Meliodas and Zeldris Vs Naruto and Sasuke

[VsReferee]

If meli gets caught he aint getting out, genjutsu can last years and doesn't need eye contact, sasuke has the best in the verse.
Also sasuke has dura neg that he loves to spam.

Getting hurt will knock you out of one

Dude..litterally on his page:

"they are sight based abilities, so if the opponent can obscure the user's vision using extremely thick mist/dust[14] or blind them, the Sharingan's abilities will be rendered useless. Likewise if the opponent is too fast for the Sharingan to visually keep track of them, they will be safe from its abilities. Sharingan Genjutsu requires eye contact, so if the opponent is able to avoid eye contact or is blind, they will be able to avoid Sharingan Genjutsu entirely."

Going to sleep btw

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Dude..litterally on his page:

"they are sight based abilities, so if the opponent can obscure the user's vision using extremely thick mist/dust[14] or blind them, the Sharingan's abilities will be rendered useless. Likewise if the opponent is too fast for the Sharingan to visually keep track of them, they will be safe from its abilities. Sharingan Genjutsu requires eye contact, so if the opponent is able to avoid eye contact or is blind, they will be able to avoid Sharingan Genjutsu entirely."

Going to sleep btw

Bro thats base sharingan. MS Sharingan is different and has been excepted as such, it doesn't require mutual eye contact only for meliodas to look not also sasuke.
Rinnegan can see through extremely thick mist/dusk in fact is was able to see through entire barriers in pain arc, and sasuke has a better one mixed with a EMS sharingan.
Like little-none of those weaknesses of regular genjutsu users would apply to MS sharingan users and definitely not rinnesharingan users like sasuke, madara etc.

 

[TauanVictor]

Meldris has no counters for Layered Mind, Sleep, Perception, Illusion and Paralysis Hax. Naruto watches the fight sitting in a chair.

If it's not already clear, I vote for the shinobi duo.

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Meldris has no counters for Layered Mind, Sleep, Perception, Illusion and Paralysis Hax. Naruto watches the fight sitting in a chair.

If it's not already clear, I vote for the shinobi duo.

1 vote, but i just want to make it clear that this is EMS sasuke not boruto era sasuke so his Mind Manip aint as potent

 

[TauanVictor]

1 vote, but i just want to make it clear that this is EMS sasuke not boruto era sasuke so his Mind Manip aint as potent

It is powerful enough to beat both tbf.

 

[YoutubeForKing]

It is powerful enough to beat both tbf.

Apparently third key meliodas has at least 5 layers resistance according to speedster so he would resist.

 

[TauanVictor]

Apparently third key meliodas has at least 5 layers resistance according to speedster so he would resist.

What is the layer chain?

 

[YoutubeForKing]

I'm not sure. I've asked the main dude doing the upgrades Makai64100 but i've yet to get a response.
Im just taking what they say as true until someone debunks it

 

[Makai641001]

I know but i doub't its nearly as layered as Genjutsu mind hax in naruto and genjutsu even allows memory manip which i don't think anyone in NNT can resist.

They Would need to cast it first which would be difficult against amped Meli And Zel
Also Genjutsu are based on perturbing senses Which Is rendered irrelevant by their innate resistance to purgatory effects Cath tried to manipulate base Meli memories Using parallel timelines to alter his mind but couldn’t do It
Inner worlds IN NNT can’t be modified either since unknown thoughts concepts or intruders are ejected when trying to interfere With the inner world

 

[Makai641001]

+ if it’s VE Zel and Mel can’t even be affected by any energy type they null It with Negative energy that have multiple layers depending on how strong is a demon overall And It worked against any type of magic soul hax neggs Amps neggs etc…

 

[VsReferee]

+ if it’s VE Zel and Mel can’t even be affected by any energy type they null It with Negative energy that have multiple layers depending on how strong is a demon overall And It worked against any type of magic soul hax neggs Amps neggs etc…

Question: in the manga if Iirc hendrikson or someone else said that Meliodas has negative power. What does this mean? It was season 1 Meliodas i think.

