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Meta narrative and Plot Manipulation for Ben 10

Yeah this retcon stuff doesn’t tell me much on plot hax, this is just the writers themselves changing their own lore rather than Alien X changing the plot itself. Unless you got very explicit statements that they literally have full control over the plot like Protago Nick from Rick and Morty where he can quite literally change who’s the main character of the show at will, I’m not seeing it.
 
Hellformer said:
Since they use Celestialsapiens as a justification for the same changes, why would you assume that the ability would change?
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Let's say Vilgax figures are no longer sold, and writers decided to remove Vilgax from the series. They wrote a script Dr. Animo kills Vilgax.

•Who wants to remove Vilgax from the series? Writers.
•What is the reason the writers came up with to remove Vilgax from the series? Dr. Animo kills Vilgax.

Now, by your logic, Dr. Animo should have plot manipulation as a character that writers use to make whatever changes they want to the series?

I'm just asking.
 
ShionAH said:
Quote me on it
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I have to respond too many people over here so instead of searching for that, I'll explain the point in short:
Previously you agreed that the change in descriptive events of the idea of Osmosians is manipulation of the narrative.
Now read this clearly:
  • Change of the ideas of Osmosians = Change made by writers who hold the plot of the story
  • Writers justifying in-verse character for doing so = Same act of changing the plot is done by that character (Its no where explicitly stated that the ability itself changed)
  • Hence via occam's razor, its pretty obvious to go with the safer explanation instead of assuming that the ability itself got changed, especially with zero evidence for that certain claim.
  • You're purposely trying to limit Universe being recreated to RW only, as if the Universe cannot be recreated in such a way that previously established narrative can change.
Theglassman12 said:
Yeah this retcon stuff doesn’t tell me much on plot hax, this is just the writers themselves changing their own lore rather than Alien X changing the plot itself. Unless you got very explicit statements that they literally have full control over the plot
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Statement
The writer who has complete control over the plot, justifies his actions as some in-verse character doing it. I've explained just above for why assuming the ability change wouldn't be valid.
CodeCCLL said:
Let's say Vilgax figures are no longer sold, and writers decided to remove Vilgax from the series. They wrote a script Dr. Animo kills Vilgax.

•Who wants to remove Vilgax from the series? Writers.
•What is the reason the writers came up with to remove Vilgax from the series? Dr. Animo kills Vilgax.

Now, by your logic, Dr. Animo should have plot manipulation as a character that writers use to make whatever changes they want to the series?

I'm just asking.
Click to expand...
Animo attacks his opponents either physically or via his mutated pets which would count as AP so your example is completely irrelevant.
Tomfer said:
This is just writer's having some fun,
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Justifying=/=Having fun
Tomfer said:
it shouldn't be taken seriously or be used at all. Disagree FRA.
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Just like how I am justifying my stance with explanations, which doesn't mean I'm having fun, especially with randoms like you.
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Yeah this doesn’t really read to me like plot manip and more like just reality warping and causality manip from the celestialsapiens being used as an in universe explanation for retcons, not them being able to change the plot. Disagree for me
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Sure, retroactively retconning the previously established narrative is just RW and Causality manip. Make sure to add this in both the pages.
 
Hellformer said:
Animo attacks his opponents either physically or via his mutated pets which would count as AP so your example is completely irrelevant.
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Its actually not irrelevant. The example is basically illustrating how writers use in-story events to justify changes they want to make outside the story (like removing a character). It's not about Animo's physical attacks or how he defeats characters through AP (attack potency). The point is that Animo is being used as a tool by the writers to explain why Vilgax is no longer in the series. That doesn't mean Animo himself has plot manipulation—it means the writers are controlling the plot.
Just like in your argument, Celestialsapiens are being used as an in-story explanation for things the writers are doing outside the story (like retcons). The in-verse actions don't automatically make Celestialsapiens capable of plot manipulation—they're just a device to explain changes. So, the analogy holds.
 
Still not seeing it.

Just because out of universe the writers use them to explain changes and fixes to plot holes doesn’t mean in universe such is the case. They're just using the fact that they’re reality warpers to explain such changes. None of what’s shown requires plot manip to occur.

Let’s use an analogy. Writer has Character A show up in the story. Writer then realizes that Character A previously died and forgot about it and realizes he has to fix it. Character B is then introduced and explained to have the ability to alter time and is the reason why Character A returned. Does Character B have plot manip?
 
