Meta narrative and Plot Manipulation for Ben 10

[Spicy78]

if we ever do a list of the seven deadly sins portrayed as vsbattles' verse supporters, ben 10 supporters would DEFINITELY be greed

neutral for now, i want to see how this thread plays out

 

[Forthegood]

You do know that plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping right?

Isn't it the other way around? Not that it matters, they are not synonymous. Plot manipulation specifically refers to the ability to alter the narrative and events of a story directly, whereas reality warping encompasses a broader range of abilities that can affect the fabric of reality without necessarily controlling the story’s plot. For example them changing the art style, voice acting and appearances. We literally have an explanation in verse where those events can be explained as Reality warping.

For instance, if some character reverses time, it's clear cut time manipulation feat or else someone calling it reality warping without diving deeper into the context is invalid.

Reversing time is a specific, concrete ability that clearly fits the definition of time manipulation. This is not 𝗮𝗻𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗴𝗼𝘂𝘀 to Celestialsapiens merely providing narrative justifications for retcons, which lack explicit demonstration of plot control. Just because something can be categorized under reality warping doesn’t mean it inherently possesses the same level of narrative control as plot manipulation.

So I'd suggest you guys to broaden your perspective to see things consistent with each other.

Why does this seem like an attempt to dismiss the distinction between narrative devices and literal abilities? Rather than engaging with the argument at hand and attempt to dismiss the distinction between narrative devices and literal abilities it's essential to differentiate between how a narrative is structured versus simply altering reality. This distinction is crucial to understanding the characters’ capabilities accurately.

It's literally what the uses of PM are. How do ya expect them to say, "hey we perform plot manipulation"

They dont have to explicitly announce it but that doesn’t mean their actions or powers automatically fall into that category.
Plot manipulation is characterized by the ability to actively alter the narrative or events of a story. In the case of Celestialsapiens, while they might have powers that reshape reality, there is no clear evidence that they possess the conscious ability to rewrite the plot or control the storyline itself

"Celestialsapiens change the Universe all the time"
It's a clear cut statement or who else could do it in-verse?

Clear cut statement for reality warping yes not for plot manipulation. The evidence is very lacking.

This literally just confirms that authors use Celestialsapiens as a means to cover up retcons and changes in-verse which is consistent with Dan Riba's statement

Author***

These Retcons can still be explained in the scope of reality warping

1. 𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴: refers to changing the fabric of reality itself—things like altering physical laws, rewriting history, or recreating the universe. Celestialsapiens, particularly Alien X, have demonstrated this, as seen when Alien X recreated the universe after it was destroyed. This ability to reshape reality could easily explain in-universe changes like character backstories or other inconsistencies.

2. 𝗥𝗲𝘁𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀: adjustments to continuity—are often explained in-universe using reality warping. For instance, when a character’s history is altered (like Kevin's backstory), it can be seen as a change in reality rather than the manipulation of the plot structure itself. Alien X’s powers would allow for these kinds of changes without requiring direct control over the narrative.

3. 𝗣𝗹𝗼𝘁 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻: on the other hand, involves a character having direct control over the 𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘆'𝘀 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲, not just reality. A character with plot manipulation would be able to rewrite the events, character motivations, and outcomes consciously. Celestialsapiens haven’t shown this level of control; instead, they’ve shown power over the 𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗲'𝘀 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, which explains retcons as 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗯𝗲𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗿𝗲𝘄𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗻, not the plot.

Hellformer said:
From the plot manipulation page, this where the abilities of Celestialsapiens seem to fit

• Users may be able transforms objects and individuals Reality Warping (sometimes called Reality Alteration or Reality Manipulation) is a term used to describe the ability to manipulate reality
• Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot

𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗶𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗮𝘀 𝘄𝗲𝗹𝗹 considering how limiting the evidence is i dont think this will pass as plot manipulation https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_Warping#:~:text=Reality Warping (sometimes called Reality,any item already considered real.

Reality Warping (sometimes called Reality Alteration or Reality Manipulation) is a term used to describe the ability to manipulate reality itself.

The ability to change reality into how the person in question sees fit, while ignoring the rules of science. Users can alter any item already considered real. Any decision made in the past, any item ever created, any movement, choice, color, atom, or molecule that exists can be changed. All of existence bends to the imagination of a reality warper. Users can rewrite the laws of physics and then change them back in an instant, universes can bend to the will of a reality warper. Examples include erasing things out of existence, granting wishes, creating universes, creating/altering matter, time manipulation, spatial manipulation, etc.

Again, you're trying to merge them as if they're completely same. The writers literally use Celestialsapiens as a tool to justify their plot changes of the story for the readers to make sense about things happening in-verse.

As I said above this can be explained as Reality warping rather than plot manipulation. From what i saw from the video it is explained that when Alien X recreated the "Universe" Dan Riba suggested that the writers used Alien X’s reality-warping abilities as a convenient in-universe explanation for retcons or inconsistencies.

