I’m going to rebut Duedate’s arguments again, and after that, later today (Edit: it'll be out tomorrow, can't finish it tonight), I'll explain in extreme depth why these three contentious abilities are supported by the scans provided. (Also i ******* hate typing bibles like this, it's tedious as ****)
It's a counter towards Mimihagi being an abstract being because the only description towards Mimihagi's description we're ever given is that he's a "right hand made of reishi". And being that Reishi is defined a spiritual matter, which is treated to be the spiritual counterpart to normal matter, I'm more inclined to take that viewpoint when talking about Mimihagi.
You’re again talking about generalities here, yes Reishi is defined as spiritual matter, which is the spiritual counterpart to normal matter, this doesn’t mean Reishi can’t exist, nor can constitute an abstract being’s existence, if Reishi can contain one’s fundamental information within it, then it can constitute similar existences, such as abstractions. I don’t understand this constant appeal to this statement when it’s entirely neutral within context. It’s just explaining that the Mimihagi is constructed of Reishi, which isn’t up for debate, i agree. What I'm arguing is that Reishi can exist on an abstract/conceptual level, and I'm using the Mimihagi as my evidence. You need to address the conceptual existence part directly, not appeal to this neutral statement which doesn’t prove evidence claims.
You've yet to post a link which calls Mimihagi an embodiment of stillness which is what I'm looking for as evidence to the point you're trying to make. I'm not saying people aren't knowledgeable about Reio's existent, what I am saying is that people who are talking admittly don't know what exactly is going on with him in the moment as this
scan points out with its questioning nature towards what's going on with Reio. You're taking my words and applying them in a way I don't mean them. And the most important thing about your argument in of itself that you have to realize, is that its not my job to bring further evidence to disprove your lack of it. It's my job to determine whether or not what evidence you provide is up to snuff to let the changes you propose go through. That is part of what my role as Thread Moderator dictates, I respond to the points you propose with my reasons and you try to convince me otherwise if I disagree. I'm not going to bother hunting down evidence to disprove you, unless the evidence you provide is conclusive enough on its own to require anything of that nature. You can try to demand it as much as you want, but my argument can stand without it even if you don't like it.
I’m going to address the embodiment part of the argument in my separate post, as I'll be able to explain that in much more depth compared to this one without causing the sentence structures to become weird, or this post to become needlessly long.
Duedate, you’re arguing that we don’t have enough information to prove that Mimihagi isn’t affecting the Soul King on an ontological level because of the possibility that these characters are misunderstanding something despite the fact the statement provided doesn’t indicate such, the question mark is in regards to the existence after the Soul King had his arms removed, it isn’t questing the Mimihagi’s capabilities of affecting something on an ontological level. You’re misreading that scan.
Dude you only have brought up speculation against the scan, you just deadass hit me “
it could be possible they’re misunderstanding something” and acting like bringing up a possibility negates the very clear implication of the statement. Until you can provide evidence why your interpretation has more credence compared to mind then drop this point.
I don’t care if you believe it’s my job to convince you otherwise when you aren’t even critically engaging with my arguments right now. You’re just bringing up possibilities, not explaining why these possibilities matter, or have similar truth-values compared to mine, and are saying because of these possibilities we don’t have enough evidence to assert that Mimihagi’s “stillness” can affect one on an ontological level.
Like genuinely, do you believe your interpretation has more/equal truth-value compared to my interpretation?
The issue here is that without explicit statements or strong enough secondary statements towards Mimihagi being an abstract being, how other characters interact with him directly on screen is one of our best bets to ascertain if he's truly what you're arguing for. And the fact that Mimihagi isn't treated as unique to interact with in any capacity besides Ukitake offering his body to him, works against him in this regard.
We do have strong evidence, the fact it’s directly implied that Mimihagi affects those on an ontological level adds credence to the possibility that Mimihagi is the conception of “stillness” itself, and your arguments against that has been sub-part at best since they're based around appealing to possibilities which you haven't evidenced for being probabilities.
Duedate…. That doesn’t make any sense, what are you talking about with this whole “
how other characters interact with him directly on screen is one of our best bets to ascertain if he’s truly what you’re arguing for.”, this entire point means nothing, it’s completely countered by saying those people have NPI on that level….. I’m confused why you would’ve made such a non statement….
