Because yhwach absorbed mimihagi, and gave pernida a schrift, which would automatically give any power he has to him.
Manga explicitly states that the Compulsory isn't a schrift granted by Yhwach, chapter 656 pg 3-4. He and Gerard were assigned their Schrift based on their powers which makes sense since both come from Reio. They had their powers before Yhwach got to them and were never granted any by him in the first place.
True, but that doesn't mean that mimihagi is abstract in his existence. That just means he had enough power/ability to stabilize the Soul King and prevent the worlds from ending.
Where does Bleach ever say that Mimihagi embodies the concept of stillness? If you can get that statement for me, I'll happily take back my words.
I’m going to call out people disagreeing with my thread who aren’t explaining why they disagree with it outside of conjecture like calling my hard work “word salads” without explaining why it’s a word salad or saying i’m not defining the abilities properly without explanation why i’m not defining them properly, these objectively aren’t arguments against my claims. They're just personal attacks.
Why would the idea that we accept Reishi in general to be abstract or conceptual in nature matter at all to the individual composition of The Mimihagi? That isn’t a counter towards the Mimihagi being conceptual just because beings which don’t embody concepts or aren’t incorporeal, aren’t considered conceptual or abstract. That’s fallacious reasoning, it doesn’t matter what we considered Reishi as in regards to other entities. What matters is what it’s considered in relation towards The Mimihagi, and as I explained within the descriptions provided, it relates to The Mimihagi being an incorporeal mass.
People do understand aspects about Reio’s existence, people understand that The Mimihagi embodies and governs the concept of “stillness” while Pernida embodies and governs the concept of “progression”, people know that Reio’s a paradoxical existence because of this. The fact we’re acting like characters like Tokinada (who as the head of Tsunayashiro clan, has historical records of everything which has happened within the Soul Society (Chapter 6), including the “original sin” which is the Soul King’s mutilation (Chapter 6) and Ichibei (who existed at the same time Reio existed (Chapter 22) aren’t knowledgeable about Reio’s existence is absurd, you’d require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume these characters aren’t knowledgeable, or are lying about Reio’s existence. Arguing that the scans provided are “nowhere near as conclusive enough to actually give a clear enough answer” is not only more assumptive, as you’re assuming these character’s aren’t knowledgeable about such things, or are misunderstanding something, despite evidence to the contrary, you’re also making claims without evidencing them.
First - The number of people who’ve interacted with Abstract Entities doesn’t negate the evidence behind them being abstract or not, it could just mean those characters can interact with Abstract Entities. There’s nothing inherently against this interpretation, and I'd honestly find more evidence for this claim being true compared to the opposite tbh.
Duedate you do understand you’re doing the exact samething correct? You’re making personal conclusions about statements that are explicitly stated in the text, such as asserting we don’t have conclusive enough evidence for Soul King’s existence despite the text literally explaining Soul King’s existence. Stop this bullshit cherry picking you do, either abide by your own logic or stop asserting this opinion as truth.
ummm.. they dont stop existing, they were absorbed by Yhwach and he gained their powers, just like how he becomes the soul king by absorbing him
You can choose to take it as a personal attack, but I do not mean it as one in the slightest. Whenever I argue against you, you tend to take things personally and I see that, but I've been long since tired of trying to convince you otherwise so take it however you like. And I'm not saying your implications don't have support, what I'm saying is that they don't have strong enough support for me to sign off on them.
It's a counter towards Mimihagi being an abstract being because the only description towards Mimihagi's description we're ever given is that he's a "right hand made of reishi". And being that Reishi is defined a spiritual matter, which is treated to be the spiritual counterpart to normal matter, I'm more inclined to take that viewpoint when talking about Mimihagi.
You've yet to post a link which calls Mimihagi an embodiment of stillness which is what I'm looking for as evidence to the point you're trying to make. I'm not saying people aren't knowledgeable about Reio's existent, what I am saying is that people who are talking admittly don't know what exactly is going on with him in the moment as this scan points out with its questioning nature towards what's going on with Reio. You're taking my words and applying them in a way I don't mean them. And the most important thing about your argument in of itself that you have to realize, is that its not my job to bring further evidence to disprove your lack of it. It's my job to determine whether or not what evidence you provide is up to snuff to let the changes you propose go through. That is part of what my role as Thread Moderator dictates, I respond to the points you propose with my reasons and you try to convince me otherwise if I disagree. I'm not going to bother hunting down evidence to disprove you, unless the evidence you provide is conclusive enough on its own to require anything of that nature. You can try to demand it as much as you want, but my argument can stand without it even if you don't like it.
