Metroid - Rounding off the downgrades (1/2)

[Armorchompy]

Was originally going to be just one thread but it got a bit long so I had to split it. After the next one there's going to be no more downgrades, probably. Gonna be tackling a few feats from the Metroid mangas today.

Samus & Joey's weapon feats​

Samus Aran's profile claims that "The Ice Beam can freeze a star's surface so it can be mined" and that "Her arsenal includes Power Bombs, which can destroy planets, and her other weapons should be at least somewhat comparable". Both of these feats share the same context: in the plotline of the second half of Samus & Joey, Samus is deprived of her powers, which are turned into ability capsules, and distributed to a bunch of villains for her to defeat and claim back. In both cases, the feat is performed by a villain in possession of the Ice Beam and Power Bomb ability capsules, respectively. That in itself is not particularly relevant, but I thought it should be explained. Let's look at the feats proper.

Power Bomb​

The Power Bomb feat is pretty easily debunked. The bomb with the 5-B statement is quite literally the size of a skyscraper, and is even described as a "Super Power Bomb", both of which clearly put it beyond the level of power of the normal one. The most this proves is that Samus can make, with prep time, a similarly massive bomb with similar power, but it says nothing about the power of her "normal" bombs. The idea that "her other weapons should be at least somewhat comparable" doesn't really apply to this Super Bomb, we know the normal PBs are already some of the strongest weapons in her entire arsenal, and there's no form of UES to ever possibly scale her other attacks to the level of this one, even if we assumed the creation of these Super Bombs took no prep at all and could be made in just one second, which there isn't grounds for given the only one we see is made off-screen.

Ice Beam​

Right after getting the Ice Beam back from Chrysta, an electrical being who had fused with a massive facility built into a star to freeze its surface and harvest its core, which he did, Samus can barely use it to prevent her ship from being destroyed, and that's with Joey's help, which is a far cry from freezing a whole star's surface. One could claim the lack of AOE (which is a stated weakness) is the sole cause of this but that doesn't really change things, if the Ice Beam in Samus' hands (or cannon, rather) cannot replicate that kind of feat then it's not that powerful while she's using it, even if it'd technically be able to perform it under ideal conditions (Having a factory built around it for the express purpose).

Also, there's no UES for Samus, tanking the ice beam would just be cold resistance and even if hers was also capable of freezing an entire star's surface it wouldn't scale back to the AP of her actual beams.

Mother Brain's shields​

Samus' profile says that she's 6-B because she "Can fight against Mother Brain and destroy her shield, made from the same material as that of Zebes' Planetary Shield, which not even standard or high-end tactical missiles capable of destroying countries can break". This makes the feat look much more direct than it is, let me talk you through the logic.

First off, MB's shields are indeed made of the same matter (ZM Manga chapter 7) as Zebes' planetary shield (Ch4), and the claim is that since the Space Pirates felt the need to steal (Ch4) a very extravagant Black Hole weapon (Ch5), it would have withstood an attack from the Dominion's extremely powerful Annihilator missiles (S&J Ch15), which are very explicitly country-busters and that the Space Pirates would have been capable of just buying. Here's the issues with this.

1. We don't know how much time is between S&J (which takes place near the end of the Metroid timeline, after SM/Other M and before Fusion) and the ZM manga, (which takes place years before the first game), chronologically. We do see Joey's flashback when he notices the missile, which means they've existed for a few years at least (He's like a young teenager here and doesn't look incredibly young in the flashback, so at most like, 5-7 years), but the gap between the two manga could be of multiple decades, since (besides the fact that the Metroid timeline is really inconsistent) all the dates we're given in the series are 20X[number], meaning any (reasonable) amount of decades could have passed in-between any of them.
2. We don't know the Space Pirates' thought process. Maybe they didn't know of the missiles, maybe they felt that stealing the Black Hole weapon would be easier than stealing/buying the missiles from the Dominion (we literally have no info on who they stole it from, if they even did steal it), even if it was the more difficult/expensive option they might have thought it'd be worthwhile to do so for any kind of reason (it is a reusable weapon, for starters), we really just have no clue. Worth noting the Chozo had felt the need to reinforce the shield in response to a previous Pirate raid so it's not like they thought it would be fully immune to their "normal" weapons in the first place.
3. This is the most obvious one, Mother Brain's shields don't scale to the planetary shield to begin with. Hers are like, 30 cm thick at best, and while we don't ever get a good look at Zebes' shield, chunks of it are at least visible from space (I can calc it if requested, but it should be obvious that it's way thicker. Worth noting that isn't the ground being sucked up in the first two panels, given we see it only just begin to get attracted in the third). Needless to say, a shield's durability is related to their thickness, and MB's would not be anywhere near the planetary shield's. It's not like we're ever told otherwise, BTW, she just says that they use the same system, not that they're equally durable or whatever.

 

[Deagonx]

Makes sense. I remain open to counterarguments but at a glance these are very straightforward.

 

[SamanPatou]

Agreed thoroughly, it's quite straightforward when put under the right light and given the correct context.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So what are we replacing these ratings with?

 

[JJSliderman]

Personally disagree.

Near the end of the manga Bishop uses his own version of Samus’s plasma beam which he outright describes as her strongest weapon, meaning it should surpass the amped version of the bomb that Blast used (since both are using supposedly amped versions of Samus’ weapons and Bishop is a higher ranked dude). The super power bomb isn’t even an upgrade to the power bomb itself, just the normal morph ball bomb, and they only use the term “super power bomb” one time, and just refer to it as a power bomb or bomb every other point, so I have doubts it’s an amped power bomb at all. It also extends to the ice beam, Samus easily breaks out of it when Chrysta tried to kill her with it.

I guess the argument is that size makes the weapon stronger, but that’s not really proven by the series either. When Samus was increased in size by the space pirates and set against the Federation, their generic troopers were still capable of fending her off and winning.

I guess another argument is that Samus’ weapons were improved, but it seems kind of unlikely there too, when even the space pirates were incapable of upgrading Samus’s beams and, at best, just made inferior versions in the form of the elemental beam trooper scans from Prime 1.

Mother Brain part I can agree with though.

 

[Armorchompy]

Near the end of the manga Bishop uses his own version of Samus’s plasma beam which he outright describes as her strongest weapon, meaning it should surpass the amped version of the bomb that Blast used (since both are using supposedly amped versions of Samus’ weapons and Bishop is a higher ranked dude).

He says it's the strongest ability, that doesn't refer to actual AP, just viability in combat. Obviously making a giant planet-busting bomb isn't useful in 1v1 combat.

Also if the Plasma Beam was also amped nobody would scale to it, only person to ever get hit by it is Knight (who's arguably superior to Varia Suit Samus) and he gets pierced by it.

The super power bomb isn’t even an upgrade to the power bomb itself, just the normal morph ball bomb

They're a package deal, S&J has that. Missile guy also has Super Missiles, and Morph Ball guy also has Screw Attack (for whatever reason).

and they only use the term “super power bomb” one time, and just refer to it as a power bomb or bomb every other point, so I have doubts it’s an amped power bomb at all.

I'm sorry, your argument is "they say it's stronger but only one time"? Them not calling it by its full name every time doesn't change the fact that they specifically refer to it as being special once. By that logic it's just a normal bomb since they don't say it's a power bomb every time.

Also for the record, it literally cannot be a normal bomb (power or not) because Samus is explicitly unable to contain her Power Bombs' AOE in S&J (And Other M too), so she'd be going around exploding planets every time she used one. You know, that and the fact that it's the size of a skyscraper, which normal power bombs are obviously not.

It also extends to the ice beam, Samus easily breaks out of it when Chrysta tried to kill her with it.

As stated in the OP, tanking the Ice Beam is just a cold resistance feat, not actual durability.

I guess the argument is that size makes the weapon stronger, but that’s not really proven by the series either. When Samus was increased in size by the space pirates and set against the Federation, their generic troopers were still capable of fending her off and winning.

They're not generic troopers, they make it pretty clear the FedForce is an elite team that uses really high-end equipment. Anyways, the FedForce size beam actually explicitly amps people so besides being a completely unrelated example it's also wrong. The FedForce beating Samus is either PIS or them just legit scaling to Samus (not that her being amped or not would change that...).

