Metroid Prime 2: Light of Aether downgrade

[Armorchompy]

The primary purpose of this thread is to debunk a feat that is currently the basis for the Metroid series' Low 4-C ratings, which is characters scaling to the Light of Aether, an energy that supposedly is equal to the planet Aether's Mass-energy conversion. The way in which the characters scale to this is a bit complicated, since there are a few ways in which this could happen, each associated with a character: Dark Samus, Samus Aran and the Emperor Ing. I will be going through each of these, explaining why I do not believe that they scale to this alleged feat, and then will be discussing the feat itself.

Before getting into that, I will attempt to summarize what the Light of Aether is, what its link to Aether and Dark Aether is, and what its role in the story of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes is. This may sound like a waste of time, but it is quite important to the feat proper. If you would like to get it straight from the source, I encourage you to read all of Metroid Prime 2's Luminoth Lore, which essentially contains most of the Light's... well, lore (Keybearer Lore and A-Kul's Clues aren't relevant, only the History is).

Aether is the planet on which Metroid Prime 2 takes place. Long ago, it was colonized by the peaceful moth-like Luminoth, who quickly realized that Aether's "planetary energy supply reached a critical stage. If left unchecked, the energy would expire, bringing an end to the world. [Their] greatest minds devised a way to preserve and regulate the remaining planetary energy - the Energy Controllers.". This, essentially, is the Light of Aether. Aether's planetary energy (which on its own would dissipate, and due to somewhat vague reasons, bring forth the end of Aether), which the Luminoth collected (to prevent it from dissipating) into Energy Controllers, which they put inside their temples.​

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This all went well, until one day the Luminoth noticed a meteorite streaking towards their planet, one too big for them to stop. This meteorite was actually a Leviathan, which is a thing with a bunch of lore attached to it, but I don't think that's immediately important towards this feat. It caused a lot of damage, but as the Luminoth eventually found, its worst effect on Aether is that it had warped the space around it, and somehow split it into two dimensional parallels: Aether (Which I will refer to as "Light Aether" to distinguish it from its other half), which the Luminoth inhabited, and Dark Aether, inhabited by the evil Ing. Worse than that, half of the Light of Aether was gone, transferred to Dark Aether, in the Ing's possession. The Luminoth were forced into a war that they eventually began to lose. Eventually, they developed the Energy Transfer Module, "a device designed to recover [their] lost planetary energy", and set out to invade the Ing's Sky Temple, where they kept most of their half of the Light of Aether. However, they failed, the Ing took the Device and used it to steal much of Light Aether's Light: Three of the four temples overrun and their energy taken. Only U-Mos, one last sentinel, remained to guard the Great Temple.​

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This is when the events of the game actually begin. Samus Aran lands on Aether, due to reasons that aren't important right now, accidentally recovers the Energy Transfer Module (which bonds with her suit) and meets U-Mos, who explains much of the situation to her. She sets out to help the Luminoth, adventuring through Aether and Dark Aether, defeating bosses and finding all four of the Ing's Energy Controllers, taking their energy and bringing it back to their Light Aether equivalent. The last of these collectors is guarded by the game's final boss(ish), Emperor Ing. Samus kills it and absorbs the Light it was guarding, which brings up a countdown and a warning: "Planetary condition critical! Escape at once!". Samus' escape is halted by Dark Samus: They fight, and Samus prevails as Dark Samus dissipates. Samus escapes Dark Aether with seconds to spare as the alternate planet collapses. She returns to the Luminoth, gives them the last of their energy back, and waves goodbye. In the stinger, we see Dark Samus reforming, somehow having survived her defeat at the hands of Samus.​

The claim is that Dark Aether's destruction, and the Light of Aether itself, are the Mass-energy conversion of half of Aether's mass. Aether is transformed into the Light of Aether, which is transformed into Dark Aether, as I understand it. Before I get into why I disagree, I should say that since my interactions with the Metroid fandom (Well, the Metroid VSBW community- I am part of the Fandom) started off on the wrong foot, I would ask everyone in this thread to please try to take my arguments in good faith and engage with them calmly- In response, I will do the same.

Dark Samus​

This one is going to be relatively brief, because I don't know if anyone actually believes this is a legitimate source of scaling to the feat, but it is on the profiles right now, so I should address it. Dark Samus' profile claims that "Not even a pocket realm collapsing on her or a massive planet exploding could kill her, rather leaving her only in a damaged state that she could recover from". I don't believe this works.

1. Let's assume that the destruction of Dark Aether is Low 4-C. Realistically, Dark Samus would only be exposed to a small portion of its destruction, because of inverse square law- Dark Samus' size is very tiny compared to the entire planet, across which the energy is spread.
2. Even if that wasn't the case, surviving the Mass-energy conversion of Dark Aether cannot possibly expose her to Low 4-C energies, given that those energies were spent taken by Samus and brought to Light Aether. Hard to tank something if it's not there. All the survived was the (probably untierable) collapse of Dark Aether.
3. It's straight-up stated that Dark Samus survived the destruction of Dark Aether because her particles floated into space, and she regenerated from that (Source).
4. Finally, if Samus does not escape in time, she is killed by the destruction of Dark Aether, despite being at least comparable to Dark Samus at this point.

Conclusion: There was no Low 4-C destruction for Dark Samus to tank, and if there was, she still didn't tank it.

Samus (Not Dark)​

Samus' profile claims that she "Continously absorbed the Light of Aether, a fraction of which can stabilize the planet, with no notable increase in power". All of that is very true (Well, sort of. A fraction of the Light of Aether can't permanently stabilize the planet, at minimum a majority of it is needed, but that's secondary). However, the implication here that she is gaining power from the Light of Aether is provably false.

1. The Energy Transfer Module is never stated, hinted or implied to empower Samus' equipment. This is a complete fabrication- to the point that it's difficult to me to "prove" that it isn't correct, given that there's just no reason it would even be assumed. The only things it allows her to do are transfer the Light of Aether, and become immune to the Ing's possession.
2. If Samus actually did use that energy to attack or power her suit, it would be wasted, and that is the one thing she cannot afford to do- the Luminoth's survival hinges on her bringing it back to them.
3. Even if we assume that Samus is capable and willing to wield the Light in combat anyways, we know for sure that she never uses any relevant portion of it- because then, it would no longer be in her possession, and simply disperse away. Even if she just expended 1% of her Light of Aether with every shot, she would quickly run out of all of it, which she clearly does not.

Conclusion: Samus can only transfer the Light of Aether, and cannot use it in combat. Even if she could, she would not be able to use any relevant portion of it, and thus not scale to its full yield in any manner.

Emperor Ing​

Emperor Ing's profile claims that it "Absorbed Dark Aether's half of the Light of Aether, putting it at half of the energy produced in Dark Aether's destruction, which it actively uses even in its weaker forms". The base statement is correct: Emperor Ing is straight-up stated to siphon energy from the Energy Controller.

1. The issue with this is the same as the issue with Samus' scaling to the Light of Aether: If it actually expended a significant portion of the energy in combat, then it would no longer be there for Samus to grab afterwards.
2. And keep in mind, Emperor Ing is fighting to protect this Light, it would make no sense for it to consume so much of it, considering it is aware that it would mean the destruction of Dark Aether.
3. Even if you don't believe in the above, there's a simpler issue- even in a vacuum, there's absolutely no reason to assume that Emperor Ing did absorb all or a majority of the Light of Aether, or that it even can do it. No statement implies it is capable of that, and the Logbook even states that absorbing what energy it does take is an overtime thing for it. [Important to note, most of the same reasoning also applies for Samus herself].

The Light of Aether is not Low 4-C​

All of the counterarguments I just listed are true- I think, at least- but sort of unimportant. The base assumption behind the Light of Aether's tiering is that it is a Mass-energy conversion of half of Aether's... mass. At surface value this can make sense, it after all allows for a clone of Aether to be created, and once that energy is absorbed, said clone disappears. However, further research led me to disagreeing.