 

[Hellformer]

Isn't it the other way around?

Bruh what? Tell me you didn't even read the RW page lol. Plot manipulation is listed as one of the types of it.

Not that it matters, they are not synonymous. Plot manipulation specifically refers to the ability to alter the narrative and events of a story directly, whereas reality warping encompasses a broader range of abilities that can affect the fabric of reality without necessarily controlling the story’s plot. For example them changing the art style, voice acting and appearances. We literally have an explanation in verse where those events can be explained as Reality warping.

Why are you jumping back to reality warping when the change in continuities between UAF and OV was justified via Celestialsapiens?
"Each show has it's own continuity, you can't just go oh yeah we did justify it a little bit with uh with Omniverse by having the Universe being recreated"
Continuity in this case would include whatever retcons they decided to make and I've linked all of them in the OP that includes the literal plot change in Kevin's backstory.

They dont have to explicitly announce it but that doesn’t mean their actions or powers automatically fall into that category.
Plot manipulation is characterized by the ability to actively alter the narrative or events of a story. In the case of Celestialsapiens, while they might have powers that reshape reality, there is no clear evidence that they possess the conscious ability to rewrite the plot or control the storyline itself

The proofs are quite literally present in the OP. Plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping so you will obviously see the similarity in the overall outcome.
For example, let's say that a character has plot manipulation. And he decides to change the plot of the show by changing the backstory of a certain character which changes the plot of the show .
What would you say it to be? Reality Warping? Despite changing the plot of the show?

Clear cut statement for reality warping yes not for plot manipulation. The evidence is very lacking.

Tell me what do the authors do when they decide to retcon something? Do they warp reality or change the plot of the show? And what if the author blames some in-verse character to make such changes?

Author***

These Retcons can still be explained in the scope of reality warping

1. 𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴: refers to changing the fabric of reality itself—things like altering physical laws, rewriting history, or recreating the universe. Celestialsapiens, particularly Alien X, have demonstrated this, as seen when Alien X recreated the universe after it was destroyed. This ability to reshape reality could easily explain in-universe changes like character backstories or other inconsistencies.

2. 𝗥𝗲𝘁𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀: adjustments to continuity—are often explained in-universe using reality warping. For instance, when a character’s history is altered (like Kevin's backstory), it can be seen as a change in reality rather than the manipulation of the plot structure itself. Alien X’s powers would allow for these kinds of changes without requiring direct control over the narrative.

3. 𝗣𝗹𝗼𝘁 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻: on the other hand, involves a character having direct control over the 𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘆'𝘀 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲, not just reality. A character with plot manipulation would be able to rewrite the events, character motivations, and outcomes consciously. Celestialsapiens haven’t shown this level of control; instead, they’ve shown power over the 𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗲'𝘀 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, which explains retcons as 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗯𝗲𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗿𝗲𝘄𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗻, not the plot.

As explained with the prior example, you're simply confusing yourself with both the abilities. To repeat myself with some additions, Kevin's change in backstory changes results in an entirely new arc (rooters arc) which affects the continuity of the series and characters involved in it.

𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗶𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗮𝘀 𝘄𝗲𝗹𝗹 considering how limiting the evidence it wont pass as plot manipulation https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_Warping#:~:text=Reality Warping (sometimes called Reality,any item already considered real.

It doesn't say anything regarding the change of plot of and continuity of the stories which Celestialsapiens are able to manipulate

As I said above this can be explained as Reality warping rather than plot manipulation. From what i saw from the video it is explained that when Alien X recreated the "Universe" Dan Riba suggested that the writers used Alien X’s reality-warping abilities as a convenient in-universe explanation for retcons or inconsistencies.

I think I've covered this twice above

 

[Forthegood]

Bruh what? Tell me you didn't even read the RW page lol. Plot manipulation is listed as one of the types of it.

Well I did I just didn't go to the type section on the page as I mentioned before "not that it matters"

Why are you jumping back to reality warping when the change in continuities between UAF and OV was justified via Celestialsapiens?

I’m bringing up reality warping because that’s exactly what Alien X’s abilities represent. The Celestialsapiens are known to alter reality, not directly manipulate the plot. The changes between UAF and OV can be explained as alterations to the structure of the universe itself (reality), not as conscious rewrites of the story or plot manipulation.

"Each show has it's own continuity, you can't just go oh yeah we did justify it a little bit with uh with Omniverse by having the Universe being recreated"

This statement actually supports the idea that different continuities exist because of reality warping, not plot manipulation. When they mention the universe being recreated in Omniverse, they are referring to the shaping of reality, which would naturally lead to differences in continuity, such as Kevin’s backstory. But this is still reality warping, not direct control over the plot or narrative structure.

Continuity in this case would include whatever retcons they decided to make and I've linked all of them in the OP that includes the literal plot change in Kevin's backstory.

