Minamoto no Yorimitsu vs Twenty-Fifth Baam (Legendary Monsters Exterminator hunt yet another Legendary Monster)

[Expectro2000xxx]

When did Raikou do the yoyo thing? Mastering weapons instantly is more of Lancelot's thing than Raikou's so I'd be surprised if she could do that, though I don't doubt it.

Her summer version fight mainly with a yoyo that she just picked because she though it was something popular nowadays (she thought the same about the sailor uniform and that's why she also use it). Raikou and Lancelot are the only two character with Eternal Arms Mastery at Rank A+ so they skill is even.

Musashi never fought peak Hozoin, which was specifically stated.
We know that he's slightly above Okada Izou, roughly equal to Li Shuwen, somewhat inferior to Scathach, and far below Munenori Yagyu. All of which also apply to Raikou, so you can't really argue that Raikou is solidly above Hozoin.

No? As far I remember she only lamented to battle against Hozoin because of the situation and that the original Hozoin was beautiful, and if you say that he was nerfed in skill at the moment of killing him then the same argument can be said of Raikou because she was also under the curse and she literally wanted to be killed so the children could be free, the point still stand that because of the fight against Raikou Musashi reached the void.

They all outskill Red Hare though, which is already insane.

I forgot about that dude lol.

this is certainly the nice part, the problem is again, Bam IR/senses saying no, something is off, use the thorn. And from there it's pretty much over, it's not like Bam is a tank either his main tactic is engaging in long range fight to analyze his opponents fightning style and afapt to his patterns of attacks, he will be immobilizing and creating distance seeing how close they are. And im sure af that she can't don anything to RFC.

Lancelot can land his attacks against characters like Mordred with her Instincts Rank B that let her dodge a complete surprise attack from a dude that see the future and Artoria with Instincts Rank A that can dodge the Tsubame Gaeshi of Kojiro. And it's good wanting to take distance, but when she can emit a burst of lightnnig with a AP a lot above what he can do and resist in base well, he would end half dead at best to him. What's RFC?

Not like that oneshots either. their difference is of 1.7 even if it got stronger that's far from x7(and because of energy resistance too : p)

Currently servants with Rank D strength are rated as 26.6 GT, someone with Rank A is a lot above that and with just Mystery killer she is even above other Rank A strength as long they are mystical, Mana Burst is another big buff to add at that, the difference is a lot more than 1.7

I still see no answer in Bam imobilizing her via reverse flow control and then filling her interiors via piercing technique. 7-7

Currently servants don't resist immobilization hope Crim change that, so the options are Magic Resistance though Baam should bypass her resistance, and enter Spirit Form to become intangibily, after that she can close the distance, return to normal and then let a surprise attack.

It's late so I need to sleep, so I'm gonna contest when I wake up.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Arceus0x]

baamp*

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Which is doesn't matter, she can just snipe him by using her bow or Urabe bow

Woah, the dude who avoided something that I cited above, while having a less mobile version of his current flight is going to get sniped.
Not only that but that gets long range power nulled.

Lancelot can land his attacks against characters like Mordred with her Instincts Rank B that let her dodge a complete surprise attack from a dude that see the future and Artoria with Instincts Rank A that can dodge the Tsubame Gaeshi of Kojiro.

Cool and neato, but what does the fact that he sees the future has to do with anything?

Again this doesn't seem comparable either, evading a future sight dude is again, relying on how skilled the dudes are, you can't scale instinct as far as I know either, against avoiding totally soundless and invisible surprise attacks you didn't even knew about or avoiding dozens of invisible weapons flying from all directions and sensing them to avoid them?

But as always relying in skill scaling, which is fair if a verse does it like that ig.

outside of instinct scaling:
By that logic I can say that Bam avoided several of Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL

And Bam in recents chapters predicted an actual Prime White(who was containing ofc) slashes. Which is way superior than that, he used that to close the speed gap between them. Mind you, those are visually 7 slashes in a single attack.