We actually get a pretty straightforward definition of what the Light of Aether is when we first scan Aether's Main Energy Controller: it is said to hold "a collection of several types of energy. Notable types include solar, bio, and geothermal energy". This is already a mark against the original assumption: it tells us that the Light of Aether is a collection of Aether's planetary energies that the Luminoth simply stored safely, as for whatever reason, it sustains the planet of Aether. There's even a statement that if it all was taken Aether would be destroyed by violent climate shifts and tectonic movements - that doesn't really sound like a planet being converted into energy. We even see the removal of the Light beginning to affect Dark Aether: Whenever Samus gets some of the Light back, the skies in that area turn red. Furthermore, the Light existed, and after MP2 exists again, at the same time as Aether in its entirety. It could not possibly be the energy conversion of half of Aether's mass, because it exists at the same time as all of that mass.

Now, the argument is that it's Dark Aether that's converted into energy, not Aether, but it's obvious these two are in the same situation. Both are parallel version of the same planet created by the Leviathan's impact having some form of chain reaction with the Light of Aether. The Light split between them and is barely sustaining them, and when one (Dark Aether) is deprived of all of it, it collapses. There's really little evidence at all that point towards any of this being E=mc^2, and we have very clear standards on Mass-Energy conversion feats: "Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used.". This is simply not the case- to my knowledge there isn't even a vague allusion of the Light of Aether being used to create Dark Aether, but even that would not be enough- the page makes that very clear.

Conclusion (Proposed Changes)​

The Low 4-C rating should be removed from all Metroid pages. In its place, characters should be listed as "At least 5-B", upscaling from Samus' Varia Suit. Samus in MP3, following the current scaling, goes from "Varies, at least Low 4-C to Unknown" to "Varies, at least 5-B to far higher", and people scale to either "At least 5-B", or "At least 5-B, likely far higher" depending on when they fight her.

Agree: 5 (11 Total): Armorchompy (Apparently I can do this lol), SeijiSetto, CrimsonStarFallen, thetechmaster36, CloverDragon03, Maverick_Zero_X, DMUA, Dust Collector, Chariot190, Deagonx, Qawsedf

Disagree: 1 (4 Total): JJSliderman, SomebodyData, DarkDragonMedeus, StretchSebe

Neutral:

 

[SeijiSetto]

true and real downgrade (i agree)
samus remains a Mega Man X victim

 

[Armorchompy]

nuh uh

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

The feat itself is a bust yeah, so I agree with this.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Looks good

Li'l sad to see Stellar Metroid go, but Tier 5 is a goated tier anyways, so it's not a big loss

 

[CloverDragon03]

This seems reasonable, I agree Mr. Boogeyman

true and real downgrade (i agree)
samus remains a Mega Man X victim

Downgrade Mega Man X next

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yeah, Low 4-C being wrong seems pretty blatant. Agree with the OP.

 

[SeijiSetto]

This seems reasonable, I agree Mr. Boogeyman

Downgrade Mega Man X next

it's not a nintendo franchise, i'm afraid armor is entirely powerless

 

[Armorchompy]

it's not a nintendo franchise, i'm afraid armor is entirely powerless

it's literally on the super nintendo? dummy

 

[CloverDragon03]

it's literally on the super nintendo? dummy

Setto? COOKED

 

[DMUA]

it's not a nintendo franchise, i'm afraid armor is entirely powerless

(Besides, they can't halt the Low 2-C/2-C agenda)

Anyways yeah this doesn't really sound like mass energy conversion, even without the clarifications

 

[SeijiSetto]

Setto? COOKED

it's literally on the super nintendo? dummy

 

[JJSliderman]

I’m gonna have to disagree and say I do think the LoA should be mass energy conversion and that it should apply to attack potency.

First off, the light of Aether has absolutely been weaponized in the past, since the Luminoth used it to try and destroy the leviathan seed, but failed (which is actually something that should probably be on the seed’s profile for durability). This is shown in the Stellar Object Luminoth lore (specifically they note that the energy controllers were drained to do this and Aether was weakened).

Second, the light of Aether does more than just sustain the planet on a GBE level. The light of Aether equivalent on Dark Aether was capable of sustaining the planet on an atomic level, since it’s noted the trans dimensional flux on Aether goes down to the atomic level (from the World Warped lore). And when the light of Aether was taken away from Dark Aether, the planet immediately began collapsing, and the restoration of the remaining LoA to Light Aether stopped all traces of trans dimensional flux, likely meaning the planet’s remaining atoms were reconstructed back on Light Aether. So, the LoA can create planets down to the atomic level, which is textbook ME conversion stuff.

Third, even if Dark Samus tanking Aether’s destruction or Emperor Ing absorbing the LoA doesn’t count, I’d argue that Light Suit Samus still presents a scaling chain, as it is the concentrated power of the Light of Aether from the main Aether energy controller that is amping Samus’s suit. And since Samus can defeat enemies that can damage and destroy her Light of Aether boosted suit, and since the suit likely contains at least 3/8 of Aether’s planetary energy (as 1/8 is the minimum that Aether needs to survive and the Luminoth obviously want Samus to have the best chance of defeating Emperor Ing), Light Suit Samus should still be scaling to a fraction of the mass energy conversion potential of the light.

So I guess maybe a slight downgrade is in order but I think LS Samus should still be Small Star.

 

[Chariot190]

First off, the light of Aether has absolutely been weaponized in the past, since the Luminoth used it to try and destroy the leviathan seed, but failed (which is actually something that should probably be on the seed’s profile for durability). This is shown in the Stellar Object Luminoth lore (specifically they note that the energy controllers were drained to do this and Aether was weakened).

Dog... Ya just proved she and Emperor Ing don't actually use it, if using it drains it, as proven by that very feat, yet Samus had the whole thing in pocket, and handed it over to U-MOS, she evidently, didn't use it to empower herself. Your very evidence works against you lad.

Second, the light of Aether does more than just sustain the planet on a GBE level. The light of Aether equivalent on Dark Aether was capable of sustaining the planet on an atomic level, since it’s noted the trans dimensional flux on Aether goes down to the atomic level (from the World Warped lore). And when the light of Aether was taken away from Dark Aether, the planet immediately began collapsing, and the restoration of the remaining LoA to Light Aether stopped all traces of trans dimensional flux, likely meaning the planet’s remaining atoms were reconstructed back on Light Aether. So, the LoA can create planets down to the atomic level, which is textbook ME conversion stuff.

This, doesn't actually mean anything? I would hope it extends to the atoms, and even beyond that, it's a different dimension?

Secondly, "likely meaning", we can't have "likely", we need a hard statement for EMC as that's wiki rules.

Third, even if Dark Samus tanking Aether’s destruction or Emperor Ing absorbing the LoA doesn’t count, I’d argue that Light Suit Samus still presents a scaling chain, as it is the concentrated power of the Light of Aether from the main Aether energy controller that is amping Samus’s suit.

Do they say that anywhere?

And since Samus can defeat enemies that can damage and destroy her Light of Aether boosted suit, and since the suit likely contains at least 3/8 of Aether’s planetary energy (as 1/8 is the minimum that Aether needs to survive and the Luminoth obviously want Samus to have the best chance of defeating Emperor Ing),

Do they say that anywhere? Also, don't they literally say Samus returned half the light back? I'm pretty sure this very assumption is contradicted by the fact she returned half of it back.
How would she return 1/2, if she used 3/8ths?

Light Suit Samus should still be scaling to a fraction of the mass energy conversion potential of the light.

We need a hard statement saying it's mass energy.

I'm not gonna agree with op yet, but these arguments ain't it, hell ya kinda proved a chunk of op right.

I'll wait and see if anyone posts a direct statement it was amping her 1:1 or an EMC statement.

 

[JJSliderman]

Dog... Ya just proved she and Emperor Ing don't actually use it, if using it drains it, as proven by that very feat, yet Samus had the whole thing in pocket, and handed it over to U-MOS, she evidently, didn't use it to empower herself. Your very evidence works against you lad.

The Light of Aether is self-regenerating so, she can use it and still have it. The fact that the light came back after it was used in the lore sort of proves that.

This, doesn't actually mean anything? I would hope it extends to the atoms, and even beyond that, it's a different dimension?

I mean the fact that it can recreate a planet on an atomic level via energy should mean that it’s not just baseline planet, I would think.

Secondly, "likely meaning", we can't have "likely", we need a hard statement for EMC as that's wiki rules.

A planet’s mass completely ceases to exist without the energy tied to it, meaning the mass directly comes from the energy.

Do they say that anywhere?