Yes, the continuity includes the retcons, but retcons explained through reality warping don’t automatically equate to plot manipulation. Kevin’s backstory changing can easily be explained by Alien X altering reality—changing how the past unfolded, but not rewriting the narrative structure or plot mechanics themselves. Alien X isn’t controlling the story’s script; he’s altering the events within the universe's reality.

The proofs are quite literally present in the OP. Plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping so you will obviously see the similarity in the overall outcome.

While it’s true that plot manipulation can be considered a subset of reality warping, the critical distinction lies in the intent and scope of the power. Plot manipulation specifically means consciously altering the narrative or events of the story, whereas reality warping affects the universe’s structure and rules, which can indirectly change the plot but isn’t the same as directly rewriting it. Just because the outcome appears similar doesn’t mean the mechanism or intent is the same.

For example, let's say that a character has plot manipulation. And he decides to change the plot of the show by changing the backstory of a certain character which changes the plot of the show .
What would you say it to be? Reality Warping? Despite changing the plot of the show?

This is a false dilemma or false equivalence fallacy. You are representing the situation as though changing a character’s backstory (through reality warping) must equate to plot manipulation. However, changing the backstory through reality warping means altering the facts or events of the past, not necessarily altering the story's structure or narrative in a direct, conscious manner. In other words, the backstory change can be a result of reality manipulation, but it doesn’t automatically imply control over the plot itself.

In this context, Alien X’s reality warping could change how Kevin’s backstory unfolded, but that’s still reality warping because it’s altering the universe’s history. Plot manipulation, on the other hand, would require direct control over how the storyline and narrative progress consciously—Alien X hasn’t shown this kind of ability.

Tell me what do the authors do when they decide to retcon something? Do they warp reality or change the plot of the show? And what if the author blames some in-verse character to make such changes?

When authors implement a retcon, they are changing aspects of the continuity of the story—sometimes rewriting character backstories, events, or details that previously existed. This doesn’t equate to plot manipulation in the context of the story’s universe. Instead, it’s a narrative decision made by the authors, not something an in-universe character is doing but when the author blames it on the characters that are within the story there could be multiple interpretation, if an in-verse explanation is there we go by it and as we know the Celestialsapien race keep on changing Ben's universe which can be explained by the retcons and at tha we have a very solid reason why this is happening because they are warping reality.

If the author uses an in-universe character to explain the retcons, such as Alien X or the Celestialsapiens, it means the character is being used as a tool to explain those changes in-universe. However, this still points to reality warping—the character alters the facts of reality (like recreating the universe or changing the past)—but it’s not the same as directly rewriting the plot or controlling the narrative structure of the story. Justifying retcons through a character like Alien X doesn’t automatically mean they have the power to manipulate the plot itself; rather, they alter reality, and those changes ripple through the story.

As explained with the prior example, you're simply confusing yourself with both the abilities.

𝗦𝘁𝗼𝗽 𝘀𝗮𝘆𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗶 𝗮𝗺 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗳𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗺𝘆𝘀𝗲𝗹𝗳, I’m literally distinguishing between two different concepts. Reality warping reshapes events within the universe itself (like altering history), while plot manipulation directly changes the story's structure. Alien X’s demonstrated abilities align with reality warping, not controlling the narrative like an author would.

To repeat myself with some additions, Kevin's change in backstory changes results in an entirely new arc (rooters arc) which affects the continuity of the series and characters involved in it.

Kevin’s backstory changing and introducing a new arc fits within the framework of reality warping. It changes past events in the universe, which then causes new events to unfold. This is typical of retcons explained by reality warping—altering a character’s history changes the present reality, but it doesn’t mean Alien X or Celestialsapiens are directly manipulating the plot. They’re altering the universe’s history, not acting as the story’s authors. The arc is simply a consequence of the warped reality, not evidence of plot.

 

[Hellformer]

Well I did I just didn't go to the type section on the page as I mentioned before "not that it matters"

How does it not matter? This the very reason why you're getting confused.

Let's take a small example. Consider we have a list of batsmen (cricket). Some of them are openers while some aren't. Hence the opening skills would obviously imply that they are actually batsmen so you cannot say that good openers aren't batsmen. Similarly if the methodolgy and outcomes of plot manipulation match with rw, you cannot claim that plot manipulation isn't done over here.

I’m bringing up reality warping because that’s exactly what Alien X’s abilities represent. The Celestialsapiens are known to alter reality, not directly manipulate the plot. The changes between UAF and OV can be explained as alterations to the structure of the universe itself (reality), not as conscious rewrites of the story or plot manipulation.

That's quite literally circular reasoning since you're coming back to your claim despite it being refuted.

This statement actually supports the idea that different continuities exist because of reality warping, not plot manipulation. When they mention the universe being recreated in Omniverse, they are referring to the shaping of reality, which would naturally lead to differences in continuity, such as Kevin’s backstory. But this is still reality warping, not direct control over the plot or narrative structure.