It doesn’t because it’s a neutral claim, you’re arguing that since the level of difficulty to interact with the Mimihagi is never specifically brought up, it necessarily means it’s evidence against it having such a level of existence. It just doesn’t Duedate, the lack of statement isn’t evidence of lacking, if you have supplemental evidence which indicates a different level of existence, then it would innately have a needed level of NPI for interaction. And if you’re asking what supplemental evidence I have, it’s the Soul King existence scan which directly implies "stillness" affects one on an ontological level, as in the nature of one's being/existence.
The problem here is that as we currently accept both Yhwach and Reio, with Mimihagi absorbed they'd end up with his abilities, including his physiology. We currently accept that Yhwach is resistant to the All-Mighty's sight because of Mimihagi. So unless we're going to decouple those ideas, they can be used as evidence towards Mimihagi existing in the way you propose. Ichigo notably lacks any abilities of this type, which is important because he's never noted in any capacity to possess them. Within Bleach he very much is a physical fighter through and through, and for him to suddenly gain the ability to touch abstract concepts has no basis in any of what is presented within Bleach. His uniqueness comes from his ties to so many different soul groups and his zanpakuto that only ever effects his physical stats. Neither of those unqiue factors have any reason to grant him such an ability as far as we're shown in Bleach. And looking at Gerard and Perinada, they're important because due to a genuine lack of info on Mimihagi, looking to the other parts of Reio are our next best bet. It's odd you're trying to discount Perinada, when in your very proposed description of the scans above, you make it a point to draw a line of connection between Perinada and Mimihaga. As all parts of Reio's body, who have gained sentience, it makes sense to look between them to understand the nature of these body parts as a whole. And seeing that no descriptions of Abstract Existence is associated to either, we have even less reason to believe Mimihagi would uniquely possess this physiology.
They could only be considered as evidence against Mimihagi having that level of existence if you believe those who interact with it don’t have that level of interaction, so let’s get into that discussion.
I love the fact you call my descriptions given in Mimihagi’s profile as “word salads” when this entire Ichigo section is one massive word salad in itself.
Ichigo doesn’t need a direct statement of the narrative saying “hey goobers reading my manga, Ichigo can interact with Abstractions now” when he has visual evidence of said interaction, statements aren’t the only valid form of evidence Duedate, this entire “uniqueness” point means nothing because Ichigo’s “uniqueness” doesn’t disallow him from having this level of interaction, it’s a nebulous point.
No it wouldn’t because those characters have distinctively different compositions compared to the Mimihagi. They aren’t incorporeal masses of Reishi, which is usually a distinct factor that Type 1 Abstract Existences have in comparison with other Abstractions. To compare Mimihagi’s existence to Pernida’s or Gerard’s given this evidence would be flawed. I hope we at least agree that Mimihagi is an incorporeal mass of Reishi given its visual appearance, and how it interacts with physical entities?
I’ve already addressed why comparing Mimihagi’s existence with both Pernida’s and Gerard’s existences is innately flawed.
Because Lack of statements is a genuine lack of evidence. You can act like it isn't and you're fine to do so, I don't care. But whenever you try to push upgrades without them, I'm going to point out you don't have them because statements are a vital part of actually verifying conclusions you make. Cause otherwise, it looks like you're connecting dots to fit your point of view without solid backing for them. Statements, descriptions, and direct showings are the strongest evidence you can have, and without them, I'm going to need a lot of alternative resources to accept your view as good enough to go on the profile.
You’re twisting the **** out of that statement so hard right now, that was in response to
YOU claiming that since we aren’t given direct statements about the capabilities of one’s ability to interact with conceptual entities, it means they can’t, Which is fundamentally incorrect.
I’m not saying having zero evidence/heavy lack of evidence, and you objecting to that lack of evidence is wrong, or fallacious, what i’m saying the statement “No one is ever stated to have directly interacted with concepts to touch any of them” is fallacious because we don’t need direct statements to prove that, if you interact with an Abstract Existence (Type 1) then you’re innately interacting with the concept itself. It’s just an inherent thing.
I do have “solid” backing for them, and I'll explain more in-depth in my post regarding these specific scans/abilities.