The issue here is that without explicit statements or strong enough secondary statements towards Mimihagi being an abstract being, how other characters interact with him directly on screen is one of our best bets to ascertain if he's truly what you're arguing for. And the fact that Mimihagi isn't treated as unique to interact with in any capacity besides Ukitake offering his body to him, works against him in this regard.
The problem here is that as we currently accept both Yhwach and Reio, with Mimihagi absorbed they'd end up with his abilities, including his physiology. We currently accept that Yhwach is resistant to the All-Mighty's sight because of Mimihagi. So unless we're going to decouple those ideas, they can be used as evidence towards Mimihagi existing in the way you propose. Ichigo notably lacks any abilities of this type, which is important because he's never noted in any capacity to possess them. Within Bleach he very much is a physical fighter through and through, and for him to suddenly gain the ability to touch abstract concepts has no basis in any of what is presented within Bleach. His uniqueness comes from his ties to so many different soul groups and his zanpakuto that only ever effects his physical stats. Neither of those unqiue factors have any reason to grant him such an ability as far as we're shown in Bleach. And looking at Gerard and Perinada, they're important because due to a genuine lack of info on Mimihagi, looking to the other parts of Reio are our next best bet. It's odd you're trying to discount Perinada, when in your very proposed description of the scans above, you make it a point to draw a line of connection between Perinada and Mimihaga. As all parts of Reio's body, who have gained sentience, it makes sense to look between them to understand the nature of these body parts as a whole. And seeing that no descriptions of Abstract Existence is associated to either, we have even less reason to believe Mimihagi would uniquely possess this physiology.
Because Lack of statements is a genuine lack of evidence. You can act like it isn't and you're fine to do so, I don't care. But whenever you try to push upgrades without them, I'm going to point out you don't have them because statements are a vital part of actually verifying conclusions you make. Cause otherwise, it looks like you're connecting dots to fit your point of view without solid backing for them. Statements, descriptions, and direct showings are the strongest evidence you can have, and without them, I'm going to need a lot of alternative resources to accept your view as good enough to go on the profile.
What heavy implications? What heavy implications are you talking about? Because you literally only have five scans for all of this. Three of them, the only two from the manga, only say about Mimihagi's existence that he controls stagnation, was the soul kings arm, will offer divine protection in exchange for all but someones eyes and is made of reishi. There is no allusions in any of these statements or showings that point towards Mimihagi being some abstract existence or non-physical being. Then lets look at the rest of your scans, this one neither mentions nor alludes to Mimihagi in any form or shape. It defines the world before Reio's interruption, funnily enough as one which was in a cycle but got stopped by the hollows eating. So even before Mimihagi was around, there was stagnation which doesn't support your argument in any capacity. It's not alluded to within this scan that stagnation concentrated itself into Reio's arm and then became Mimhagi when it was separated. This scan only talks about how Reio kept the cycle going, once again no allusion towards his arm being an abstract thing that is the embodiment of stillness. What I can see an allusion to is that during this time, he used the powers he possessed with either arm to help keep the cycle going fine and dandy, nothing more. And this scan straight up just reiterates what we know from the manga, that Mimihagi controlled stagnation. Nothing here defines the arm being stagnation itself, and by saying Reio exist in a state between them all that is allluded to is that Reio required these arms in order to stagnate and advance himself. That is the only natural conclusion, because nothing is said about the limb existing only on an abstract level or anything like that. So, seperately, none of these scans support the idea of existing abstractly or acasually. And when brought together, they don't come to that conclusion either, the best bet I personally see is some form of trans-duality because Reio predates life and death, but seeing that Reio and Perinada just die, I struggle to see that as well.
Of course I've only provided counter interpretation, cause that's all you have here. Your interpretation, so if I don't agree with it, I'm going to tell you that I don't agree and why. That's all I'm getting from you, so that's all I'll give you in return. You tell me to stop asserting my opinion as truth, and I don't intend to. What I'm really trying to demonstrate is that your opinion makes more leaps in logic than the one I propose, so I'm more incline to stick with my opinion than accept yours as true. We're both doing the exact same thing here, it's just we've made different conclusions.
