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Intro​

Youtube recommended was being weird, as usual, and it linked me to this little video.



It made me remember that all jokes aside, Endermen do find arrows too easy to react to and avoid, no matter if it's coming from behind them or if it's moving at terminal velocity. For all intents and purposes, Endermen and their following scaling should not be limited to the speed of arrows when they obviously exceed it, by a lot.

So I did some digging and found the really old Minecraft Massively Hypersonic speed downgrade thread to figure out why this rating was chosen. TL: DR; There was originally going to be a proper alternate speed proposal. However, the people in that thread took too long to agree to downgrade, so by the time everyone finally reached an agreement to downgrade, most didn't even care about the thread anymore and they just slapped on a rating to call it a day. So I'm going to finish what was started.

Upgrade​


Taking the idea of the original speed downgrade thread, it takes the original Endermen calc and instead replaces the value of 1 millimeter to 1/16th of a meter as the smallest canonical unit of measurement in the game. Heck, even the comments of the original endermen calc agreed to this distance, as well as the one who made the calc. Honestly with this majority vote, I have no idea how the original millimeter distance became the chosen value, but all of that is in the past anyways.

(1/16) meters/100 meters per second=0.000625 seconds. That's Supersonic+ reactions, heck it's borderlines hypersonic. Endermen consistently react and teleport out of the way from things like this, so this is a very casual speed for them. The fact that there are people who can constantly tag them means that those people that are outpacing Endermen reactions enough to strike them before they think of teleporting. Along with the fact that it's borderline hypersonic (0.00058 seconds) for a purely casual feat, it's reasonable to argue for a hypersonic key.

Potential Arguments​


Potential Argument A: "Outlier"

There is no contradiction to this feat ever shown in the game, especially considering that this will only scale to whoever scale to Endermen, that being: Endermen (reactions only), Endermites, the Player, the Wither, the Ender Dragon, the Iron Golem, and any more, should people make valid arguments on why they should scale (which means if it can't be proven, they get downgraded).

Potential Argument B: "Endermen have an innate ability to avoid projectiles"

That's never stated, it's mere headcanon and overreliance on game mechanics to justify abilities. Even the mobestiary says they teleport to dodge peril, so this is a moot point.

Potential Argument C: "Endermen are faster than the Player"

This idea comes from the fact that Endermen travel speed is faster than the player. Endermen otherwise show no sign of superiority combat-wise, and even if they did, simply being faster alone would not debunk the fact that the Player is fast enough to tag them in the first place.

Summary​


TL: DR;
Speed Upgrades
Enderman: At least Supersonic+, likely Hypersonic reaction speeds (casually reacts to point blank incoming arrows and never fails to avoid them)
Endermite: Hypersonic combat and reaction speeds (able to tag Endermen)
The Player: Hypersonic combat and reaction speeds (fast enough to strike an Enderman before they can react and teleport away)
Wither: Hypersonic combat and reaction speeds (comparable to The Player, can tag Endermen with their wither skulls)
Ender Dragon: Hypersonic combat and reaction speeds (comparable to The Player, able to tag numerous Endermen at a time)
Iron Golem: Hypersonic combat and reaction speeds (can fight with Endermen)
 
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I see no reason why this shouldn't scale to their reaction speed especially with the fact that the mobeastiary states the Enderman will use their pearls to teleport from peril, that's very cleary wording from essentially the WoG that's saying they're consciously dodging with pearls in order to not be hit which would scale to their reactions along with other cast listed above.
 
While we wait for a calc member to accept the blog, are there any other mobs in Minecraft that would have a reason to scale to the Enderman and/or the Player in speed?
 
Nothing that is out now but eventually the Warden when it releases with the full 1.17 build. It can kill a player in full Netherite armor in 2 attacks. It's also shown to blitz the player or be really fast in it's reveal clip.
 
Nothing that is out now but eventually the Warden when it releases with the full 1.17 build. It can kill a player in full Netherite armor in 2 attacks. It's also shown to blitz the player or be really fast in it's reveal clip.
According to Minecraft's gamepedia, it does seem like it would attack Endermen too, but for now I'll just keep an eye on it until it appears in a beta that can be properly tested.
 
