Minamoto no Yorimitsu vs Twenty-Fifth Baam (Legendary Monsters Exterminator hunt yet another Legendary Monster)

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So i'll make a two Raikou matches in-row because f*** it, tho i admit why make two matches in row is because i'm curious about the next one (spoiler: it'a about Raikou vs Obito). Anyway...

The Legendary Heian-Kyo Youkai/Monsters Exterminator, now in modern era stumbled upon an unknown man who is classified as Irregular and thus feared as a monster who bring the calamity, the Daughter of Indra reminded with the youkai/monsters that bring the calamities who she has been slayed in the past, with that she challenged the Irregular Monsters in a fight, to determine that he would not bring the calamity upon the land, will she win and successfully exterminating another calamity monster, or will monster prevail and killing Minamoto no Yorimitsu?

Kill or be Killed, Hero or Monster, It doesn't Matter
-
Carnage Duel
-
Let's Dance!
(Yeah, i'm trying using the Arcys round start meme here )

---

• Base Yorimitsu/Raikou and Red Taryssa Transformation Baam are used
• 1st Thorn are restricted
• Speed are equalized
• Both in character
• Ox-King Storm Call are unrestricted
• Place located in Kansai International Airport
• Starting Range: 10 Meter
• Win via anything!!!
• The Irregular, Calamity Monster: 7 (Arceus, WHYNAUT, Users, Lyod, Milly, Enryu, Sonic)
• The Legendary Heian Greatest Monster Exterminator: 3 (Expectro, Mageman, Pain)
• Inconclusive: 0

---

VS

​

 

[Arceus0x]

idk whether he can kill her but he sure as heck can incap.
What is the AP difference?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

idk whether he can kill her but he sure as heck can incap.
What is the AP difference?

Type 9 immortality? It's a non-combat applicable

Raikou scaled from 26.6 Gigaton, and by the revision her NP are in Low 6-B level

 

[Arceus0x]

NP?

 

[Arceus0x]

Ah noble phantasm

 

[Arceus0x]

anyways i was talking bout regen.

 

[Arceus0x]

but i think Baam has more than enough to knock her out. Fear, soul manip and invisibility won't do squat against baam so i legit see no wincons.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

anyways i was talking bout regen.

Mid-Low regen are not that hard to be dealed with, no?

 

[Arceus0x]

re-read it

 

[Arceus0x]

ah you're talking about bam

 

[Arceus0x]

doesn't matter. All he needs is to spam shinsoo and minamoto won't do squat with her 26gt ap

 

[Arceus0x]

unless i misunderstood sth

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Can you just posting one comment instead spamming? Just asking

 

[Arceus0x]

i say everything i want most of time, i just don't understand what you mean sometimes and post before understanding.

Anyways.
what is minamoto's durability?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You can just double checked it before commenting so it'll avoid the possible unintended "spam" above

As for the durability i think it's the same as her AP i believe, oh and forgot about soul hax thing, it was combat applicable and has a dimensional properties on it

As for AP gap, she can just amplified her AP with Mana Burst and Mystery Killer (and since Shinsoo by nature fall to nasuverse standard as mystery, same with Baam as Irregular)

 

[Arceus0x]

baam still has dura negation + immobilization combo and this still doesn't stop him from inifnite spamming minamoto with shinsoo

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Yeah, that's kind of right, Baam always prefers to fight from afar and spam his ranged attacks (that's pretty much what he does in 90% of the webtoon in his fights so far, and now Shinsoo Loop lets him to spam ranged attacks even more than his Season 2 self) and if he's forced into CQC, he can use the Fast Skip + Piercing Technique combo to finish her off, that's what he currently does most when he went to hand-to-hand combat

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I'm inclined to think Raikou handily outskills, but from the looks of things, not sure how much good that'll do her

 

[Creaturemaster971]

How feasible is it to dodge Baam's ranged attacks and close the distance?

 

[Arceus0x]

1. yes it isn't useful here
2. baam can literally copy complex techniques including a space bending swordstyle after seeing it once, idk if mina's skill is useful here
3. as feasible as dodging somewhat large rain whilst you're a human

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yeah those hardcounter her swordsmanship pretty well.

 

[Arceus0x]

can't slash it if it's everywhere.
I believe it is a stomp

 

[ImNot4nUser]

I'm inclined to think Raikou handily outskills, but from the looks of things, not sure how much good that'll do her

Someone outskilling Bam? Seems hard to believe.
What feats do she have because Bam has this:

Spoiler: Baam skill copypasta

Also to set the record on Bam skill:

Bam is able to copy and instantly master moves after seeing them once, he can join/mix several hundreds of skill and join them to his style.

Could copy an entire martial style an style that by WoG normal ppl wont be able to use as good as Arie's family member, yet Bam could go toe with toe with one of the most skilled known member of the Arie family.

We're starting to get more information on the Arie Family in the main story.
Arie Swordsmanship is not just of Arie Family.
Normal people can learn the forms of the technique. They're good with swords for a reason.
It's just that they can't use it as a Arie member can;;

That style could bend space,and follow abstract lines of attack he could copy the entire style after he fought it only 3 times MIND YOU, only the third time he got a sword, he probably copied it the first time as all canon says that he copy and master at simple sight.
Before there was an statement that no one could copy the style but that was before the previous Word of God so it likely got retconned:

The reason Baam could use Hoaqin's skills
was because the last clone is Albelda (Hoaqin's younger sibling) + the spirits.
Since Albelda has the blood of the Arie, the power of the Arie Family could be used ^^.
The old Baam, no matter how well Baam tries to copy it, can't use the Arie-style swordsmanship.