 

[Chariot190]

1 and 3 are obvious and straightforward, but and I was GONNA strangle ship damage ice beam point but it was removed so k, dont need to DISAGREE with it, but add on to why the feat bunk.

No UES means we can't scale the ice beam between weapons. Anyone tanking the ice beam wouldn't have it as durability but rather cold res due to wiki standards, so even if Samus' beam scaled and say, Metroid Prime or Ridley ate it, it wouldn't be durability but just cold res, so it wouldn't loop around and scale, and that's for the same reason why Samus and the ship tanking that ice beam isn't durability, but just cold res. Which is to say, even if the feat is legit and scales, it effects nothing beyond "hey they got good cold res".
Additionally, she does in fact have way worse AOE, it's that very fact she used Joey to scatter her beam shot to expand the AOE of it across the ship to protect them, so even if the temp or potency is the same (it protected them from the core so like shit do be kinda chilly), she lacks the range to replicate such a feat.

Tbh, the main issue based on how they talk and word stuff in that ch seems to be AOE, application and mechanisms, which still kinda makes the feat scaling hard af so...
So yeah, feat done, just think so for diff reasons.

Agree with 1 & 3.

Personally disagree.

Near the end of the manga Bishop uses his own version of Samus’s plasma beam which he outright describes as her strongest weapon, meaning it should surpass the amped version of the bomb that Blast used (since both are using supposedly amped versions of Samus’ weapons and Bishop is a higher ranked dude).

it is her strongest weapon, except,
1. The Bomb is also universally described as her most destructive, as stated in Prime and more.
2. Plasma > Bomb is usually the case, but that doesn't mean a normal plasma shot is above a super-amped bomb, Plasma just has a higher ceiling. Like a super duper omega-prepped Plasma probably is above a super duper omega-prepped bomb, just sucks that neither are the standard.

The super power bomb isn’t even an upgrade to the power bomb itself, just the normal morph ball bomb,

Both actually, the "Bomb" Data capsule contains Power Bomb Data, kinda why she loses Power Bombs.
Theyre talking about Power Bomb here because, well they say so a dozen times?

and they only use the term “super power bomb” one time, and just refer to it as a power bomb or bomb every other point, so I have doubts it’s an amped power bomb at all.

They don't need to say it every time? They say it once. That's enough, they don't expect the reader to not be able to remember 10 pages ago.

It also extends to the ice beam, Samus easily breaks out of it when Chrysta tried to kill her with it.

Cold res and LS only unfortunately.

I guess the argument is that size makes the weapon stronger, but that’s not really proven by the series either. When Samus was increased in size by the space pirates and set against the Federation, their generic troopers were still capable of fending her off and winning.

BAD GAME, also, no, that's def an AOE thing, Diesel even says as much, why the need to scatter the beam that they explicitly note is the only way to do it, if she can just, ya know?

I guess another argument is that Samus’ weapons were improved, but it seems kind of unlikely there too, when even the space pirates were incapable of upgrading Samus’s beams and, at best, just made inferior versions in the form of the elemental beam trooper scans from Prime 1.

I agree, i dont think they were improved, i just think they were applied differently or used via different methods, buuuuut.... A pew pew beam and a huge few thousand KM factory, is def a gap in what it's being used for.

 

[JJSliderman]

He says it's the strongest ability, that doesn't refer to actual AP, just viability in combat. Obviously making a giant planet-busting bomb isn't useful in 1v1 combat.

That seems like extrapolating, strongest means strongest.

Also if the Plasma Beam was also amped nobody would scale to it, only person to ever get hit by it is Knight (who's arguably superior to Varia Suit Samus) and he gets pierced by it.

Even if Knight was superior at the time Samus’s rage power amps arguably let her surpass him at some point, given that she grew 500x stronger from the prototype robots vs Integra. And I’m not even sure the plasma beam was amped since the only other example of someone utilizing Samus’ beam weapons directly only made inferior versions, and that was the space pirates.

Plus Joey tanked the plasma charge shot and Samus should be relative.

They're a package deal, S&J has that. Missile guy also has Super Missiles, and Morph Ball guy also has Screw Attack (for whatever reason).

Yeah, they only amp the base capsule one time. They only go from missiles to super missiles or morph ball to screw attack, not missiles to super missiles to hyper missiles. The power bomb is the stage directly above the normal bomb, and following the train from the other weapons that have their evolutions shown, it would only go up to that level.

I'm sorry, your argument is "they say it's stronger but only one time"? Them not calling it by its full name every time doesn't change the fact that they specifically refer to it as being special once. By that logic it's just a normal bomb since they don't say it's a power bomb every time.

The only thing about it that’s special is that it’s bigger, even though multiple times in the series a smaller fighter ends up defeating a bigger entity and smaller package weapons are deemed as more useful in ending conflicts and overpowering opposition compared to larger, visibly more impressive technology (like Hypermode vs the norion defense canon technology)

Also for the record, it literally cannot be a normal power bomb because Samus is explicitly unable to contain her Power Bombs' AOE in S&J (And Other M too), so she'd be going around exploding planets every time she used one. You know, that and the fact that it's the size of a skyscraper, which normal power bombs are obviously not.

This scan refers to super missiles. I guess the argument is it extends to all her weapons but…I’m not really sure if that’s ever confirmed.

As stated in the OP, tanking the Ice Beam is just a cold resistance feat, not actual durability.

I’m not really understanding how, the attack is still fired with offensive force and intent to kill and not just incapacitate.

They're not generic troopers, they make it pretty clear the FedForce is an elite team that uses really high-end equipment. Anyways, the FedForce size beam actually explicitly amps people so besides being a completely unrelated example it's also wrong. The FedForce beating Samus is either PIS or them just legit scaling to Samus (not that her being amped or not would change that...).

Augment is kind of a vague term and it’s clearly not that much of an augmentation, if these generic troopers can compete against her big or small.

it is her strongest weapon, except,
1. The Bomb is also universally described as her most destructive, as stated in Prime and more.
2. Plasma > Bomb is usually the case, but that doesn't mean a normal plasma shot is above a super-amped bomb, Plasma just has a higher ceiling. Like a super duper omega-prepped Plasma probably is above a super duper omega-prepped bomb, just sucks that neither are the standard.

But a Greed Corp plasma should be relative to a greed Corp bomb by this logic.

Both actually, the "Bomb" Data capsule contains Power Bomb Data, kinda why she loses Power Bombs.
Theyre talking about Power Bomb here because, well they say so a dozen times?

My issue is that if the greed Corp could so massively improve Samus’ bomb technology to the point it’s not even recognizable, why did they need Samus’ bombs to begin with to make the explosive? They could have just used any type of explosive device if they could amp it that much, and Blast somehow managing to improve his weapon more than anyone else despite being a mid tier Greed corp member.

BAD GAME, also, no, that's def an AOE thing, Diesel even says as much, why the need to scatter the beam that they explicitly note is the only way to do it, if she can just, ya know?

Cuz, the internals of the sun are much hotter than the surface? The beam only froze the surface, not the internals.

I agree, i dont think they were improved, i just think they were applied differently or used via different methods, buuuuut.... A pew pew beam and a huge few thousand KM factory, is def a gap in what it's being used for.

That few thousand km factory unleashed its full load on Samus and nothing happened, essentially just a bigger version of what Samus does with the weapon every day. So it’s used for the same purpose and Samus is still relative to it.

 

[Armorchompy]

That seems like extrapolating, strongest means strongest.

Applying basic reading comprehension is not extrapolation.

Even if Knight was superior at the time Samus’s rage power amps arguably let her surpass him at some point, given that she grew 500x stronger from the prototype robots vs Integra. And I’m not even sure the plasma beam was amped since the only other example of someone utilizing Samus’ beam weapons directly only made inferior versions, and that was the space pirates.

She only grew 5x stronger, rest is meaningless.

I never said it was amped btw. Fair chance it is, Varia in Bishop's hands does 100% scale higher than when Samus gets it back (Straight-up stops an attack from Bishop whereas Samus says she'd have been one-shot), but I never said it was and the argument doesn't hinge on it being.