Yes, the continuity includes the retcons, but retcons explained through reality warping don’t automatically equate to plot manipulation. Kevin’s backstory changing can easily be explained by Alien X altering reality—changing how the past unfolded, but not rewriting the narrative structure or plot mechanics themselves. Alien X isn’t controlling the story’s script; he’s altering the events within the universe's reality.

Okay so let me summarise your point. You agree that retcons are made by Celestialsapiens which results in changing the past of the characters thereby giving new story(s). But then you claim it to be done via reality warping while forgetting that pm is a subset of rw hence it is not something to be worried about as explain in the above example. So basically this is an auto concession since you fail to understand the abilities and I'm not surprised because you initially thought that rw is a subset or pm lol.

While it’s true that plot manipulation can be considered a subset of reality warping,

Its not "can be considered", instead it's factually established in the page. So happy realisation bud.

the critical distinction lies in the intent and scope of the power. Plot manipulation specifically means consciously altering the narrative or events of the story,

So you're saying that narrative events are not the same as plot/continuity of the series? If that's the case then you're contradicting yourself.

Just because the outcome appears similar doesn’t mean the mechanism or intent is the same.

What? Intent?? Bruh

This is a false dilemma or false equivalence fallacy. You are representing the situation as though changing a character’s backstory (through reality warping)

I never claimed it was done via reality warping

must equate to plot manipulation.

Yes the actual plot of the story and characters being changed is the reason behind it

However, changing the backstory through reality warping means altering the facts or events of the past,

I'm not arguing rw

not necessarily altering the story's structure

It did though. Which is resulted in Rooters arc so you're contradicting yourself again

In this context, Alien X’s reality warping could change how Kevin’s backstory unfolded, but that’s still reality warping because it’s altering the universe’s history.

Altering the history in such a way that it arises in changing the plot of the series thereby establishing different narrative and giving new arcs.

Plot manipulation, on the other hand, would require direct control over how the storyline and narrative progress consciously—Alien X hasn’t shown this kind of ability.

Galaxy brain meme moment.

When authors implement a retcon, they are changing aspects of the continuity of the story—sometimes rewriting character backstories, events, or details that previously existed. This doesn’t equate to plot manipulation in the context of the story’s universe. Instead, it’s a narrative decision

So something that results in change of plot of the story isn't plot manipulation aight

𝗦𝘁𝗼𝗽 𝘀𝗮𝘆𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗶 𝗮𝗺 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗳𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗺𝘆𝘀𝗲𝗹𝗳, I’m literally distinguishing between two different concepts. Reality warping reshapes events within the universe itself (like altering history), while plot manipulation directly changes the story's structure. Alien X’s demonstrated abilities align with reality warping, not controlling the narrative like an author would.

Sorry to say but you are still confusing yourself. You've claimed such bad takes that I cannot describe it.

Kevin’s backstory changing and introducing new arc fits within the framework of reality warping. It changes past events in the universe, which then causes new events to unfold. This is typical of retcons explained by reality warping

So plot manipulation cannot retcon anything? Is this what your claim is?
Like literally you agree with the retcons taking place but failing to understand.

 

[Hellformer]

And if you're gonna reply with the same thing then you can just agree to disagree currently and better wait for some staff to show up (I've asked firestorm for his input so yeah)

 

[Sdjlakjh]

And if you're gonna reply with the same thing then you can just agree to disagree currently and better wait for some staff to show up (I've asked firestorm for his input so yeah)

Seems like a tiring matter (Try ask FaxualScaler to make his vsbw acc to assist here)

 

[Hellformer]

Seems like a tiring matter (Try ask FaxualScaler to make his vsbw acc to assist here)

Nah I'm handling it currently, greenshifter will pull up soon (probably).

 

[Baabasaplar95]

Disagree FRA

 

[Hellformer]

Disagree FRA

Your opinion doesn't matter but K

 

[Hellformer]

And if you're gonna reply with the same thing then you can just agree to disagree currently and better wait for some staff to show up (I've asked firestorm for his input so yeah)

@Forthegood I hope you're reading this instead of wasting time in typing long essays

 

[RigelBR7]

Hard disagree

 

[Sdjlakjh]

Hard disagree

Can you at least explain why?

 

[Forthegood]

@Forthegood I hope you're reading this instead of wasting time in typing long essays

Oh, trust me, I’m reading your points—though they don’t exactly take much time to process. I’ve just been busy with something while addressing the arguments that you presented which doesn’t really "hold up", but hey, someone’s gotta do it.

 

[Hellformer]

Oh, trust me, I’m reading your points—though they don’t exactly take much time to process. I’ve just been busy with something while addressing the arguments that you presented which doesn’t really "hold up", but hey, someone’s gotta do it.

Getting the same from a staff member would hold some weight to the thread.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

The changes between UAF and OV can be explained as alterations to the structure of the universe itself (reality), not as conscious rewrites of the story or plot manipulation.

So Kevin's backstory also changed because structure of universe changed huh ?
But aren't changing someone's history and changing structure of universe different things ?