Obviously the suit is boosting Samus by virtue of letting her completely no sell the Ingstorms that would eviscerate her in the dark suit, but the game and Luminoth already established a precedent that they are okay with using the light of Aether in weapons to protect Aether, and Samus is the only thing that can protect Aether at this point, so it would make sense for U-Mos to put as much LoA into the suit as possible.

Do they say that anywhere? Also, don't they literally say Samus returned half the light back? I'm pretty sure this very assumption is contradicted by the fact she returned half of it back.
How would she return 1/2, if she used 3/8ths?

And this also means that the suit isn’t really draining the light, it’s a suit that was amplified by the light and is made stronger and more durable because of the light, but the light isn’t being shot at anything. So as long as Samus keeps the suit intact, the light is still there to return.

 

[Armorchompy]

First off, the light of Aether has absolutely been weaponized in the past, since the Luminoth used it to try and destroy the leviathan seed, but failed (which is actually something that should probably be on the seed’s profile for durability). This is shown in the Stellar Object Luminoth lore (specifically they note that the energy controllers were drained to do this and Aether was weakened).

Yes, we know they used the energy in the past, there's other lores that say this. This still has absolutely zero implication that Samus is capable of doing the same, and the fact that they acknowledge that using the energy wastes it proves it even more that Samus is not capable of using the Light she absorbs freely, lest she waste it.

Second, the light of Aether does more than just sustain the planet on a GBE level. The light of Aether equivalent on Dark Aether was capable of sustaining the planet on an atomic level, since it’s noted the trans dimensional flux on Aether goes down to the atomic level (from the World Warped lore). And when the light of Aether was taken away from Dark Aether, the planet immediately began collapsing, and the restoration of the remaining LoA to Light Aether stopped all traces of trans dimensional flux, likely meaning the planet’s remaining atoms were reconstructed back on Light Aether. So, the LoA can create planets down to the atomic level, which is textbook ME conversion stuff.

Do you realize that "create [object] down to the atomic level" is what literally every creation feat ever does? And moving atoms doesn't mean much either, the standards are pretty clear, mass-energy needs to be straight-up said.

I’d argue that Light Suit Samus still presents a scaling chain, as it is the concentrated power of the Light of Aether from the main Aether energy controller that is amping Samus’s suit.

Source? Cause I literally explained why that doesn't work, for several reasons. Just having the juice inside you doesn't provably do anything.

since the suit likely contains at least 3/8 of Aether’s planetary energy (as 1/8 is the minimum that Aether needs to survive and the Luminoth obviously want Samus to have the best chance of defeating Emperor Ing)

There is literally no backing for any of this.

 

[Armorchompy]

The Light of Aether is self-regenerating so, she can use it and still have it. The fact that the light came back after it was used in the lore sort of proves that.

What logbook are you referring to?

I mean the fact that it can recreate a planet on an atomic level via energy should mean that it’s not just baseline planet, I would think.

A planet’s mass completely ceases to exist without the energy tied to it, meaning the mass directly comes from the energy.

"Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used."

Obviously the suit is boosting Samus by virtue of letting her completely no sell the Ingstorms that would eviscerate her in the dark suit, but the game and Luminoth already established a precedent that they are okay with using the light of Aether in weapons to protect Aether, and Samus is the only thing that can protect Aether at this point, so it would make sense for U-Mos to put as much LoA into the suit as possible.
And this also means that the suit isn’t really draining the light, it’s a suit that was amplified by the light and is made stronger and more durable because of the light, but the light isn’t being shot at anything. So as long as Samus keeps the suit intact, the light is still there to return.

The Light Suit was forged with the Light of Aether, sure, but that does not at all mean it is being actively empowered by it. There is absolutely no statement that it is, no implication that it is, your entire argument is based around "it would make sense if they did this", which sure, maybe it would, but that doesn't mean they did. There certainly is no implication that this is all even possible, technology, even space moth technology, has so many logistics that we cannot have full scrutiny on, and that you are entirely ignoring all of that for the sake of a random assumption.

 

[Armorchompy]

And this also means that the suit isn’t really draining the light, it’s a suit that was amplified by the light and is made stronger and more durable because of the light, but the light isn’t being shot at anything. So as long as Samus keeps the suit intact, the light is still there to return.

Also I've got to go to sleep but this is just circling back to the same thing, the LoA's Low 4-C or whatever feat is specifically associated with the entirety of the light's output all at once, not some of it existing inside a suit and passively providing power to it. And also this is just not true because Samus' suit expends energy when she's hurt

 

[Chariot190]

The Light of Aether is self-regenerating so, she can use it and still have it. The fact that the light came back after it was used in the lore sort of proves that.

Because they got more? And that wasn't a mere few minute gap either.
Like they gather it man, that's what the tech does.

You are literally saying it regenerated back completely within like, a few minutes at best. If it could do that, why in the actual **** do they care most of it was stolen? There's no risk.

Btw this is flatout wrong, they make it 100% clear it can't do that, and without the Luminoth doing anything, it would fade and perish.

I mean the fact that it can recreate a planet on an atomic level via energy should mean that it’s not just baseline planet, I would think.

Reminder atomizing the planet is like, 5-B. GBE goes wild, mere creation/destruction pales.

A planet’s mass completely ceases to exist without the energy tied to it, meaning the mass directly comes from the energy.

Actually, it had a fucky dimensional collapse.

Obviously the suit is boosting Samus by virtue of letting her completely no sell the Ingstorms that would eviscerate her in the dark suit,

Well duh, the suit is immune to the toxic effects of Dark Aether completely, Dark Suit wasn't. That's a hax/res thing, not AP/Dura.

but the game and Luminoth already established a precedent that they are okay with using the light of Aether in weapons to protect Aether, and Samus is the only thing that can protect Aether at this point, so it would make sense for U-Mos to put as much LoA into the suit as possible.

I asked to prove it amped to begin with, not that the suit contained it at all. From what the game tells us, all we see, is that the light protects from Dark Aether. They do not say she used it, she very evidently didn't given she returns it back as is.

And this also means that the suit isn’t really draining the light, it’s a suit that was amplified by the light and is made stronger and more durable because of the light, but the light isn’t being shot at anything. So as long as Samus keeps the suit intact, the light is still there to return.

Except the light would be expanded because that's how energy works, hell that's how Samus' E-Tanks and shit works even, that's not just a irl thing, but a Metroid thing.
Don't make up headcanon man. Prove it's amping her, prove it's affecting her strength, prove it isn't just doing the single thing they say it's doing, and prove why she returns half it back if she's actively using it to amp, something, as per your own evidence, know drains the light when used.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Reading through the OP and a few of the last posts yeah this makes senses.

Even ignoring the arguments brought up here, already thought it was kinda weird already this was treated as something they scaled to since (Unless I'm stupid) the profiles also currently treat DS has having been completely annilated by this to justify the low-godly regen while also treating it as a durability feat.

 

[JJSliderman]

What logbook are you referring to?

The World Warped, plus the fact that the energy is continuously used to sustain the planet, so obviously it would have to regenerate in order to keep doing that.

"Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used."

Idk how more clear it can be when the energy and the mass are directly connected (no energy, no mass)

The Light Suit was forged with the Light of Aether, sure, but that does not at all mean it is being actively empowered by it. There is absolutely no statement that it is, no implication that it is, your entire argument is based around "it would make sense if they did this", which sure, maybe it would, but that doesn't mean they did. There certainly is no implication that this is all even possible, technology, even space moth technology, has so many logistics that we cannot have full scrutiny on, and that you are entirely ignoring all of that for the sake of a random assumption.

The suit was directly made by the collision of light energy from all three energy controllers coalescing into the suit, we already have precedence that the light of Aether can be used for combat purposes, and the light suit makes Samus significantly more durable to the elements of Dark Aether compared to before. I think it’s fair to say the Light Suit is an amp.

Also I've got to go to sleep but this is just circling back to the same thing, the LoA's Low 4-C or whatever feat is specifically associated with the entirety of the light's output all at once, not some of it existing inside a suit and passively providing power to it. And also this is just not true because Samus' suit expends energy when she's hurt

The energy tanks are just there to symbolize the suit’s ability to protect Samus dropping, not expending energy.

Because they got more? And that wasn't a mere few minute gap either.
Like they gather it man, that's what the tech does.

They don’t even specify the gap so you can’t really say it took a long time, and the fact that the LoA is continuously stabilizing the planet has to mean the process of energy restoration is also continuous. And if the Light Suit is Luminoth technology like the energy controllers, it would make sense for the same process to apply.