Spicy78 said:
if we ever do a list of the seven deadly sins portrayed as vsbattles' verse supporters, ben 10 supporters would DEFINITELY be greed

neutral for now, i want to see how this thread plays out
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What would it be the rest of the other sins, also you aren't aiming high enough, you can't never aim high enough.
I don't think I agree with you, you're not hungry enough. You want the Dreadgods? You want to be the only Monarch? You're satisfied with ruling this world? Well, I'm not. This world doesn't have enough for me. I'm going beyond it. I am not content with this world. I want more. I want...everything. We, will never stop.
 
Forthegood said:
Its actually not irrelevant. The example is basically illustrating how writers use in-story events to justify changes they want to make outside the story (like removing a character). It's not about Animo's physical attacks or how he defeats characters through AP (attack potency). The point is that Animo is being used as a tool by the writers to explain why Vilgax is no longer in the series. That doesn't mean Animo himself has plot manipulation—it means the writers are controlling the plot.
Just like in your argument, Celestialsapiens are being used as an in-story explanation for things the writers are doing outside the story (like retcons). The in-verse actions don't automatically make Celestialsapiens capable of plot manipulation—they're just a device to explain changes. So, the analogy holds.
Click to expand...
Characters like animo do not hold any absolute control over reality in the Ben 10 franchise so the example is still irrelevant. The writers make a direct comparison in power of what they did is actually done by the in-verse character instead of a change in abilility which isn't mentioned in his statement nor in this context
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Still not seeing it.

Just because out of universe the writers use them to explain changes and fixes to plot holes doesn’t mean in universe such is the case. They're just using the fact that they’re reality warpers to explain such changes. None of what’s shown requires plot manip to occur.
Click to expand...
The retcon of the idea of Osmosians wasn't a plothole, instead their own desire to do so.
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Let’s use an analogy. Writer has Character A show up in the story. Writer then realizes that Character A previously died and forgot about it and realizes he has to fix it. Character B is then introduced and explained to have the ability to alter time and is the reason why Character A returned. Does Character B have plot manip?
Click to expand...
Inapplicable analogy, the writer forgetting something is not the case over here. Kindly read my justifications carefully. Coming up with random analogies which don't suit the exact case is invalid.
Firestorm808 said:
I do not believe there are any metafictional elements in the series.
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Metafiction: Fiction in which the author self-consciously alludes to the artificiality or literariness of a work by parodying or departing from novelistic conventions and traditional narrative techniques.
When an author makes narrative changes within a story and justifies those changes by attributing them to an in-universe character with direct comparison instead of change in abilitiy, it counts as metafiction. This is because the author is acknowledging the constructed nature of the story by giving a character the power to influence or alter the narrative itself. In doing so, the story becomes self-aware, and the line between the author's control and the character's control over the narrative blurs. This is a hallmark of metafiction, where the fictional world comments on or interacts with its own narrative framework.

Chadzmuth is aware of changes in art style and character voices, this awareness strengthens the metafictional aspect within the Ben 10. When a character recognizes alterations that exist outside of the in-verse logic (such as changes in animation or voice acting), it demonstrates a clear self-awareness of the fictional nature of their world. This kind of acknowledgment pushes the narrative beyond traditional storytelling, making it an example of metafiction.
@AbaddonTheDisappointment @Theglassman12
I hope you 2 are reading this as well
 
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Hellformer said:
The retcon of the idea of Osmosians wasn't a plothole, instead their own desire to do so.
Click to expand...
I wasn't solely referring to plot holes. I was referring to plot holes and changes to the story as a whole.

Hellformer said:
Inapplicable analogy, the writer forgetting something is not the case over here. Kindly read my justifications carefully. Coming up with random analogies which don't suit the exact case is invalid.
Click to expand...
I was referring to them retconning stuff, including the list you put in the OP. Also I did read the justification and I simply don't see it as compelling enough to give plot manip.

In addition since I don't think anyone's brought this up yet, simply having a metafictional aspect doesn't grant plot manip. You'd have to actively be shown or said to be manipulating the plot itself, not just changing the artstyle
Note that this ability should not be listed just because a power is compared to a trope or otherwise metafiction is used in the story. For instance, a character that is lucky or fated to win (eg. a character recognized to be the protagonist) would only get this power if their luck or destiny is actively described as altering the plot.
Click to expand...