 

[VsReferee]

Bro thats base sharingan. MS Sharingan is different and has been excepted as such, it doesn't require mutual eye contact only for meliodas to look not also sasuke.
Rinnegan can see through extremely thick mist/dusk in fact is was able to see through entire barriers in pain arc, and sasuke has a better one mixed with a EMS sharingan.
Like little-none of those weaknesses of regular genjutsu users would apply to MS sharingan users and definitely not rinnesharingan users like sasuke, madara etc.

I have read other Pages. I still read that eye contact is needed for MS genjutsu. I didn't read anything that it can last even through physical pain. Can you post a link? I may have read the wrong ones.

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Also Genjutsu are based on perturbing senses Which Is rendered irrelevant by their innate resistance to purgatory effects Cath tried to manipulate base Meli memories Using parallel timelines to alter his mind but couldn’t do It

How potent is this.
Genjutsu's ability to do this is layered and gets stronger with each layer.
Sure he can resist Cath trying to do this to him but why does this mean he can resist sasuke?
I've asked for the layers and i've gotten no respone from multiple different NNT supporters.
Saying that he can resist sasuke's cause he's "immune" would just be a NLF

 

[VsReferee]

How potent is this.
Genjutsu's ability to do this is layered and gets stronger with each layer.
Sure he can resist Cath trying to do this to him but why does this mean he can resist sasuke?
I've asked for the layers and i've gotten no respone from multiple different NNT supporters.
Saying that he can resist sasuke's cause he's "immune" would just be a NLF

I can't provide those, Makai can.
Now send me a link EMS Sasuke's profile about.
I failed to find those claims you made:

1. Genjustsu can last years (I do know that one can live decades in a genjutsu but is actually a few moments in real life)
2. Sasuke can cast genjutsu without eye contact

 

[Makai641001]

How potent is this.
Genjutsu's ability to do this is layered and gets stronger with each layer.
Sure he can resist Cath trying to do this to him but why does this mean he can resist sasuke?
I've asked for the layers and i've gotten no respone from multiple different NNT supporters.
Saying that he can resist sasuke's cause he's "immune" would just be a NLF

Even if it was able to affect them their inner world would negate the effects
+ immunity ain’t the same thing as resistance it would cut the ability before it can touch them

 

[YoutubeForKing]

+ immunity ain’t the same thing as resistance it would cut the ability before it can touch them

That would be a no limits fallacy. If way see he's immune then he's simply immune to the potency in his verse, giving him that resistance not total immunity regardless.

Even if it was able to affect them their inner world would negate the effects

Why? Genjutsu isn't just sense manip it can also literally delete your memories what stops sasuke from just doing that.

 

[Makai641001]

That would be a no limits fallacy. If way see he's immune then he's simply immune to the potency in his verse, giving him that resistance not total immunity regardless.

In order to work genjutsu would need to touch them first them nullifying it before means they don’t get affected especially with VE stat amps neggs soul hax neggs

Why? Genjutsu isn't just sense manip it can also literally delete your memories what stops sasuke from just doing that.

Interferences in their inner psyches are deleted no matter the type of interference + they can fight without emotions or even Memories ON stomps

 

[YoutubeForKing]

In order to work genjutsu would need to touch them first them nullifying it before means they don’t get affected especially with VE stat amps neggs soul hax neggs

Genjutsu is the act of pushing your chakra then manipulating them. Increasing the layers would increase all of genjutsu in general.
He cannot resist it and genjutsu isn't soul hax so it's irrelevant.

Interferences in their inner psyches are deleted no matter the type of interference + they can fight without emotions or even Memories ON stomps

No limits fallacy. If he only deleted mind manip of a certain layer theres nothing proving he can delete genjutsu of sasuke's potency.

 

[Majinere566]

No limits fallacy. If he only deleted mind manip of a certain layer theres nothing proving he can delete genjutsu of sasuke's potency.

How exactly is it nlf?

 

[YoutubeForKing]

How exactly is it nlf?

Destroying a genjutsu scales you to it. People in naruto do it all the time.
Just because Meliodas is immune to that shit in NNT it doesn't at all prove to me he'd be immune to it in Naruto/Boruto until someone can explain his layers.

It's like if i were to say luffy is immune to all physical damage because the only way to hurt him physically (blunt) in his verse is with haki, and then we he puts on haki it'll be the same as if he had no haki.
Its just a stupid NLF

 

[Makai641001]

Genjutsu is the act of pushing your chakra then manipulating them. Increasing the layers would increase all of genjutsu in general.
He cannot resist it and genjutsu isn't soul hax so it's irrelevant.