 

[ShionAH]

But aren't changing someone's history and changing structure of universe different things ?

No, because changing someones history is causality manipulation which is in universe

 

[Hellformer]

No, because changing someones history is causality manipulation which is in universe

Change of Kevin’s backstory was altering the previously established plot and continuity in UAF. Don't come up with random headcanons.

 

[Forthegood]

Well this has been fun but this is my concluding argument whatever happens, happens at the end of the day "our votes don't matter" hopefully the admins make the right call.

"why does it not matter? This the very reason why you're getting confused."

Because the argument here is about Reality Warping VS Plot Manipulation and Plot Manipulation is what you think it is while it's the opposite. Me giving you the very definition of both abilities should tell you that I am not confused this gives me the idea that you're not actually trying to take on the counter argumentis

"Let's take a small example. Consider we have a list of batsmen (cricket). Some of them are openers while some aren't. Hence the opening skills would obviously imply that they are actually batsmen so you cannot say that good openers aren't batsmen. Similarly if the methodolgy and outcomes of plot manipulation match with rw, you cannot claim that plot manipulation isn't done over here"(using vsbattle on a tablet is annoying)"

Your 𝗮𝗻𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗴𝘆 using the batsmen and openers doesn't hold up for a few reasons:

𝗠𝗶𝘀𝗹𝗲𝗮𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗔𝗻𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗴𝘆: The comparison between batsmen and openers suggests that if a subset (openers) belongs to a larger category (batsmen), then all properties of the larger category must apply to the subset. However, plot manipulation and reality warping are not inherently related in that manner. Just because one can result in changes that resemble the other does not mean they are the same or that one can substitute for the other.

𝗗𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗗𝗲𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗶𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀, 𝗣𝗹𝗼𝘁 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 are defined differently within the context of storytelling. 𝗣𝗹𝗼𝘁 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 specifically involves changing the 𝗻𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗶𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 and events of a story directly, while 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝘄𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 involves altering the fabric of reality without direct control over the plot. The outcomes might appear similar, but the 𝗺𝗲𝗰𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗶𝘀𝗺𝘀 and 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 behind them are fundamentally different.

𝗖𝗮𝘂𝘀𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝘃𝘀 𝗖𝗼𝗿𝗿𝗲𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻: Your analogy conflates correlation with causation. Just because reality warping may lead to changes in the plot doesn't mean the plot was manipulated. In Ben 10, the alterations to continuity can be viewed as consequences of reality being reshaped rather than evidence of a character directly manipulating the plot.

This analogy fails to establish a valid connection between reality warping and plot manipulation because it oversimplifies the distinction between the two concepts and ignores the need for explicit evidence of conscious plot control.

That's quite literally circular reasoning since you're coming back to your claim despite it being refuted.

My argument is not circular reasoning, and here's why

I'm giving you a clear distinction, So far I have been making a specific distinction between reality warping and plot manipulation, asserting that Alien X's abilities represent the former. Circular reasoning usually occurs when the conclusion is included in the premise without independent support. In this case, I am providing logical reasoning to differentiate the two concepts rather than restating my original claim.

Evidence-Based Reasoning, my reasoning is based on the established definitions of the abilities in question. I am not just looping back to my initial claim; am explaining how the nature of Alien X’s powers fits more appropriately within the framework of reality warping rather than plot manipulation, which requires explicit control over the narrative.

Responding to Refutation, Instead of ignoring your previous points, I am addressing the changes between UAF and OV by explaining how they can be understood through reality warping. If my response were circular, I would be failing to engage with your arguments, but I am actively providing a counter-argument based on a different interpretation of the same events.

As for claiming I am using circular reasoning, it sounds like you might need to brush up on your understanding of logical fallacies—maybe while you're at it, you can learn that "circular" doesn’t just mean going in circles like a hamster on a wheel.

Okay so let me summarise your point. You agree that retcons are made by Celestialsapiens which results in changing the past of the characters thereby giving new story(s). But then you claim it to be done via reality warping while forgetting that pm is a subset of rw hence it is not something to be worried about as explain in the above example. So basically this is an auto concession since you fail to understand the abilities and I'm not surprised because you initially thought that rw is a subset or pm lol.

First of all, let’s clarify what you’re missing in your summary: just because retcons occur doesn't mean they equate to plot manipulation. This isn’t an “auto concession”:

You're misunderstanding the abilities you're conflating the concepts of reality warping and plot manipulation. While it's true that plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping, that doesn't automatically mean every instance of reality warping must be categorized as plot manipulation. Just because one is a subset doesn’t mean all examples fall under it—otherwise, we'd all be considering squirrels as a type of dog.

Me asserting that the changes in character backstories, like Kevin’s, can be explained by Alien X’s reality-warping abilities. It’s not an auto concession; it’s a nuanced distinction about how powers are applied. Alien X's alterations reshape reality without giving him direct control over narrative mechanics. Just because a character can change the past doesn’t imply they’re rewriting the script; they’re merely altering what has already happened

It’s essential to keep the definitions clear. If we start mixing terms without proper context, we might as well start calling a toaster a coffee maker.

