Metal Gear Discussion Thread

[Emerald]

Volgin or Metal Gear verse?

the verse
never saw the verse doing shit like grandpa gohan

 

[Unknownnah]

Raiden is more skilled than Sam because he won their final encounter.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

Raiden is more skilled than Sam because he won their final encounter.

That was by virtue of overpowering, not outskilling. Let's not forget Sam was not at full power because he was confused why he was fighting for
Raiden is nowhere close to Sam's skill, Raiden is "self-taught" while Sam is properly trained, and can regularly outskill pretty much everyone he fights.
Raiden wins by virtue of willpower, all the time. Sam wins by skill.
Senator outskills Sam?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

That was by virtue of overpowering, not outskilling. Let's not forget Sam was not at full power because he was confused why he was fighting for
Raiden is nowhere close to Sam's skill, Raiden is "self-taught" while Sam is properly trained, and can regularly outskill pretty much everyone he fights.
Raiden wins by virtue of willpower, all the time. Sam wins by skill.

No???? Raiden is quite literally a child soldier who has already seen plenty of combat, while undergoing simulation training of the Shadow Moses incident, gaining Snake's skills as well. That's far from being self-taught, he's properly trained just like Sam. And even if Sam was wavering in his beliefs, it still didn't stop him from getting low-diffed by Raiden in their final encounter, only having him stumble a little right after.

Senator outskills Sam?

That's the true example of pure brute force, he's the 1st or 2nd strongest in the verse by far

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

No???? Raiden is quite literally a child soldier who has already seen plenty of combat, while undergoing simulation training of the Shadow Moses incident, gaining Snake's skills as well. That's far from being self-taught, he's properly trained just like Sam. And even if Sam was wavering in his beliefs, it still didn't stop him from getting low-diffed by Raiden in their final encounter, only having him stumble a little right after.

That is experience, not skill. You could torture me and teach me to snap necks and kill people efficiently since I was 6, but will I outskill someone who knows Muay Thai since he was 6 (and devoted his life to it)? His technique execution is better than Raiden. For reference, Sam could take on entire cartels by himself, without a cool HF blade and an exosuit. Ofc, Raiden did fight and outskill Solidus but guess what, Solidus is no better than a descendant of the Samurai in skill. I'd even argue he's better in open combat, because Raiden himself, is a stealth operative. He's for sure an excellent combatant, but Sam, even in the DLC, shows better combat feats.

"Self taught, not half bad. Still. Your technique...lacks something." - Sam
"He must be self taught, like you." - Boris, referencing to Sundowner, clearly inferior to Sam or Raiden in skill (he's an old man anyway, he's probably more skilled with tactical gear anyway)

I'd even argue Sam is more skilled than Snake, and yes, I know Snake uses CQC almost by instinct. Although Snake is far more experienced than Sam or Raiden for that regard, technique does not equal combat effectiveness. Snake and Raiden are both unorthodox fighters. Sam is pretty much, an orthodox fighter. CQC having endless variability just means you can use it to your advantage fully, it's a very unorthodox martial art, not really a matter of memorising or utilising technique, which gives Snake superior Battle IQ, of course Sam has one of the best BIQs in Metal Gear, but Snake I think has the best BIQ.

And it wasn't a low-diff, lol. Sam was kicking his ass unarmed. Raiden glazing going hard, it was an even match and if you don't think so play the game again or read it's lore.

See the codecs for yourself, Sam was an even match for Raiden, and confident he could take someone who could already take all of the Winds of Destruction. Raiden was the one getting curbstomped by Sam in the prologue because of his confusion and even if he had strong wills, he didn't win by virtue of outskilling. Raiden at best high-diffed him, and I'm crazy lowballing Sam. I personally believe it could've gone either way.

