Mewtwo, Mew, and Legendary Bird Trio Upgrade

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So since nobody else was making this, I guess I'll do it.

Basically, my proposal is that Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres be upgraded to 6-B via scaling to Lugia.

In Pokemon 2000, the Lugia and the Legendary Bird Trio clash due to the main villain riling the Trio up. While Lugia is stated to be the "master" of the Trio and stronger than each of them individually, he is not shown to be so above them that he could effortlessly take them down in a single blow. They're still shown to be in the same league. This wouldn't be contradictory to feats, as Moltres' High 7-A feat, the reason the Trio is currently rated as they are, is simply a side effect of Moltres existing. It's not even close to a full display of its power.

This would also scale to Mewtwo, who is superior to each member of the Trio, and Mew, who fought on even grounds with Mewtwo.

Thoughts?

 

[Cropfist]

According to Lugia's talk page the country level calc wasn't accepted.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Agree. I agree entirely. If I recall correctly, the Birds also took down Lugia for a spell.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

According to Lugia's talk page the country level calc wasn't accepted.

Lugia is already rated as "At least 6-C" with the "6-B" added afterwards.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

According to Lugia's talk page the country level calc wasn't accepted.

But his profile has the Country level things still on it...?

 

[KillitwithC4]

Idk about this. For what I can remember about the movie. It took those 3 combined to somewhat overwhelm Lugia. It wouldn't make sense for them to each be on par with Lugia when Lugia could take all 3 of them on.

 

[Cropfist]

Appears as if it was going to be downgraded but was forgotte.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

As shown, due to creating this thread, Azzy now changed his mind, and no one was certain about the downgrade. And the new calc was trying to find logic in fiction (saying that wing flapping can't create a storm, despite the fact that this Pokemon can learn Thunder through TM), despite the fact that storm was legitimately stated.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Appears as if it was going to be downgraded but was forgotte.

It was never downgraded because no one agreed on the downgrade, it was just uncertainty as to which should be used.

IIRC, Chaos' calc (the first one) was for the energy of the storm itself. The one linked on its profile is for the actual creation of the storm.

Edit: Cat's exact comments, explaining why he believes his method is a more accurate way of gauging Lugia's power.

"Chaos got a figure for the power emitted by thunderstorm and used a multiplier based on duration to obtain the power an equally strong storm would give out in 40 days, but that's very different from the energy needed to create the storm."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump. Should I just highlight this since it's an admin's thread?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Bump. Should I just highlight this since it's an admin's thread?

If the thread doesn't naturally gain more traction in a little bit, I say highlighting it is the best way to go.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Highlighting this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Great. Thanks, Lina Now to add onto my point about the scaling. Lugia is a solid 6-B. And while the birds aren't completely on its level, they were capable of taking it down together (although he eventually came back and saved the day because music), so they should get some scaling to it, and enough to keep the country rating (i.e. no Low 6-B). Even if they did get small country, the psychic cats should get the 6-B rating due to being stronger than the birds.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I have mentioned this on the pokemon thread


OBD have Base Mewtwo via scaling from Lugia at Country level

(And, kind of off-topic, but they also have Mega Mewtwo at Continent to Possibly Moon level.)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

While I'd personally be okay with MM2 scaling to the Tao Trio/Mortality Duo, not sure if the scaling is accurate. How about we cross that bridge when we get there?

 

[FateAlbane]

The three birds are definitely not equal to Lugia, per se, as KillitWithC4 said, it took Moltres, Zapdos and Articuno together (and somewhat bloodlusted) to take down Lugia. I think they should be close to him, but not in the exact same tier individually. I can see them being upgraded to the same league, but in a way where individually Lugia should still have the clear advantage, so like Cal said, I'd say low 6-B for the birds and 6-B to Mew and Mewtwo.

 

[Promestein]

We could just divide Lugia's calc by three for the birds.

Ho-oh should scale too, right?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's possible that division by 3 would work. Would they still be able to hurt him at /3? Actual question. Not sure. Regardless, Ho-oh scales to Lugia himself. They're equals.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems reasonable.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'll edit (base) Mewtwo's and Mew's profile then, as they have seem to been decided. The birds, however, I will wait off on, because we haven't decided on 6-B or low 6-B

 

[Promestein]

Lugia should just be straight-up 6-B, yeah?

Also, should Mew and Mewtwo be At least 6-B or just 6-B...?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm for at least. Mewtwo could very well be the strongest pokemon of the original series (Kanto/Johto), and Mew scales directly

 

[FateAlbane]

But wait, wouldn't he be the undisputed strongest due to hax more than AP? I think 6-B is enough. EDIT: Then again, since Lugia is a solid 6-B and Mewtwo is definitely stronger, the at least rating makes sense.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lugia resists all of his hax though (due to being a psychic type). He'd need AP to be stronger than Lugia

 

[FateAlbane]

I edited the above comment because I just remembered that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, does anyone mind if I put Mega Mewtwo's speed at MHS, possibly MHS+, considering base Mewtwo is very close to MHS+, and his MHS rating is due to scaling from a much weaker being?

 

[SomebodyData]

I agree with you @Cal, only I'm thinking "At least MHS, Possibly MHS+ "

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. I'm changing it to SD's proposition.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I have mentioned this on the pokemon thread

OBD have Base Mewtwo via scaling from Lugia at Country level

(And, kind of off-topic, but they also have Mega Mewtwo at Continent to Possibly Moon level.)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Right. I forgot. Have we decided on low 6-B for the birds or full on 6-B?

Once we figure that out, then we'll get to Mega Mewtwo.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Right. I forgot. Have we decided on low 6-B for the birds or full on 6-B?
Once we figure that out, then we'll get to Mega Mewtwo.

It depends.

Which is the exact result of the Lugia calc?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

11.46 teratons

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with all this.

 

[Lina_Shields]

11.46 teratons divided by 3 is about 3.82 teratons. That is Small Country level.

The description for the legendary bird trio should be:

Attack Potency: At least Small Island level, likely Small Country level

• Small Island level comes from an actual calculation in Moltres' profile, where its passive ability releases that much energy.
• Small Country level comes from having 1/3 power of Lugia, given that it took all three legendary birds to match Lugia.

Ho-oh and Lugia should be Country level in terms of AP regardless.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. It's editing time. I got this. Now onto Aiden's case of Mega Mewtwo.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Have you read what I posted above?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You mean with the birds? Yes. I'm changing the profiles. If you're regarding MM2, then no...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

After talking to Lina about this, I have come to the decision that Mega Mewtwo should scale to the Mortality Duo. For one, it fights Zygarde as MM2X in the manga. Two, other than the birds, the only other legendaries to catch in X/Y are High 6-A, and you get the Mewtwonite when you get Mewtwo in game.

 

[Lina_Shields]

The above comment is only valid if the Pokemon Adventures manga is considered canon to the Pokemon verse, as there was a scene where Mega Mewtwo X had blocked and traded blows with Zygarde.

Other than that, The XYZ trio is rated High 6-A due to the Attack Potency revisions that was held before, not 6-A. Thus, Mewtwo should be rated High 6-A as well via power-scaling.

Supported.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I'm fine with rating Mewtwo as High 6-A so long as there are others who are, too.

That would scale to Mew as well, I would assume.