Megami Tensei - The Expansive, Collective CRT Part II

[Urshani]

There's problems via a lot of factors like P3 cast being threatened by normal ammunition. Sequences like that that make the characters out to be human and not immeasurable speed or OUTERVERSAL.

ammo got buffed up to be Outer, easy. Although it would pose a problem for universal HGR for all Persona Users. UNLESS he somehow observed himself into being able to get killed by gun

There's also cutscene issues like the Phantom Thieves needing a car to traverse long distance, Ryuji's sprint for the life boats, etc that work against various stat logic. Really choosing to ignore these is basically just willful ignorance. But I'll admit these factors get weird with PQ, there's still a lot of problems when it comes to modern persona when you look at the Canon events themselves.

Basically it just looks really ******* weird to have Ryuji have immeasurable speed when he has to sprint a distance to grab a life boat

How many anti-feats in comparison to actual feats? If there are more anti-feats, then that's a problem.

 

[Urshani]

It's already been agreed upon in a different CRT that the Persona cast will get a key for their ordinary, human selves, so I don't see an issue.

I think the feats he's talking about are when they have access to their powers.

 

[Accelerate420]

It's already been agreed upon in a different CRT that the Persona cast will get a key for their ordinary, human selves, so I don't see an issue.

Persona 3 users have access to their Persona's at any time so there's no need for one. You could theoretically tier their Persona separately which, personally, is what I would do when giving power ratings for modern persona.

ammo got buffed up to be Outer, easy. Although it would pose a problem for universal HGR for all Persona Users. UNLESS he somehow observed himself into being able to get killed by gun

How many anti-feats in comparison to actual feats? If there are more anti-feats, then that's a problem.

You can't buff ammo to be outerversal when Takaya's gun has no evidence of being special or an exception . It's just a straight up revolver that put Shinji in the hospital, or worse depending on your version. P5 you can sure because it's cognitive.

There's a lot of anti-feats especially for the speed of the characters themselves in modern persona even in the Meta-verse itself. SEES needing to navigate small distances like a love hotel and a train also make me doubt their speed is what it says. I could maybe compile them in a separate thread but it's just something I wanted to bring up.

 

[Urshani]

There's a lot of anti-feats especially for the speed of the characters themselves in modern persona even in the Meta-verse itself. SEES needing to navigate small distances like a love hotel and a train also make me doubt their speed is what it says. I could maybe compile them in a separate thread but it's just something I wanted to bring up.

Understandable, I'll also help you with the thread if you want

 

[Accelerate420]

Understandable, I'll also help you with the thread if you want

Personally a work around for this is simply not touching the persona 3-5 users attributes at all except for maybe mild speed feats, and instead give these stats to their persona's themselves. Like them dodging attacks in general is a video game mechanic that you can dismiss as such like Claire being bitten by zombies and not turning from RE.

Another thing you can do is just simply not connect them. Let's face it, P1/P2 are pretty much completely disconnected from p3-p5 that they're enough of their own thing. And if we're clearly being picky with anti-feat recognitions, we can surely be picky with scaling too for accuracy, so p2 users quite frankly can be as 1-A as they want but I don't believe p3-p5 characters can be tiered similarly. They're quite different.

I think modern Persona needs to be thought of a little more carefully and possibly persona as a whole in this situation for fairness.

I may take you up on that offer in the future but right now I just wanted to draw attention to the glaring flaws in cross scaling these series together.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This kind of talk still exists? Responding soon, this myth is going to die.

 

[Accelerate420]

Not sure I'd call cutscenes myths but feel free to convince me.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Wow lol.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This argument that Modern Persona is so unfathomably below P1-2, and SMT as a whole is very possibly the most dishonest, dare I even say, rat argument I've come across in this fandom, when everything in story is contrary to these claims. I'm going to shut down all of them, and I don't ever want to see them rear their head again.