Saying that the retcons would count under this also wouldn't work because changing history in a story doesn't require one to manipulate the plot or narrative. It is literally just causality manip and altering past events. The author using celestialsapiens as an in universe explanation for such retcons is just them using them as an excuse for why the several writers aren't consistent between what stories they each want to write involving the characters.
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
I wasn't solely referring to plot holes. I was referring to plot holes and changes to the story as a whole.
I was referring to them retconning stuff, including the list you put in the OP. Also I did read the justification and I simply don't see it as compelling enough to give plot manip.
Click to expand...
Let's assume that your analogy holds some weight but it still wouldn't work for the following reasons:
  1. Nature of Power: In your analogy, Character B's ability to alter time is introduced solely to resolve a narrative inconsistency. While Character B's action serves a functional purpose, it does not indicate an inherent ability to manipulate the plot or the narrative framework itself. They are simply a device created by the writers to explain the resurrection of Character A.
  2. Character Awareness and Intent: The key difference with the Celestialsapiens is that they demonstrate awareness of their powers and the nature of their existence within the narrative. Their ability to alter reality goes beyond merely fixing plot holes; it serves as a commentary on the nature of storytelling itself. They can change the rules of the universe, which reflects a deeper engagement with the narrative structure.
  3. Self-Referentiality: The actions of the Celestialsapiens often acknowledge their role within the Ben 10 narrative and can influence events in ways that highlight the artificiality of the story. This self-referential quality gives them a metafictional layer that is absent in Character B's function in your analogy, where the goal is purely to correct a mistake.
In summary, while both the Celestialsapiens and your example may involve characters who can alter reality, the distinction lies in the awareness, intent, and self-referential commentary present in the Celestialsapiens' actions. They engage in plot manipulation that reflects a deeper understanding of the narrative, while Character B in your analogy is simply a tool to correct a narrative oversight without any deeper implications on storytelling.
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
In addition since I don't think anyone's brought this up yet, simply having a metafictional aspect doesn't grant plot manip. You'd have to actively be shown or said to be manipulating the plot itself, not just changing the artstyle


Saying that the retcons would count under this also wouldn't work because changing history in a story doesn't require one to manipulate the plot or narrative. It is literally just causality manip and altering past events. The author using celestialsapiens as an in universe explanation for such retcons is just them using them as an excuse for why the several writers aren't consistent between what stories they each want to write involving the characters.
Click to expand...
  1. Metafictional Context and Plot Manipulation: Their powers allow them to reshape the very framework of the story, affecting character motivations, arcs, and even overarching themes. This kind of manipulation is significant and indicates an inherent ability to influence plot direction, not just superficial elements like art style. Changing of voices isn't in such a way that the same voice actor has come up with alternative voice, but instead a completely new voice actor is brought up which aligns with plot manipulation.
  2. Explicit Demonstration of Plot Manipulation: The Celestialsapiens actively demonstrate plot manipulation by changing key events and realities within their universe. For example, when they alter aspects of the plot or characters’ histories, they are not simply correcting inconsistencies; they are fundamentally changing the narrative's course. This demonstrates that they possess control over the plot itself, not just its presentation. Their actions result in tangible outcomes that shift the narrative landscape, fulfilling the requirement of actively manipulating the plot.
  3. Causality Manipulation vs. Narrative Control: While changing past events may appear to be causality manipulation, the distinction lies in the intention and outcome of those changes. Causality manipulation does not inherently involve the character's awareness of the narrative they inhabit. In contrast, the Celestialsapiens act with a meta-awareness that allows them to redefine narrative boundaries, which moves beyond mere causality to actively influencing the plot. They can alter causality while also understanding its implications on the overall story.

By demonstrating both self-awareness and the ability to actively influence key narrative elements, the Celestialsapiens exemplify metafictional and plot manipulation qualities. They do not simply serve as an excuse for inconsistencies; rather, they embody the idea that characters can engage with the storytelling process in a profound way. Their actions reshape the Ben 10 verse, qualifying them for a discussion of plot manipulation that goes beyond the limitations of traditional narrative devices.
 
