Minamoto no Yorimitsu vs Twenty-Fifth Baam (Legendary Monsters Exterminator hunt yet another Legendary Monster)

[Loyd]

think i'll keep my vote on baam for now

Spoiler

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The image didn't work in my place

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Knowing nothing of TOG and just Reading the profile page i feel like im overestimating baam, whats his in character move against a melee with several amps?
Does he start with danmaku and turn raikou into a cactus or not?

Against physically superior beings.

• He starts by creating distance even if attacked in close range, spams shinsu from afar, analyzing and adapting to his enemy pattern of attacks and defense and then immobilization+Durability negation.(as shown against ranker Pan) the best example of all.

• IF forced to CQC, he uses the tryssa blade(against Charlie), his own skill and everything that grants him advantage in CQC such as spamming shinsu while fightning then immobilization+Durability negation (as seen against one of Gado's canine ranker)

Durability negation is literally a ¨shinsu martial art technique equivalent¨ of him. He has used against quite literally almost everyone more than once. and his immobilization is literally listed in his most used techniques. And he uses both of them as a single combo; as much as Goku uses his kamehame Ha.

that she land a attack without Baam reacting (because there are servants with IR more big and servants of this level still land their attacks on them without problem)

IR ¨more big¨? Such as who?(I think i have an idea of who) Aside of his IR, superior senses, such as feeling everything around him in several KM and the others mentioned beforehand; and the fact that he just have to think to become low 6B(which is a transformation used even more than those techiques mentioned before). WHILE mind you, he becomes phsyically aswell since she stays at 6C and his danmaku, reactive evolution which makes him faster and stronger the more this battle last; and what not else he has because lol Bam.

This excludes Bam showcasing against ppl with skill comparable, and how he could avoid an attack of Hoaqin even at less than 10m and perfect avoiding several of his tracking space bending attacks. now sum up everything else and Bam is not getting touched.

the fact that people refer to irregulars has gods and fug did bam one better and made him a god, so by sba he becomes a god in fate standard

Where do you even get your info? The only irregular reffered as God is Zahard because of fanatism and what not. (The only other descriptions of them were by Poe Bidau family members describing the intellect of Gustang and Khel Hellam saying masters of destiny and time, none which were reffering to them as Gods, aside of omnipotent knowledge).

Urek, Phanta, Enryu are not even stated to be gods by inhabitants of the tower despite being similar or outright superior to Zahard. Enryu literally proved the tower that the Admins are not omnipotent and then leaved.

and Bam is not an avatar of a god, he is a god that has two other gods inside of him

Nice headcannon that outright contradicts current canon.

Spoiler: Inner power

Unless line messed up translations to this level
Also the race has to be venerated or an individual being, because none of the beings inside him are venerated anymore.

---

Bam techniques(danmaku, immobilization) and his own skill proves he is pretty safe in CQC, he is a ¨don't get harm¨ opponent against sword(coz they're sharp ;p). And his showcasing at large distances(Long range power null+danmaku spam)means he is pretty safe even at long range. And don't come with the lightning and what not. AS A LOW 7B, he could slowly dissolve Karaka(a low 6B) shinsu, that was when he was several times weaker.

DON'T get me wrong, If she lands an attack like the high 6C/low 6B with all the power amps she supposedly gets because of Bam divinity when he is in base form. He is out, the problem is, getting the hit in the first place, even less when he can become Low 6B by thinking in summoning the thorn which throws that argument off of the equation, even when someone induced him fear his first instinct was using the thorn.

Minamoto no Raikou wins if:

• She oneshots him while he is weaker with amped attacks in CQC

Bam wins if:

• He gets an immobilization+dura negation at CQC
• Shinsu danmaku spams from afar
• low 6B and all of his moves literally onehsot her, her low 6B attack is getting overwhelmed when Bam can spam more than a dozen of low 6B attacks(danmaku, his attack don't get weaker the more they're, they instead get stronger the more they go)

That why I am saying he wins more than not.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The only irregular reffered as God is Zahard because of fanatism and what not

Poe bidau was so referenced that his underlings that are high rankers said they are not fit to even touch his toes or say his name iirc. My point is irregulars are treated as gods.

Anyway you are right the chance Raikou has is noticing bam divinity and using mystery killer upfront

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

To note, Mystery Killer is passive, just because in game is a active skill in lore that isn't the case, the same way that in lore one don't need to active Eternal Arms Mastery, they are passive skills.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Poe bidau was so referenced that his underlings that are high rankers said they are not fit to even touch his toes or say his name iirc. My point is irregulars are treated as gods.

That was already addresses in my argument

The only other descriptions of them were by Poe Bidau family members describing the intellect of Gustang

And that is not the description of treating them as God, it's Gustang descendants describing him(because damn him and his ego), and telling them that they weren't befitting(Cheonhee and co. ands themselves) of naming him, but never using the word god. Now treated is a qualification to god? then Kings must be gods now.