There's problems via a lot of factors like P3 cast being threatened by normal ammunition. Sequences like that that make the characters out to be human and not immeasurable speed or OUTERVERSAL. For P4/P5 it's less so of a problem because their powers are limited to their worlds so you have some logic wiggle room I guess. There's also cutscene issues like the Phantom Thieves needing a car to traverse long distance, Ryuji's sprint for the life boats, etc that work against various stat logic. Really choosing to ignore these is basically just willful ignorance. But I'll admit these factors get weird with PQ, there's still a lot of problems when it comes to modern persona when you look at the Canon events themselves.

In and of itself, this is just blatantly ignoring context. They do not have their Personas out, so why would they gain their respective buffs? If they did, why couldn't Joker just strong arm Kamoshida the moment he got back to the real world? Only a select amount of buffs come from not having a Persona out, and none of them are related to physical stats. Of course Shinjiro died, neither Takaya nor Shinjiro activated their Personas, as far as that point is concerned, they were no more than barely amped humans. Their "powers" being limited to the real world is also a complete lie. Shinjiro had no desire to rest Ken's anger, his dialogue will tell you that.. They were in the Dark Hour, he very well could've slapped the piss out of his mouth if he so wanted. The rest of my statement can just be reiterated for the rest of it, why would Persona-users constantly have their powers open in the real world, that's basic storytelling 101, if they traveled across the globe with immeasurable speed then what is the point of playing. Referring to the Mementos driving, that's irrelevant, considering the fact that it's quite literally part of the Collective Unconscious.

There's a lot of anti-feats especially for the speed of the characters themselves in modern persona even in the Meta-verse itself. SEES needing to navigate small distances like a love hotel and a train also make me doubt their speed is what it says. I could maybe compile them in a separate thread but it's just something I wanted to bring up.

Are you even aware we already debunked immeasurable speed in the first key for all Persona protagonists? They scale infinitely lower, and only by mid-game to late-game does that statistic return, this is literally a non-factor.

Another thing you can do is just simply not connect them. Let's face it, P1/P2 are pretty much completely disconnected from p3-p5 that they're enough of their own thing. And if we're clearly being picky with anti-feat recognitions, we can surely be picky with scaling too for accuracy, so p2 users quite frankly can be as 1-A as they want but I don't believe p3-p5 characters can be tiered similarly. They're quite different.

The concept that P1/2 is not connected is so unbelievably laced with complete fabrication that the fandom truly does earn it's reputation of not playing the games. From the very BEGINNING of Persona 3, Igor refers to Tatsuya's existence, verbatim stating "it's been years since we had a guest". In the King's Game, Chie mentions the Kuzunoha Clan have movies about them. Why does this matter? Because Shin Megami Tensei as a whole is connected to Persona, it's in the first thread, it's literally the first goddamn section. P2 doesn't even support that fraudulent point, considering Tamaki, from Shin Megami Tensei if... shows up in Persona 2. During the events of Persona 5, Katsuya is referenced as the detective with "red sunglasses".

I don't believe p3-p5 characters can be tiered similarly.

Do you mean how Nyx and Erebus reside in the Monado Mandala, the origin of souls, their Domain?? Where Nyarlathotep is directly mentioned, with the same phrasing by multiple Persona 2 characters, including Nyarlathotep him-*******-self? Yaldabaoth fused the Kadath Mandala, the origin of Gods, Persons, and Demons with the real world? Or the fact how Adam Kadmon is the source and destination, and deific form that Philemon himself states as perfect and whole?

This entire misconception that P3-5 is leagues, eons, and dimensions below anything SMT/P1/P2 has to offer is complete and utter bullshit with no basis. I very well understand this will likely come off as direct, hostile, even. But I do not care. 7 months of planning and revising this verse from the bottom up with people that poured endless work into it with me, and I am, under no circumstance, going to allow uneducated and ignorant cosmological gatekeeping to bar that, which was already torn down in the first thread, in the first section.

 

[Accelerate420]

Interesting reply. Give me a moment.