Martial and Instinctive Senses:
He can adapt to his enemy pattern attack, has a danger sense and instinctive reaction from natural instinct(even from totally soundless and invisible attacks) not super anything just instinct.

His senses are so good that he can sense several invisible attacks coming from different directions, UNTIL he straigforwardly learnt to SEE the invisible attacks by seeing it's flow on shinsu(air).

• Can copy entire styles/and skill and master them instantly.
• Can mix hundreds of skills and add them to his own style.
• Can adapt to his enemy attack pattern and outgrow them.
• Instinctive Reaction and Danger sense from Natural prowress.
• His senses which are innate of him are very good.

Seems hard to believe

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I invited some of Nasuverse members here, but they're taking too long to come

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Geez I didn't know Baam was that good

if I ever manage to fix the skill debates and make them fun again, please drop by

To be fair, Okada Izou could also copy and master entire esoteric fighting styles at a glance, including those that also fucked with space and were utilized by once-in-an-era geniuses with flawless battle records even against people as skilled as Servants, and Raikou is considered to be more skilled than he is.
Okada fought Li Shuwen, and the latter was skilled enough that even he couldn't copy his moves properly, with him being called "a talented learner, but still just a learner". And Raikou is considered roughly equivalent to Li Shuwen in terms of skill, albeit more specialized towards group battles rather than one-on-one duels.

 

[Mageman460]

Baam can't use Shinsoo as he's in the real world, so mom gives him head pats and ara aras.

Hmmm, this is really tough tbh. Baam opens with Danmaku most likely which won't be enough to take down Raikou. Seeing this he'll go for his more powerful stuff and eventually his Dura Neging stuff. Unfortunately, I'd consider Irregulars to be highly mysterious beings, so when Baam gets close, Raikou takes a single hit and then goes for a well placed sword strike with Mystery Killer and Mana Burst buffs and cripples Baam. The fight is significantly easier from there.

Raikou also easily takes skill. She's insanely skilled, even as a berserker. Her Rider form in Shimosa blocked Fate Hax attacks from Musashi. I believe her Rider state was also stated to be just as insane as her Berserker state as a note.

Raikou's Mana Burst lets her amp power, speed, and range. Her Bow can potentially match the smaller Shinsoo attacks, but not the larger ones. She should be able to use the bow to blow a whole through the Shinsoo wave if needed by using its true name, but that's kind of an unknown afaik.

If Baam pulls out the First Thorn ... then he wins likely high diff. If not Raikou takes it after a long and hard fight.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

To be fair, Musashi didn't have the really bullshit fatehax yet. At this point she could only shave down possible futures.

Still highly impressive though, so we'll see what he has to say about that in comparison to Baam.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

including those that also fucked with space and were utilized by once-in-an-era geniuses with flawless battle records even against people as skilled as Servants

tbf, in TOG this style he copied is characteristic of an entire family(which means something in the thousands) the most experts(White, whom he doesn't scale at all, he only bested his imperfect not fully prime version).
Can casually generate Danmaku of hundreds of slashes in a single swing that bends space to hit you from different directions and because of law manip they will alway hit and can't be blocked.(unless u have something like teleport, time, or esoteric thingys to avoid the slashes), he could potentially gain analytical precog too, but we need to wait till the official translations get out : p

Seeing this he'll go for his more powerful stuff and eventually his Dura Neging stuff.

His Dura neg is used in combo with immobilization, that's what he does in character, what can she do against that. he usually uses RFC+Piercing techniques and it's gg from there, it's quite the casual combo too.

Raikou also easily takes skill. She's insanely skilled, even as a berserker. Her Rider form in Shimosa blocked Fate Hax attacks from Musashi. I believe her Rider state was also stated to be just as insane as her Berserker state as a note.

That proves nothing in superiority tho? The comment of CM971 explained more in detail and it didn't seem superior to Bam, he only proved copy skill being similar and a scaling of skill. Bam seems to edge thanks to instincts too(superior senses, IR, Danger sense) and a comparable copy ability if anything. But that's only from what has been told.

Raikou's Mana Burst lets her amp power, speed

Bam reactive evolution does that already and only goes up from there.

Advantages:

• Since they have similar AP, Bam reactive evo means he will get faster, sturdier and stronger the longer he fights meaning that he will have the advantage in these categories and it becomes worse the longer she drags it out.
• Bam IR/senses will say no to the high 6C and low 6B in which he will use the thorn and get to the level of the attack and he can receive it pretty well.
• Immobilization+Dura neg gg as always, even worse if she decides to attack with something above her caliber because she still is physically island level and Bam becomes low 6B and oneshots, even worse with dura neg, bye bye to her inter organs that or she gets totally vaporized via Stardust.
• Bam dominates in CQC thanks to comparable skill+immobilziation.

Anyways, Bam goes in danmaku, see it's getting prolonged and sooner or later decides to use Reverse flow control+Piercing technique, and it's over.
I vote for Bam

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Raikou's Instinctive Reaction should in theory also be absolutely insane, due to upscaling greatly from Lancelot's. Unfortunately she lacks concrete feats for it.

That sword style does sound more intense than what Okada has properly copied. It'd probably take a Sword Saint on the level of Yagyu or end-of-event Musashi to deal with, and they're decently more skilled than Raikou is.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

That sword style does sound more intense than what Okada has properly copied. It'd probably take a Sword Saint on the level of Yagyu or end-of-event Musashi to deal with, and they're decently more skilled than Raikou is.

ofc the style is, but Bam isn't in the level of the one who did that he did copy his style perfectly, he just, can't do that yet, he only bested that dude, when he was imperfect and not in his prime(which also meant he wasn't as skilled) just clarifying ofc.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Ah alright got it.