That's the true example of pure brute force, he's the 1st or 2nd strongest in the verse by far

1st. Raiden beat him by sheer force of will (Which by the way Armstrong wasn't also lacking) and plot armor. Practical explanation was that he managed to outpace the nanomachines before they could harden with a new blade that also uplifted his morale. But by pure power wise, Senator is way way stronger than Raiden. The speed gap is not large. And even someone like Armstrong is skilled, although clearly far less skilled than Raiden, but knows the basics of wrestling, grappling and sumo.

Thing is, Sam always wins battles by skill. Raiden wins by willpower. It's clear Sam is the more skilled fighter when it comes to technique, combat finesse, knowledge etc.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

That is experience, not skill. You could torture me and teach me to snap necks and kill people efficiently since I was 6, but will I outskill someone who knows Muay Thai since he was 6 (and devoted his life to it)? His technique execution is better than Raiden. For reference, Sam could take on entire cartels by himself, without a cool HF blade and an exosuit. Ofc, Raiden did fight and outskill Solidus but guess what, Solidus is no better than a descendant of the Samurai in skill. I'd even argue he's better in open combat, because Raiden himself, is a stealth operative. He's for sure an excellent combatant, but Sam, even in the DLC, shows better combat feats.
"Self taught, not half bad. Still. Your technique...lacks something." - Sam
"He must be self taught, like you." - Boris, referencing to Sundowner, clearly inferior to Sam or Raiden in skill (he's an old man anyway, he's probably more skilled with tactical gear anyway)

I feel like the two go hand in hand? But yeah I guess there is a difference to be found there.

And it wasn't a low-diff, lol. Sam was kicking his ass unarmed. Raiden glazing going hard, it was an even match and if you don't think so play the game again or read it's lore.

I did play the games! And I, uh, played on Revengeance, and parried well.

You know it's really funny how you can one or two shot most bosses with those parries on the highest difficulties.

See the codecs for yourself, Sam was an even match for Raiden, and confident he could take someone who could already take all of the Winds of Destruction. Raiden was the one getting curbstomped by Sam in the prologue because of his confusion and even if he had strong wills, he didn't win by virtue of outskilling. Raiden at best high-diffed him, and I'm crazy lowballing Sam. I personally believe it could've gone either way.

I really can't see it going either way when Raiden, again, is only stumbling after the fight, meaning he did have a clear cut advantage even if they were evenly matched.

And yeah, he was curbstomped on the train, but it's clear that changed a lot as evident by the final battle. Is the point about how even the littlest of uncertainty can nerf you into the dirt?

1st. Raiden beat him by sheer force of will (Which by the way Armstrong wasn't also lacking) and plot armor. Practical explanation was that he managed to outpace the nanomachines before they could harden with a new blade that also uplifted his morale. But by pure power wise, Senator is way way stronger than Raiden. The speed gap is not large. And even someone like Armstrong is skilled, although clearly far less skilled than Raiden, but knows the basics of wrestling, grappling and sumo.

Yeah I was just going by what I remembered Chariot saying.

Thing is, Sam always wins battles by skill. Raiden wins by willpower. It's clear Sam is the more skilled fighter.

Raiden is also very skilled. Again, he has all of Snake's skills up till the Shadow Moses incident, and he has willpower on top of that.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

I feel like the two go hand in hand? But yeah I guess there is a difference to be found there.

Not necessarily. Not on VS edits, at least, when the comparisons between each stat are really strict, especially on close matchups like Raiden vs Sam. Although yes, Experience can contribute to Combat, Battle IQ and Skill. But that doesn't mean you're necessarily getting every stat.

I did play the games! And I, uh, played on Revengeance, and parried well.

Good for you, I no-damaged the fight twice. Your skill in gaming does not dictate the canon fight. Does that mean Raiden canonically no-damaged every fight and S-ranked (no-diffed) it?

And yeah, he was curbstomped on the train, but it's clear that changed a lot as evident by the final battle. Is the point about how even the littlest of uncertainty can nerf you into the dirt?

Raiden gets smashed into the dirt in QTE fails many times, what do you mean? Clearly not a "low-diff". Sam was also taunting him a bit, something someone on a really bad position wouldn't really do.