 

[Accelerate420]

This argument that Modern Persona is so unfathomably below P1-2, and SMT as a whole is very possibly the most dishonest, dare I even say, rat argument I've come across in this fandom, when everything in story is contrary to these claims. I'm going to shut down all of them, and I don't ever want to see them rear their head again.

In and of itself, this is just blatantly ignoring context. They do not have their Personas out, so why would they gain their respective buffs? If they did, why couldn't Joker just strong arm Kamoshida the moment he got back to the real world? Only a select amount of buffs come from not having a Persona out, and none of them are related to physical stats. Of course Shinjiro died, neither Takaya nor Shinjiro activated their Personas, as far as that point is concerned, they were no more than barely amped humans. Their "powers" being limited to the real world is also a complete lie. Shinjiro had no desire to rest Ken's anger, his dialogue will tell you that.. They were in the Dark Hour, he very well could've slapped the piss out of his mouth if he so wanted. The rest of my statement can just be reiterated for the rest of it, why would Persona-users constantly have their powers open in the real world, that's basic storytelling 101, if they traveled across the globe with immeasurable speed then what is the point of playing. Referring to the Mementos driving, that's irrelevant, considering the fact that it's quite literally part of the Collective Unconscious.

So I have no idea what you think I said but you've got several things twisted here. Obviously Joker can't manhandle anyone in the real world because their powers don't work in the real world. Persona 3 users ARE the canonically exception (besides P1/P2) because Evokers are used to force their persona's out, but like STREGA and Shinjiro they can still manifest in the real world without the evoker. The Evoker is just more controlled so their psyche doesn't end up attacking themselves (Chidori is attacked by her own persona in the real world). But this is where P3 becomes separate from the others. Every Persona user uses different means to invoke their Persona, and P3 characters went through special circumstances to even be able to accomplish these things. Things that P4 and P5 users have not gone through. So even if in THEORY they could manifest in reality, P4 and P5 users do not share this same trait as mechanically they invoke their persona's differently and receive them differently as well.

The Dark Hour has no bearing on this, and you miss the point that they still clearly travel an on-foot distance in both Tartarus and the real world during the Dark Hour. I would think that if you could more ANYWHEN in time and space you'd want to like...maybe use that to even prevent The Fall from happening to begin with. Like the whole point of immeasurable speed is that your speed can't be accounted for in even a time sense, so you could theoretically be in anywhere and anywhen, but Aigis and literally no one else could go back in time during The Fall and help Makoto. The whole point of The Answer was that they had to move on because they can't change the past.

And again, if they had immeasurable speed at any given moment of the game, they wouldn't really need to look for or travel to find the Shadows, let alone even climb Tartarus in general. They could just hit barrier after barrier instantly. So like, why bother with the climb if they can be anywhere/anywhen?

It doesn't make sense. Especially when you then go into the TV world aspect of things and they aren't just blasting through Magatsu-Mandala to punch Adachi in the face. Let me remind you that the standards for Immeasurable ARE THIS :

Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right.

Even if you argued 'Well they only got these at mid-game/end-game' That still leaves conundrums and plot holes to this argument. Because again, SEES lacked the ability to change the past and had to live for the future. Because...well...they cannot move in that sort of way.

I agree that it's storytelling though, you can't have a game without...well, a game. But you also need to respect the LIMITATIONS of the story and what they allow the characters to do and not do. Again, The Answer would be extremely different contextually if they were capable of speed shit like this. If you're willing to overlook narrative things to push a rating, you aren't exactly doing the site justice as it's an indexing site. Meaning canon takes precedence over everything and I have never seen any Persona user go back in time to prevent a tragedy or the future. It's just not a thing because this factor does not exist.

And as for your Mementos thing, I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to Futaba's Palace, where Palaces are stated to be isolated domains away from Mementos.

Are you even aware we already debunked immeasurable speed in the first key for all Persona protagonists? They scale infinitely lower, and only by mid-game to late-game does that statistic return, this is literally a non-factor.