Spoiler: OFC not added and it is an unnoficial translation(which means it's better and more accurate)

No but for real, Tsubame gaeshi is a low level Arie member level skill, it would be seem as dissapointment. Someone able of that in canon is seen as that(Inieta).

And it's good wanting to take distance, but when she can emit a burst of lightnnig with a AP a lot above what he can do and resist in base well, he would end half dead at best to him. What's RFC?

If her move needs her to move then it's going to be stopped by RFC, which means Reverse Flow Control.
Even if they resisted TOG scaling of resistance to it is ridiculous.
Because Shinsu resistance=resistance to it.

Bam can stop rankers who has reached the totality of all 134 known floors, with upper floors having higher concentration, at floor 20 it was beyond what a person with no shinsu resistance could receive, inducing great amount of pain and being untolerable, in even higher concentrations even some rankers can be hindered by shinsu concentrations and Bam can outright stop them in their tracks and has done so with rankers.

Not like he can't stop the attack themselves.

Currently servants don't resist immobilization hope Crim change that, so the options are Magic Resistance though Baam should bypass her resistance, and enter Spirit Form to become intangibily, after that she can close the distance, return to normal and then let a surprise attack.

Not like that would matter. Their scaling chain is better. And nop, this ain't magic either, and a surprise attack won't work as explained before, How can she surprise attack someone who literally instinctive reacted his way out of a totally soundless and invisible surprise attack of someone he had no previous idea(he thought he cleared all enemies)existed. Not only that, he would fly and if she wants to attack from long range? Shinwonryu got him covered


Tho intangibility do seems nice if she has to save herself.
Sincerely, Bam using the thorn+RFC+Piercing techique is the most likely outcome.

Bam holds most advantages too:

• While lower AP at the beginning he has a way superior one in thorn which is a move he totally uses a lot in character when he is against a stronger character.
• RFC which she has no answer to.
• Piercing technique
• Flight(mobilization advantage)
• Power null for nullifying long range attacks
• Reactive evolution helping him out
• and superior skill B)

 

[John985]

Even though its called Magic Resistance, it doesnt mean it can only resist magic. Supernatural or Pyschic are resisted by those who have the Magic Resistance.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Even though its called Magic Resistance, it doesnt mean it can only resist magic. Supernatural or Pyschic are resisted by those who have the Magic Resistance.

It still is neither of those
except supernatural which is too vague

 

[John985]

Even then, as long as its not "Natural", it will be resisted. Well if its science, it will be negated completely by servants Invulnerability.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Even then, as long as its not "Natural", it will be resisted. Well if its science, it will be negated completely by servants Invulnerability.

nice to know, tho it still gets bypassed anyways

I still vote Bam for my own reasons, with more reasons now

 

[Regidian]

Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL


What you mention here is like not comparable to what do tsubame gaeshk except if now you tell me that hoaqin can make atk that transcends speed,space,time,feint and dexterity....


The point of tsubame gaeshi is like not only the three slash (and in shimosa he do infinity of them in same time)

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL


What you mention here is like not comparable to what do tsubame gaeshk except if now you tell me that hoaqin can make atk that transcends speed,space,time,feint and dexterity....


The point of tsubame gaeshi is like not only the three slash (and in shimosa he do infinity of them in same time)

I mean, im talking of the effect, as addressing the event of someone avoiding specially the three slashes at the same time of tsubame gaeshi by instinct.
Not referring to the entirety of it, since pseudo skill like that is very much unquantificable.

 

[Regidian]

I mean, im talking of the effect, as addressing the event of someone avoiding specially the three slashes at the same time of tsubame gaeshi by instinct.
Not referring to the entirety of it, since pseudo skill like that is very much unquantificable.

Except the rest is part of it too and the three slash is like not even the full version like i tell. The full one is the infinity version which he make an infinity slash to counter the infinite possibilities.