I really can't see it going either way when Raiden, again, is only stumbling after the fight, meaning he did have a clear cut advantage even if they were evenly matched.

And yeah, he was curbstomped on the train, but it's clear that changed a lot as evident by the final battle. Is the point about how even the littlest of uncertainty can nerf you into the dirt?

Raiden was stumbling after Mistral. The outcome does not dictate anything, lol. In the lore, Sam was dangerous to Raiden. As yes, if you have seen, he engaged an all-out Armstrong, according to the in-game dialogue and QTE, and cutscenes. I believe he was holding back slightly when fighting both.

Yeah I was just going by what I remembered Chariot saying.

Good. Although, i'm just explaining, you know why I believe Armstrong is no.1

Raiden is also very skilled. Again, he has all of Snake's skills up till the Shadow Moses incident, and he has willpower on top of that.

He is, no doubt, and I agree with everything you said. Likely second. But still, Sam is more skilled. And I just told you why I believe Sam is more skilled than Raiden, which makes him more impressive honestly. Because Raiden is crazy skilled.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Not necessarily. Not on VS edits, at least, when the comparisons between each stat are really strict, especially on close matchups like Raiden vs Sam.

Good for you, I no-damaged the fight twice. Your skill in gaming does not dictate the canon fight. Does that mean Raiden canonically no-damaged every fight and S-ranked (no-diffed) it?

No, but my point is that on my latest playthroughs I missed the que for the hand to hand section and finished it early. So you know, I've been missing that part and have just been relying on the cutscenes for portrayal.

Raiden gets smashed into the dirt in QTE fails many times, what do you mean? Clearly not a "low-diff". Sam was also mocking him a bit, something someone struggling wouldn't really do.

And that's a QTE fail. I don't see how that means much if you win them, or are supposed to win those QTEs. Also, Sam is just that kind of guy, he's a chatterbox. It is in his weaknesses here after all.

Raiden was stumbling after Mistral. The outcome does not dictate anything, lol.

Kind of does feel like an outcome is supposed to dictate things. It's the outcome, after all. And his fight against Mistral is when Raiden is still having worries and conflicting thoughts.

In the lore, Sam was dangerous to Raiden. As yes, if you have seen, he engaged an all-out Armstrong, according to the in-game dialogue and QTE, and cutscenes. I believe he was holding back slightly when fighting both.

Yeah, he is dangerous to Raiden, that much is obvious now. Also, he did face Armstrong, but he did get owned hard there, more so when Armstrong wasn't even at his best iirc.

Good. Although, i'm just explaining, you know why I believe Armstrong is no.1

He is, no doubt, and I agree with everything you said. Likely second. But still, Sam is more skilled. And I just told you why I believe Sam is more skilled than Raiden, which makes him more impressive honestly. Because Raiden is crazy skilled.

hey, it does make sense, but I do believe Raiden is more skilled in the end, that's also just my thoughts. The most impressive thing about it all is that Sam was mostly human, barely any cybernetics while the rest of the cast was more machine than man at that point.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

No, but my point is that on my latest playthroughs I missed the que for the hand to hand section and finished it early. So you know, I've been missing that part and have just been relying on the cutscenes for portrayal.

Eh, it's still there. In my latest playthrough I had almost no QTE because I no damaged that shit.

And that's a QTE fail. I don't see how that means much if you win them, or are supposed to win those QTEs. Also, Sam is just that kind of guy, he's a chatterbox. It is in his weaknesses here after all.

You're doomed to fail it anyway. If you don't react to it you cannot resist it. It's not a button smashing. If you try to slide him when he's unarmed he'll flip you, no way to get around it.

And that's a QTE fail. I don't see how that means much if you win them, or are supposed to win those QTEs. Also, Sam is just that kind of guy, he's a chatterbox. It is in his weaknesses here after all.