Do you have scans of what level of skill Baam is at?

Fate is mostly skill scaling so it's gonna be a bitch to figure out how Baam stacks up to the verse overall (though so far he seems to be at least at or above Raikou)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Now I can participate.

Raikou should have a great amount of AP advantage, as someone with strength Rank A she is a lot above the 26.6 Gigatons currently used to base servants and since Mystery Killer is active (because Baam use divine power and his insides aren't normal lol) so the AP gap become greater (Shuten even though also have Rank A strength is overwhelmed by the strength of Raikou), and Mana Burst increase that AP gap again, so I'm pretty sure she one shot base form.

Raikou is crowned by the Throne itself as the most skilled person of her era, skilled to the point of be able to use everything she wield, even if is her first time using said object, at master skill level that surpass actual persons who trained with said thing all their life, she literrally just picked a random yoyo and still can figth against skilled servants. Far above Izou who alredy can copy any technique, probably above Hōzōin Inshun because Musashi needed to perfect her ability to cut karma against her. Suzuka needed to use her second NP to only scratch the cheek of Raikou after a long fight and by this point Suzuka was really tired and beated. Baam it's skilled, yes, but Raikou probably have the edge.

Danmaku is good, but since they are 10 meters apart she can physically close the distance without much problem and with Mana Burst the distance is nonexistent.

 

[Arceus0x]

Wait Baam has the red thryssa which is low 6-B. What ap are we using?

Either way baam goes for immobilization + duraneg gg

Mina won't be able to escape immobilization because it's molecular immobilization that bypasses high level resistance

If this doesn't work nothing stops Baam from immobilizing and orb spamming (danmaku)

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Ah alright got it.

Do you have scans of what level of skill Baam is at?

Fate is mostly skill scaling so it's gonna be a bitch to figure out how Baam stacks up to the verse overall (though so far he seems to be at least at or above Raikou)

I mean he really doesn't have competition or scaling since he is a H2H user and there aren't a lot of those in-verse who are actual martial artist, but he is also good at Swords because, Bam see Bam does ig, he never used one until he created one, and he was comparable to Hoaqin who is above Inieta who are atleast better than unkowns fodders of arie family, all of them are users of the arie swordmanship which can do ¨anything¨ with swords which doesn't mean a lot ig.

This is Arie swordmanship btw:

Spoiler: Arie Swordmanship

Space Bending to attack from all sides as well as no blind spot:

Spoiler: Space bending:

Hundred of slashes with a single swing(Only Prime White scales) :

Spoiler: Bullshit the Swordmanship

The sheer amount of slashes

in a single swing

Laws of the tower:

In regards to White's sword...
Well, like all swords of the Arie Family, there is the matter of it being uncatchable due to unpredictibilty, as well as due to strength.
As I said it literally in the release, it may be a pre-defined Laws of the Tower that exists beyond the Laws of Physics. (say wha?)
The Tower of God in a sense is a world where a game-like system is blended into a real world,
so we can have expressions like that.

Source.

In regards to White’s sword…
Well, like all swords of the Arie Family, there is the matter of it being impossible to parry due to unpredictability,
as well as being too strong to parry.
As per the original intention of the series, it’s probably the same as how the Tower’s Rules are set outside the Laws of Physics. (say wha?)
Tower of God itself, in a sense, is a worldview where a gamified system is merged into their world,
so I think it’s possible for it to be expressed like this.

Source.
The law make so the sword will always hit.(and how to counter)

Like I said last time, Hoaqin’s blade has no blind spots.
Whether from the back for super-close-combat, the sword will ultimately land..
Arie swordsmanship is special like that, and there’s no good techniques against it.
Either overpower them with sheer force, or just attack them before they are ready..
Boro’s special so he can block his swords. Imperfectly, but still…

SIU blogpost.

Raikou is crowned by the Throne itself as the most skilled person of her era, skilled to the point of be able to use everything she wield, even if is her first time using said object, at master skill level that surpass actual persons who trained with said thing all their life,

Woah, like Bam copied an entire swordmanship despite never using a sword before, mastering the entire style and going at par with someone which is in the ¨best¨ in skill as an Arie (non ranker) member can be.

Far above Izou who alredy can copy any technique,

Technique? then that's inferior, Bam copied an entire style, and a technique that took someone hundreds of years to master after seeing it once(or well, experiencing it once).

probably above Hōzōin Inshun because Musashi needed to perfect her ability to cut karma against her. Suzuka needed to use her second NP to only scratch the cheek of Raikou after a long fight and by this point Suzuka was really tired and beated. Baam it's skilled, yes, but Raikou probably have the edge.

this is more skill scaling but okay.

Raikou should have a great amount of AP advantage, as someone with strength Rank A she is a lot above the 26.6 Gigatons currently used to base servants and since Mystery Killer is active (because Baam use divine power and his insides aren't normal lol) so the AP gap become greater (Shuten even though also have Rank A strength is overwhelmed by the strength of Raikou), and Mana Burst increase that AP gap again, so I'm pretty sure she one shot base form.

this is certainly the nice part, the problem is again, Bam IR/senses saying no, something is off, use the thorn. And from there it's pretty much over, it's not like Bam is a tank either his main tactic is engaging in long range fight to analyze his opponents fightning style and afapt to his patterns of attacks, he will be immobilizing and creating distance seeing how close they are. And im sure af that she can't don anything to RFC.