So no, this isn’t an auto concession.

Its not "can be considered", instead it's factually established in the page. So happy realisation bud.

OMG Thank you so much for that enlightening revelation! I had no idea we were working with facts here—what a groundbreaking discovery! So, according to your profound understanding of the page, plot manipulation is indeed a subset of reality warping. But just because it's established doesn’t mean every instance of reality warping automatically qualifies as plot manipulation. I mean, it’s great that you’re so well-versed in the definitions, but let’s not forget that just because a category exists, it doesn’t mean every example neatly fits into it. Maybe next time, we can dive into the delightful nuances of these terms.

So you're saying that narrative events are not the same as plot/continuity of the series? If that's the case then you're contradicting yourself.

Actually I am not contradicting myself at all. You’re confusing the terms “narrative” and “continuity” as if they’re completely interchangeable, which is not the case. Plot Manipulation is about consciously controlling the narrative—this includes directly influencing how events in a story unfold, manipulating character motivations, and determining outcomes. In other words, plot manipulation impacts the storytelling itself, not just the environment in which the story happens.

Continuity refers to the consistency of the universe's events and history. If something changes within the universe, like Kevin’s backstory, that’s a shift in reality (via reality warping). However, just because the continuity changes, doesn’t mean someone is literally controlling the plot or writing the story.

So no there is no contradiction there—just a misunderstanding on your part.

What? Intent?? Bruh

More evidence of you misunderstanding the point

When I talk about intent in the context of plot manipulation, I am referring to a character or entity actively and consciously deciding to change the story’s events—like an author deciding to change what happens next in a story. This is what makes plot manipulation unique. It’s not just about what happens but why it happens. The character must be aware that they are influencing the narrative, not just changing things within their own universe’s rules.

You're missing the nuances. The intent matters because it separates plot manipulation from reality warping. Reality warping changes things in the structure of the universe, like physics or history, but it’s done without necessarily knowing or intending to alter the actual narrative or plot. The result might look the same (the universe or a character's backstory changes), but the mechanism and purpose behind the change are different.

Just because the outcome (like retcons or backstory changes) is similar doesn’t mean the cause (intentional control of the plot) is the same. Reality warping can cause retcons, but it's about changing reality, not controlling the narrative.

I never claimed it was done via reality warping

reread what I said there I am not saying that you are saying that this was done via Reality warping(more evidence of you not understanding)

Yes the actual plot of the story and characters being changed is the reason behind it

No its not

I'm not arguing rw

This is not even what I said nor implied

It did though. Which is resulted in Rooters arc so you're contradicting yourself again

Ah yes, another classic 'contradiction' that exists only in your imagination. Changing the events in-universe, like creating the Rooters arc, doesn’t magically equal plot manipulation. It’s still reality warping, where the events of history are altered, but no one is sitting there rewriting the plot like an author with a pen. So unless Alien X is secretly a writer, this isn’t the contradiction you're looking for.

Altering the history in such a way that it arises in changing the plot of the series thereby establishing different narrative and giving new arcs.

Okay? What the hell is this even?

Galaxy brain meme moment.

I'll take this as your way of conceding

So something that results in change of plot of the story isn't plot manipulation aight

Oh, absolutely! Because clearly, every time an author changes a detail, we should just assume it's plot manipulation. Who needs narrative decisions when we can just call every retcon "plot manipulation," right? By that logic, anytime a new costume design shows up, that's plot manipulation too? But seriously, changing aspects of continuity is just adjusting the details of the story, not rewriting the entire script or controlling the events in the plot. There’s a big difference between shifting background info and actually controlling the plot.

Sorry to say but you are still confusing yourself. You've claimed such bad takes that I cannot describe it.

This is deflection and oh, I'm sure if I asked you to describe these 'bad takes,' you'd come up empty-handed. It's almost like you just threw that out there without anything to back it up. But hey, if saying 'you’re confusing yourself' is your go-to, I guess that says more about the argument than my so-called 'bad takes.'"

So plot manipulation cannot retcon anything? Is this what your claim is?
Like literally you agree with the retcons taking place but failing to understand.

Oh, of course, plot manipulation is the ultimate tool for fixing everything. Retcons, dinner reservations, and maybe even my Wi-Fi connection, right? But seriously, just because retcons happen doesn’t mean they automatically fall under plot manipulation. Reality warping explains it just fine without giving Alien X a writer’s pen. I had my fun and honestly I am not neutral I straight up disagree so this will be my last response as I said before so yeah hopefully the admins make the right call.

 

[Forthegood]

So Kevin's backstory also changed because structure of universe changed huh ?
But aren't changing someone's history and changing structure of universe different things ?

Did you purposefully ignore the bracket after structure of universe ?

 

[Lort15]

Bro what the hell is that propaganda

 

[ShionAH]

Don't come up with random headcanons.