You are literally saying it regenerated back completely within like, a few minutes at best. If it could do that, why in the actual **** do they care most of it was stolen? There's no risk.

Just because it can regenerate doesn’t mean the stolen amount isn’t prevalent, it just means it’s a finite amount that can be recycled and restored indefinitely up to said finite amount.

Btw this is flatout wrong, they make it 100% clear it can't do that, and without the Luminoth doing anything, it would fade and perish.

Yes, they had to make technology to allow the light to regenerate, and once they did that threat didn’t happen anymore. But the Light Suit is also a Luminoth gift spawned from the same energy controllers that allow the regulation process to function.

Reminder atomizing the planet is like, 5-B. GBE goes wild, mere creation/destruction pales.

That doesn’t really change how the planetary energy is siphoned off to regulate and sustain the planet’s matter in a give-take balance, which is what conversion entails.

Actually, it had a fucky dimensional collapse.

Which also involved the complete annihilation of all the planet’s mass and matter in this alternate dimension (which like, the alt dimension is just the one planet so this feels like semantics)

Well duh, the suit is immune to the toxic effects of Dark Aether completely, Dark Suit wasn't. That's a hax/res thing, not AP/Dura.

The fact Samus can just no sell the Ingstorm, which are actual organic beings that physically attack Samus in a cloud, shows the suit is also more durable.

I asked to prove it amped to begin with, not that the suit contained it at all. From what the game tells us, all we see, is that the light protects from Dark Aether. They do not say she used it, she very evidently didn't given she returns it back as is.

Saying that she didn’t use the energy to boost herself is wrong, you can argue that Emperor Ing didn’t use the totality of the LoA on his planet, but he was still siphoning it off to boost himself for a period of time. That’s why you need to cut his connection to it, to stop him from doing so.

Except the light would be expanded because that's how energy works, hell that's how Samus' E-Tanks and shit works even, that's not just a irl thing, but a Metroid thing.
Don't make up headcanon man. Prove it's amping her, prove it's affecting her strength, prove it isn't just doing the single thing they say it's doing, and prove why she returns half it back if she's actively using it to amp, something, as per your own evidence, know drains the light when used.

Why would the energy be wasted if Samus is still restoring it with health pickups and light beam ammo and other restoratives.

Moreover why would U-Mos not entrust the only possible savior of his race and planet with as much energy as possible to ensure the maximum possible odds for Samus to win, if Samus lost then the Ing would just come back and get the energy and start the crisis all over again. We have a statistic for how much energy can remain on Aether for it to still exist in a semi-livable state to say how much Samus could feasibly take, and we have confirmation the LoA can be used as a combat tool, so it just makes sense.

 

[Chariot190]

Reading through the OP and a few of the last posts yeah this makes senses.

Even ignoring the arguments brought up here, already thought it was kinda weird already this was treated as something they scaled to since (Unless I'm stupid) the profiles also currently treat DS has having been completely annilated by this to justify the low-godly regen while also treating it as a durability feat.

Tbh, I think this whole thing has use still, in regards to Prime 3 HM/DS anyway maybe, need confirmation from a log or statement first but it might be a possibility if the game says the right string of words

plus the fact that the energy is continuously used to sustain the planet, so obviously it would have to regenerate in order to keep doing that.

Man, no.
They have whole-ass equipment to gather more.

we already have precedence that the light of Aether can be used for combat purposes,

That drains it and weakens the planet yes.

and the light suit makes Samus significantly more durable to the elements of Dark Aether compared to before. I think it’s fair to say the Light Suit is an amp.

Yes, the toxic environment, that is simply res, because light > dark, like it's dumb but so is Dark Aether being poison.

They don’t even specify the gap so you can’t really say it took a long time,

Nice try, given they had time to write a log and have a whole ass war, from then to start of game, ain't a negligible few minutes.

and the fact that the LoA is continuously stabilizing the planet has to mean the process of energy restoration is also continuous.

You know the Energy Module's gather/regulate the stuff yes? Something Light Suit isn't stated to even do.

And if the Light Suit is Luminoth technology like the energy controllers, it would make sense for the same process to apply.

Statement? Proof? Why is everything you say conjecture man? That is evidently not the case anyway because if it was they wouldn't give a shit.
Samus' suit, lacks the SOLE piece of tech required for this to even be open for debate, and like, I don't see Samus' suit drawing solar, bio, and geothermal energy and more from the environment.

Just because it can regenerate doesn’t mean the stolen amount isn’t prevalent, it just means it’s a finite amount that can be recycled and restored indefinitely up to said finite amount.

Stop making stuff up please...
"It self regenerates except when it can't and also it has an arbitrary undefined limit", or, maybe, it literally can't do that normally and it contradicts your point because your point is made up?

And dude, you said yourself, they only need 1/8th, if it can regenerate indefinitely, which it damn well has to for your argument to hold weight in Samus utilizing it, then the very premise and a million other things fall apart, simply because you assumed something.

The energy tanks are just there to symbolize the suit’s ability to protect Samus dropping, not expending energy.

Metroid 2 manual, among others. He ain't wrong, it's an actual canon thing.

Yes, they had to make technology to allow the light to regenerate,

Except, that isn't what it does? Why are you making stuff up?

and once they did that threat didn’t happen anymore. But the Light Suit is also a Luminoth gift spawned from the same energy controllers that allow the regulation process to function.

Why are you treating tech, spawned from said tech, to be functionally identical when we know damn well Samus ain't a walking energy mine drawing in all types of energy from the environment at all times to replenish the large fraction she uses every attack in order to scale? As just one issue.

That doesn’t really change how the planetary energy is siphoned off to regulate and sustain the planet’s matter in a give-take balance, which is what conversion entails.

It does, your point, was wrong. Shifting your point doesn't change that the other was wrong and let's not even get into the science behind this, i dont even think it's calculable tbh

Which also involved the complete annihilation of all the planet’s mass and matter in this alternate dimension (which like, the alt dimension is just the one planet so this feels like semantics)

Yes, in a chain reaction, just like the light world. The actual process at play doesn't support EMC, hell this whole fiasco is assuming the absolute highest extreme interpretation, for the most basic sustaining feat in history. Like dude, when taken the environment shifts, things begin to crumble, and stuff just breaks and then slowly fades away over a staggering 7 minute timeframe and then some. That, is not indicative of EMC.

The fact Samus can just no sell the Ingstorm, which are actual organic beings that physically attack Samus in a cloud, shows the suit is also more durable.

"Ingstorm particles turn red and bounce away when they collide with the Light Suit"
Again, hax/res, they're weak to light. Like moth to a flame, they can't rip through it if touching it is like Superman touching kryptonite. It literally has nothing to do with her durability.
And even if it did, you'd need to prove she's using the whole LoA directly, let alone it just being due to better armor. You'd be assuming the highest extreme without any statement or evidence.

Saying that she didn’t use the energy to boost herself is wrong,

It isn't wrong when you literally have no proof, the burden is on you.
Don't you find it odd how almost everything you've said is preceded by "likely", and not "is", bar one scan, a scan that actively proves using it, expends it.

you can argue that Emperor Ing didn’t use the totality of the LoA on his planet, but he was still siphoning it off to boost himself for a period of time.

Yes, he was, how much? 0.0001%, 0.0000001%? We straight up know, 100%, objective undeniable fact, he didn't not use it at all, there is no "you can argue", it is simply the case. He didn't, we know he didn't. End of.

That’s why you need to cut his connection to it, to stop him from doing so.

This isn't even relevant, ignoring the fact it wouldn't make sense for him to use the only thing in it's totality that's preventing te destruction of is world, and is actively PROTECTING, but the very fact ya cut him off from what little he does use, means they ain't using to scale so like?

Why would the energy be wasted if Samus is still restoring it with health pickups and light beam ammo and other restoratives.

"lil baby geemer energy = the energy that actually needs to be used to sustain the planet"
"lil baby geemer energy = the mass extreme amount of energy needed to sustain Aether".

Dude, what the actual hell are ya cooking, if you're arguing random picks up, can replenish the energy Samus was expending from it, then by direct correlation, the energy she was expending was such a tiny minuscule negligible amount, that it wouldn't even be 1 trillionth of the total energy, which, mind you, the value is for THE WHOLE thing, not 0.0000000001% of it.