Not like that oneshots either. their difference is of 1.7 even if it got stronger that's far from x7(and because of energy resistance too : p)

This excludes Long range power null of shinwonryu, which light nullifies energy attacks, and could slowly dissolve Karaka shinsu. A low 6B, and it did that when he was low 7B.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also why do you assume he'll just get hit? Ik you don't know but Baam dodged dozens of invisible weapons wielded by a person with a literal millenia of experience on instinct to a point where he felt like he sees them and that is WAY before he went to train with 100s of combat masters, in fact the baam you see and the baam i mentioned have a good 3 training arcs between each other.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also of course one thin we're missing... He can fly

 

[Creaturemaster971]

When did Raikou do the yoyo thing? Mastering weapons instantly is more of Lancelot's thing than Raikou's so I'd be surprised if she could do that, though I don't doubt it.

Okada can copy entire styles yes, but this swordsmanship seems far above Okita's style, which if I recall correctly is the best that Okada can copy. This is just based on hearsay, however, I still need to watch the actual event to confirm.

Musashi never fought peak Hozoin, which was specifically stated.
We know that he's slightly above Okada Izou, roughly equal to Li Shuwen, somewhat inferior to Scathach, and far below Munenori Yagyu. All of which also apply to Raikou, so you can't really argue that Raikou is solidly above Hozoin.

They all outskill Red Hare though, which is already insane.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also of course one thin we're missing... He can fly

Which is doesn't matter, she can just snipe him by using her bow or Urabe bow

As for Red Taryssa thorn, that's why i listed "unrestricted Ox-King Sorm Call" since it would be Low 6-B

 

[ImNot4nUser]

I still see no answer in Bam imobilizing her via reverse flow control and then filling her interiors via piercing technique. 7-7

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

When did Raikou do the yoyo thing? Mastering weapons instantly is more of Lancelot's thing than Raikou's so I'd be surprised if she could do that, though I don't doubt it.

Her summer version fight mainly with a yoyo that she just picked because she though it was something popular nowadays (she thought the same about the sailor uniform and that's why she also use it). Raikou and Lancelot are the only two character with Eternal Arms Mastery at Rank A+ so they skill is even.

Musashi never fought peak Hozoin, which was specifically stated.
We know that he's slightly above Okada Izou, roughly equal to Li Shuwen, somewhat inferior to Scathach, and far below Munenori Yagyu. All of which also apply to Raikou, so you can't really argue that Raikou is solidly above Hozoin.

No? As far I remember she only lamented to battle against Hozoin because of the situation and that the original Hozoin was beautiful, and if you say that he was nerfed in skill at the moment of killing him then the same argument can be said of Raikou because she was also under the curse and she literally wanted to be killed so the children could be free, the point still stand that because of the fight against Raikou Musashi reached the void.

They all outskill Red Hare though, which is already insane.

I forgot about that dude lol.

this is certainly the nice part, the problem is again, Bam IR/senses saying no, something is off, use the thorn. And from there it's pretty much over, it's not like Bam is a tank either his main tactic is engaging in long range fight to analyze his opponents fightning style and afapt to his patterns of attacks, he will be immobilizing and creating distance seeing how close they are. And im sure af that she can't don anything to RFC.

Lancelot can land his attacks against characters like Mordred with her Instincts Rank B that let her dodge a complete surprise attack from a dude that see the future and Artoria with Instincts Rank A that can dodge the Tsubame Gaeshi of Kojiro. And it's good wanting to take distance, but when she can emit a burst of lightnnig with a AP a lot above what he can do and resist in base well, he would end half dead at best to him. What's RFC?

Not like that oneshots either. their difference is of 1.7 even if it got stronger that's far from x7(and because of energy resistance too : p)

Currently servants with Rank D strength are rated as 26.6 GT, someone with Rank A is a lot above that and with just Mystery killer she is even above other Rank A strength as long they are mystical, Mana Burst is another big buff to add at that, the difference is a lot more than 1.7

I still see no answer in Bam imobilizing her via reverse flow control and then filling her interiors via piercing technique. 7-7

Currently servants don't resist immobilization hope Crim change that, so the options are Magic Resistance though Baam should bypass her resistance, and enter Spirit Form to become intangibily, after that she can close the distance, return to normal and then let a surprise attack.

It's late so I need to sleep, so I'm gonna contest when I wake up.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Arceus0x]

baamp*

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Which is doesn't matter, she can just snipe him by using her bow or Urabe bow

Woah, the dude who avoided something that I cited above, while having a less mobile version of his current flight is going to get sniped.
Not only that but that gets long range power nulled.

Lancelot can land his attacks against characters like Mordred with her Instincts Rank B that let her dodge a complete surprise attack from a dude that see the future and Artoria with Instincts Rank A that can dodge the Tsubame Gaeshi of Kojiro.

Cool and neato, but what does the fact that he sees the future has to do with anything?

Again this doesn't seem comparable either, evading a future sight dude is again, relying on how skilled the dudes are, you can't scale instinct as far as I know either, against avoiding totally soundless and invisible surprise attacks you didn't even knew about or avoiding dozens of invisible weapons flying from all directions and sensing them to avoid them?

But as always relying in skill scaling, which is fair if a verse does it like that ig.

outside of instinct scaling:
By that logic I can say that Bam avoided several of Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL

And Bam in recents chapters predicted an actual Prime White(who was containing ofc) slashes. Which is way superior than that, he used that to close the speed gap between them. Mind you, those are visually 7 slashes in a single attack.