Actually, it would be Supersonic+ perception, not reaction. As a result, you can't scale it to speed that easily at all. That lies in the nature of the matter: You only have a timeframe, while speed, even reaction speed, needs time and distance. (See Rule 1 on the Reactions page)

I also argue that it is strongly inconsistent and at a minimum shouldn't be scaled. That's because within the same game mechanics this calc is based on we see that a player's punch is in fact slower than the arrow and doesn't get dodged.
Every feat of the Enderman getting hit by something slower than an arrow, and more importantly by attacks that take longer than the suggested perception time, stands in contradiction to the idea of it having said reaction time.
It basically would come down to overruling the game mechanic given speed of the player by using the game mechanic speed of the arrow. Taking one as accurate canonical depiction and not the other would be weird.
 
The calculation uses both speed and distance to find the time that the Enderman would react, I don't see how that breaks the first rules of reactions. On top of that, perception means the ability to sense and become aware of your surroundings, while reaction means performing an action in response to a situation. The enderman perceives peril, and teleports to avoid it. That's the textbook definition of perception and reaction. On top of that, reactions speed on the wiki is defined as "reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range," along with using an example of "For example, let's say that character A shoots at character B with a gun and character B dodges. That is reaction speed." This is nigh exactly what the Enderman does, so there's honestly no real reason it should be changed to perception speed (whatever that's supposed to mean).

The problem with calling it consistent on the basis of game mechanics is that one, if we were to take game mechanics literally, attacks would be instantaneous since Minecraft is not a combat oriented game. They don't use hurtboxes in their attack animation, it's a point and click to do damage, or bump into the enemy to get damaged. On top of that, it's also backed up, lore-wise, that they deliberately state Endermen "dodge such peril as arrows", so that solidifies the fact that Enderman react and avoid things moving as fast as arrows, hence why the speed of arrows is used. It's taken as canonical because even the lore addresses it as canonical, so this isn't a matter of game mechanics overriding game mechanics, but lore overriding game mechanics.
 
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... No.

No, this is stupid.

Literally no other mob in the game can dodge arrows. Arrows, equally, are faster than just about any form of combat. Endermen are the ONLY mob capable of avoiding it, and have to do so via teleportation - and if teleportation is by thought, which is intuitive given a lack of any required movements, it's easy to argue that this isn't impressive at all and that it's entirely possible to have a single thought in that time without upgrading all their speeds.

Furthermore, iron golems attack slower than most mobs, and you're scaling endermites why? Yet The Player scales? No, this entire CRT is an absolute mess.

There is no basis of why things are scaling to each other. Donttalk is EXACTLY correct and this CRT is so incredibly, erroneously wrong and presumptuous (hypersonic water buckets, apparently?) that I'm just about tempted to close it right now.
 
... No.

No, this is stupid.

Literally no other mob in the game can dodge arrows. Arrows, equally, are faster than just about any form of combat. Endermen are the ONLY mob capable of avoiding it, and have to do so via teleportation - and if teleportation is by thought, which is intuitive given a lack of any required movements, it's easy to argue that this isn't impressive at all and that it's entirely possible to have a single thought in that time without upgrading all their speeds.

Furthermore, iron golems attack slower than most mobs, and you're scaling endermites why? Yet The Player scales? No, this entire CRT is an absolute mess.

There is no basis of why things are scaling to each other. Donttalk is EXACTLY correct and this CRT is so incredibly, erroneously wrong and presumptuous (hypersonic water buckets, apparently?) that I'm just about tempted to close it right now.
Well, how could Endermen dodge a barrage of arrows like this?
 
A. Game Mechanics

B. An innate ability

C. Literally anything besides "They can dodge a faster attack but not a slower attack, so naturally, we assume the slower attack is faster than the faster attack for some reason" and scaling this to one of the slowest moving and slowest attacking mobs in the entire game.
 
... No.

No, this is stupid.

Literally no other mob in the game can dodge arrows. Arrows, equally, are faster than just about any form of combat. Endermen are the ONLY mob capable of avoiding it, and have to do so via teleportation - and if teleportation is by thought, which is intuitive given a lack of any required movements, it's easy to argue that this isn't impressive at all and that it's entirely possible to have a single thought in that time without upgrading all their speeds.

Furthermore, iron golems attack slower than most mobs, and you're scaling endermites why? Yet The Player scales? No, this entire CRT is an absolute mess.

There is no basis of why things are scaling to each other. Donttalk is EXACTLY correct and this CRT is so incredibly, erroneously wrong and presumptuous (hypersonic water buckets, apparently?) that I'm just about tempted to close it right now.
That thought is the sensing of peril and teleporting to avoid it, as the mobestiary says. It's not some instinctive reaction when it's intentionally done with the intent to dodge.