Same chakra that won’t touch them
due to them negating it first

No limits fallacy. If he only deleted mind manip of a certain layer theres nothing proving he can delete genjutsu of sasuke's potency.

That’s not a NLF it would be a NLF if it wasn’t established factually that anything no matter how powerful would get nulled anyway if it was interacting with their inner world Resistance to magic neggs amps neggs too

Genjutsu falls under Yin release so the energy wave would need to bypass the layers of immunity to magic + negative energy in order to touch
It control senses and guess who doesn’t need senses since they developped a 6th one and are unaffected by their senses getting controlled or altered? Meli and Zel (and ban and Dk etc…)

Basic illusions =< Dark talisman big boobie girl < Angalaad < Gowther illusion < Dreyfus that got out of it < True Gowther < Purgatory < Cath/Chaos < Galand With memories < Cath/Chaos base powers reinforced < alternate possibilities illusion Meli got out of the last layer quickly

To give more details Angalaad resist dark talisman illusions but couldn’t see Gowther illusion in the village Gowther puppet illusions weren’t powerful enough to control Dreyfus the entire verse or almost all of them except the gods Chaos etc… were mind maniped by true Gowther only a few ppl knew about it at that point since it was most likely an exchange to keep balance in their game Which is confirmed by Meli’s statement in CBL < Purgatory that doesn’t Just manipulate but destroy Completely the concept of senses < Cath and Chaos since they use the energy that first created Purgatory and affect Purgatory survivors Using it < Galand that broke out of the mind manip for a few seconds < amped mind manip that completely brainwashed him again < Entire alternate universes possibilities that Meli broke out of

So ye Meli and Zel resist but they wouldn’t even need to resist since it wouldn’t even touch them in the first place

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Same chakra that won’t touch them
due to them negating it first
So ye Meli and Zel resist but they wouldn’t even need to resist since it wouldn’t even touch them in the first place

I don't think they'd negate it before it touches them. Unless its through layered power null or something but if thats the case they simply negate all chakra in general and this is a stomp and should be closed.

Are they simply negating people pushing magic in them? Or are they layered power nulling it cause those are two entirely different things. If its the first then genjutsu layers also would increase the chakra and make it layered, if its the second one then its a stomp cause they negate everything with verse = unless the opponent has resistance to layered power null.

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Same chakra that won’t touch them
due to them negating it first

I don't agree with this, I dont believe they would be able to negate the chakra from genjutsu as its layered.

That’s not a NLF it would be a NLF if it wasn’t established factually that anything no matter how powerful would get nulled anyway if it was interacting with their inner world Resistance to magic neggs amps neggs too

It's a NLF. That would only apply in verse if characters outside the verse can negate this or scale past it then they would get neg it.

Basic illusions =< Dark talisman big boobie girl < Angalaad < Gowther illusion < Dreyfus that got out of it < True Gowther < Purgatory < Cath/Chaos < Galand With memories < Cath/Chaos base powers reinforced < alternate possibilities illusion Meli got out of the last layer quickly

To give more details Angalaad resist dark talisman illusions but couldn’t see Gowther illusion in the village Gowther puppet illusions weren’t powerful enough to control Dreyfus the entire verse or almost all of them except the gods Chaos etc… were mind maniped by true Gowther only a few ppl knew about it at that point since it was most likely an exchange to keep balance in their game Which is confirmed by Meli’s statement in CBL < Purgatory that doesn’t Just manipulate but destroy Completely the concept of senses < Cath and Chaos since they use the energy that first created Purgatory and affect Purgatory survivors Using it < Galand that broke out of the mind manip for a few seconds < amped mind manip that completely brainwashed him again < Entire alternate universes possibilities that Meli broke out of

Make a thread explaining this in more detail and then add it to the verse page.
Why is purgetory>True Gowthers Manip?
Why is Dark Talismans above basic Illusion?
Yea the galand one is stupid I completely disagree with it, he resisted it for a second then immediantly got caught. I don't agree with it being enough for a whole different layer since you could just argue it was wearing off and galand didn't even fully break out of it.
Why is the mind manip that Meli got out of as strong as the one that cought galand?