Spoiler: OFC not added and it is an unnoficial translation(which means it's better and more accurate)

No but for real, Tsubame gaeshi is a low level Arie member level skill, it would be seem as dissapointment. Someone able of that in canon is seen as that(Inieta).

And it's good wanting to take distance, but when she can emit a burst of lightnnig with a AP a lot above what he can do and resist in base well, he would end half dead at best to him. What's RFC?

If her move needs her to move then it's going to be stopped by RFC, which means Reverse Flow Control.
Even if they resisted TOG scaling of resistance to it is ridiculous.
Because Shinsu resistance=resistance to it.

Bam can stop rankers who has reached the totality of all 134 known floors, with upper floors having higher concentration, at floor 20 it was beyond what a person with no shinsu resistance could receive, inducing great amount of pain and being untolerable, in even higher concentrations even some rankers can be hindered by shinsu concentrations and Bam can outright stop them in their tracks and has done so with rankers.

Not like he can't stop the attack themselves.

Currently servants don't resist immobilization hope Crim change that, so the options are Magic Resistance though Baam should bypass her resistance, and enter Spirit Form to become intangibily, after that she can close the distance, return to normal and then let a surprise attack.

Not like that would matter. Their scaling chain is better. And nop, this ain't magic either, and a surprise attack won't work as explained before, How can she surprise attack someone who literally instinctive reacted his way out of a totally soundless and invisible surprise attack of someone he had no previous idea(he thought he cleared all enemies)existed. Not only that, he would fly and if she wants to attack from long range? Shinwonryu got him covered

Tho intangibility do seems nice if she has to save herself.
Sincerely, Bam using the thorn+RFC+Piercing techique is the most likely outcome.

Bam holds most advantages too:

• While lower AP at the beginning he has a way superior one in thorn which is a move he totally uses a lot in character when he is against a stronger character.
• RFC which she has no answer to.
• Piercing technique
• Flight(mobilization advantage)
• Power null for nullifying long range attacks
• Reactive evolution helping him out
• and superior skill B)

 

[John985]

Even though its called Magic Resistance, it doesnt mean it can only resist magic. Supernatural or Pyschic are resisted by those who have the Magic Resistance.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Even though its called Magic Resistance, it doesnt mean it can only resist magic. Supernatural or Pyschic are resisted by those who have the Magic Resistance.

It still is neither of those
except supernatural which is too vague

 

[John985]

Even then, as long as its not "Natural", it will be resisted. Well if its science, it will be negated completely by servants Invulnerability.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Even then, as long as its not "Natural", it will be resisted. Well if its science, it will be negated completely by servants Invulnerability.

nice to know, tho it still gets bypassed anyways

I still vote Bam for my own reasons, with more reasons now

 

[Regidian]

Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL


What you mention here is like not comparable to what do tsubame gaeshk except if now you tell me that hoaqin can make atk that transcends speed,space,time,feint and dexterity....


The point of tsubame gaeshi is like not only the three slash (and in shimosa he do infinity of them in same time)

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL


What you mention here is like not comparable to what do tsubame gaeshk except if now you tell me that hoaqin can make atk that transcends speed,space,time,feint and dexterity....


The point of tsubame gaeshi is like not only the three slash (and in shimosa he do infinity of them in same time)

I mean, im talking of the effect, as addressing the event of someone avoiding specially the three slashes at the same time of tsubame gaeshi by instinct.
Not referring to the entirety of it, since pseudo skill like that is very much unquantificable.

 

[Regidian]

I mean, im talking of the effect, as addressing the event of someone avoiding specially the three slashes at the same time of tsubame gaeshi by instinct.
Not referring to the entirety of it, since pseudo skill like that is very much unquantificable.

Except the rest is part of it too and the three slash is like not even the full version like i tell. The full one is the infinity version which he make an infinity slash to counter the infinite possibilities.

Anyways baam have still more the advantage here. Because of his danmaku and the immobilisation

Even tho i'm not 100% sure that the immobilisation will work as the body of servant are just mana. And even with that if she find she can't escape she can. Just dematerialise and rematerialise after.


It would have been better to use the shimousa version here.

Her regen + presence conceal would have help here

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The second key? I mean from the Vergil vs Raikou thread she's likely would have auhority because her divine awakening (which me and Knight refused to acknowledge it since it just a headcanon)

 

[Regidian]

The second key? I mean from the Vergil vs Raikou thread she's likely would have auhority because her divine awakening (which me and Knight refused to acknowledge it since it just a headcanon)

The rider key of shimousa, i don't want to talk about her authority thing as she never used it for now even tho lb5.5 mention it

But i talk about the regen of swordmaster and they passive invisibility that it's on the level of presence concealment.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Cool and neato, but what does the fact that he sees the future has to do with anything?

Again this doesn't seem comparable either, evading a future sight dude is again, relying on how skilled the dudes are, you can't scale instinct as far as I know either, against avoiding totally soundless and invisible surprise attacks you didn't even knew about or avoiding dozens of invisible weapons flying from all directions and sensing them to avoid them?

Because an attack done by one of the greatest archers in history, attack made by someone that see the future and that obviously want to kill his opponent it's a lot impressive, the attack was even done when she was figthing against another servant. And the instinct of Artoria it's great to the point of dodge Tsubame Gaeshi and find a opening against the skilled crazy guy Kojiro who's skill surpass space and time, who achied the level of a True Magic with just skill. This things are more impressive than dodge a unknow attack or invincible attacks, and someone at the level of Lancelot land attacks against them.