Like damn dude, why didn't the Luminoth think of doing that? Just kill a few goons and grab a few ammo packs, planet saved. Hell they killed so many Ing in the war they probably have enough juice to last thousands of years.
That was sarcasm, no matter how you go about it, via that argument, Samus would be using such a minuscule amount of it that she wouldn't scale anyway. That's ignoring you made that up btw but for argument's sake.

This is wrong anyway because if everyone worth damn is secretly scaling to this shit, Samus would have used it like all up in the back to back boss fight, and her ass wasn't filling up the planet's energy within a sub 7 minute timer.

Moreover why would U-Mos not entrust the only possible savior of his race and planet with as much energy as possible to ensure the maximum possible odds for Samus to win,

Because the whole point of the plot is "hey get it back, we NEED that shit".

if Samus lost then the Ing would just come back and get the energy and start the crisis all over again.

Yes and they'd die. They'd also die if Samus used it all to kill some goons.

We have a statistic for how much energy can remain on Aether for it to still exist in a semi-livable state to say how much Samus could feasibly take,

Yes, we also know she returned it all back at the end.

and we have confirmation the LoA can be used as a combat tool, so it just makes sense.

Can be, via very special methods that was not applied here, with prep, in a singular giga weapon, that weakened the whole planet (this did not happen with Samus, take that as you will), and it left the energy drained, with a huge long ass gap between then, and next time we know it was juiced. And yet you're arguing that Samus, is amped by it (never stated), uses it to amp her attacks (never stated), uses a large fraction of it (would need to be to scale), and yet is also secretly constantly restoring it (never stated) via pick ups (negligible), or an ability that suit doesn't have or is stated to have?

Let's not even get into EMC where it's the same. Like it or not you need a statement, especially when dealing with a weird dimension planet that spits in the face of logic and science and doesn't even make sense. Hell based on what we know it's probably weird Phazon shit too given that's what Ing are.
You're arguing a basic sustainability/creation feat, is EMC, even though we have creation/sustainability methods as well, which, of course, don't entail EMC, because why would we? Metroid isn't special, we need proof the exact method and mechanics is EMC, which we don't have, you're merely taking that interpretation and running with it as fact, when for EMC feats, interpretation isn't good enough.

Why is EVERYTHING being argued conjecture, "likely this", "maybe that", I get not everything needs to be spoonfed, but literally everything here is guesswork tha isn't even really implied half the time, and even worse, making an assumption based on other assumptions, just post a hard a statement, it's that simple. I'll make this easy.
Post a statement saying EMC, that the LoA amped her, that the suit regens the energy atop that to explain why she somehow hands it all over if she used it (that or a statement saying the EM does, and the suit has the same capability).
Without these 3 things, especially 2 given that's the most important, this simply can not be abided.

 

[SomebodyData]

Got asked to respond so...

Dark Samus​

This one is going to be relatively brief, because I don't know if anyone actually believes this is a legitimate source of scaling to the feat, but it is on the profiles right now, so I should address it. Dark Samus' profile claims that "Not even a pocket realm collapsing on her or a massive planet exploding could kill her, rather leaving her only in a damaged state that she could recover from". I don't believe this works.

1. Let's assume that the destruction of Dark Aether is Low 4-C. Realistically, Dark Samus would only be exposed to a small portion of its destruction, because of inverse square law- Dark Samus' size is very tiny compared to the entire planet, across which the energy is spread.
2. Even if that wasn't the case, surviving the Mass-energy conversion of Dark Aether cannot possibly expose her to Low 4-C energies, given that those energies were spent taken by Samus and brought to Light Aether. Hard to tank something if it's not there. All the survived was the (probably untierable) collapse of Dark Aether.
3. It's straight-up stated that Dark Samus survived the destruction of Dark Aether because her particles floated into space, and she regenerated from that (Source).
4. Finally, if Samus does not escape in time, she is killed by the destruction of Dark Aether, despite being at least comparable to Dark Samus at this point.

Conclusion: There was no Low 4-C destruction for Dark Samus to tank, and if there was, she still didn't tank it.

[*]I agree with the first point, so I'm not going to argue much other than the explosion would still be Low 4-C (Light of Aether =/= mass of Aether, not sure why it's being treated as such here) and Dark Samus' survival wasn't because she avoided the explosion by floating into space, she has no ability to teleport between Light Aether & Dark Aether that we know of, so she was there when the dimension was destroyed. Also the last point is just game mechanics.

Samus (Not Dark)​

Samus' profile claims that she "Continously absorbed the Light of Aether, a fraction of which can stabilize the planet, with no notable increase in power". All of that is very true (Well, sort of. A fraction of the Light of Aether can't permanently stabilize the planet, at minimum a majority of it is needed, but that's secondary). However, the implication here that she is gaining power from the Light of Aether is provably false.

1. The Energy Transfer Module is never stated, hinted or implied to empower Samus' equipment. This is a complete fabrication- to the point that it's difficult to me to "prove" that it isn't correct, given that there's just no reason it would even be assumed. The only things it allows her to do are transfer the Light of Aether, and become immune to the Ing's possession.
2. If Samus actually did use that energy to attack or power her suit, it would be wasted, and that is the one thing she cannot afford to do- the Luminoth's survival hinges on her bringing it back to them.
3. Even if we assume that Samus is capable and willing to wield the Light in combat anyways, we know for sure that she never uses any relevant portion of it- because then, it would no longer be in her possession, and simply disperse away. Even if she just expended 1% of her Light of Aether with every shot, she would quickly run out of all of it, which she clearly does not.

Conclusion: Samus can only transfer the Light of Aether, and cannot use it in combat. Even if she could, she would not be able to use any relevant portion of it, and thus not scale to its full yield in any manner.

Emperor Ing​

Emperor Ing's profile claims that it "Absorbed Dark Aether's half of the Light of Aether, putting it at half of the energy produced in Dark Aether's destruction, which it actively uses even in its weaker forms". The base statement is correct: Emperor Ing is straight-up stated to siphon energy from the Energy Controller.

1. The issue with this is the same as the issue with Samus' scaling to the Light of Aether: If it actually expended a significant portion of the energy in combat, then it would no longer be there for Samus to grab afterwards.
2. And keep in mind, Emperor Ing is fighting to protect this Light, it would make no sense for it to consume so much of it, considering it is aware that it would mean the destruction of Dark Aether.
3. Even if you don't believe in the above, there's a simpler issue- even in a vacuum, there's absolutely no reason to assume that Emperor Ing did absorb all or a majority of the Light of Aether, or that it even can do it. No statement implies it is capable of that, and the Logbook even states that absorbing what energy it does take is an overtime thing for it. [Important to note, most of the same reasoning also applies for Samus herself].

1. I agree with JJ's points here. @Chariot99 while we don't really know much of how the Light of Aether works, we do know that when the Ings absorb something, they do use it (All the Guardians) and are mutated by their usage & Phazon (Again, all the Guardians and the Emperor Ing's final phase). It also literally uses the Light of Aether as an energy source for it's beams during its first form. And the scans say the same thing:
   
   "Bioscans indicate that this is the eldest, strongest Ing in the Horde, the alpha and the omega. It has absorbed enormous amounts of Phazon energy into its body, mutating itself in the process. Apparently this power is not enough for the creature, as it is now siphoning energy from the final Energy Controller."
   
   Also Dark Samus' regen has nothing to do with the Dark Aether feat @Dust_Collector
   
   @Armorchompy I'll respond to the rest of your points later today or tomorrow, I apologize.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree with JJ's points here.

Almost everything he said is unconfirmed conjecture, as a wiki we do not work like that.

@Chariot99 while we don't really know much of how the Light of Aether works,

Then stop making stuff up? If we don't know, then we don't know. Let's not pretend we do.

we do know that when the Ings absorb something, they do use it (All the Guardians) and are mutated by their usage & Phazon (Again, all the Guardians and the Emperor Ing's final phase). It also literally uses the Light of Aether as an energy source for it's beams during its first form. And the scans say the same thing:

So? Nobody is saying Emperor Ing isn't using LoA, he is, they state as much, the issue is, if he isn't using all of it, which he 100% objectively, not up for debate, is, then it's useless. He could be using 0.00000000001% for all we know, all we can tell is whatever amount he's using, isn't enough to make much difference from the Energy Module, aka, it isn't grounds for scaling. Like just because ya can draw power from a power plant, doesn't mean you're equal to said power plant if you only drain a bit.