Plus Joey tanked the plasma charge shot and Samus should be relative.

No he didn't, he reflected it with energy manip.

Yeah, they only amp the base capsule one time. They only go from missiles to super missiles or morph ball to screw attack, not missiles to super missiles to hyper missiles. The power bomb is the stage directly above the normal bomb, and following the train from the other weapons that have their evolutions shown, it would only go up to that level.

No they include the upgrades, they're not amping the capsules, nobody ever said they did. When Samus beats the first guy, she gets missiles AND super missiles back, because he had both of them, no "amping" going on.

The only thing about it that’s special is that it’s bigger, even though multiple times in the series a smaller fighter ends up defeating a bigger entity and smaller package weapons are deemed as more useful in ending conflicts and overpowering opposition compared to larger, visibly more impressive technology (like Hypermode vs the norion defense canon technology)

Are we already at the "just making up headcanons" phase of the debate? These are completely different contexts and they do not go against the fact that the bomb is clearly stated and shown to be superior to be a normal power bomb. (Because why the hell else would it be bigger??)

This scan refers to super missiles. I guess the argument is it extends to all her weapons but…I’m not really sure if that’s ever confirmed.

It's the same with her bombs, pretty consistent theme through the early issues.

I’m not really understanding how, the attack is still fired with offensive force and intent to kill and not just incapacitate.

Because it's just temperature, it doesn't actually hit you with the AP.

Augment is kind of a vague term and it’s clearly not that much of an augmentation, if these generic troopers can compete against her big or small.

Again with the "generic troopers", they're using customized mech suits specifically designed to replicate Samus' powers, it's made really clear that they're comparable to her. Also like who cares, this is completely unrelated context and also still an amp so your whole point is null.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Thing is though, the Power Bombs are strongly implied to have the highest energy output of all of Samus' weapons given they consistently are stated and portrayed as the most destructive thing in her arsenal. Wouldn't that in a roundabout way mean they scale to the Ice Beam's raw energy output? Like, there's no outright UES shenanigans with the Power Suit but it does have to provide power for all of its systems individually, and the Ice Beam isn't the most high-energy thing in her arsenal.
That being said, you could very well say that the facility is just capable of giving the Ice Beam more power than the Power Suit in the first place, so it's still kind of an iffy feat given the possibility of it being amped. Overall, I'm kinda neutral on keeping it or not. The Power Bomb though I definitely agree with your reasoning.

 

[Chariot190]

But a Greed Corp plasma should be relative to a greed Corp bomb by this logic.

?????????
What?
Greed Corp Power Bomb was a SUPER power bomb. Bishop wasnt using a SUPER plasma beam?
The power bomb example has a bunch of stuff going into it that makes it not standard.

My issue is that if the greed Corp could so massively improve Samus’ bomb technology to the point it’s not even recognizable, why did they need Samus’ bombs to begin with to make the explosive?

Uses the Data from her abilities? Metroid fucky like that, and btw, im not even saying isnt capable of that either, but it's def not her standard utility with it, **** give her prep and she probably COULD whip out a super power bomb, that doesnt change the fact normal PB =/= SPB.

They could have just used any type of explosive device if they could amp it that much, and Blast somehow managing to improve his weapon more than anyone else despite being a mid tier Greed corp member.

Context?
He was threatening to blow up a planet, had prep, and was giving them an ultimatum.

Ball dude was just using it, Varia dude was just using it for dura and acid, ice beam dude pumped that shit through a 10000km facility for a super niche purpose, missile dude was just using it, Bishop was just using plasma as a gun, etc.

Cuz, the internals of the sun are much hotter than the surface? The beam only froze the surface, not the internals.

Yeah no i agree, but even the facility was keeping a much larger area cooler, because, well built for that and encompassing thousands of km?

That few thousand km factory unleashed its full load on Samus and nothing happened, essentially just a bigger version of what Samus does with the weapon every day.

That do be the issue yes.

So it’s used for the same purpose and Samus is still relative to it.

Temp def is, but cold feats and scaling be fucky like that, even if her ice beam and its both say, capable of dropping stuff to the same temp, the larger AOE is WHY it got higher AP.

Say a dude freezes 1m of water, and another dude freezes 0.1m of water, both ice and attacks can drop the water by the same temp, but one is 9-A and another 9-B, simply due to AOE. Just how the math works man.

 

[Chariot190]

Thing is though, the Power Bombs are strongly implied to have the highest energy output of all of Samus' weapons given they consistently are stated and portrayed as the most destructive thing in her arsenal. Wouldn't that in a roundabout way mean they scale to the Ice Beam's raw energy output? Like, there's no outright UES shenanigans with the Power Suit but it does have to provide power for all of its systems individually, and the Ice Beam isn't the most high-energy thing in her arsenal.

Theyre stated most destructive, but it can vary greatly between games (like Prime says that, and also says lmao 10m AOE).

No, to be perfectly blunt, our freezing calcs kinda wack, freezing stuff is less energy, and more like the literal opposite, it's just, well ya know, energy gotta be going somewhere. Temp calcs as a whole super wacky actually ngl.

But nah, roundabout anything ain't good, unless they state it directly, that won't work, all this extrapolation shit is why we downgrading in the 1st place, atm i just want us to set up a foundation without any "should be, could be, maybe" bullshit

That being said, you could very well say that the facility is just capable of giving the Ice Beam more power than the Power Suit in the first place, so it's still kind of an iffy feat given the possibility of it being amped. Overall, I'm kinda neutral on keeping it or not. The Power Bomb though I definitely agree with your reasoning.

Tbh, i dont agree with that, the dude words it as if the capsule is why he could make it in the first place.
Buuuut.... AOE, a fuckass facility, Samus evidently not being able to, the fact freezing feats and tanking it wouldn't scale to dura or other weapons, etc all kinda **** that up.

 

[Yasuda_144]

But nah, roundabout anything ain't good, unless they state it directly, that won't work, all this extrapolation shit is why we downgrading in the 1st place, atm i just want us to set up a foundation without any "should be, could be, maybe" bullshit

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. It is kind of a weird thing where realistically the Ice Beam just wouldn't work anything like it does in the games in the first place (without even getting into how apparently cold temperatures make you immune to gravity in the 2D titles).

Tbh, i dont agree with that, the dude words it as if the capsule is why he could make it in the first place.
Buuuut.... AOE, a fuckass facility, Samus evidently not being able to, the fact freezing feats and tanking it wouldn't scale to dura or other weapons, etc all kinda **** that up.

Yeah, but there could be a number of factors there besides raw power, and the fact that Samus is depicted as unable to replicate the exact same feat seems to point to that, plus the fact that the Super Power Bomb was also only possible with the capsule yet blatantly stated to be beyond a regular Power Bomb.

 

[JJSliderman]

Applying basic reading comprehension is not extrapolation.

What part of it is basic reading comprehension to say that the self-proclaimed “strongest weapon” is…
The strongest weapon, aka the most powerful? That’s usually what strongest means.

She only grew 5x stronger, rest is meaningless.

Integra was 500x above previous prototypes Samus went even with, according to volume 3 chapter 14. Although maybe someone could calc Bishop tanking the ultra void obliteration attack.

I never said it was amped btw. Fair chance it is, Varia in Bishop's hands does 100% scale higher than when Samus gets it back (Straight-up stops an attack from Bishop whereas Samus says she'd have been one-shot), but I never said it was and the argument doesn't hinge on it being.

The plasma beam didn’t stop the attack, it was the Varia suit.

No he didn't, he reflected it with energy manip.

Fair enough.

No they include the upgrades, they're not amping the capsules, nobody ever said they did. When Samus beats the first guy, she gets missiles AND super missiles back, because he had both of them, no "amping" going on.

If nothing is being amped then Samus just scales.

Are we already at the "just making up headcanons" phase of the debate? These are completely different contexts and they do not go against the fact that the bomb is clearly stated and shown to be superior to be a normal power bomb. (Because why the hell else would it be bigger??)

More AOE, that was the case for the ice beam.

Because it's just temperature, it doesn't actually hit you with the AP.

But the ice beam can be used to damage enemies and has been doing so since, Metroid 2.