You’re again talking about generalities here, yes Reishi is defined as spiritual matter, which is the spiritual counterpart to normal matter, this doesn’t mean Reishi can’t exist, nor can constitute an abstract being’s existence, if Reishi can contain one’s fundamental information within it, then it can constitute similar existences, such as abstractions. I don’t understand this constant appeal to this statement when it’s entirely neutral within context. It’s just explaining that the Mimihagi is constructed of Reishi, which isn’t up for debate, i agree. What I'm arguing is that Reishi can exist on an abstract/conceptual level, and I'm using the Mimihagi as my evidence. You need to address the conceptual existence part directly, not appeal to this neutral statement which doesn’t prove evidence claims.
I’m going to address the embodiment part of the argument in my separate post, as I'll be able to explain that in much more depth compared to this one without causing the sentence structures to become weird, or this post to become needlessly long.
We do have strong evidence, the fact it’s directly implied that Mimihagi affects those on an ontological level adds credence to the possibility that Mimihagi is the conception of “stillness” itself, and your arguments against that has been sub-part at best since they're based around appealing to possibilities which you haven't evidenced for being probabilities.
They could only be considered as evidence against Mimihagi having that level of existence if you believe those who interact with it don’t have that level of interaction, so let’s get into that discussion.
You’re twisting the **** out of that statement so hard right now, that was in response to YOU claiming that since we aren’t given direct statements about the capabilities of one’s ability to interact with conceptual entities, it means they can’t, Which is fundamentally incorrect.
The fact everything we have about the Mimihagi points to it being a incorporeal mass of Reishi, that flows like a ink-like substance, it’s a mass of shadowy Reishi without object physicality. It’s definitionally non-physical/incorporeal.
It directly does because Mimihagi governs the concept of “stillness” and “stillness” can affect the universe, and is a universal constant as proven in the scans you’re quoting, you’re literally misunderstanding everything about my post Duedate. This definitely proves my argument regarding Mimihagi’s Conceptual Manipulation, and the level I’m asserting it to be.
If you’re saying that this scan alludes to Reio requiring these arms in order to stagnate and advance himself, then that provides credence to my argument, correct? That’s my entire point with this scan in specific, that these arms affect Soul King’s existence, causing him to stagnate and advance, but when removed left him in a state between stagnation, and advancement. You’re agreeing with my point Duedate…..
I’ll hopefully convince you otherwise after I’ve explained everything in much more depth later.
These seem reasonable, so agree.
Hehe, I agree with you Deceived, and I'll give my comments on your recent argument for the time being.
Absolutely true, the onus would be on the opponent to prove that it fundamentally cannot exist on an abstract level.
The notion that characters like Kisuke, Yoruichi, Jushiro, Yhwach, Ichibe, etc would be "misunderstanding" what is going on is asinine. It's not like we are getting info from layman characters, it isn't Renji coming out of nowhere to say this, the information is presented by reputable sources. So I agree with Deceived here, Duedate saying "maybe they don't get it" is a neat headcanon and nothing more.
Yeah this is just a ludicrous attempt to handwave the statements and feats. A consequence of Mimihagi embodying this abstract stillness would make characters like Yhwach capable of that level of NPI, and nothing contradicts it. Duedate would have to prove that Yhwach objectively does not have that level of NPI, and unfortunately such evidence does not exist.
I am actually baffled that the counter argumentation just assumes that Bleach characters cannot have that level of NPI, without even substantiating those claims. It's blatant incredulity and some of the most sloppy excuse for a rebuttal I've seen in a while.
This ^, we do not need to be spoonfed information like idiots. We can employ simple logic. For example, let's say X is a ghost, and Y can interact with X, we would conclude that Y can interact with ghosts, not that X isn't really a ghost. It is literally the same case here, but this level of NPI is more impressive. The entire notion of powerscaling is to be able to quantify a characters abilities without having to be spoonfed everything. Character W can produce 5 gigajoules of energy, character Z can overpower W, but Z has no feats. We don't say "W cannot produce 5 gigajoules" we say "Z scales to or above 5 gigajoules". Like let's drop the hypocrisy, and just realize that Deceived has the superior position.
I'd agree that Mimihagi isn't portrayed as normal matter. It's almost drawn like a 2D object in a 3D world, it's very obviously not a standard physical mass of reishi from a visual perspective.
Yeah governing the concept of stillness is rather direct, doesn't seem like there's any real contentions there.
It is verbatim stated that Reio exists in a state between, as you say.
Yeah TLDR; Deceived by far produces the more compelling argument, with a preponderance of evidence dwarfing the opponent's incredulity. Obvi I agree with the OP.