"Bioscans indicate that this is the eldest, strongest Ing in the Horde, the alpha and the omega. It has absorbed enormous amounts of Phazon energy into its body, mutating itself in the process. Apparently this power is not enough for the creature, as it is now siphoning energy from the final Energy Controller."

The very fact he's siphoning it, a continuous process, tells us he doesn't take it all at once, nor use it at all at once.
The fact it's there for him to siphon, even after siphoning, is a tremendously huge red flag when we know that when the LoA is used, it's used.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For the power source the FAQ does have a note in it (albeit for a higher tier):

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once).

Just being powered by or empowered by something isn't meaningful or really relevant. You have to prove they can wield that energy in high magnitudes to actually scale to anything.

For the thread just reading through it I leanlre towards Armor's side of this not being a Low 4-C fear but I'll wait on the counter responses.

 

[SomebodyData]

For the power source the FAQ does have a note in it (albeit for a higher tier):

Just being powered by or empowered by something isn't meaningful or really relevant. You have to prove they can wield that energy in high magnitudes to actually scale to anything.

For the thread just reading through it I leanlre towards Armor's side of this not being a Low 4-C fear but I'll wait on the counter responses.

I understand, however, it isn't a case of being empowered, but absorption. Furthermore, every time these characters (The Ing) have absorbed something, they also upgrade it so it seems pretty safe here to say that it's at the very least consistent.

 

[SomebodyData]

Almost everything he said is unconfirmed conjecture, as a wiki we do not work like that.

Then stop making stuff up? If we don't know, then we don't know. Let's not pretend we do.

So? Nobody is saying Emperor Ing isn't using LoA, he is, they state as much, the issue is, if he isn't using all of it, which he 100% objectively, not up for debate, is, then it's useless. He could be using 0.00000000001% for all we know, all we can tell is whatever amount he's using, isn't enough to make much difference from the Energy Module, aka, it isn't grounds for scaling. Like just because ya can draw power from a power plant, doesn't mean you're equal to said power plant if you only drain a bit.

The very fact he's siphoning it, a continuous process, tells us he doesn't take it all at once, nor use it at all at once.
The fact it's there for him to siphon, even after siphoning, is a tremendously huge red flag when we know that when the LoA is used, it's used.

I haven't made anything up, so chill out there. If I have, tell me and I'll correct myself.

The Ing have historically upgraded what they absorb (Look at the various Guardians), seems very speculative that this would be the only circumstance out of 7 to not be the case and instead use a low fraction.

 

[Chariot190]

I understand, however, it isn't a case of being empowered, but absorption.

Quite literally the same, see the power plant example. It is simply wiki standards, we need to know they use all of it, for all we know it could just be used as a mere energy source, like a manapool, kinda like Emperor Ing was quite literally doing or how Samus uses Reserve Tanks, it being absorbed, even assuming that she's using it, still doesn't mean she's using it all at once.

Plus, we know for a fact they aren't even doing that here. Especially when told that using the LoA, well, uses it up. If it's still there minutes later, 7 at most, they evidently didn't tap into it much, if at all.

Furthermore, every time these characters (The Ing) have absorbed something, they also upgrade it so it seems pretty safe here to say that it's at the very least consistent.

You're talking about tech, like the boost ball. Upgrading a gun, is not the same as draining a negligible arbitrary fraction of a energy source, and then arguing "yeah because it siphoned this evidently very small amount, they must scale because he upgraded it apparently".

Could you imagine? Emperor Ing drains a lil bit and bam, upgrades that bit to be on par with the very thing he took from, energy crisis solved ig.
No, not only is Emperor Ing not stated or shown upgrading it, but it isn't even a comparable situation to modifying like, a gun, that other Ing do.

I haven't made anything up, so chill out there. If I have, tell me and I'll correct myself.

Are you JJ?

 

[JJSliderman]

Man, no.
They have whole-ass equipment to gather more.

And that equipment directly helps create the light suit, which are both pieces of Luminoth technology

That drains it and weakens the planet yes.

Weakens the planet if it’s used to destroy things as a weapon, nothing states that it drains as a defense tool purely.

Yes, the toxic environment, that is simply res, because light > dark, like it's dumb but so is Dark Aether being poison.

If light is > dark then that shows the light suit is an amp over the standard dark suit, light suit Samus ends up completely overpowering anything that Dark Aether attempts to do, something that couldn’t be done with a standard light beam (despite that also being light)

Nice try, given they had time to write a log and have a whole ass war, from then to start of game, ain't a negligible few minutes.

It’s not confirmed the energy only regenerated after the war.

You know the Energy Module's gather/regulate the stuff yes? Something Light Suit isn't stated to even do.

And Samus has been “regulating” the energy and storing it within her for the entire game cuz she had a regulation module infused with the suit.

Statement? Proof? Why is everything you say conjecture man? That is evidently not the case anyway because if it was they wouldn't give a shit.

Samus' suit, lacks the SOLE piece of tech required for this to even be open for debate, and like, I don't see Samus' suit drawing solar, bio, and geothermal energy and more from the environment.

Samus absorbs light energy from Aether the entire game to amplify her beam weapons.

Stop making stuff up please...
"It self regenerates except when it can't and also it has an arbitrary undefined limit", or, maybe, it literally can't do that normally and it contradicts your point because your point is made up?

Idk why the idea of self-regenerative and finite energy is a huge world shattering revelation when Android 17 and 18 have existed for over 30 years.

And dude, you said yourself, they only need 1/8th, if it can regenerate indefinitely, which it damn well has to for your argument to hold weight in Samus utilizing it, then the very premise and a million other things fall apart, simply because you assumed something.

Just because they can survive with that limited energy doesn’t make it ideal, the planet was still ravaged by storms and other natural disasters, plus invasions of Ing. There’s still a reason to have all of it.

Metroid 2 manual, among others. He ain't wrong, it's an actual canon thing.

Except, that isn't what it does? Why are you making stuff up?

Why are you treating tech, spawned from said tech, to be functionally identical when we know damn well Samus ain't a walking energy mine drawing in all types of energy from the environment at all times to replenish the large fraction she uses every attack in order to scale? As just one issue.

Because Samus is absorbing elemental energy and fundamental forces from the environment to boost herself, like light and darkness energy.

It does, your point, was wrong. Shifting your point doesn't change that the other was wrong and let's not even get into the science behind this, i dont even think it's calculable tbh

Energy goes into the planet’s matter to revitalize it, no energy means no planet matter at all, LoA goes down as it’s revitalization process works, it’s fair to say the light energy is being used on the mass.

Yes, in a chain reaction, just like the light world. The actual process at play doesn't support EMC, hell this whole fiasco is assuming the absolute highest extreme interpretation, for the most basic sustaining feat in history. Like dude, when taken the environment shifts, things begin to crumble, and stuff just breaks and then slowly fades away over a staggering 7 minute timeframe and then some. That, is not indicative of EMC.

Chain reaction that takes 8 minutes and not the slow burn of natural disasters that came from a limited (but not 100% depleted) light supply, whereas the endgame DA has ZERO light. Different scenario.

"Ingstorm particles turn red and bounce away when they collide with the Light Suit"
Again, hax/res, they're weak to light. Like moth to a flame, they can't rip through it if touching it is like Superman touching kryptonite. It literally has nothing to do with her durability.
And even if it did, you'd need to prove she's using the whole LoA directly, let alone it just being due to better armor. You'd be assuming the highest extreme without any statement or evidence.

If you’re arguing it’s better armor, then that does make it an amp over the dark suit, which is provable due to its performance on Dark Aether. And again, contextually U-Mos should be giving Samus as much energy as possible because he wants his planet to survive and Samus is the only way to ensure that permanently, especially when giving Samus the energy comes at no consequence if she lives due to the energy controllers restoring lost energy to a preset amount

It isn't wrong when you literally have no proof, the burden is on you.
Don't you find it odd how almost everything you've said is preceded by "likely", and not "is", bar one scan, a scan that actively proves using it, expends it.

Yes, he was, how much? 0.0001%, 0.0000001%? We straight up know, 100%, objective undeniable fact, he didn't not use it at all, there is no "you can argue", it is simply the case. He didn't, we know he didn't. End of.