 

[Makai641001]

I don't think they'd negate it before it touches them. Unless its through layered power null or something but if thats the case they simply negate all chakra in general and this is a stomp and should be closed.

Are they simply negating people pushing magic in them? Or are they layered power nulling it cause those are two entirely different things. If its the first then genjutsu layers also would increase the chakra and make it layered, if its the second one then its a stomp cause they negate everything with verse = unless the opponent has resistance to layered power null.

They negate every form of chakra that’s the point yeah it shouldn’t be closed it’s more like it shouldn’t have been open

+ The Genjutsu even if We made the assumption about chakra quantity (Which is wrong imo) the layers of immunity to magic + powernull
AND the résistances are too high

It is a stomp

 

[Makai641001]

I don't agree with this, I dont believe they would be able to negate the chakra from genjutsu as its layered.

They would. Their power null is layered too + i Still see absolutely 0 correlation between the quantity of Chakra and how it’s layered the Genjutsu would need to touch first in order to apply it’s layers

It's a NLF. That would only apply in verse if characters outside the verse can negate this or scale past it then they would get neg it.

Immunity is immunity i explained the layers anyway

Make a thread explaining this in more detail and then add it to the verse page.

We are already making abilities related threads but you won’t stop spamming vs threads so the little Time i spend on vsbw is more about answering your circular arguments than helping in NNT révisions + i don’t think we need pages for this NNT already has lots of pages just like the Heat scaling chain We argue for it in the VS itself

Why is purgetory>True Gowthers Manip?

Destroy everything senses related is considered the peak of illusions/would need you to transcend the concept of senses

Why is Dark Talismans above basic Illusion?

It’s >= Angallad was able to see Both but it was far easier with Edlin basic illusions iirc that’s a possible layer that lacks proof imo

Yea the galand one is stupid I completely disagree with it, he resisted it for a second then immediantly got caught. I don't agree with it being enough for a whole different layer since you could just argue it was wearing off and galand didn't even fully break out of it.

He broke out of it completely and recovered his memories.
Chaos sensed it and bypassed the Resistance that’s the definition of layer

Why is the mind manip that Meli got out of as strong as the one that cought galand?

Chaos based Cath absorbed part of his power and could use them she could cast entire possible future universes on his ass

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Chaos based Cath absorbed part of his power and could use them she could cast entire possible future universes on his ass

Why does it mean its stronger than Arthurs

 

[Makai641001]

Why does it mean its stronger than Arthurs

Their base illusions are the ones in Which you keep an empress on reality
The alternate world thing was potent enough to affect Chaos himself even though he broke out of it

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Their base illusions are the ones in Which you keep an empress on reality
The alternate world thing was potent enough to affect Chaos himself even though he broke out of it

So your reasoning for it being another layer is that it affected chaos even though he literally just broke out of it?
Thats not enough for another layer especially since he got affected by it, breaking out of an illusion means you can resist it, and resisting something doesn't mean your fully immune you can still be put in another illusion

 

[VsReferee]

I am confused what version of Meliodas is discussed. Well, I will just say my thing

Since genjutsu works by disrupting one's flow of "chakra", the victim can still escape it by raising his power above the potency of the genjutsu casted. But by that time, I think it would be too late. But not if the opponent already does that before the cast of a genjutsu.
For example, EMS genjutsu logically wouldn't work on Guy with gates released. It would be too hard to disrupt that flow of chakra, unless EMS has shown greater feats. Or it would work but Sasuke would experience resitance.
Physical pain is another counter as stated in the manga. Physical pain from outside disrupts the flow. I also haven't read anything about EMS genjutsu > physical pain from outside.

Assuming Genjutsu would work (energy equalized):
Sasuke puts Meldris in a genjutsu and proceeds to kill them. Meldris would get out of genjutsu because the pain disrupts it. To sasuke's surprise, they won't die. After this:

1. Zeldris activates god, genjutsu won't be able to work again
2. Meliodas (and Zeldris maybe) amps his darkness

Now is the question if EMS will still be able to put amped Meliodas in a genjutsu. Here is an example of Meliodas' darkness:

1. Merlin's teleportation wouldn't work.
2. Destroying it with magic wouldn't work
3. Even the perfect cube wouldn't work

Simply because Meliodas didn't want them to interfere.