He's a chatterbox only when be has to. He's very tactically smart, as he can figure out Armstrong's nanomachines faster than Raiden could (probs to him), but he's not stupid. He knows when he wins or loses. And in this case, he didn't know.

Kind of does feel like an outcome is supposed to dictate things. It's the outcome, after all. And his fight against Mistral is when Raiden is still having worries and conflicting thoughts.

I know Mistral was nowhere as tough. I'm just saying that you know, MGR opponents are actually tough challenges for Raiden, right?

Yeah, he is dangerous to Raiden, that much is obvious now. Also, he did face Armstrong, but he did get owned hard there, more so when Armstrong wasn't even at his best iirc.

In-game dialogue and the fact that Armstrong cut off his arm, went Super Saiyan Red, used Monsoon's telekinesis and yeeted him off the building suggest otherwise. That's not very "casual to me". (All QTE and unmissable btw).

hey, it does make sense, but I do believe Raiden is more skilled in the end, that's also just my thoughts. The most impressive thing about it all is that Sam was mostly human, barely any cybernetics while the rest of the cast was more machine than man at that point.

Skilled no, more powerful, kinda. Skill does not dictate victory. I just said that Sam has better technique execution, martial arts knowledge which make up skill. Raiden is as skilled as you mentioned, the only one surpassing him in skill being Sam. Only this guy. And that's what also makes him impressive and stand out.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Eh, it's still there. In my latest playthrough I had almost no QTE because I no damaged that shit.

It can be skipped actually. You just need to goad Sam into attacking more often than not to get those two parries in back to back.

You're doomed to fail it anyway. If you don't react to it you cannot resist it. It's not a button smashing. If you try to slide him when he's unarmed he'll flip you, no way to get around it.

Oh you meant that? I didn't think that would be considered a QTE. Usually those involve prompts.

He's a chatterbox only when be has to. He's very tactically smart, as he can figure out Armstrong's nanomachines faster than Raiden could (probs to him), but he's not stupid. He knows when he wins or loses. And in this case, he didn't know.

I'm not saying him being a chatterbox makes him stupid or anything, just that he's really talkative.

I know Mistral was nowhere as tough. I'm just saying that you know, MGR opponents are actually tough challenges for Raiden, right?

Oh, yeah, they're all tough battles for Raiden. I think I exaggerated a bit with what I said, but they're all challenges as Raiden progresses through the game.

In-game dialogue and the fact that Armstrong cut off his arm, went Super Saiyan Red, used Monsoon's telekinesis and yeeted him off the building suggest otherwise. That's not very "casual to me". (All QTE and unmissable btw).

I see they had a lot more ideas in the DLC for Armstrong, it's been even longer since I've played that.

Skilled no, more powerful, kinda. Skill does not dictate victory. I just said that Sam has better technique execution, martial arts knowledge which make up skill. Raiden is as skilled as you mentioned, the only one surpassing him in skill being Sam. Only this guy. And that's what also makes him impressive and stand out.

Well I did say it was my own opinion, but it's the truth to say these two are some of the most skilled characters in Metal Gear's history.

Though I think it's safe to say that Raiden is at his best with HF blades, he always uses one after MGS2 huh.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

It can be skipped actually. You just need to goad Sam into attacking more often than not to get those two parries in back to back.

We're good gamers. Is the Raiden used in VS battles played by me? Then I can beat a High 3-A character with him. Thing is, this is not how good you are in the game. These weren't skipped.

Oh you meant that? I didn't think that would be considered a QTE. Usually those involve prompts.

Idk, it's still unmissable.

I'm not saying him being a chatterbox makes him stupid or anything, just that he's really talkative.

But he's still tactically intelligent. And still believes the fight is even, enough to taunt Raiden yet take him seriously.

Oh, yeah, they're all tough battles for Raiden. I think I exaggerated a bit with what I said, but they're all challenges as Raiden progresses through the game.

Ofc, but there is a clear power hierarchy. Raiden is second.

I see they had a lot more ideas in the DLC for Armstrong, it's been even longer since I've played that.