Cool, the writer, not the character in the story being the one with control over the plot. Nothing you've said in this entire thread has remotely proved plot hax for celestialsapiens, and just saying the writers being the one in control of the story just made my point even clearer that this has nothing to do with metafictional stuff being tinkered by the characters, and just the writers changing their story.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Cool, the writer, not the character in the story being the one with control over the plot. Nothing you've said in this entire thread has remotely proved plot hax for celestialsapiens, and just saying the writers being the one in control of the story just made my point even clearer that this has nothing to do with metafictional stuff being tinkered by the characters, and just the writers changing their story.
Click to expand...
  • The key point is how the characters, specifically the Celestialsapiens, embody that control within the narrative framework. Their powers function as a narrative device that allows for exploration of storytelling itself, which adds a metafictional layer. The presence of characters who can manipulate reality in ways that reflect the writers’ intentions suggests a deeper commentary on narrative construction, rather than a mere alteration made by writers behind the scenes.
  • Your argument exhibits a fallacy of composition. Just because the writers ultimately control the plot doesn’t mean that characters cannot engage in meaningful ways that reflect or comment on that control. The actions of the Celestialsapiens showcase a unique form of character agency that acknowledges the narrative’s constructed nature. Their ability to alter events is not just a writer’s oversight; it serves a specific purpose within the story’s self-awareness.
  • The fact that the Celestialsapiens are aware of their ability to manipulate reality speaks to the metafictional aspect of their existence. Even if the ultimate narrative control rests with the writers, the characters can still participate in a self-referential commentary on the story itself. Their powers facilitate an engagement with narrative elements that goes beyond simple storytelling conventions, highlighting the fluidity of narrative construction.
 
Greenshifter said:
Ah, aight then. Kinda confused about that then. Like everyone acknowledges it’s reality warping (which is already better than it being biological manipulation and mindhax which is currently accepted), now the only thing left to prove is that the reality warping is meta… which it is.
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Again, it simply being “meta” doesn’t automatically give it plot manip

The arguments still aren’t that convincing to me. Unless new evidence comes up this is gonna be my final statement on the matter since I can already tell this isn’t going anywhere and I don’t want to do a constant back and forth since neither of us are likely to convince the other with our arguments.
 
DaReaperMan said:
...

Are you ******* with me?

Is Adam Kutcher gonna come out of my wall and say 'Gotcha Bitch'?

The ENTIRE POINT OF THE CRT is for Plot Manipulation based off of supposed metafictional statements. Firestorm said he doesn't believe there is that kind of screwery in Ben 10.
Click to expand...
Atleast let him reply to whatever responses we have given.
 
REX9097 said:
Of course, no

Where did he say he disagree? Believing doesn't mean it means that he doesn't agree.
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Firestorm mentioned that there are no metafictional elements in the series, He is likely reinforcing the idea that plot manipulation isn't applicable. This gives us an idea that Firestorm disagrees with the idea that Celestialsapiens like Alien X have plot manipulation, as the lack of metafictional elements removes the context needed for plot manipulation. Its as easy as that.
 
Hellformer said:
Atleast let him reply to whatever responses we have given.
Click to expand...
You mean the same arguments given both before and after he made his statement but worded differently?
Forthegood said:
Firestorm mentioned that there are no metafictional elements in the series, He is likely reinforcing the idea that plot manipulation isn't applicable. This gives us an idea that Firestorm disagrees with the idea that Celestialsapiens like Alien X have plot manipulation, as the lack of metafictional elements removes the context needed for plot manipulation. Its as easy as that.
Click to expand...
Said it better then I ever could.
 
Forthegood said:
Firestorm mentioned that there are no metafictional elements in the series, He is likely reinforcing the idea that plot manipulation isn't applicable. This gives us an idea that Firestorm disagrees with the idea that Celestialsapiens like Alien X have plot manipulation, as the lack of metafictional elements removes the context needed for plot manipulation. Its as easy as that.
Click to expand...
"I do not believe" He literally didn't mean to disagree. We can also ask him again because he didn't answer a definitive answer about this literally.
 
REX9097 said:
"I do not believe" He literally didn't mean to disagree. We can also ask him again because he didn't answer a definitive answer about this literally.
Click to expand...
Sure, 'I do not believe' may not be an outright disagreement, but it clearly suggests that Firestorm is leaning towards not recognizing metafictional elements in the Ben 10 series. If they didn’t see any strong evidence for it, that weakens the case for plot manipulation. But feel free to ask again for a more definitive answer—though I think we both know where they stand on this.
 
DaReaperMan said:
You mean the same arguments given both before and after he made his statement but worded differently?
Said it better then I ever could.
Click to expand...
Waiting for him to respond again isn't gonna drop an asteroid to the earth. Bad example but you get my point right?
The actual reason is that the Ben 10 supporters will try to convince him on cord and clear out his contentions so waiting for some time shouldn't be an issue.
 
Hellformer said:
Waiting for him to respond again isn't gonna drop an asteroid to the earth. Bad example but you get my point right?
The actual reason is that the Ben 10 supporters will hound him to agree so waiting for some time shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...
Depends on how long, I say give it a few days. If I'm looking at a day without slaughterhouse and he hasn't responded, I'd say pull the plug.
 
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