This is literally an application of causality manip, changing history. Sorry but this is just wank that is being scretched and forced, just like most of the other things on the profile lol

 

[Hellformer]

However, plot manipulation and reality warping are not inherently related in that manner.

Inherently not related in that manner? Which means you're again going against pm being a subset of rw which is what makes my analogy sensible.

Just because one can result in changes that resemble the other does not mean they are the same or that one can substitute for the other.

𝗗𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗗𝗲𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗶𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀, 𝗣𝗹𝗼𝘁 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗥𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗪𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 are defined differently within the context of storytelling. 𝗣𝗹𝗼𝘁 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 specifically involves changing the 𝗻𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗶𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 and events of a story directly

Narrative: the description of events in a story.
So you're claiming that the literal change in previously established descriptive events of a certain character isn't plot manipulation?

, while 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝘄𝗮𝗿𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 involves altering the fabric of reality without direct control over the plot.

The authors literally blame Celestialsapiens for changes in plot as a means to justify their changes in the narrative. So if talking about in-verse, Celestialsapiens are the ones who are supposed to have direct control over the show. It had already been established that they have absolute control over reality which is what the plot manipulation page demands:
Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality.

I'm giving you a clear distinction, So far I have been making a specific distinction between reality warping and plot manipulation, asserting that Alien X's abilities represent the former. Circular reasoning usually occurs when the conclusion is included in the premise without independent support. In this case, I am providing logical reasoning to differentiate the two concepts rather than restating my original claim.

Your reasoning is quite literally trying to merge the both the abilities instead of trying to make a logical distinction.

You're misunderstanding the abilities you're conflating the concepts of reality warping and plot manipulation. While it's true that plot manipulation is a subset of reality warping, that doesn't automatically mean every instance of reality warping must be categorized as plot manipulation.

This isn't what I claimed.

Me asserting that the changes in character backstories, like Kevin’s, can be explained by Alien X’s reality-warping abilities. It’s not an auto concession; it’s a nuanced distinction about how powers are applied. Alien X's alterations reshape reality without giving him direct control over narrative mechanics.

I think you were demanding Celestialsapiens to have absolute control over reality which something that even the page demands for so yeah.

Just because a character can change the past doesn’t imply they’re rewriting the script;

Not just changing the past, but instead retroactively changing the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.

So no, this isn’t an auto concession.

It is

OMG Thank you so much for that enlightening revelation! I had no idea we were working with facts here—what a groundbreaking discovery! So, according to your profound understanding of the page, plot manipulation is indeed a subset of reality warping.

Glad you realised it

But just because it's established doesn’t mean every instance of reality warping automatically qualifies as plot manipulation.

Not what I claimed.

I mean, it’s great that you’re so well-versed in the definitions, but let’s not forget that just because a category exists, it doesn’t mean every example neatly fits into it. Maybe next time, we can dive into the delightful nuances of these terms.

Sure

Actually I am not contradicting myself at all. You’re confusing the terms “narrative” and “continuity” as if they’re completely interchangeable, which is not the case.

Narrative: the description of events in a story.
Continuity: In fiction, continuity is the consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the audience over some period of time

So overall, both these terms are synonymous and they mean that descriptive events and the consistency of characters and plot as seen by the audience.

In other words, plot manipulation impacts the storytelling itself, not just the environment in which the story happens.

The story telling of Kevin’s past in OV was done in such a way that there didn't exist any plothole because the previously established events were re-explained as false memories so yes it did impact the story telling. And as said earlier, Ben remembers his past self as his OV design despite being aware of Chadzmuth's statement which also implies that the story telling was indeed affected by the change.

When I talk about intent in the context of plot manipulation, I am referring to a character or entity actively and consciously deciding to change the story’s events—like an author deciding to change what happens next in a story.

"For all we know Celestialsapiens are out there changing the Universe at this very moment"

This is what makes plot manipulation unique. It’s not just about what happens but why it happens. The character must be aware that they are influencing the narrative,

so you're inserting the claimed that Celestialsapiens aren't aware of them making the changes?

not just changing things within their own universe’s rules.

Celestialsapiens don't have their "own universe". They reside in Forge of Creation which is in The Space Beyond/Omniverse.

Just because the outcome (like retcons or backstory changes) is similar doesn’t mean the cause (intentional control of the plot) is the same.

again claiming that Celestialsapiens are doing it unintentionally without any evidence

reread what I said there I am not saying you're saying that this was done via Reality warping(more evidence of you not understanding)

This something that I'm supposed to say

Ah yes, another classic 'contradiction' that exists only in your imagination. Changing the events in-universe, like creating the Rooters arc,

Removing the previously established narrative to add a new one, as simple as that.

I'll take this as your way of conceding

If it helps you warp your mind's reality confusing between both the meanings

Oh, absolutely! Because clearly, every time an author changes a detail, we should just assume it's plot manipulation.

repeating my point again, not just a detail but instead a previously established narrative.