Probably. But still, his behaviour suggests he was going all out, at least in the later phases of the fight.

Well I did say it was my own opinion, but it's the truth to say these two are some of the most skilled characters in Metal Gear's history.

Though I think it's safe to say that Raiden is at his best with HF blades, he always uses one after MGS2 huh.

Indeed they are. Although Sam's skill is the attribute which carries him through every fight, so I'm giving it to him. Raiden has his sheer ******* will, to push through every situation. It's remarkable.

I'm pretty sure Sam always used a blade too, even earlier than Raiden.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

We're good gamers. Is the Raiden used in VS battles played by me? Then I can beat a High 3-A character with him. Thing is, this is not how good you are in the game. These weren't skipped.

I thought you were referring to in game, that it couldn't be skipped, not that you meant it would happen "in lore" either way.

Idk, it's still unmissable.

But he's still tactically intelligent. And still believes the fight is even, enough to taunt Raiden yet take him seriously.

Yeah, I'm saying he talks a lot

Ofc, but there is a clear power hierarchy. Raiden is second.

Probably. But still, his behaviour suggests he was going all out, at least in the later phases of the fight.

Indeed they are. Although Sam's skill is the attribute which carries him through every fight, so I'm giving it to him. Raiden has his sheer ******* will, to push through every situation. It's remarkable.

I'm pretty sure Sam always used a blade too, even earlier than Raiden.

I said that for Raiden himself, not in comparison to anyone else.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

I thought you were referring to in game, that it couldn't be skipped, not that you meant it would happen "in lore" either way.

Eh, I mean, Raiden didn't S-rank Sam, I'm sure of it. At least one QTE failure should have happened

Yeah, I'm saying he talks a lot

Sure he does. Doesn't mean it's a disadvantage in his fighting style

I said that for Raiden himself, not in comparison to anyone else.

Eh, I know Raiden's skill. I was just stating Sam >= Raiden in skill

 

[Lacku]

 

[Baken384]

That was by virtue of overpowering, not outskilling

Didn’t like Sam do the same lol. He only beat Raiden because Raiden’s robot suit was outdated MGS4 Tech

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Didn’t like Sam do the same lol. He only beat Raiden because Raiden’s robot suit was outdated MGS4 Tech

Well it's not exactly the same. There seems to have been a slight update, somewhat. The MGS4 suit is its own.

 

[Baken384]

Well it's not exactly the same. There seems to have been a slight update, somewhat. The MGS4 suit is its own.

It doesn’t change the fact that he was using dogshit equipment compared to Sam’s suit. Literally this is even shown when Raiden couldn’t even damage him during the boss itself.
Plus in terms of skill, even Sam makes note that Raiden wasn’t going balls out with it since hes a more civilized person during that time.

The next time they fought and Raiden got competent tech and finally let it rip, Sam didn’t even stand a chance, there was even an instance in the fight Raiden skill slammed him so hard he disarmed Sam and made him fight him hand to hand.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

Didn’t like Sam do the same lol. He only beat Raiden because Raiden’s robot suit was outdated MGS4 Tech

I do not think Sam grabbed Raiden, broke his visor, tossed him 20 meters in the air and said "Don't **** with this Brazilian".

He overpowered and outskilled him. And he said so himself. Skill does not equal combat effectiveness, you know. They're close, but Sam >= Raiden in skill, because guess what, Sam's the most skilled in the game.

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

It doesn’t change the fact that he was using dogshit equipment compared to Sam’s suit. Literally this is even shown when Raiden couldn’t even damage him during the boss itself.
Plus in terms of skill, even Sam makes note that Raiden wasn’t going balls out with it since hes a more civilized person during that time.

Sam's "very advanced", totally "not outdated" armor, yeah. (Stated to have been outdated gear from 2016 multiple times). Kept using that and gave Raiden a hard time even when the "state of the art" cyborg was there.

Plus in terms of skill, even Sam makes note that Raiden wasn’t going balls out with it since hes a more civilized person during that time.