To note, Mystery Killer is passive, just because in game is a active skill in lore that isn't the case, the same way that in lore one don't need to active Eternal Arms Mastery, they are passive skills.

The argument doesn't change, this was all assuming that she oneshot him with the damage amp using high 6C and low 6B. As I understood was ¨she gets damage boost against certain being whom Bam qualifies as, like pokemon type advantage, as so I assumed it to be passive¨

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I was saying that it was passive more to Pain that to others because from how he worded it I thought he had that misunderstanding.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

oh ok

 

[Arceus0x]

Yet again, irregulars are not treated as gods.

Poe bidau Gustang and Zahard are people with most authority in the tower and so they've followers that treat them like gods.

Urek is an irregular, yet most people are just scared of his power and nothing else (dude can't even get a date lmao), Enryu is a servant of the outer god who's probably an axis, Phantaminum is an axis, not to mention people are scared crapless of him and know nothing of him. In fact they treat them as disasters.

Axis are confusing but when it comes to the top axis they are pretty much authors.

When it comes to baam there's barely any people who treat him that way, they mostly just believe he is the one who will free the tower, even though at this point in the story nobody besides like this one girl who continues doing her job actually treats him that way.

Overall: if we use the proposed line of logic then the guy who has a creepy stalker who built a shrine for him is more of a god than baam

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Enryu is a servant of the outer god who's probably an axis

I doubt he is an axis. if you reffer to the outer god then it's unkown and vague until now,maybe he is above or below but everything is theory until now

and Irregulars are the opposite to gods, excluding FH and zahard irregulars are a symbol of terror and fear, to the point they gained bad reputation coz of phanta and enryu

 

[Mageman460]

Mystery Killer doesn't just grant anti divine properties though, it's anti Mystery properties. Which Bam and Administrators definitely have an abundant amount of Mystery. So regardless of whether Bam is treated as having Divinity, Raikou still gets the Amp from the skill.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Mystery Killer doesn't just grant anti divine properties though, it's anti Mystery properties. Which Bam and Administrators definitely have an abundant amount of Mystery. So regardless of whether Bam is treated as having Divinity, Raikou still gets the Amp from the skill.

Yes, I was beginning to thinking if there were a misunderstanding about that part and they thought that if Baam wasn't divine then there wouldn't be amp, though with more mystery the amp is greater if I'm not wrong, like Nobu, reason to why I think the talk about divinity lasted so long.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

he copied everything and mastered it.
there is no perfect/more complete style as far as we know, if that's what you mean, more like, this is master lvl and it gets even better from there. not even prime white(Mr.hundreds of slashes) is the peak of arie swordmanship, Arie Hon is

Ah I thought you said something about Baam not copying it fully.

Like, he couldn't do the full hundred slashes thing

 

[Creaturemaster971]

But that aside I appear to have missed a lot

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!

Also, @John985 @Regidian @Mageman460 you guys still want to debating and maybe voting?

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Like, he couldn't do the full hundred slashes thing

to be fair, he hasn't touched a sword ever since.(Tryssa blade is not similar ig)

Like, he wasn't even a swordsman he just built like that

 

[Rez]

A+
and Bam is not an avatar of a god, he is a god that has two other gods inside of him. so yes there you go tell me which rank will a servant that is a god that encompasses two other god be?

Sitonai is mixture of 3 goddess and only has b in divinity

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Sitonai is mixture of 3 goddess and only has b in divinity

I think the case for Sitonai (and the other AE as well) are a bit odd

 

[Mageman460]

Whether or not Baam has Divinity isn't really important to the argument. Baam has Mystery and that's what matters for the skill. Questions, is the Matter Immoblization thought based? How long does it last? Will it effect a servant? What stops Raikou from just Spirit Forming out of it?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Questions, is the Matter Immoblization thought based? How long does it last? Will it effect a servant? What stops Raikou from just Spirit Forming out of it?

• From what I remember no.
• Until he want?
• Maybe? Resistance aside because servants are something weird could be possible that don't affect them.
• Nothing.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Even in spirit form she can't fight in that state, but for escaping? That's gonna be handy

 

[Arceus0x]

Not thought based but instant (can do it before minamoto approaches him)

Without resistance it would fully stop her

 

[Mageman460]

I'd say Raikou high difficulty then. While Baam can immobilize her potentially, Raikou can escape it with a thought. She has the vast AP advantage and if he turns it into a range fight, Raikou will use her Noble Phantasm to one shot.

 

[Arceus0x]

And you still forget that she only has advantage via mystery killer, not actual Ap. She needs to first get to baam and hit him to win but Baam has like 10 ways to evade it not to mention the moment she escapes immobilization he can just take flight and spam enough shinsoo for raikou to fail to evade

 

[Mageman460]

A) She still has the AP via Mystery Killer and actual AP.
B) Mystery Killer is passive. So it is a part of her AP. And yes Baam does qualify as having Mystery.
C) She also has the amps from Mana Burst and her Noble Phantasm.
D) She has ranged options, such as her Noble Phantasm which is a Low 6-B attack.