Again with the "generic troopers", they're using customized mech suits specifically designed to replicate Samus' powers, it's made really clear that they're comparable to her. Also like who cares, this is completely unrelated context and also still an amp so your whole point is null.

It’s not portrayed as an amp that’s millions of times above normal capabilities. And the only indication the super power bomb is stronger is that it’s bigger, which isn’t an end all-be all.

?????????
What?
Greed Corp Power Bomb was a SUPER power bomb. Bishop wasnt using a SUPER plasma beam?
The power bomb example has a bunch of stuff going into it that makes it not standard.

And by bunch of stuff it means just being bigger and having a slightly more impressive name. Blast never really saw the power bomb in action to say that he massively improved it definitively with his changes.

Uses the Data from her abilities? Metroid fucky like that, and btw, im not even saying isnt capable of that either, but it's def not her standard utility with it, **** give her prep and she probably COULD whip out a super power bomb, that doesnt change the fact normal PB =/= SPB.

The ability in this case is just making a big boom, which has been established in the manga as smthn a lot of factions can do, like with the bunker buster. If Samus’s bombs aren’t inherently planet then they could have just, taken a bunker buster and achieve a similar effect. Samus’ bombs are obviously critical in the design process, and the only reason is for them to be comparable power.

Context?
He was threatening to blow up a planet, had prep, and was giving them an ultimatum.

Ball dude was just using it, Varia dude was just using it for dura and acid, ice beam dude pumped that shit through a 10000km facility for a super niche purpose, missile dude was just using it, Bishop was just using plasma as a gun, etc.

They all had prep and Blast was also just “using it”, and is also a lower tier Corp member so it doesn’t make sense he gets much better upgrades than Bishop.

Yeah no i agree, but even the facility was keeping a much larger area cooler, because, well built for that and encompassing thousands of km?

If you’re arguing that the ice beam wasn’t amped, I fail to see what the facility would do to make Samus’s beam stronger. Sure, the facility allows it to be spread around more, but it’s still the same beam. And Samus ultimately did succeed at freezing the sun, just in a smaller radius.

That do be the issue yes.

Temp def is, but cold feats and scaling be fucky like that, even if her ice beam and its both say, capable of dropping stuff to the same temp, the larger AOE is WHY it got higher AP.

Say a dude freezes 1m of water, and another dude freezes 0.1m of water, both ice and attacks can drop the water by the same temp, but one is 9-A and another 9-B, simply due to AOE. Just how the math works man.

Except it’s the exact same beam in both cases, just the second time it was more focused on a smaller point. Nothing says that the second use of the beam on Samus was way weaker or anything.

 

[Chariot190]

And by bunch of stuff it means just being bigger and having a slightly more impressive name. Blast never really saw the power bomb in action to say that he massively improved it definitively with his changes.

Yeah know what, just gonna be blunt here, no offense, but you're being obtuse and wasting time.

It being literally 200x bigger, is proof it isn't standard.
And "slightly mo-", quick question, WHY do you think it has a different name with a superior prefix? That was rhetorical, it's because it's better than the standard.

He doesn't need to see it in action, ignoring the fact he 100% did because he knows full well what they do and he's had it for who knows how long at that, a few weeks i'd wager, that doesn't change the fact he has the Capsule and goes "hey btw, this one is a SUPER PB".

it's different, hard confirmed, we can not scale normal PB's to it because they differ and we have no idea how much.

Just for an idea tho, say the size is an indication. A normal PB would be over 4,000,000x weaker than it going off size, of course we have no way to know if the AP scales like that so that's useless but just food for thought.

Like my dude, feat's donezo, the moment he said it was a super one made saying normal PB's the same outright impossible.

The ability in this case is just making a big boom, which has been established in the manga as smthn a lot of factions can do, like with the bunker buster.

A high-end COUNTRY busting missile is gonna blow up a planet, how?

If Samus’s bombs aren’t inherently planet then they could have just, taken a bunker buster and achieve a similar effect. Samus’ bombs are obviously critical in the design process, and the only reason is for them to be comparable power.

Or maybe that ain't how bombs work and they can't just turn a dial and turn a 6-B nuke into a 5-B nuke. Samus' PB's, apparently, given that's what happened, have such a function, damn burd magic at it again, so what's the argument?

Samus' PB's Data enables one to make up suped up giga bombs, so what? That's literally what happened idk what to tell ya man.

They all had prep and Blast was also just “using it”, and is also a lower tier Corp member so it doesn’t make sense he gets much better upgrades than Bishop.

What? No? Dude this isn't an argument, im sure they ALL could have workshopped something if they wanted. They didn't, Blast was using the PB to make a super ultra bomb to blow up a planet, Bishop was using it for a rapid-fire energy weapon on the fly. That isn't prep, that's like saying someone who spent a week making a pipe bomb and is 9-A with it is bad because this other dude is using an AK so the AK should be 9-A because he also had time and just so happens to be his boss for completely unrelated reasons.

If you’re arguing that the ice beam wasn’t amped, I fail to see what the facility would do to make Samus’s beam stronger.

AOE dog, it covers more ground.

Sure, the facility allows it to be spread around more, but it’s still the same beam. And Samus ultimately did succeed at freezing the sun, just in a smaller radius.

Which is why it's lower? That do be how freezing calcs work?

Except it’s the exact same beam in both cases, just the second time it was more focused on a smaller point. Nothing says that the second use of the beam on Samus was way weaker or anything.

My dude, it being focused and not 1000000km is why
Youre thinking about this wrong.

Say Samus' ice beam is -10000 degrees (not how temps and freezing work but roll with me here), and the facility is also -10000 degrees, cool, they both the same coldness, both the same potency, buuut, Samus' covers like 2m, while bro covers 10000000000m, what do you think is gonna get higher? Theyre both the same, but the AOE directly ties into the actual calculated joule value.

Edit: Wait do you mean when she was hit by it? Yeah, that's fine, same thing, the problem tho, is that's cold res, not dura (so yeah, she has insane cold res and can withstand temps so cold that it can freeze over a sun), just how that type of stuff works. Hell it's why MGS is getting nerfed too, Volgin's elemental stuff being tanked doesn't translate to joules/durability but temp res. Sucks yeah but rules be rules.

 

[Chariot190]

someone could calc Bishop tanking the ultra void obliteration attack.

We did, also was Knight, 7-C, 7-A with KE.

 

[Deagonx]

If regular plasma beams were comparable to this one of a kind super sized power bomb that Samus wasn't even responsible for, why would everyone be so shocked about it?

The villain in this case appears to be giving an ultimatum using the threat of this giant bomb. It's not possible to reconcile that with the belief that somehow all that's really happening there is Samus is being threatened with a level of power she wields basically all the time casually.

It's just common sense. I feel like so many of these threads have these long drawn out tedious arguments for no reason.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah know what, just gonna be blunt here, no offense, but you're being obtuse and wasting time.

It being literally 200x bigger, is proof it isn't standard.
And "slightly mo-", quick question, WHY do you think it has a different name with a superior prefix? That was rhetorical, it's because it's better than the standard.

Idk, why are super missiles called super when they’re only 3-5x the power of a regular missile. Super is kind of a vague term and you can’t use that alone to say that it’s millions of X above a standard variant.

He doesn't need to see it in action, ignoring the fact he 100% did because he knows full well what they do and he's had it for who knows how long at that, a few weeks i'd wager, that doesn't change the fact he has the Capsule and goes "hey btw, this one is a SUPER PB".

At no point are we told this power bomb is stronger than a normal power bomb, just bigger and with a different name. Which, bigger weapons are not always considered as superior solutions to problems compared to smaller ones in this franchise. Gorea is a being who could threaten the entire universe and it’s not much bigger than Samus.

it's different, hard confirmed, we can not scale normal PB's to it because they differ and we have no idea how much.

If we have no idea then, why assume this power bomb is millions of X stronger than Samus’ if it’s powered by her bomb capsule, and getting all of its destructive potential from said capsule?

Just for an idea tho, say the size is an indication. A normal PB would be over 4,000,000x weaker than it going off size, of course we have no way to know if the AP scales like that so that's useless but just food for thought.