This is deflection and oh, I'm sure if I asked you to describe these 'bad takes,' you'd come up empty-handed. It's almost like you just threw that out there without anything to back it up. But hey, if saying 'you’re confusing yourself' is your go-to, I guess that says more about the argument than my so-called 'bad takes.'"

Sure I could but not in this thread for the sake of avoiding derailment

Oh, of course, plot manipulation is the ultimate tool for fixing everything. Retcons, dinner reservations, and maybe even my Wi-Fi connection, right?

Straight up headcanon as I've already written down that in which possible uses the ability of Celestialsapiens fit in

so this will be my last response as I said before so yeah hopefully the admins make the right call.

K

This is literally an application of causality manip, changing history. Sorry but this is just wank that is being scretched and forced, just like most of the other things on the profile lol

Ah yeah this is causality manipulation
Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot

 

[ShionAH]

I guess teleporting is also plot manipulation since it changes the characters location in the plot? Time manipulation just slows or controls the narrative then. Everything is plot manipulation, peak powerscaling yall

Causality manipulations one of appicable powers is changing and affecting the past events but whatever

 

[Hellformer]

I guess teleporting is also plot manipulation since it changes the characters location in the plot?

Never claimed this, I've specifically used a sentence from plot manipulation page itself

 

[Greenshifter]

I agree with the OP, not sure what’s contentious about it?

Like reality warping on a meta level is essentially plot manipulation so

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah none of this remotely sounds like plot manipulation, the voice changing or the look changing barely has anything to do with metafictional or metanarrative things being altered. Disagree

 

[Hellformer]

Yeah none of this remotely sounds like plot manipulation, the voice changing or the look changing barely has anything to do with metafictional or metanarrative things being altered. Disagree

Voice and look changing is not the only thing being argued, instead the very establied narrative of the osmosians was changed in the Omniverse series.
In short, the idea of Osmosians in UAF was shown as a species which absorbs life form and energy but then in the later series, this narrative was retconned as false memories of Kevin.

 

[Theglassman12]

Where’s it stated their established narratives are being changed?

 

[Hellformer]

Where’s it stated their established narratives are being changed?

Aggregor was described as an osmosian (same as the species of Kevin) in UAF series. Him being an osmosian was also mentioned in a guidebook. But this idea was later retconned in the Omniverse series, dropping the previously established narrative.
Edit: here's the scan of aggregor being described as an osmosian. This establishes the descriptive events of UAF series as a villain from osmosian specie

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah the writers retconned it, not Alien X

 

[Hellformer]

Yeah the writers retconned it, not Alien X

The writers blame Celestialsapiens as their justification for such

 

[ShionAH]

Writers aren't literally saying Celestiasapiens changed the very fabric of the plot and the story itself, they are saying they used the celestialsapiens ability to warp reality to cleverly justify why there are changes to the character voices and etc.

You should put @Theglassman12 on disagree since he is staff and unlike us his vote matters

 

[Hellformer]

Writers aren't literally saying Celestiasapiens changed the very fabric of the plot and the story itself,

Here
Each show has it's continuity and descriptive events which is the change what Celestialsapiens are being blamed for

they are saying they used the celestialsapiens ability to warp reality to cleverly justify why there are changes to the character voices and etc.

Like reality warping on a meta level is essentially plot manipulation so

You should put @Theglassman12 on disagree since he is staff and unlike us his vote matters

I'll convince him

 

[ShionAH]

"we did justify it a little bit"

they are saying they used the celestialsapiens ability to warp reality to cleverly justify why there are changes

 

[Hellformer]

"we did justify it a little bit"

My point still stands

Like reality warping on a meta level is essentially plot manipulation so

 

[ShionAH]

They are not saying Celestialsapiens are beings beyond the fiction of ben 10 being capable of changing the very meta story, they are fricking saying they used their abilities to justify the changes. Justify here means they are using them as EXCUSES, they are not "blaming them" which is you trying to scretch and make the evidence seem better than it is which is like just a pretty petty move

 

[Hellformer]

they are fricking saying they used their abilities to justify the changes.

And that ability is plot manipulation which is something that the writers do i.e. changing of plot. Since they use Celestialsapiens as a justification for the same changes, why would you assume that the ability would change? That's fallacious

Justify here means they are using them as EXCUSES, they are not "blaming them" which is you trying to scretch and make the evidence seem better than it is which is like just a pretty petty move

It's straightforward enough if you take out your bias

 

[Hellformer]

Anyways I'm a go to sleep, will respond later on

 

[ShionAH]

And that ability is plot manipulation which is something that the writers do i.e. changing of plot. Since they use Celestialsapiens as a justification for the same changes, why would you assume that the ability would change?

Because they are specifically using one of Alien Xs Reality Warping feats to justify it (the universe being recreated)

Anyways, doesnt matter if you believe you can change glassmans mind. You should still count his vote until he changes his mind, this is a rule iirc