I also don't understand where you're getting the idea that Iron Golems attack slower than most mobs. The most I can possibly think of is if you're referring to their DPS or something but that makes no sense since Iron Golems hit just as fast as the rest. So what are you even implying here?

I don't even know why you're bringing up hypersonic water buckets in the first place, not a single clue what you're implying with that.

Your second comment is literally just restating everything I've already addressed in the original post.
 
I'd like to see the scan, but "sensing of peril" quite literally implies instinctive sense for danger or reaction, so I don't know what you're saying.

Iron Golems are not known for attacking quickly and definitely aren't faster than any other mobs.

Endermen aren't able to dodge water flowing on them, or sword swipes, or... literally anything that's not a projectile, including extremely slow attacks like axes.

What I'm implying is that your logic is such a reach I can barely even entertain it. You're trying to scale mobs above others of equal or lesser speed, and scaling slower attacks over faster attacks, and are ignoring every single inconsistency, and the idea that it could be either instinctual, or simply done with a single thought achieved through distance or spot dodging (which would both make the feat far less impressive) with anything else attributed to game mechanics or inconsistencies.

In other words, there is a steaming pile of problems with this.
 
A. Game Mechanics

B. An innate ability

C. Literally anything besides "They can dodge a faster attack but not a slower attack, so naturally, we assume the slower attack is faster than the faster attack for some reason" and scaling this to one of the slowest moving and slowest attacking mobs in the entire game.
game mechanic
literally has nothing but gameplay
 
... What's your point. You haven't actually pointed out or shown anything.
 
I'd like to see the scan, but "sensing of peril" quite literally implies instinctive sense for danger or reaction, so I don't know what you're saying.
It one of the links in the original post, I've linked all my sources of evidences for that very reason.
Iron Golems are not known for attacking quickly and definitely aren't faster than any other mobs.
Iron Golems are not known for attacking slowly.. or, known for anything relating to speed in the first place, because that's not the point of their existence. This argument is the equivalent of downgrading characters like Batman to peak human because "he's known to be peak human".
Endermen aren't able to dodge water flowing on them, or sword swipes, or... literally anything that's not a projectile, including extremely slow attacks like axes.
If you're referring to rain, not only does rain tend to be hard to see to begin with (hence why people tend to stick their hands out to test if it's raining), but it's basically omnipresent for everywhere not under shelter. As for the axes, you're referring to attack cooldowns, not attacks themselves. Not only that, they don't have a set melee speed either because Minecraft is a point and click combat game, not a hurtbox game. Nothing says Steve swings an axe as slow as a human anyways, he's not even truly considered a human, so I don't understand why we should assume his sword swipes are human speed just to make this an outlier.
What I'm implying is that your logic is such a reach I can barely even entertain it. You're trying to scale mobs above others of equal or lesser speed, and scaling slower attacks over faster attacks, and are ignoring every single inconsistency, and the idea that it could be either instinctual, or simply done with a single thought achieved through distance or spot dodging (which would both make the feat far less impressive) with anything else attributed to game mechanics or inconsistencies.
How is the logic a reach? First off I'm not even changing any logic: this is literally the scaling Minecraft has had for its speed since forever, all I'm doing is updating numbers. In fact, as of now most mobs have scaling to the endermen from scaling to the player, and I stated in this thread that those with no good reason to scale to Endermen would downscale. Every mob I have listed can attack the enderman. You'd rather stick with the idea of "it could" rather than what is shown. I don't even understand why you think intentionally designing the enderman to dodge hostile projectiles is "game mechanics".
Edit: downgraded, not downscale
 
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Not true minecraft has it's mob bestiary as well as actual novels surrounding the game that explain things and add lore to the literal core gameplay, that of which we already know exist and the developers themselves have stated there is lore and also denying the statement of mob bestiary is like denying WOG or saying that they're lying about their explanation of how and why enderman teleport and react to "peril" in which case puts you in a stance to disprove the statement made are true and that they're in fact false.
 
Oh well I should've worded my points better to align with you da_lunge but yeah he's right minecraft doesn't have any contradictions of anything we see in gameplay not even in the novels or bestiary themselves so yeah Mortizva it's kinda up to you to disprove anything.
 
"reacting in peril" as you state it is so incredibly vague it could mean anything.

I've presented reasonable doubt as to why this requires too many assumptions and logical fallacies to prove, take it as you will.
 
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