We’re not given any other indication of why this bomb might be above a normal power bomb, so size comparisons are probably the most apt way to make a divide, if size is the most important metric here.

A high-end COUNTRY busting missile is gonna blow up a planet, how?

Or maybe that ain't how bombs work and they can't just turn a dial and turn a 6-B nuke into a 5-B nuke. Samus' PB's, apparently, given that's what happened, have such a function, damn burd magic at it again, so what's the argument?

So you’re saying Samus can at any point dial up the bombs to reach planetary levels, like at that point she should still be scaling to them anyway, if she can focus those power bombs into a concentrated area to prevent all damage and instead just heal her with Crystal flash.

What? No? Dude this isn't an argument, im sure they ALL could have workshopped something if they wanted. They didn't, Blast was using the PB to make a super ultra bomb to blow up a planet, Bishop was using it for a rapid-fire energy weapon on the fly. That isn't prep, that's like saying someone who spent a week making a pipe bomb and is 9-A with it is bad because this other dude is using an AK so the AK should be 9-A because he also had time and just so happens to be his boss for completely unrelated reasons.

It’s not unrelated, as the boss of the organization and the one using the strongest weapon out of the bunch by their own admission, Bishop should be using the strongest weapon out of the greed corps. He said

AOE dog, it covers more ground.

Which is why it's lower? That do be how freezing calcs work?

My dude, it being focused and not 1000000km is why
Youre thinking about this wrong.

But it’s literally the exact same attack? Maybe I am just misunderstanding but I don’t get why the same entity using the same weapon with the same intent of full power would only be high 6-A in one version. If anything, considering it’s trying to kill Samus it should be putting more power into it, because Samus is gonna kill Chrysta otherwise.

If regular plasma beams were comparable to this one of a kind super sized power bomb that Samus wasn't even responsible for, why would everyone be so shocked about it?

The super sized power bomb is literally using Samus’s technology to fuel itself and perform all of its destructive potential, and Samus’s bombs have always been portrayed as shocking in potency, to the point their destructive potential was integrated into the Other M plotline. Plus, the plasma beam is stated to be the strongest of Samus’s stolen abilities directly, and the stolen abilities would include the power bomb.

The villain in this case appears to be giving an ultimatum using the threat of this giant bomb. It's not possible to reconcile that with the belief that somehow all that's really happening there is Samus is being threatened with a level of power she wields basically all the time casually.

If she’s wielding this power all the time then…her power bombs are still planetary. I don’t get the point here.

 

[Deagonx]

You didn't even address my point. Why is the Super power bomb necessary if everything she does is that powerful anyways? Why is everyone scared of what amounts to a normal casual attack from Samus? Why does the villain feel that she can leverage the thread of the SPB (which is, on your view, equivalent to a normal blast from her plasma cannon) to threaten an ultimatum?

Make that scene make sense with the view that the SPB is just Samus' normal attack power.

 

[JJSliderman]

You didn't even address my point. Why is the Super power bomb necessary if everything she does is that powerful anyways? Why is everyone scared of what amounts to a normal casual attack from Samus? Why does the villain feel that she can leverage the thread of the SPB (which is, on your view, equivalent to a normal blast from her plasma cannon) to threaten an ultimatum?

Make that scene make sense with the view that the SPB is just Samus' normal attack power.

They’re scared because it’s not being controlled and is just a big planet busting attack, meanwhile Samus can control power bombs as shown by her implanting them in her beam combos and healing techniques to minimize damage.

Also like, looking at the panels, he straight up armed the super bomb using Samus’s capsule directly. The thing was just gonna sit there and do nothing until the bomb capsule allowed it to reach planet busting levels. That just makes me feel even more sure that the capsule is providing the bulk of the effort.

Him leveraging an ultimatum was primarily against the relatively weak gremlin creatures. Yeah, he did say that he was gonna try to blow up Samus, but Samus never said it would easily kill her, or anything. She was way more afraid of Knight killing her than the bomb.

 

[Deagonx]

It's very obvious that this is not what samus is normally capable of using that capsule, which is why the villain is bragging about it's destructive capacity, why no one knows what it is at first and why everyone is so scared of it, and why it's so threatening.

he did say that he was gonna try to blow up Samus, but Samus never said it would easily kill her, or anything.

He said Samus would become space dust and "wipe her off the face of the planet" using the bomb. The proposal that this is meant to be understood as no more threatening than a guy who could, idk, deflect a plasma beam is completely incompatible with the storytelling here. It's not a reasonable argument at all.

 

[Chariot190]

If regular plasma beams were comparable to this one of a kind super sized power bomb that Samus wasn't even responsible for, why would everyone be so shocked about it?

They're arguing it's because they have her powers, which, they do, that's the plot, Samus got jumped and her power capsules were removed from her and given to dudes.

So the 5-B bomb is a direct byproduct of her capabilities theyre just ignoring all the caveats in play that make it so while it's her power, it isn't apart of her standard kit.

The villain in this case appears to be giving an ultimatum using the threat of this giant bomb. It's not possible to reconcile that with the belief that somehow all that's really happening there is Samus is being threatened with a level of power she wields basically all the time casually.

Hell, she's tanked a standard Power Bomb in Fusion (Enemy literally using the suit and powers from the manga), and in the most recent game, she goes "oof" and walks it off, not the best threat to clarify im agreeing with you

Idk, why are super missiles called super when they’re only 3-5x the power of a regular missile.

You LITERALLY just gave an example of a Super prefix denoting greater power. Argument OVER.

Super is kind of a vague term and you can’t use that alone to say that it’s millions of X above a standard variant.

No? Super means better, as established by you 80 pixels above.
Did i say it was millions? No. But judging by the fact it's that much bigger.... it would be.

And the missile example? Super Missles 3-5x better, despite only being like 1.2x larger, funny huh?

Either way, we don't need an exact value, it's the same shit as Emperor ing, Phaaze, etc, we have NO idea how big the gap is, just that the 5-B thing > some unknown but notable value above standard, so we can't scale or even downscale.

At no point are we told this power bomb is stronger than a normal power bomb, just bigger and with a different name.

Dude, the 200x bigger power bomb they specify that's a SUPER variant, having a different name BECAUSE it's better, as that's what you just proved, as if that wasn't evident.

That's also used to kill Samus, who can tank normal PB's just fine?

Which, bigger weapons are not always considered as superior solutions to problems compared to smaller ones in this franchise. Gorea is a being who could threaten the entire universe and it’s not much bigger than Samus.

Holy false equivalence Batman. i bet a Gorea that's 400000x bigger than normal would kick normal Gorea's ass ngl.

If we have no idea then, why assume this power bomb is millions of X stronger than Samus’ if it’s powered by her bomb capsule, and getting all of its destructive potential from said capsule?

Why assume it's the same? We KNOW it isn't, we know there's a gap, and goddamn it's literally a million times bigger, in what world do we scale them the same over just scaling them seperately? There's no way to scale them together dude.

We’re not given any other indication of why this bomb might be above a normal power bomb, so size comparisons are probably the most apt way to make a divide, if size is the most important metric here.

"Super Power Bomb"; a prefix used to denote superiority, true in verse as Super is used to denote better and stronger variants.
"4000000x bigger"; literally goddamn.

So you’re saying Samus can at any point dial up the bombs to reach planetary levels, like at that point she should still be scaling to them anyway,

No because it'd be a suicide tactic? She always uses standard ones, not super.

if she can focus those power bombs into a concentrated area

she CANT tho, it's a plot point in S&J AND Other M that she can't focus the energy of them.

to prevent all damage and instead just heal her with Crystal flash.

That's normal PB's not SPB's. Also that isn't how Crystal Flash works?

It’s not unrelated, as the boss of the organization and the one using the strongest weapon out of the bunch by their own admission, Bishop should be using the strongest weapon out of the greed corps. He said

Don't care, and it is. Already went through this, Plasma > PB, Plasma isn't inherently above every form of PB though, that shit isn't static.

im sure if bishop charged up a shot for a week it'd be just as strong, who knows, dont care, point is, we can't assume standard Plasma > SPB.

