku Replica wouldn't taunt his opponent: It's wayyy out of character for them to not do so when given the chance. Even after attaining KH and the X-Blade, Xehanort is still acting antagonistically towards Sora, Donald, Goofy... And, Sora. (And as Inconsequential to the topic as it is, I acknowledge you are correct about MoM Xehanort not being the real one.)
 
Here (watch up until around 3:05), note the "once more".

Hmmm... I've been thinking about it and I think you may be right, as much as Maleficent shouldn't have the PoW by merely time traveling to the age of fairy tales.
 
I'm... Not sure that the scan properly explains their appearance in 3D fully- It does explain the one's who time traveled specifically to arrive at that moment, and that they are doing so again, though I'm not sure this confirms if they appeared in Replica's during DDD... Though, that's beside the point, isn't it? Thanks for the scan, heavily appreciated.

And yeah, seeing as the PoW is specifically a Keyblade bound power, and yet character's without a Keyblade can still Time Travel via a different means, you can see what I'm getting at.
 
Well, there's really no other way they'd appear at that time, so it'd be assumptive to go over other options when there's restrictions to time travel on the setting as is.

Yeah, the pages should be edited accordingly, however, Xehanort should retain the capability to time travel hearts, rather than the PoW.
 
True. Even though it is the realm of dreams, assuming that they aren't in Replica's likely pushed it too far.

And yeah, Xehanort gathering hearts via Time Travel is Undeniable, Agreed.
 
So, with that said, should I make a separate CRT for it? This would be a first for me, so I'm not fully accustomed with what to do.
 
Uh... usually you first require at least one staff member to approve a revision, then you may edit the pages accordingly on the site, while also linking this thread as the reasoning in the edit summary subsection.
 
Ok... So should I make a CRT, link this thread, and then notify a staff? Or would it be ok to just skip the CRT part and go straight to staff with this thread? I didn't quite expect to get this far, unfortunately...
 
Usually leave it to the discretion of staff, Q&A subforum threads being used to justify changes on pages isn't unheard of in any case.
 
Alright. At some point I'll ask a staff member to check this out, if that's not considered impolite/improper or smth like that then. Thanks a ton for your help.
 
Usually you should contact staff members that are considered as knowledgeable on the series involved, aka, that are listed here, in any case I recall @Nehz_XZX is already aware of this thread, so just wait.
 
So, there aren't going to be any changes for Xehanort's Time Travel powers but it is suggested that we should change the wording of the justification that says that Xehanort already used it since we cannot completely trust what he is saying? I would be fine with that if that is how it is.
 
I'm skeptical about the idea of Xehanort possibly not having the Power of Waking but I won't stop you from making the change if you think that this should be done.
 
Unless there is anything on the Xehanort pages, which last to my knowledge there isn't, that would imply he used PoW, should just be the Keyblade page.
 
sorry this is a bit off topic but i tried to ask a bit ago and no one said anything, whats with 2-A kingdom hearts, i havent found any reasoning on profiles other than scaling to other characters, most of whom are only 2-B
1 World = 1 Low 2-C Structure
There are as many Worlds as there are stars in the night sky = 2-B
The Ocean Between, which is the space between the Worlds, is infinite = 2-A
More here, pls read the blogs.
 
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