What heavy implications? What heavy implications are you talking about? Because you literally only have five scans for all of this. Three of them, the only two from the manga, only say about Mimihagi's existence that
he controls stagnation, was the soul kings arm,
will offer divine protection in exchange for all but someones eyes and
is made of reishi. There is no allusions in any of these statements or showings that point towards Mimihagi being some abstract existence or non-physical being. Then lets look at the rest of your scans,
this one neither mentions nor alludes to Mimihagi in any form or shape. It defines the world before Reio's interruption, funnily enough as one which was in a cycle but got stopped by the hollows eating
The fact everything we have about the Mimihagi points to it being a incorporeal mass of Reishi,
that flows like a ink-like substance, it’s a mass of shadowy Reishi without object physicality. It’s definitionally non-physical/incorporeal.
I know it doesn’t mention Mimihagi, because that’s not the intention of the scan, it’s referencing what “stillness/stagnation” defines and affects within the cosmology, and i seems like you agree that stagnation defines, and affects the world before Reio’s interruption, so…. Thank you for agreeing with my post? I don’t see how you would’ve thought this would support your argument when you’re just making the same argument I'm making….
So even before Mimihagi was around, there was stagnation which doesn't support your argument in any capacity. It's not alluded to within this scan that stagnation concentrated itself into Reio's arm and then became Mimhagi when it was separated. This
scan only talks about how Reio kept the cycle going, once again no allusion towards his arm being an abstract thing that is the embodiment of stillness. What I can see an allusion to is that during this time, he used the powers he possessed with either arm to help keep the cycle going fine and dandy, nothing more.
It directly does because Mimihagi governs the concept of “stillness” and “stillness” can affect the universe, and is a universal constant as proven in the scans you’re quoting, you’re literally misunderstanding everything about my post Duedate. This definitely proves my argument regarding Mimihagi’s Conceptual Manipulation, and the level I’m asserting it to be.
You’re misunderstanding (again) my argument Duedate, I'm not saying, nor claiming that the concept of stagnation concentrated itself into Reio’s arm and then became the Mimihagi after it was separated…. I’m saying that the Mimihagi controls the concept of “stillness”, which you seem to agree with, and this control extends to the ontological level as of the SK existence scan, which adds credence it’s the actual embodiment of the concept of “stillness”, not just having governance over the concept. I can see why people could have contentions with the embodiment part, so I'll explain that part in-depth in my next post, and if you still don’t agree, then there’s nothing I can do.
It seems like most of your contentions are based around Mimihagi’s abstract existence. What's your opinion about Mimihagi’s Acausality and Conceptual Manipulation? Since it seems like you agree somewhat with the Conceptual Manipulation, and i don’t know your opinion yet on his Acausality.
The scan was to evidence the fact that stagnation affected the world itself, that’s all.
And this
scan straight up just reiterates what we know from the manga, that Mimihagi controlled stagnation. Nothing here defines the arm being stagnation itself, and by saying Reio exist in a state between them all that is allluded to is that Reio required these arms in order to stagnate and advance himself. That is the only natural conclusion, because nothing is said about the limb existing only on an abstract level or anything like that. So, seperately, none of these scans support the idea of existing abstractly or acasually. And when brought together, they don't come to that conclusion either, the best bet I personally see is some form of trans-duality because Reio predates life and death, but seeing that Reio and Perinada just die, I struggle to see that as well.
If you’re saying that this scan alludes to Reio requiring these arms in order to stagnate and advance himself, then that provides credence to my argument, correct? That’s my entire point with this scan in specific, that these arms affect Soul King’s existence, causing him to stagnate and advance, but when removed left him in a state between stagnation, and advancement. You’re agreeing with my point Duedate…..
I disagree but I'll address this more in-depth in my later post.
Of course I've only provided counter interpretation, cause that's all you have here. Your interpretation, so if I don't agree with it, I'm going to tell you that I don't agree and why. That's all I'm getting from you, so that's all I'll give you in return. You tell me to stop asserting my opinion as truth, and I don't intend to. What I'm really trying to demonstrate is that your opinion makes more leaps in logic than the one I propose, so I'm more incline to stick with my opinion than accept yours as true. We're both doing the exact same thing here, it's just we've made different conclusions.
And you've just not given me enough to where I can agree with the deduction you've made over my own.
I’ll hopefully convince you otherwise after I’ve explained everything in much more depth later.