Anyways baam have still more the advantage here. Because of his danmaku and the immobilisation

Even tho i'm not 100% sure that the immobilisation will work as the body of servant are just mana. And even with that if she find she can't escape she can. Just dematerialise and rematerialise after.


It would have been better to use the shimousa version here.

Her regen + presence conceal would have help here

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The second key? I mean from the Vergil vs Raikou thread she's likely would have auhority because her divine awakening (which me and Knight refused to acknowledge it since it just a headcanon)

 

[Regidian]

The second key? I mean from the Vergil vs Raikou thread she's likely would have auhority because her divine awakening (which me and Knight refused to acknowledge it since it just a headcanon)

The rider key of shimousa, i don't want to talk about her authority thing as she never used it for now even tho lb5.5 mention it

But i talk about the regen of swordmaster and they passive invisibility that it's on the level of presence concealment.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Cool and neato, but what does the fact that he sees the future has to do with anything?

Again this doesn't seem comparable either, evading a future sight dude is again, relying on how skilled the dudes are, you can't scale instinct as far as I know either, against avoiding totally soundless and invisible surprise attacks you didn't even knew about or avoiding dozens of invisible weapons flying from all directions and sensing them to avoid them?

Because an attack done by one of the greatest archers in history, attack made by someone that see the future and that obviously want to kill his opponent it's a lot impressive, the attack was even done when she was figthing against another servant. And the instinct of Artoria it's great to the point of dodge Tsubame Gaeshi and find a opening against the skilled crazy guy Kojiro who's skill surpass space and time, who achied the level of a True Magic with just skill. This things are more impressive than dodge a unknow attack or invincible attacks, and someone at the level of Lancelot land attacks against them.

By that logic I can say that Bam avoided several of Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL

And Bam in recents chapters predicted an actual Prime White(who was containing ofc) slashes. Which is way superior than that, he used that to close the speed gap between them. Mind you, those are visually 7 slashes in a single attack.

No but for real, Tsubame gaeshi is a low level Arie member level skill, it would be seem as dissapointment. Someone able of that in canon is seen as that(Inieta).

Until the day in which the Arie style give infinite speed by pure skill alone then no, they aren't even near the level of Kojiro or Tsubame Gaeshi.

If her move needs her to move then it's going to be stopped by RFC

Lightnnings burst don't need that she move and make clones at distance also don't need that she move.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Does Baam had any answer to the regen of swordmaster and the passive invisibility? If not then i'm gonna stick with the base form

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Even tho i'm not 100% sure that the immobilisation will work as the body of servant are just mana. And even with that if she find she can't escape she can. Just dematerialise and rematerialise after.

mana as in energy?

 

[Regidian]

Does Baam had any answer to the regen of swordmaster and the passive invisibility? If not then i'm gonna stick with the base form

Imnotauser talk about bim being able to evade invisuble atk so he should be able to fight raikou. For the regen don't know

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Does Baam had any answer to the regen of swordmaster and the passive invisibility? If not then i'm gonna stick with the base form

yes, i had repeasted several times, Baam can sense and later learned to see invisible things

he can vaporize her with low 6B stardust ig

 

[Regidian]

mana as in energy?

Yeah energy but don't think it should work like here, mana as an energy is lower in size than a quantum particule field as a servant composed of mana is that.

 

[Regidian]

yes, i had repeasted several times, Baam can sense and later learned to see invisible things

he can vaporize her with low 6B stardust ig

If you talk about ap vaporisation then it will not work. She can just counter it with her own low 6-B atk

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

he can vaporize her with low 6B stardust ig

Same for her with the final blow of Ox King.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well, i'm just gonna stick with the base form since it has been a long debate

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also i'll be go to sleep after i'm done making DBD discussion thread, i would check this thread later after i wake up

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Also i'll be go to sleep after i'm done making DBD discussion thread, i would check this thread later after i wake up

Hope that you dream with getting SSR.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Wait, who said Baam can use Stardust with the Red Thryssa Transformations? Currently, he can only use this with the True Self Mode activated, which is not the case here

 

[WHYNAUT]

Why does Infinity Kojiro keep being mentioned? Raikou doesn't scale to him in any way whatsoever.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

My last message before going to sleep: @ImNot4nUser explain yourself about Stardust

 

[Regidian]

Why does Infinity Kojiro keep being mentioned? Raikou doesn't scale to him in any way whatsoever.