This is darkness not even fully fused with the commandments. There were several missing (Mael had 4 and Melascula 1).
To conclude, Meliodas' darkness has the ability to block magic and even teleportation. Is EMS potent enough to disrupt this? Don't think so.

The tailed beast have a massive amount of chakra but simply have no/little resitance against genjutsu. They could be controlled with base sharingan genjutsu. A Jinchūriki stands much better chance but it is not the beast that is in a genjutsu. The beast inside the user can easily (I assume) disrupt the genjutsu cast on them.

In case of assault mode Meliodas (before the merging of commandments). Meliodas broke Melascula's cocoon of darkness along with the surrounding by transforming into AM (at the start of the transformation). The cocoon of darkness was stated to be strong enough that only Zeldris could break it with DK's magic which nullifies all magic. This same Meliodas pinned down both Zel and Esta to the ground. If he wanted he could even rob the power Zel lent from his father. Darkness of even this Meliodas is potent. Assault mode allow Meliodas to use the full measure of his darkness. I really doubt that EMS Sasuke would easily put this Meliodas in genjutsu by disturbing this darkness. Even if Sasuke is able to, he would experience some good resistance, but Meliodas would soon notice and highten it.

I don't think it's an easy win through genjutsu. Far from it.

Now, do they have other wincons?

 

[Makai641001]

I am confused what version of Meliodas is discussed. Well, I will just say my thing

Since genjutsu works by disrupting one's flow of "chakra", the victim can still escape it by raising his power above the potency of the genjutsu casted. But by that time, I think it would be too late. But not if the opponent already does that before the cast of a genjutsu.
For example, EMS genjutsu logically wouldn't work on Guy with gates released. It would be too hard to disrupt that flow of chakra, unless EMS has shown greater feats. Or it would work but Sasuke would experience resitance.
Physical pain is another counter as stated in the manga. Physical pain from outside disrupts the flow. I also haven't read anything about EMS genjutsu > physical pain from outside.

Assuming Genjutsu would work (energy equalized):
Sasuke puts Meldris in a genjutsu and proceeds to kill them. Meldris would get out of genjutsu because the pain disrupts it. To sasuke's surprise, they won't die. After this:

1. Zeldris activates god, genjutsu won't be able to work again
2. Meliodas (and Zeldris maybe) amps his darkness

Now is the question if EMS will still be able to put amped Meliodas in a genjutsu. Here is an example of Meliodas' darkness:

1. Merlin's teleportation wouldn't work.
2. Destroying it with magic wouldn't work
3. Even the perfect cube wouldn't work

Simply because Meliodas didn't want them to interfere.

This is darkness not even fully fused with the commandments. There were several missing (Mael had 4 and Melascula 1).
To conclude, Meliodas' darkness has the ability to block magic and even teleportation. Is EMS potent enough to disrupt this? Don't think so.

The tailed beast have a massive amount of chakra but simply have no/little resitance against genjutsu. They could be controlled with base sharingan genjutsu. A Jinchūriki stands much better chance but it is not the beast that is in a genjutsu. The beast inside the user can easily (I assume) disrupt the genjutsu cast on them.

In case of assault mode Meliodas (before the merging of commandments). Meliodas broke Melascula's cocoon of darkness along with the surrounding by transforming into AM (at the start of the transformation). The cocoon of darkness was stated to be strong enough that only Zeldris could break it with DK's magic which nullifies all magic. This same Meliodas pinned down both Zel and Esta to the ground. If he wanted he could even rob the power Zel lent from his father. Darkness of even this Meliodas is potent. Assault mode allow Meliodas to use the full measure of his darkness. I really doubt that EMS Sasuke would easily put this Meliodas in genjutsu by disturbing this darkness. Even if Sasuke is able to, he would experience some good resistance, but Meliodas would soon notice and highten it.

I don't think it's an easy win through genjutsu. Far from it.

Now, do they have other wincons?

It would get nullified From meters yeah

So your reasoning for it being another layer is that it affected chaos even though he literally just broke out of it?
Thats not enough for another layer especially since he got affected by it, breaking out of an illusion means you can resist it, and resisting something doesn't mean your fully immune you can still be put in another illusion

He resists his own power fully an other illusion affecting him means it’s more powerful than things that doesn’t