 

[Arceus0x]

Wait would it scale to her defenses?

 

[Mageman460]

Mana Burst buffs her defense, but Mystery Killer does not I believe.

 

[Mageman460]

Oh, Noble Phantasm also doesn't scale to Durability

 

[Arceus0x]

Then Baam just evades. Baam, before going through years of training and then some and then becoming the baam we are using right now, was able to evade dozens upon dozens of invinsible weapons on sheer instinct to a point where he felt like he saw them clearly, and rn he has even better sensitivity and energy sensitivity.

Unless the attacks you mentioned are some unavoidable multi kilometrical energy beams, i don't see what stops baam from flying up ajd and just moving out of the way while spamming unholy amounts of shinsoo from all directions.

 

[Mageman460]

Isn't it more in character for him to try to tank attacks so he can learn them though?

 

[Arceus0x]

He does that only when he needs to learn. When he's willing to kill (like by SBA) he would go for serious techniques, not completely all out but he wouldn't let people hit him without reason

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Isn't it more in character for him to try to tank attacks so he can learn them though?

He doesn't tank, why would Bam tank?

A) She still has the AP via Mystery Killer and actual AP.
B) Mystery Killer is passive. So it is a part of her AP. And yes Baam does qualify as having Mystery.
C) She also has the amps from Mana Burst and her Noble Phantasm.
D) She has ranged options, such as her Noble Phantasm which is a Low 6-B attack.

Most of this was already addressed, Bam isn't getting touched, he will inmobilize in any case of CQC danger, she becomes intag? Bam takes flight and bye bye from there, Bam Reactive Evolution increase his speed, strenght and durability so he has those advantage too, anlyzing her attack and defense pattern. means that every second that passes it's more likely for her to lose.

She use the NP? Bam sense the Noble Phantasm and GG
Bam thinks and becomes low 6B in body and attack, her noble phantasm is getting lol nope by more than a dozen of low 6B attacks, that only get stronger the more they go.

---

She either gets dura neg and immobilization in CQC and gg(or gets an unlikely lucky shot which makes her win against someone that spams danmaku in close range, immobilization and is comparable superior to her in skill in CQC).

or

She decides to intag to save herself from immobilization+dura neg and proceed to get danmaku'd from afar.

 

[Mageman460]

Wait Low 6-B Bam is being used? Then it's a stomp isn't it?

I addressed why I thought Baam would tank, and that was answered already.

Immobilize leads to Spirit Form, won't get his dura neg off.

It will take a while for the Reactive Evolution to put him on her level AP wise.

Bam would have to dodge 4 attacks that are much higher than her normal AP. With a final attack that's Low 6-B. It's not just one attack he has to dodge, any one hits and that should be gg.

How often does Baam's Dura Neg actually one shot someone?

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Wait Low 6-B Bam is being used? Then it's a stomp isn't it?

the whole key is used

I addressed why I thought Baam would tank, and that was answered already.

Immobilize leads to Spirit Form, won't get his dura neg off.

which leads to flight

It will take a while for the Reactive Evolution to put him on her level AP wise.

not really, thorn override that gap because most of her attacks are not selled excludin NP which low 6B danmaku says no. His speed will get superior 2

Bam would have to dodge 4 attacks that are much higher than her normal AP. With a final attack that's Low 6-B. It's not just one attack he has to dodge, any one hits and that should be gg.

yes this seems pretty inferior and pretty easy to dodge, not even kidding, this was addressed before too.

How often does Baam's Dura Neg actually one shot someone?

You didn't read my argument did you? and one shot in tog? aside that everyone in TOG is different to the point that internal attacks aren't that great against them. shinsu resistance(resistance to energy) exists too. So far he oneshot a ranker (6C) and heavily injured another ranker, as well as making Yama feel his attack while asleep.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I just realized Baam have a Low 6-B durability with 1st thorn, should i restrict it?

 

[Mageman460]

Again, if this is Baam with his Low 6-B stats then this is a stomp. If it's using the Low 6-B part of his key instead of his 6-C portion is what I mean. So is this 6-C Baam or Low 6-B Baam. He amps, so does she.

It isn't inferior, it's 4 attacks that each are one shot worthy to a servant. And then it's a large Low 6-B attack.

I did read your argument, which is why I asked if the dura neg attack one shots, if it doesn't then Raikou goes for a counter attack after getting hit. Sorry it's been a while since I read ToG.

 

[Mageman460]

I just realized Baam have a Low 6-B durability with 1st thorn, should i restrict it?

He's either 6-C or Low 6-B from what I recall. So you don't have to restrict it, but if he has access to Low 6-B stats then it's a stomp, so just say that it's 6-C stats I think that works? Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

He's either 6-C or Low 6-B from what I recall. So you don't have to restrict it, but if he has access to Low 6-B stats then it's a stomp, so just say that it's 6-C stats I think that works? Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong.

I restricted the 1st thorn, now this match isn't a stomp

 

[ImNot4nUser]

bruh