But it’s literally the exact same attack? Maybe I am just misunderstanding but I don’t get why the same entity using the same weapon with the same intent of full power would only be high 6-A in one version.

Dude, TANKING it, is only cold res, not dura, that's just how cold feats work.

If anything, considering it’s trying to kill Samus it should be putting more power into it, because Samus is gonna kill Chrysta otherwise.

Dont matter.

The super sized power bomb is literally using Samus’s technology to fuel itself and perform all of its destructive potential,

So? As said, im sure she can make a SPB too if she wanted to kill herself idk, but, none of that changes how SPB=/=PB.

and Samus’s bombs have always been portrayed as shocking in potency, to the point their destructive potential was integrated into the Other M plotline.

yeah, exactly, she can't limit them or focus them, pretty blatant PB=/=SPB if they can't be limited but one has an AOE as big as a planet.

Plus, the plasma beam is stated to be the strongest of Samus’s stolen abilities directly, and the stolen abilities would include the power bomb.

Yeah, in a vacuum, Plasma > PB. And hell, in the same scene with Bishop we see Charged Plasma >>>> Plasma. This shit isn't stactic.

If she’s wielding this power all the time then…her power bombs are still planetary. I don’t get the point here.

They like, aren't tho?

 

[JJSliderman]

It's very obvious that this is not what samus is normally capable of using that capsule, which is why the villain is bragging about it's destructive capacity, why no one knows what it is at first and why everyone is so scared of it, and why it's so threatening.

It’s not “very obvious” though, considering the villain just straight up used Samus’s capsule to turn a giant Crystal into a planet busting power bomb. And like, yeah obviously a planet busting bomb is threatening if someone is actually intending to destroy planets with it, unlike Samus who uses it primarily for more focused damage.

He said Samus would become space dust and "wipe her off the face of the planet" using the bomb. The proposal that this is meant to be understood as no more threatening than a guy who could, idk, deflect a plasma beam is completely incompatible with the storytelling here. It's not a reasonable argument at all.

Yeah, and Samus ultimately treated it not that seriously. We see what happens when Samus is facing threats she knows can kill her later in the story, like Knight, and this bomb scare is not one of those. And honestly there is something in the manga that Samus tanks that’s even above this power bomb, which I’ll prolly talk about in some other thread after Armor finishes all of his.

You LITERALLY just gave an example of a Super prefix denoting greater power. Argument OVER.

A greater power that would land non-super weapons as 3-5x weaker, so still small planet.

No? Super means better, as established by you 80 pixels above.
Did i say it was millions? No. But judging by the fact it's that much bigger.... it would be.

And the missile example? Super Missles 3-5x better, despite only being like 1.2x larger, funny huh?

Either way, we don't need an exact value, it's the same shit as Emperor ing, Phaaze, etc, we have NO idea how big the gap is, just that the 5-B thing > some unknown but notable value above standard, so we can't scale or even downscale.

The notable value, if we’re going by the precedent set in other entries, is 3-5x. Idk why it’s assumed to be an astronomically larger value besides just being bigger, even though the capsule could spread its energy across and armed the entire device with its power so size and range of the bomb isn’t that important.

Holy false equivalence Batman. i bet a Gorea that's 400000x bigger than normal would kick normal Gorea's ass ngl.

Yeah, like how a giant Samus was still in the ballpark of being defeatable by marines who are, at best, comparable to a normal size Samus.

Why assume it's the same? We KNOW it isn't, we know there's a gap, and goddamn it's literally a million times bigger, in what world do we scale them the same over just scaling them seperately? There's no way to scale them together dude.

Because we straight up KNOW that the bomb only reached planetary because of Samus’s capsule, without that capsule which was used IN the chapter on the bomb, nothing would happen.

"Super Power Bomb"; a prefix used to denote superiority, true in verse as Super is used to denote better and stronger variants.
"4000000x bigger"; literally goddamn.

Yeah; better variants, not millions of X better. Super missiles are literally the only quantifiable metric of how much better a “super” weapon is.

No because it'd be a suicide tactic? She always uses standard ones, not super.

Again where does Samus ever state she believes the SPB would kill her, cuz I couldn’t find it.

she CANT tho, it's a plot point in S&J AND Other M that she can't focus the energy of them.

Well, clearly she can focus them because Super Metroid exists and she focused them there.

That's normal PB's not SPB's. Also that isn't how Crystal Flash works?

Crystal Flash is converting the destructive power of the power bomb into a pure energy restoration technique, which is why it drains power bomb ammo and does no damage. Plus, she can just use power bomb ammo in beam charge combos with less AOE, so she can definitely control the spread (and it arguably does more damage than power bombs raw)

Don't care, and it is. Already went through this, Plasma > PB, Plasma isn't inherently above every form of PB though, that shit isn't static.

But it should be above the capsule that greed used to create a super power bomb by tapping an inert device.

Dude, TANKING it, is only cold res, not dura, that's just how cold feats work.

Dont matter.

But, we see that enemies can die from too many ice beam shots, just like any other beam weapon. Even when they unfreeze they still have taken that damage, so it can’t just be cold resistance.

So? As said, im sure she can make a SPB too if she wanted to kill herself idk, but, none of that changes how SPB=/=PB.

yeah, exactly, she can't limit them or focus them, pretty blatant PB=/=SPB if they can't be limited but one has an AOE as big as a planet.

Except Samus never stated at any point she believed the super power bomb would kill her.

Yeah, in a vacuum, Plasma > PB. And hell, in the same scene with Bishop we see Charged Plasma >>>> Plasma. This shit isn't stactic.

Yeah, and we have two villains who both have Samus technology, except one is stated as blatantly superior to another in strength, to the point they’re using the outright strongest of Samus’ abilities, including the ability that turned a Crystal into a planet busting power bomb by tapping said Crystal with the capsule.

They like, aren't tho?

You straight up said that Samus’s capsule isn’t being amped, that capsule was directly used to amplify Blast’s Crystal into the super power bomb.

 

[Armorchompy]

God there's so much whataboutisms in Slider's arguments all to ignore the most obvious evidence: There's strong visual implication and verbal implication that the bomb is stronger than the normal sort and zero implication of the opposite. The super power bomb is stronger, end of story. If no actual arguments are going to be made I don't think it's worth to engage with them.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s not “very obvious” though, considering the villain just straight up used Samus’s capsule to turn a giant Crystal into a planet busting power bomb. And like, yeah obviously a planet busting bomb is threatening if someone is actually intending to destroy planets with it, unlike Samus who uses it primarily for more focused damage.

So we agree then that this is many times more powerful than the bombs Samus uses. Great.

 

[Chariot190]

A greater power that would land non-super weapons as 3-5x weaker, so still small planet.

Not how this works, why are you assuming the multiplier the same? The multiplier ain't even the same for SupM!
Hence why ya keep saying 3-5x. Super just denotes it's better, how much better, we don't know? Just that it is. So we can't treat them the same or scale, sucks.

The notable value, if we’re going by the precedent set in other entries, is 3-5x.

Not how this works, could be 2x, could be 200000000x, they don't say, we just know it's better. But because we don't know, we can't scale them.

Idk why it’s assumed to be an astronomically larger value besides just being bigger,

The fact it's painted as being able to flatout kill her? So 3-5x already out of the question as she can tank normal PB's just fine, and can even withstand the gap between normal and SM's, aka, a 3-5x gap.

Also the fact that it's bigger, like you realize it's that big for good reason yeah?

even though the capsule could spread its energy across and armed the entire device with its power so size and range of the bomb isn’t that important.

Yeah it is? More area and volume to empower and spread across? Why do you think bombs irl stronger the bigger they are? More shit in them.

AND, we know Samus' standard PB's don't contain that same power because she explicitly can't restrict the AOE, if they had the same power, the AOE would be as big as a planet as we see when the SPB blows up.

Yeah, like how a giant Samus was still in the ballpark of being defeatable by marines who are, at best, comparable to a normal size Samus.

False equivalence, Samus ain't a bomb. And yeah a joint effort over time was able to wear her down and she was back up 5 seconds later, wowza.

Because we straight up KNOW that the bomb only reached planetary because of Samus’s capsule, without that capsule which was used IN the chapter on the bomb, nothing would happen.