By that logic I can say that Bam avoided several of Hoaqin attacks which is WAY better than Tsubame Gaeshi, Hoaqin could make way more than three slashes in single attack, all which were space bending attacks that had abstract trajectories and followed him from different directions. BUM, SKILL

And Bam in recents chapters predicted an actual Prime White(who was containing ofc) slashes. Which is way superior than that, he used that to close the speed gap between them. Mind you, those are visually 7 slashes in a single attack.

No but for real, Tsubame gaeshi is a low level Arie member level skill, it would be seem as dissapointment. Someone able of that in canon is seen as that(Inieta).

Until the day in which the Arie style give infinite speed by pure skill alone then no, they aren't even near the level of Kojiro or Tsubame Gaeshi.

If her move needs her to move then it's going to be stopped by RFC

Lightnnings burst don't need that she move and make clones at distance also don't need that she move.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Does Baam had any answer to the regen of swordmaster and the passive invisibility? If not then i'm gonna stick with the base form

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Even tho i'm not 100% sure that the immobilisation will work as the body of servant are just mana. And even with that if she find she can't escape she can. Just dematerialise and rematerialise after.

mana as in energy?

 

[Regidian]

Does Baam had any answer to the regen of swordmaster and the passive invisibility? If not then i'm gonna stick with the base form

Imnotauser talk about bim being able to evade invisuble atk so he should be able to fight raikou. For the regen don't know

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Does Baam had any answer to the regen of swordmaster and the passive invisibility? If not then i'm gonna stick with the base form

yes, i had repeasted several times, Baam can sense and later learned to see invisible things

he can vaporize her with low 6B stardust ig

 

[Regidian]

mana as in energy?

Yeah energy but don't think it should work like here, mana as an energy is lower in size than a quantum particule field as a servant composed of mana is that.

 

[Regidian]

yes, i had repeasted several times, Baam can sense and later learned to see invisible things

he can vaporize her with low 6B stardust ig

If you talk about ap vaporisation then it will not work. She can just counter it with her own low 6-B atk

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

he can vaporize her with low 6B stardust ig

Same for her with the final blow of Ox King.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well, i'm just gonna stick with the base form since it has been a long debate

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also i'll be go to sleep after i'm done making DBD discussion thread, i would check this thread later after i wake up

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Also i'll be go to sleep after i'm done making DBD discussion thread, i would check this thread later after i wake up

Hope that you dream with getting SSR.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Wait, who said Baam can use Stardust with the Red Thryssa Transformations? Currently, he can only use this with the True Self Mode activated, which is not the case here

 

[WHYNAUT]

Why does Infinity Kojiro keep being mentioned? Raikou doesn't scale to him in any way whatsoever.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

My last message before going to sleep: @ImNot4nUser explain yourself about Stardust

 

[Regidian]

Why does Infinity Kojiro keep being mentioned? Raikou doesn't scale to him in any way whatsoever.

Because somone mention that a perso was more skilled than tsubame gaeshi

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yes, White is more skilled than Tsubami Gaeshi. They were obviously referring to the three blades version, not the infinity one.

 

[Regidian]

Yes, White is more skilled than Tsubami Gaeshi. They were obviously referring to the three blades version, not the infinity one.

Except it is not even the three blade verison have still the transcend dexterity/feint etc.

Not because it can do three slash at that have different directions and bend space that it's better than an atk that is litteraly impossible to evade

 

[WHYNAUT]

"Transcended" is a buzzword. It transcends those because typical feints and feats of dexterity you'd find in a swordfight obviously won't help much against a guy who can "transcend" space and time to perform three slashes at the same time.

With zero feats of it actually being impossible to evade. Besides literally just not getting in the range of the technique is a good way of avoiding it.

White can launch hundreds of slashes at the same with far more range, from more angles, that can't be blocked, with abstract trajectories and that chase after you.

Tsubami Gaeshi gets hyped up a lot more, but when put into practice it's pretty clear which one is superior.

Anyway I'll be leaving it at that, since neither Prime White nor Kojiro are relevant to this match. It would derail the thread too much otherwise.


As for the thread. I'll vote Bam FRA (except the point about him copying arie swordsmanship).

 

[Regidian]

It's litteraly use the second magic to do those transcend you call a buzzword bruh. So not just a transcend because it's not easy for normal swordman to do that but because the second magic make is skill transcending these thing

Tell it's a buzzword it's tell that second magic do nothing. Which is litteraly false.


Can you tell le how can you have a feat of being impossible to be evade except having nobody being able to evade it?

Saber only evade a break tsubame that was only able to do two slash.



Being not on the range of the atk what you mean? He like not do the atk if you not in the range of the atk.

It's like tellling that if a guy have a atk that have the concepts of being unavoidable in the range of 3 meter is a buzzword because at 4 meter it's avoidable .


And the can't be blocked is a buzzword if we follow your thing as it's like show being to be block.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Second magic has nothing to do with feints and dexterity. So yes it's a buzzword.

Asking questions is no use when I've already stated I won't debate it extensively in this thread. In the end, even if all your claims were true, Tsubami Gaeshi only covers a small range, White has no such drawbacks.

No because it actually has feats (yes visual ones, not someone just going "wow his attacks can't be blocked!") to back it up on top of it being explained as a literal law of the tower both in the story and in WoG.

 

[Regidian]

Second magic has nothing to do with feints and dexterity. So yes it's a buzzword.