Because somone mention that a perso was more skilled than tsubame gaeshi

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yes, White is more skilled than Tsubami Gaeshi. They were obviously referring to the three blades version, not the infinity one.

 

[Regidian]

Yes, White is more skilled than Tsubami Gaeshi. They were obviously referring to the three blades version, not the infinity one.

Except it is not even the three blade verison have still the transcend dexterity/feint etc.

Not because it can do three slash at that have different directions and bend space that it's better than an atk that is litteraly impossible to evade

 

[WHYNAUT]

"Transcended" is a buzzword. It transcends those because typical feints and feats of dexterity you'd find in a swordfight obviously won't help much against a guy who can "transcend" space and time to perform three slashes at the same time.

With zero feats of it actually being impossible to evade. Besides literally just not getting in the range of the technique is a good way of avoiding it.

White can launch hundreds of slashes at the same with far more range, from more angles, that can't be blocked, with abstract trajectories and that chase after you.

Tsubami Gaeshi gets hyped up a lot more, but when put into practice it's pretty clear which one is superior.

Anyway I'll be leaving it at that, since neither Prime White nor Kojiro are relevant to this match. It would derail the thread too much otherwise.


As for the thread. I'll vote Bam FRA (except the point about him copying arie swordsmanship).

 

[Regidian]

It's litteraly use the second magic to do those transcend you call a buzzword bruh. So not just a transcend because it's not easy for normal swordman to do that but because the second magic make is skill transcending these thing

Tell it's a buzzword it's tell that second magic do nothing. Which is litteraly false.


Can you tell le how can you have a feat of being impossible to be evade except having nobody being able to evade it?

Saber only evade a break tsubame that was only able to do two slash.



Being not on the range of the atk what you mean? He like not do the atk if you not in the range of the atk.

It's like tellling that if a guy have a atk that have the concepts of being unavoidable in the range of 3 meter is a buzzword because at 4 meter it's avoidable .


And the can't be blocked is a buzzword if we follow your thing as it's like show being to be block.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Second magic has nothing to do with feints and dexterity. So yes it's a buzzword.

Asking questions is no use when I've already stated I won't debate it extensively in this thread. In the end, even if all your claims were true, Tsubami Gaeshi only covers a small range, White has no such drawbacks.

No because it actually has feats (yes visual ones, not someone just going "wow his attacks can't be blocked!") to back it up on top of it being explained as a literal law of the tower both in the story and in WoG.

 

[Regidian]

Second magic has nothing to do with feints and dexterity. So yes it's a buzzword.

Asking questions is no use when I've already stated I won't debate it extensively in this thread. In the end, even if all your claims were true, Tsubami Gaeshi only covers a small range, White has no such drawbacks.

No because it actually has feats (yes visual ones, not someone just going "wow his attacks can't be blocked!") to back it up on top of it being explained as a literal law of the tower both in the story and in WoG.

It has something to do with it litteraly tell in the skill description of the material and kn the vn. Not like we even know whay can fully do second magic

"This is the “Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon—Kischua Zelretch” that transcends speed, dexterity, feint and many other elements." Fate/complete material III: World Material - The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Assassin, p.034-035


Having better range don't mean better skill, he just use energy for the better range.

And tsubame have material explication, vn explication of the skill and litteral feat too.

I ask thing but your reasoning have poor reason to discard it.


And contrary to your feat, tsubame gaeshi fully realised never got evaded which can't be tell to your can't be blocked but somone block it.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I was talking about second magic's own functions, which are related to space and time, not to feints and dexterity. It's very clear that what is meant is that feints and dexterity are not of much use in front of techniques that manipulate freaking space and time. Hence "trancends". "Transcend" isn't some end-all-be-all word that has to be taken at face value. It's not like Kojiro exceeds the very concepts of feints and dexterity.