So? What's up with you and failing to tackle any of the issues, yeah dude, we know her capsule did it, and? SPB=/=PB. Doesnt matter if her capsule did it because Samus doesn't use SPB's (gee wonder why) but the standard.

Yeah; better variants, not millions of X better. Super missiles are literally the only quantifiable metric of how much better a “super” weapon is.

So? And even they aren't static, and only negligibly different in volume from a normal.
And here we have a literal 4000000x larger PB denoted as super, and you're arguing "nah they same ballpark", really dude?

You said yourself we don't know the difference, but now you're arguing "must be 3-5x", dude, it's whatever it WANTS to be, we don't know, we just know it's better, so it is, and we have nothing to compare or scale between, so they just dont.

Again where does Samus ever state she believes the SPB would kill her, cuz I couldn’t find it.

Media literacy man, why do you think the dude hammered down it'd kill her?

Like, are you assuming he has absolutely zero intel on Samus? Because that'd be wrong, he knew who Samus was at a glance, so he's obviously been briefed, and no, Samus isn't famous, her name well known, but what she looks like or even who she is isn't well known, as established 2 chapters before this.
And like, bro's ally has Samus' more durable suit power? And his boss can mog Power Suit Samus?

Do you really think he has NO idea what she might be capable of enduring? The very fact he knowns what she looks like is proof he's been briefed. buuuuuuuuut....

That's all yapping, the actual answer would be because the manga says as much a bunch and an author wouldn't just lie like that? Hence, media.

Well, clearly she can focus them because Super Metroid exists and she focused them there.

No? Why are you ignoring hard, explicit, stated plot points? She can't focus them, they have a fixed range, you're wrong, stop ignoring shit and making stuff up.

Crystal Flash is converting the destructive power of the power bomb into a pure energy restoration technique, which is why it drains power bomb ammo and does no damage.

Yeah, to refill her energy tanks? She isnt tanking shit, and, again, normal Power Bomb.

Do you not get that, Power Bombs, do not matter, they do not scale to the Super Power Bomb. This argument is an actual waste of time.
also in blood of the chozo, old burd says the crystal flash could instantly kill her if she isnt omega careful.

Plus, she can just use power bomb ammo in beam charge combos with less AOE, so she can definitely control the spread (and it arguably does more damage than power bombs raw)

Except, wrong, she's using the ammo, in a BEAM combo. That, is not a Power Bomb blast.
And, again, not a SPB? Actually, she can do whatever the hell she wants with a normal PB, she can't control the blast AOE, hard fact, and a normal PB isnt a SPB. Anything else doesnt matter.

But it should be above the capsule that greed used to create a super power bomb by tapping an inert device.

"Should", why is all your arguments like this, every time?
And dog, what'd ya think that device is for? For show?

But, we see that enemies can die from too many ice beam shots, just like any other beam weapon.

Yeah, reminder being flash frozen like 5 times tends to kill you

Even when they unfreeze they still have taken that damage, so it can’t just be cold resistance.

Uh, being frozen does damage? Right now, if you were frozen solid, then unthawed, you'd think you'd be fine? Yeah maybe, ignoring every cell in your body exploding.

Dude, hate to break it to you, but you can't argue this, this isnt us going "erm actually", it's wiki rules, tanking cold stuff and being frozen not dura by itself.

And^2, the AP calc is for the cold so any magical damage means nothing even if that was true.
also pretty sure, in gameplay, it's because it's stacked onto normal beam and stuff

Except Samus never stated at any point she believed the super power bomb would kill her.

i feel like sometimes we forget we're reading a manga where they say stuff for an expressive purpose unlike irl.

Yeah, and we have two villains who both have Samus technology, except one is stated as blatantly superior to another in strength,

Hol up, who said Bishop was stronger than anyone innately? He isnt a leader due to strength, he's one because he glazes Greed and is smart, Knight, would be there because he's strong.

to the point they’re using the outright strongest of Samus’ abilities, including the ability that turned a Crystal into a planet busting power bomb by tapping said Crystal with the capsule.

Yeah so, not gonna repeat what ive said 5 times now, kinda ridiculous ngl.

You straight up said that Samus’s capsule isn’t being amped, that capsule was directly used to amplify Blast’s Crystal into the super power bomb.

"Super", yuh huh, ya know what else I said? Application and mechanisms vary.
Just because the Capsule isn't being amped, doesn't mean what it's doing is beyond what Samus uses it for normally. Wanna say she can make a SPB? Sure, fine, idc, but she never does so it isnt standard, and her normal PBs don't scale given they're literally not the same thing.

Anyway, you've had enough posts now, you're just repeating the same stuff and not understanding how freeze feats/tanking work and wacky false equivalences or shit like "it's just a different name", actual waste of my time. Not replying to you further unless you give hard evidence.

 

[JJSliderman]

Not how this works, why are you assuming the multiplier the same? The multiplier ain't even the same for SupM!
Hence why ya keep saying 3-5x. Super just denotes it's better, how much better, we don't know? Just that it is. So we can't treat them the same or scale, sucks.

Not how this works, could be 2x, could be 200000000x, they don't say, we just know it's better. But because we don't know, we can't scale them.

Yeah, except we can tell it’s not a significant gap because Samus’s bomb capsule is able to fully energize every part of the bomb. They don’t even really clarify what Blast did to make his bomb stronger in terms of inner mechanisms, so all I can look at is the size. And even though Blasts’ bomb is much bigger, Samus’ capsule energy still could spread throughout and energize the whole thing to maximum power, seeing as later panels show the capsule’s energy (symbolized by the lines throughout the bomb) reach down to the bottom. Even when the bomb is converted while maintaining its structure, Samus is able to partially power the bomb with her own beam weapons to rocket it into space.

The fact it's painted as being able to flatout kill her? So 3-5x already out of the question as she can tank normal PB's just fine, and can even withstand the gap between normal and SM's, aka, a 3-5x gap.

It’s not, all we have is Blast saying so. If this was a narrator saying it with an unbiased perspective that would be one thing, obviously Blast is gonna gas up his own bomb. There is no unbiased source saying the bomb would kill Samus.

Also the fact that it's bigger, like you realize it's that big for good reason yeah?

Yeah it is? More area and volume to empower and spread across? Why do you think bombs irl stronger the bigger they are? More shit in them.

AND, we know Samus' standard PB's don't contain that same power because she explicitly can't restrict the AOE, if they had the same power, the AOE would be as big as a planet as we see when the SPB blows up.

I mean that’s clearly not true when she can focus the AOE when she implants a power bomb’s worth of energy into beams, and achieves a significantly smaller radius of attack.

False equivalence, Samus ain't a bomb. And yeah a joint effort over time was able to wear her down and she was back up 5 seconds later, wowza.

It’s still going off the idea of “biggerer is betterer”, when clearly the gap is not that significant, and it is almost never significant when it comes to bigger versions of existing entities.

So? What's up with you and failing to tackle any of the issues, yeah dude, we know her capsule did it, and? SPB=/=PB. Doesnt matter if her capsule did it because Samus doesn't use SPB's (gee wonder why) but the standard.

Because the power bomb capsule wasn’t installed inside the actual device, there’s no way it could have been amped. Meaning that just the raw destructive power of Samus’s capsule was enough to turn a regular inert device into the super power bomb. And until there’s an explanation of how Blast amped the power bomb’s energy upon the activation of the super bomb, all I can take away is that the bomb was fully relying on Samus’s technology for its destructive power, and not any other factors. Meanwhile, Samus’s capsule energy could spread through the whole bomb, so size clearly wasn’t an issue. So, Samus’s capsule should scale.

So? And even they aren't static, and only negligibly different in volume from a normal.
And here we have a literal 4000000x larger PB denoted as super, and you're arguing "nah they same ballpark", really dude?

You said yourself we don't know the difference, but now you're arguing "must be 3-5x", dude, it's whatever it WANTS to be, we don't know, we just know it's better, so it is, and we have nothing to compare or scale between, so they just dont.

And we also know that the super bomb was entirely reliant on Samus’s capsule energy for its explosive potential (since Blast gives literally no other explanation for how his bomb was enhanced and the size isn’t it because Samus’s capsule energy was capable of fully charging the bomb)

Media literacy man, why do you think the dude hammered down it'd kill her?