That ain't skill, being bloodlusted doesn't make me skilled. Me swinging my sword how I want does not mean I'm more skilled than someone who grew up with martial arts since a kid and knows patterns. I mean sure, Raiden grew with combat. But like I said, combat =/= skill.

The next time they fought and Raiden got competent tech and finally let it rip, Sam didn’t even stand a chance, there was even an instance in the fight Raiden skill slammed him so hard he disarmed Sam and made him fight him hand to hand.

Surely he didn't catch him offguard, and the fact that Sam fought him H2H proves Skill for the latter. And the "didn't stand a chance" wasn't really what we were led to believe. Let me remind you Sam constantly slams him on the ground, can flip him and even catch his blade. His moveset is also more precise and skill-focused than Raiden's. Sam was supposed to be a challenge, a parallel to Raiden, not a fodder, yk. Game's way deeper than an S-rank run.

 

[Baken384]

Sam's "very advanced", totally "not outdated" armor, yeah. (Stated to have been outdated gear from 2016 multiple times). Kept using that and gave Raiden a hard time even when the "state of the art" cyborg was there.

Hard time is Debatable, Jetstream Sam at best only managed to make Raiden pant but other than that he wasn’t able to land a single hit on him
Also provide statement proof for outdated armor.

That ain't skill, being bloodlusted doesn't make me skilled. Me swinging my sword how I want does not mean I'm more skilled than someone who grew up with martial arts since a kid and knows patterns. I mean sure, Raiden grew with combat. But like I said, combat =/= skill.

Its a weird thing that it is skill. Jetstream Sam proclaimed that Raiden’s technique lacked something and then later on clarifies that Raiden denies his weapon’s purpose to kill, which makes sense because Raiden talks about how his sword was a tool of justice

Surely he didn't catch him offguard, and the fact that Sam fought him H2H proves Skill for the latter. And the "didn't stand a chance" wasn't really what we were led to believe. Let me remind you Sam constantly slams him on the ground, can flip him and even catch his blade. His moveset is also more precise and skill-focused than Raiden's. Sam was supposed to be a challenge, a parallel to Raiden, not a fodder, yk. Game's way deeper than an S-rank run.

Consistently slamming him to the ground is debatable too because after Raiden destroyed Sam, he wasn’t even damaged at all. Sam being a challenge is fine, but in this instance the moment Raiden got updated technology and had leaned in on being Jack The Ripper, there was no chance Sam had in winning that battle

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

Hard time is Debatable, Jetstream Sam at best only managed to make Raiden pant but other than that he wasn’t able to land a single hit on him

Source for it. Same logic, the only that ever got hit in the game is Sundowner, because he has marks on his armor, and the rest no damaged the fight. I s ranked it. Did he in the canon? You know getting damaged is ugly shit for the rest of the game right?

Also provide statement proof for outdated armor.

I’ll send tomorrow. I definitely found it somewhere. Although I think it has to do with the date he was using it, 2016. He wears the same gear, I think.

Its a weird thing that it is skill. Jetstream Sam proclaimed that Raiden’s technique lacked something and then later on clarifies that Raiden denies his weapon’s purpose to kill, which makes sense because Raiden talks about how his sword was a tool of justice

Yeah. Sam also calls him “self-taught”. Raiden is more effective when he has no restraints. Same for guys like Sundowner. Now Sundowner also outskills Sam. Totally.

Consistently slamming him to the ground is debatable too because after Raiden destroyed Sam, he wasn’t even damaged at all. Sam being a challenge is fine, but in this instance the moment Raiden got updated technology and had leaned in on being Jack The Ripper, there was no chance Sam had in winning that battle

Sam wasn’t even damaged until he got impaled, with that same logic. You don’t need marks on the armor. You can get hit in game. Besides, it would be ugly to damage Raiden. And their exosuits also have HF resistance. It could’ve gone the other way around if Sam wasn’t having the identity crisis in his theme song.