This isn't even relevant, ignoring the fact it wouldn't make sense for him to use the only thing in it's totality that's preventing te destruction of is world, and is actively PROTECTING, but the very fact ya cut him off from what little he does use, means they ain't using to scale so like?

That’s just it, we have no idea if he used a little or a lot, but he is using some energy and managed to siphon off a portion of said energy for himself, he also gets stronger as phases progress. And yet Samus is still capable of absorbing the energy and restoring the planet, which just shows they aren’t really wasting any energy by using it for combat, because it can just be regenerated to a preset amount.

"lil baby geemer energy = the energy that actually needs to be used to sustain the planet"
"lil baby geemer energy = the mass extreme amount of energy needed to sustain Aether".

Dude, what the actual hell are ya cooking, if you're arguing random picks up, can replenish the energy Samus was expending from it, then by direct correlation, the energy she was expending was such a tiny minuscule negligible amount, that it wouldn't even be 1 trillionth of the total energy, which, mind you, the value is for THE WHOLE thing, not 0.0000000001% of it.

And by that proxy, I can just argue that the energy lost is comparatively also a tiny amount of LoA that can be replenished by these health capsules, so they wouldn’t need to be small star level capsule regeneration. Or the capsules can just scale how much they restore with the suit, seeing as they restore the same percentages whether Samus is in her power or Varia suit (which have different levels of strength and durability)

Like damn dude, why didn't the Luminoth think of doing that? Just kill a few goons and grab a few ammo packs, planet saved. Hell they killed so many Ing in the war they probably have enough juice to last thousands of years.
That was sarcasm, no matter how you go about it, via that argument, Samus would be using such a minuscule amount of it that she wouldn't scale anyway. That's ignoring you made that up btw but for argument's sake.

This is wrong anyway because if everyone worth damn is secretly scaling to this shit, Samus would have used it like all up in the back to back boss fight, and her ass wasn't filling up the planet's energy within a sub 7 minute timer.

Because the whole point of the plot is "hey get it back, we NEED that shit".

And since the energy can be regenerated when lost as a result of the energy controllers, Samus can just put the energy she has back in, and it can be regulated once more. In fact, her taking the energy doesn’t seem to be even causing problems, because the energy controllers literally give up energy all the time before regrowing it. So Samus isn’t actually “wasting” energy at all.

Yes and they'd die. They'd also die if Samus used it all to kill some goons.

Yes, we also know she returned it all back at the end.

Can be, via very special methods that was not applied here, with prep, in a singular giga weapon, that weakened the whole planet (this did not happen with Samus, take that as you will), and it left the energy drained, with a huge long ass gap between then, and next time we know it was juiced. And yet you're arguing that Samus, is amped by it (never stated), uses it to amp her attacks (never stated), uses a large fraction of it (would need to be to scale), and yet is also secretly constantly restoring it (never stated) via pick ups (negligible), or an ability that suit doesn't have or is stated to have?

Long gap is something you just pulled out of thin air, it being an amp is pretty obvious when Samus does significantly better against Dark Aether threats than basic light weaponry, it being a large fraction is supported by the desperation of the scenario, etc.

Let's not even get into EMC where it's the same. Like it or not you need a statement, especially when dealing with a weird dimension planet that spits in the face of logic and science and doesn't even make sense. Hell based on what we know it's probably weird Phazon shit too given that's what Ing are.
You're arguing a basic sustainability/creation feat, is EMC, even though we have creation/sustainability methods as well, which, of course, don't entail EMC, because why would we? Metroid isn't special, we need proof the exact method and mechanics is EMC, which we don't have, you're merely taking that interpretation and running with it as fact, when for EMC feats, interpretation isn't good enough.

Why is EVERYTHING being argued conjecture, "likely this", "maybe that", just post a hard a statement, it's that simple. I'll make this easy.
Post a statement saying EMC, that the LoA amped her, that the suit regens the energy atop that to explain why she somehow hands it all over if she used it (that or a statement saying the EM does, and the suit has the same capability).
Without these 3 things, especially 2 given that's the most important, this simply can not be abided.

We have lore entries directly saying the LoA was dispersed into the planet, statements how this process lowered the energy while boosting the vitality of the mass, we have reason to believe that the LoA amped Samus when it’s light potency is clearly superior to that of other light based weapons Samus was using for the whole game+the context of the final battle and the planet’s future, and the fact LoA can be used offensively, and we have no reason to believe the LoA is being expended as part of the energy draining process of the suit (and if it is, it’s doing so in quantities that are the same as when Samus is using a normal suit, so the idea that it’s draining in massive percentages that health capsules can’t restore isn’t substantiated)

 

[SomebodyData]

Are you JJ?

The comment was towards me?

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm not sure if there's history here, but I think @Armorchompy, @JJSliderman, and @Chariot190 maybe take a break for a second before we continue and refresh?

 

[JJSliderman]

Well I guess there’s some history.

But no, I don’t hold animosity

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm not sure if there's history here, but I think @Armorchompy, @JJSliderman, and @Chariot190 maybe take a break for a second before we continue and refresh?

SomebodyData, while you're here and present, can you elaborate on what you wanted to talk about in my Rage Power CRT like you mentioned awhile back? The only reason I haven't applied any of that yet is because I was waiting to hear what you wanted to talk about first.

 

[DMUA]

Dark Samus' survival wasn't because she avoided the explosion by floating into space, she has no ability to teleport between Light Aether & Dark Aether that we know of, so she was there when the dimension was destroyed.

He's not saying it didn't hit, just that they regenerated from stray matter. Someone who can heal at that scale doesn't need to have durability anywhere near whatever hit them.

Also the last point is just game mechanics.

What indicates it contradicts the narrative, when this is ultimately a failure to adhere to a rapid escape sequence? Would something indicate they could just stay still and withstand it?

 

[JJSliderman]

Well I suppose Samus taking hits from enemies with the plasma beam (which is stronger than bombs that can destroy planets) and taking hits from Gorea (a being who could annihilate everything in the galaxy overtime and destroyed a planet core by crashing into the surface) maybe says Samus can survive planet level stuff and contradicts her dying to planet busts.

 

[Chariot190]

And that equipment directly helps create the light suit, which are both pieces of Luminoth technology

So?

Weakens the planet if it’s used to destroy things as a weapon, nothing states that it drains as a defense tool purely.

Except, it'd be amping Samus' AP too if it amped her durability because it'd cross scale between shit and circle back.
And no, that isn't how Samus' suits work, at all, they expend energy.

If light is > dark then that shows the light suit is an amp over the standard dark suit, light suit Samus ends up completely overpowering anything that Dark Aether attempts to do, something that couldn’t be done with a standard light beam (despite that also being light)

Completely ignoring the fact that everything on Dark Aether takes increased damage from the light beam.
We're talking about microscopic entities, of course they get messed up by it.

And no, Samus doesn't "completely overpower anything Dark Aether attempts to throw at her", that is simply not even true? She just becomes immune to the adverse elements, a hax/res thing, not dura.

It’s not confirmed the energy only regenerated after the war.

Wasn't my point, my point was between when they used it, and when we know it came back, there was a HUGE amount of time.
And, we know it wasn't instant, given it destabilized the planet to where they made note of it.

And you think it can refill naturally in literal minutes, or going by stuff below, mere seconds? Dude, prove this.

And Samus has been “regulating” the energy and storing it within her for the entire game cuz she had a regulation module infused with the suit.

Ya missed the "gather" part of that lad.

Samus absorbs light energy from Aether the entire game to amplify her beam weapons.

Statement?

Idk why the idea of self-regenerative and finite energy is a huge world shattering revelation when Android 17 and 18 have existed for over 30 years.

The actual worst examples you could have used.
17 and 18 have INFINITE energy, hence they can draw on it without limit, inveresely, can't use it all at once.

If you're comparing LoA/EM to them, you've ****** up, because that'd be a case where Samus is merely tapping into a power source, using only negligible bits of it, except it isn't infinite and can and will run out.

Also DBZ, hell that ain't even Nintendo.

Just because they can survive with that limited energy doesn’t make it ideal, the planet was still ravaged by storms and other natural disasters, plus invasions of Ing. There’s still a reason to have all of it.

Yeah, I'm sure there is, but hey it regenerates within minutes according to you so why care?
Your argument, not stated mind you, is demonstrably not the case.