Realized I responded yet again. Sorry the sucking up to the word 'transcend' was just too much. I'm only responding to messages that are actually relevant to this match from now on.

 

[Regidian]

I was talking about second magic's own functions, which are related to space and time, not to feints and dexterity. It's very clear that what is meant is that feints and dexterity are not of much use in front of techniques that manipulate freaking space and time. Hence "trancends". "Transcend" isn't some end-all-be-all word that has to be taken at face value. It's not like Kojiro exceeds the very concepts of feints and dexterity.

Realized I responded yet again. Sorry the sucking up to the word 'transcend' was just too much. I'm only responding to messages that are actually relevant to this match from now on.

Second magic are not only related to space and time. But anyway even whitout that feint and dexterity are related to space and time so i still don't see the problem.


Except not really skill that transcend speed and time exist in multiple number in fate we even have some sword skill with infinite range. Doesn't change that tsubame gaeshi is the only with that mention.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Yeah energy but don't think it should work like here, mana as an energy is lower in size than a quantum particule field as a servant composed of mana is that.

well... It doesn't work at sub quantum, only at quantum lvl since that's the lvl shinsu mentions ig

Same for her with the final blow of Ox King.

Not really, he at difference of her, gets his durability at low 6B and he is in no way close to a oneshot area, unlike her.

If you talk about ap vaporisation then it will not work. She can just counter it with her own low 6-B atk

Fair but does she need to y'know, move to generate the attack, because if so, Bam stop her in her tracks.(unless she is mana and what not at the time she does it)

My last message before going to sleep: @ImNot4nUser explain yourself about Stardust

Talked a lot of low 6B that confused keys lol

it's better than an atk that is litteraly impossible to evade

Wait hold on.(not only White swordmanship also has law manip that does that too, excluding those that resist his law manip, Bam being included because lol irregular)

And the instinct of Artoria it's great to the point of dodge Tsubame Gaeshi and find a opening against the skilled crazy guy Kojiro who's skill surpass space and time

This two statements are totally different, but of course, shouldn't be surprised of Nasu smh.
Anyways, I sincerely see Bam taking it more times than not against this key.

 

[Regidian]

well... It doesn't work at sub quantum, only at quantum lvl since that's the lvl shinsu mentions ig

Not really, he at difference of her, gets his durability at low 6B and he is in no way close to a oneshot area, unlike her.

Fair but does she need to y'know, move to generate the attack, because if so, Bam stop her in her tracks.(unless she is mana and what not at the time she does it)

Talked a lot of low 6B that confused keys lol

Wait hold on.(not only White swordmanship also has law manip that does that too, excluding those that resist his law manip, Bam being included because lol irregular)

This two statements are totally different, but of course, shouldn't be surprised of Nasu smh.
Anyways, I sincerely see Bam taking it more times than not against this key.

Expectro don't have the thing. Artoria evade a two slash tsubame gaeshi, it was still hard since only a minisucly way to evade it but it's possible for the two slash

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yeah energy but don't think it should work like here, mana as an energy is lower in size than a quantum particule field as a servant composed of mana is that.

Oh yeah and this is completely nonsensical. That's like saying molecular matter manipulation shouldn't work on humans because we're made up of quantum particles. Besides Servants don't have a resistance to matter manipulation listed, so it wouldn't be applicable in this match.

 

[Regidian]

Oh yeah and this is completely nonsensical. That's like saying molecular matter manipulation shouldn't work on humans because we're made up of quantum particles. Besides Servants don't have a resistance to matter manipulation listed, so it wouldn't be applicable in this match.

We already tell like 10 time in multiple thread that servant are getting a crt in not some long time. So well.


And why it should be nonsensical? Servant are not made of matter they are made of mana. So you comparaison is weird as human are made of matter, of atom etc