Like, are you assuming he has absolutely zero intel on Samus? Because that'd be wrong, he knew who Samus was at a glance, so he's obviously been briefed, and no, Samus isn't famous, her name well known, but what she looks like or even who she is isn't well known, as established 2 chapters before this.
And like, bro's ally has Samus' more durable suit power? And his boss can mog Power Suit Samus?

Do you really think he has NO idea what she might be capable of enduring? The very fact he knowns what she looks like is proof he's been briefed. buuuuuuuuut....

That's all yapping, the actual answer would be because the manga says as much a bunch and an author wouldn't just lie like that? Hence, media.

Again Blast is not a reliable source on Samus’s exact durability, he didn’t measure her in a laboratory to see how many joules of energy she could live through. It’s not objective.

No? Why are you ignoring hard, explicit, stated plot points? She can't focus them, they have a fixed range, you're wrong, stop ignoring shit and making stuff up.

Yeah, to refill her energy tanks? She isnt tanking shit, and, again, normal Power Bomb.

Do you not get that, Power Bombs, do not matter, they do not scale to the Super Power Bomb. This argument is an actual waste of time.
also in blood of the chozo, old burd says the crystal flash could instantly kill her if she isnt omega careful.

Yeah, until I get an explanation of why the super bomb is way better than a normal one that isn’t size (because I disagree with that), I fail to see why there would be a significant gap between normal and super bombs.

Except, wrong, she's using the ammo, in a BEAM combo. That, is not a Power Bomb blast.
And, again, not a SPB? Actually, she can do whatever the hell she wants with a normal PB, she can't control the blast AOE, hard fact, and a normal PB isnt a SPB. Anything else doesnt matter.

"Should", why is all your arguments like this, every time?
And dog, what'd ya think that device is for? For show?

Until we get an explanation about how the device amps Samus’ bombs all I can say is, kind of.

Yeah, reminder being flash frozen like 5 times tends to kill you

Uh, being frozen does damage? Right now, if you were frozen solid, then unthawed, you'd think you'd be fine? Yeah maybe, ignoring every cell in your body exploding.

Dude, hate to break it to you, but you can't argue this, this isnt us going "erm actually", it's wiki rules, tanking cold stuff and being frozen not dura by itself.

Then I guess that’s just me disagreeing with the wiki so, I’ll stop arguing about it.

And^2, the AP calc is for the cold so any magical damage means nothing even if that was true.
also pretty sure, in gameplay, it's because it's stacked onto normal beam and stuff

Beams didn’t stack in Metroid 2 and they still did this.

i feel like sometimes we forget we're reading a manga where they say stuff for an expressive purpose unlike irl.

And I think sometimes people forget that lying out your ass or boasting is a thing.

Hol up, who said Bishop was stronger than anyone innately? He isnt a leader due to strength, he's one because he glazes Greed and is smart, Knight, would be there because he's strong.

I was comparing their weapons, not them as individuals.

Anyway, you've had enough posts now, you're just repeating the same stuff and not understanding how freeze feats/tanking work and wacky false equivalences or shit like "it's just a different name", actual waste of my time. Not replying to you further unless you give hard evidence.

Fine, I guess we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree, I’ll stop posting after this.

So we agree then that this is many times more powerful than the bombs Samus uses. Great.

No cuz AOE =/= power level.

 

[Deagonx]

No cuz AOE =/= power level.

It's a bomb.

 

[Chariot190]

until I get an explanation of why the super bomb is way better than a normal one

And I think sometimes people forget that lying out your ass or boasting is a thing.

Why would he lie? Like, he thought it would? He saw Samus went "ayo hol up nah, **** it, nuking ya anyway", then dipped. He wasn't lying, he wasn't boasting, he fully 100% intended to kill Samus unless he was completely ignorant of how strong POWER SUIT Samus was, why even lie? He would at least know that much dude.

No cuz AOE =/= power level.

Except here, where AOE can't be restrained despite your 10 false equivalences about Beam combos and stuff that isnt a PB.

Beams didn’t stack in Metroid 2 and they still did this.

The retconned game that had a bunch of hardware limitations?

Rest makes me wanna get this turned into staff only ngl.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

If this does become a Staff only thread then would I still be allowed to comment since I haven't been making a mess of things?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, until I get an explanation of why the super bomb is way better than a normal one that isn’t size (because I disagree with that), I fail to see why there would be a significant gap between normal and super bombs.

I'd be very concerned if the super bomb isn't better than the normal one. I don't like saying this, but with stuff like this I can't help but say... you don't need to argue just for argument's sake.

 

[JJSliderman]

I'd be very concerned if the super bomb isn't better than the normal one. I don't like saying this, but with stuff like this I can't help but say... you don't need to argue just for argument's sake.

I said I wasn’t gonna post anymore but, that wasn’t what I was going for. It’s just that, since the bomb is visibly running on the same pool of energy that Samus’s capsule provides, and Blast didn’t provide a technical explanation for how that energy pool was amplified to fully charge his bomb (which I think is important when a lot of tech factions like the space pirates could only make inferior versions of Samus’ technology with their advanced resources, assuming his bomb is WAY more powerful), and the energy is visibly displayed as traveling through the entirety of the bomb and the story framed it so that Samus’ capsule fully charged the bomb, I just wanted a little more reasoning as to why Blast’s bomb was way ahead of Samus’s.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean the terminology is a pretty big indicator, I feel.

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Is there a proposed rating to bring the characters to, or is that to be covered in the next thread?

 

[Chariot190]

Samus is able to partially power the bomb with her own beam weapons to rocket it into space.

Was calcing that btw, you're looking at idk trillion times below 5-B, prob gonna be high 7.

I said I wasn’t gonna post anymore but, that wasn’t what I was going for. It’s just that, since the bomb is visibly running on the same pool of energy that Samus’s capsule provides, and Blast didn’t provide a technical explanation for how that energy pool was amplified to fully charge his bomb (which I think is important when a lot of tech factions like the space pirates could only make inferior versions of Samus’ technology with their advanced resources, assuming his bomb is WAY more powerful), and the energy is visibly displayed as traveling through the entirety of the bomb and the story framed it so that Samus’ capsule fully charged the bomb, I just wanted a little more reasoning as to why Blast’s bomb was way ahead of Samus’s.

Prove the normal like 0.3m PB's have the same amount of energy as the 200m large object infused with energy denoted as Super variant and thus confirmed better, all while having a planet-sized AOE contrary to Samus' PB's, whose AOE explicitly can't be contained making them an actual hazard and unsanctioned.
Like dude, it's extremely evident.

Hell beyond that, prove Samus' PB's can even contain that much energy? Like it's huge for good reason.

Fact of the matter is, it's a SPB so we know it's better, and it has a planet AOE while her's doesn't despite the fact she can't focus the AOE so it being smaller is a sole byproduct of power, AND she can tank them yet the manga would have you believe she can't tank this one.

You've been told all this, it's been explained, how can you ask for more when your argument doesn't even solve the blatant issues?

 

[thetechmaster36]

Is there a proposed rating to bring the characters to, or is that to be covered in the next thread?

Replacement tiers will probably come in the next thread I'd assume, since there's still some feats being found and/or calculated to replace the old ones.

With that said, I agree with this thread.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean the terminology is a pretty big indicator, I feel.

Anyways, I agree with the OP. Is there a proposed rating to bring the characters to, or is that to be covered in the next thread?

We're working on calcs, we have a few important ones done and like 15 half baked, these threads more just to get rid of the bad stuff so when we're done we can replace them and upload the revised profile without needing to jump through hoops, and some calcs hinges on debunking some of this shit, like we can't calc a feat properly if every feat is accepted to be done under 960g, ya get me?
atm it's looking like 6-B tho

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah, I was told all that, doesn’t change that I disagree with it for reasons I said and you just write off as inane rambling. But I digress.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Chariot190 I get what you mean yeah, just let me know if you need any evaluations

 

[Qawsedf234]

I read through and comment later

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Not convinced by the counter arguments quite yet. I agree with the OP.