Because Samus is absorbing elemental energy and fundamental forces from the environment to boost herself, like light and darkness energy.

You mean the ammo that has a ammo limit that she expends with every light/dark attack?
Bruh...

Energy goes into the planet’s matter to revitalize it, no energy means no planet matter at all, LoA goes down as it’s revitalization process works, it’s fair to say the light energy is being used on the mass.

Dude, statement, end of, we can go back and forth all day, hell I could argue this shit isn't even calcable, but **** it, statement given you're evidently going to repeat the same stuff.

Chain reaction that takes 8 minutes and not the slow burn of natural disasters that came from a limited (but not 100% depleted) light supply, whereas the endgame DA has ZERO light. Different scenario.

8 minutes? That's even worse, and yes, that's exactly my point, it took EIGHT MINUTES for DA to collapse with 0 Energy.

You realize that's an issue right? That tells us the energy wasn't doing mass conversation stuff, it was simply sustaining it, and the dimensional collapse, is its own thing, that literally nobody even scales to given it KILLS Samus, and DS regen'd from particles.

The literal only thing you can even attempt to argue as EMC, that being the collapse, doesn't scale, but rather the actual act of sustaining it so it doesn't chain reaction and die is what scales and I don't think I need to explain why that takes an exponentially ludicrous less amount of energy.

Metroid is not special, calc it as a sustainability feat if ya want, but EMC needs direct statement.

If you’re arguing it’s better armor, then that does make it an amp over the dark suit, which is provable due to its performance on Dark Aether.

My point was, even if the suit had better durability, it can be simply due to being better armor, not "oh it's actually using the whole of LoA to amp its durability directly 1:1 with it". You take the extreme high ends constantly based on nothing but conjecture, stop please.

And again, contextually U-Mos should be giving Samus as much energy as possible because he wants his planet to survive and Samus is the only way to ensure that permanently, especially when giving Samus the energy comes at no consequence if she lives due to the energy controllers restoring lost energy to a preset amount

Contextually he doesn't want ANY of it spent dude.
And case and point, you're assuming this, based on the premise she is amped by, she's using it constantly, she regenerates the energy she expends, and she's expending the highest amount always.
This, is headcanon you made up, no proof, no evidence. Stop it. Post statement and scans dude.

That’s just it, we have no idea if he used a little or a lot, but he is using some energy and managed to siphon off a portion of said energy for himself, he also gets stronger as phases progress. And yet Samus is still capable of absorbing the energy and restoring the planet, which just shows they aren’t really wasting any energy by using it for combat,

So? Does he use it all? No. Does he use enough to make a dent in it? No. Then they don't scale.
Hell the fact he gets stronger based on what little he does use, isn't a very good indicator btw.

because it can just be regenerated to a preset amount.

No, it can't, this is headcanon. We know, because they say as much, that when used it's gone. You think they used LoA, had next to nothing, then 2 seconds later it came back because that's like the gap between some of Ing's attacks so same timeframe ig?
No, I'm not even going to humor this.

And by that proxy, I can just argue that the energy lost is comparatively also a tiny amount of LoA that can be replenished by these health capsules

Which would mean they dont scale to it.

, so they wouldn’t need to be small star level capsule regeneration.

Literally would because that's what the LoA is? It's actual energy that needs to be used, bio, solar, geothermal, etc, it's all actual energy that is used for stuff. The energy in the Module MUST be actual quantifiable energy, if Samus uses like a 4-C amount, she goddamn HAS to refill it with 4-C amounts of energy.

Or the capsules can just scale how much they restore with the suit, seeing as they restore the same percentages whether Samus is in her power or Varia suit (which have different levels of strength and durability)

Dog that's like, actual gameplay mechanics wtf

And since the energy can be regenerated when lost as a result of the energy controllers, Samus can just put the energy she has back in, and it can be regulated once more.

Yes, refill it, assuming she even can mind you because they don't state this at all and she obviously isn't doing it with known aspects of what the LoA is but for argument's sake, a puny ass geemer energy ball or limited ammunition, is not going to replenish any notable fraction of the LoA, I'm baffled this is even being argued.

In fact, her taking the energy doesn’t seem to be even causing problems, because the energy controllers literally give up energy all the time before regrowing it. So Samus isn’t actually “wasting” energy at all.

By collecting more energy, over time, not, like, 0.1 seconds between beam shots

We have lore entries directly saying the LoA was dispersed into the planet,

Yes, doesn't matter.

statements how this process lowered the energy while boosting the vitality of the mass,

Post this.

we have reason to believe that the LoA amped Samus when it’s light potency is clearly superior to that of other light based weapons

This isn't even actually true.

Samus was using for the whole game+the context of the final battle and the planet’s future,

The context is "hey we need this shit, please get it back or we're ******", and then she gets it back and hands it over as is without all this made up shit you're talking about.

and the fact LoA can be used offensively,

yeah via prep time, a big giga weapon, and that very fact left the planet weakened because the LoA was used up in part and didn't regen in like 1 second like you think it somehow can.

and we have no reason to believe the LoA is being expended as part of the energy draining process of the suit

Except, ya know, you're arguing the energy is being used to amp her, if that is the case, than goddamn right it'd be expended if that's what's enabling it.

(and if it is, it’s doing so in quantities that are the same as when Samus is using a normal suit, so the idea that it’s draining in massive percentages that health capsules can’t restore isn’t substantiated)

Lad, ya know the other suit is more durable just because it's made of like, better alloys and shit right? Energy tanks is unrelated to that, you kinda of conflating game mechanics with lore here.

I ask you to actally post statement and scans, nigh everything you've said is conjecture, or demonstrably false.

 

[SomebodyData]

SomebodyData, while you're here and present, can you elaborate on what you wanted to talk about in my Rage Power CRT like you mentioned awhile back? The only reason I haven't applied any of that yet is because I was waiting to hear what you wanted to talk about first.

Will do.

He's not saying it didn't hit, just that they regenerated from stray matter. Someone who can heal at that scale doesn't need to have durability anywhere near whatever hit them.

What indicates it contradicts the narrative, when this is ultimately a failure to adhere to a rapid escape sequence? Would something indicate they could just stay still and withstand it?

My bad if I misread that.

Not that I'm aware of; I was calling it game mechanics because the collapse should have started after Samus left, not while she was there. (Emperor Ing also absorbed the energy with the module and the world didn't begin collapsing, so the countdown seems more likely to just be game mechanics).

 

[Chariot190]

The comment was towards me?

It was towards you saying you agreed with his points, I stated his points were almost entirely conjecture/extrapolation, if ya mean line 1.
Unless you mean "then stop making stuff up", that was me speaking in general, ie, if we do not know, we shouldn't just guess and make shit up so let's not
idk why you thought I meant you specifically, ya haven't even replied much yet, sorry if ya misunderstood, my b.

 

[SomebodyData]

It was towards you saying you agreed with his points, I stated his points were almost entirely conjecture/extrapolation, if ya mean line 1.
Unless you mean "then stop making stuff up", that was me speaking in general, ie, if we do not know, we shouldn't just guess and make shit up so let's not
idk why you thought I meant you specifically, ya haven't even replied much yet, sorry if ya misunderstood, my b.

Yeah that's why I was abit taken aback, my bad if it was just directed at him.

And yeah, I could see there is speculation in with his points, but there are some elements I agree on (but he needs to bring the scans!).

 

[Chariot190]

Not that I'm aware of; I was calling it game mechanics because the collapse should have started after Samus left, not while she was there. (Emperor Ing also absorbed the energy with the module and the world didn't begin collapsing, so the countdown seems more likely to just be game mechanics).

Chalk that up to a fucky in writing. We know why it happened, and it did happen Everything is shaking and collapsing. Ignoring it would be like ignoring DS was there when it happened. We can't just cherry-pick when and what is ok to use based on unrelated contrivances.

Whatever the case, he didn't use it all, and DA remained, Samus stole it all, and it begin to fall apart. This does not effect that DA began to collapse when it did, and that failure to escape is lethal,

Yeah that's why I was abit taken aback, my bad if it was just directed at him.

And yeah, I could see there is speculation in with his points, but there are some elements I agree on (but he needs to bring the scans!).

Can ya just like, post a statement man, at the end of the day, that's what needs to be done, all the explaining in the world won't help if it isn't actually said.