Asking questions is no use when I've already stated I won't debate it extensively in this thread. In the end, even if all your claims were true, Tsubami Gaeshi only covers a small range, White has no such drawbacks.

No because it actually has feats (yes visual ones, not someone just going "wow his attacks can't be blocked!") to back it up on top of it being explained as a literal law of the tower both in the story and in WoG.

It has something to do with it litteraly tell in the skill description of the material and kn the vn. Not like we even know whay can fully do second magic

"This is the “Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon—Kischua Zelretch” that transcends speed, dexterity, feint and many other elements." Fate/complete material III: World Material - The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Assassin, p.034-035


Having better range don't mean better skill, he just use energy for the better range.

And tsubame have material explication, vn explication of the skill and litteral feat too.

I ask thing but your reasoning have poor reason to discard it.


And contrary to your feat, tsubame gaeshi fully realised never got evaded which can't be tell to your can't be blocked but somone block it.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I was talking about second magic's own functions, which are related to space and time, not to feints and dexterity. It's very clear that what is meant is that feints and dexterity are not of much use in front of techniques that manipulate freaking space and time. Hence "trancends". "Transcend" isn't some end-all-be-all word that has to be taken at face value. It's not like Kojiro exceeds the very concepts of feints and dexterity.

Realized I responded yet again. Sorry the sucking up to the word 'transcend' was just too much. I'm only responding to messages that are actually relevant to this match from now on.

 

[Regidian]

I was talking about second magic's own functions, which are related to space and time, not to feints and dexterity. It's very clear that what is meant is that feints and dexterity are not of much use in front of techniques that manipulate freaking space and time. Hence "trancends". "Transcend" isn't some end-all-be-all word that has to be taken at face value. It's not like Kojiro exceeds the very concepts of feints and dexterity.

Realized I responded yet again. Sorry the sucking up to the word 'transcend' was just too much. I'm only responding to messages that are actually relevant to this match from now on.

Second magic are not only related to space and time. But anyway even whitout that feint and dexterity are related to space and time so i still don't see the problem.


Except not really skill that transcend speed and time exist in multiple number in fate we even have some sword skill with infinite range. Doesn't change that tsubame gaeshi is the only with that mention.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Yeah energy but don't think it should work like here, mana as an energy is lower in size than a quantum particule field as a servant composed of mana is that.

well... It doesn't work at sub quantum, only at quantum lvl since that's the lvl shinsu mentions ig

Same for her with the final blow of Ox King.

Not really, he at difference of her, gets his durability at low 6B and he is in no way close to a oneshot area, unlike her.

If you talk about ap vaporisation then it will not work. She can just counter it with her own low 6-B atk

Fair but does she need to y'know, move to generate the attack, because if so, Bam stop her in her tracks.(unless she is mana and what not at the time she does it)

My last message before going to sleep: @ImNot4nUser explain yourself about Stardust

Talked a lot of low 6B that confused keys lol

it's better than an atk that is litteraly impossible to evade

Wait hold on.(not only White swordmanship also has law manip that does that too, excluding those that resist his law manip, Bam being included because lol irregular)

And the instinct of Artoria it's great to the point of dodge Tsubame Gaeshi and find a opening against the skilled crazy guy Kojiro who's skill surpass space and time

This two statements are totally different, but of course, shouldn't be surprised of Nasu smh.
Anyways, I sincerely see Bam taking it more times than not against this key.

 

[Regidian]

well... It doesn't work at sub quantum, only at quantum lvl since that's the lvl shinsu mentions ig

Not really, he at difference of her, gets his durability at low 6B and he is in no way close to a oneshot area, unlike her.

Fair but does she need to y'know, move to generate the attack, because if so, Bam stop her in her tracks.(unless she is mana and what not at the time she does it)

Talked a lot of low 6B that confused keys lol

Wait hold on.(not only White swordmanship also has law manip that does that too, excluding those that resist his law manip, Bam being included because lol irregular)

This two statements are totally different, but of course, shouldn't be surprised of Nasu smh.
Anyways, I sincerely see Bam taking it more times than not against this key.

Expectro don't have the thing. Artoria evade a two slash tsubame gaeshi, it was still hard since only a minisucly way to evade it but it's possible for the two slash

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yeah energy but don't think it should work like here, mana as an energy is lower in size than a quantum particule field as a servant composed of mana is that.

Oh yeah and this is completely nonsensical. That's like saying molecular matter manipulation shouldn't work on humans because we're made up of quantum particles. Besides Servants don't have a resistance to matter manipulation listed, so it wouldn't be applicable in this match.

 

[Regidian]

Oh yeah and this is completely nonsensical. That's like saying molecular matter manipulation shouldn't work on humans because we're made up of quantum particles. Besides Servants don't have a resistance to matter manipulation listed, so it wouldn't be applicable in this match.

We already tell like 10 time in multiple thread that servant are getting a crt in not some long time. So well.


And why it should be nonsensical? Servant are not made of matter they are made of mana. So you comparaison is weird as human are made of matter, of atom etc

 

[ImNot4nUser]

ah how could i forget nasu verse biggest characteristic, CRT'S

 

[WHYNAUT]

And it's not here yet. So well.

And their bodies still act as if they're made of matter generally. Besides Shinsoo isn't the same as matter either, it can just fulfill similar functions, same as mana. Besides your original point had nothing to do with them not being made of matter, but rather with mana being smaller than quantum particles.
And for the record, neither I nor some other knowledgeable Fate people from the wiki know where you got it being smaller from in the first place.

EDIT: And apparently Servants aren't even made of mana in the first place, instead they're made of ether, one of the elements in Fate.

 

[Regidian]

And it's not here yet. So well.

And their bodies still act as if they're made of matter generally. Besides Shinsoo isn't the same as matter either, it can just fulfill similar functions, same as mana. Besides your original point had nothing to do with them not being made of matter, but rather with mana being smaller than quantum particles.
And for the record, neither I nor some other knowledgeable Fate people from the wiki know where you got it being smaller from in the first place.

EDIT: And apparently Servants aren't even made of mana in the first place, instead they're made of ether, one of the elements in Fate.

It quite simple tamamo cat is a servant made of mana/ether (the two are mentionned actually). And she have her state of existance being unstable on quantum level and since she still composed of that mana/ether, it's obligatory lower in composition to be able to still exist in that level


Due to Tamamo Cat having her state being unstable on a quantum level

 

[WHYNAUT]

it's obligatory lower in composition to be able to still exist in that level

Your words or the series?

Because being unstable on the quantum level has nothing to do with smaller particles. Like I don't see the logic in it at all. Her page only mentions her being intangible due to this.

 

[Regidian]

Your words or the series?

Because being unstable on the quantum level has nothing to do with smaller particles. Like I don't see the logic in it at all. Her page only mentions her being intangible due to this.

The series tell that all servant are made of ether/mana and so she despite being in a unstable quantum state is still made of that ether/mana. It obligatory mean that mana/ether have at least the same scale than this for being able to still be composed of mana in that state.


She can't be composed of thing bigger than her state.

Like how you can't tell that an atome is composed of molecule.

 

[WHYNAUT]

And this makes mana smaller because...?

It wouldn't make sense for mana to be smaller than quantum particles anyway. Servants can interact with mana, but can't interact with Tamamo due to her intangibility which is at the quantum level. So quantum level intangibility > mana.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Waah I missed so much

 

[Creaturemaster971]

But yeah this sword stuff seems a lot better than Assassin Kojiro's Tsubame Gaeshi.

Saber Kojiro is on a whole other level compared to this, but that doesn't really help Raikou since he would stomp her too.

Yeah at this point I think it's safe to say Raikou still doesn't outskill.

Musashi did indeed state that non-Demon Swordsmaster Hozoin was superior. It's unknown how he would compare to Raikou with both in peak condition but they'd presumably still be of similar level, though Raikou's usual weakness to one-on-one duels would still apply.

Also while Musashi improved massively in order to defeat Raikou, she hadn't reached Void yet.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

So overall I'd call Baam superior, at least somewhat

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Musashi did indeed state that non-Demon Swordsmaster Hozoin was superior. It's unknown how he would compare to Raikou with both in peak condition but they'd presumably still be of similar level, though Raikou's usual weakness to one-on-one duels would still apply.

Also while Musashi improved massively in order to defeat Raikou, she hadn't reached Void yet.

To remember, that weakness is said by the chick that perfected the ability to cut karma in her fight against Raikou, and the other dudes that surpass Raikou without doubt in skill in shimosa are other two guys with infinite speed via pure skill, so the "weakness" of Raikou it's a bit doubtful.

I really remember that she reached the void in the fight, but since currently I'm working I can find that to confirm so pass I guess.

In general Raikou have the edge in skill, so the argument that she can't touch Baam because IR don't work.

About if the matter immobilization would work or not because of how servants are I don't know, so I'm not gonna touch that part, I'm only gonna say that if indeed work then she turn Spirit Form to slip of it, and although the presence of servants become more perceptible when they attack in Spirit Form irrc they are to some extent still undetectable to some extent just that the senses of servants are so good that they still feel it (remember that they can feel abstract existences and NE2), so don't know if the IR of Baam could react against that.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

It's a weakness when she's up against people of comparable skill such as Musashi (pre-karma cutting). I also rewatched the fight and she had not reached Void yet.

Yagyu had not achieved Suigetsu at that point, and was still far superior to Raikou, to the point that a Musashi that had perfected karma-cutting to the point of far surpassing Raikou couldn't find a single possible future where she could truly defeat him. He was also debatably superior to Assassin Kojiro at this point.

However, ImNot, you said Baam didn't copy the entire sword style. How much of it did he copy?
The full style would definitely be too much for Raikou to handle but the same might not be true of Baam's level.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

However, ImNot, you said Baam didn't copy the entire sword style. How much of it did he copy?
The full style would definitely be too much for Raikou to handle but the same might not be true of Baam's level.

he copied everything and mastered it.
there is no perfect/more complete style as far as we know, if that's what you mean, more like, this is master lvl and it gets even better from there. not even prime white(Mr.hundreds of slashes) is the peak of arie swordmanship, Arie Hon is, he also founded it and has like 20,000+ to train it off, he better not dissapoint.

in spoiler
and yes, the hundreds of slashes in a single attack of prime White is to much for him too, he was doing fine with less danmaku around 7 iirc (see the difference between hundreds and this) since he predicted the attacks and that compensated the fact that white was way faster than him, he could avoid them, until White decided to get slightly more faster and bam failed to avoid his blade twice so he got cut in the third attemp.

and bam doesn't use swords so he only scales to hoaqin, not white.
since white is now way stronger and Bam hasn't touched a sword ever since we had not a comparable fight on equal foots that don't include white speedblitzing

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is certainly interesting, i will reply later

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[ImNot4nUser]

classic, lot of traction, extremely dead after, if only more ppl voted.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This is certainly interesting, i will reply later

When you come up lel

 

[Arceus0x]

Ill just vote for baam then