But you don't understand, it doesn't make sense contextually even in the verse itself to be put on them in general. The biggest exception you can MAYBE permit is P5's Metaverse stuff but even that I'm not sure I'd bite.

The concept that P1/2 is not connected is so unbelievably laced with complete fabrication that the fandom truly does earn it's reputation of not playing the games. From the very BEGINNING of Persona 3, Igor refers to Tatsuya's existence, verbatim stating "it's been years since we had a guest". In the King's Game, Chie mentions the Kuzunoha Clan have movies about them. Why does this matter? Because Shin Megami Tensei as a whole is connected to Persona, it's in the first thread, it's literally the first goddamn section. P2 doesn't even support that fraudulent point, considering Tamaki, from Shin Megami Tensei if... shows up in Persona 2. During the events of Persona 5, Katsuya is referenced as the detective with "red sunglasses".

It is connected, but that doesn't make the ratings legitimate. It's like scaling Ryougi from KnK to Nero because she fought her in Extra. Their connections are there but it doesn't constitute that Persona NYX = SMT NYX. Plenty of verses have these same off rules when it comes to their spin-offs.
And again, Tatsuya's ratings would have no impact nor relation to P3-P5 so he can be as 1-A as he wants.

Do you mean how Nyx and Erebus reside in the Monado Mandala, the origin of souls, their Domain??

So here's something interesting. I'm just going to say it, Nyx from P3 /=/ SMT NYX.

For one, their origins are different.

The Persona 3 Club Book explains that Nyx is a celestial-body sized alien called a Planet Eater. Nyx crashed into prehistoric Earth where her body and psyche were separated, with her body becoming the Moon and her psyche staying on Earth.

In order to speak about this, we need to take a step back and look at our planet’s prehistory first. In ancient times, there existed a gigantic living being, the size of a celestial body, drifting through outer space in a dormant state. We call such a being a “Star Eater”. At a certain point in time, this being collided with a planet which had only just begun to develop its first forms of life - earth. The chance of this happening was merely one in several Million - no, Billion. In any case, this event can be seen as the first contact between Nyx and earth’s lifeforms.

So, Nyx was born in extraterrestrial space? It seems miraculous that the planet was not destroyed by this kind of impact.

Of course, you are correct. The matter Nyx was composed of existed under physical laws which defy those of earth. Even the mere collision alone brought tremendous results with itself. In any case, the debris broken off in the shock of the collision entered earth’s orbit and became our moon. As Nyx’ psyche, which exists in a wave-like state, was left behind on earth, her physical body was enclosed in the moon alongside the debris. However, you see, the psyche was the far more problematic part of this being to begin with.

I'm not a myth-buff but this doesn't sound like Nyx's mythology origins. We can assume even Erebus falls under different origins too. Granted this does make Nyx more impressive than what is presented in the game itself and she is sealed in the collective unconscious. However, it's important to note regardless of how you tier the collective unconscious, no one actually / defeats / Nyx. They battle their Avatar (Ryoji) and even Makoto's only option was to seal Nyx away even further.

It is quite the irony of fate that Nyx, who was meant to embody the demise of all life on earth, ended up becoming the catalyst that allowed for earth’s living beings to evolve into lifeforms with complex, sentient psyches. It should be mentioned that the greek goddess “Nyx”, who our Nyx takes her name from, is portrayed as a maternal goddess, embodying a powerful Mother-Archetype. So you see, the knowledge of the truth that in a way we are all Nyx’ children has probably been with people since old times.

Quite literally stating the Nyx in P3 is just a namesake. Thus, this is one of the crux of why backscaling is difficult, because if P3 does it, who's to say P4 and P5 don't interpret these figures differently from their SMT counterparts? They are, after all, written by different writers too. I would rather tier them by what exists in Persona itself and not by what we know of SMT.

Now Idk what you consider Erebus to be but If Makoto is anywhere near elizabeth's level to fight her without getting merk'd and couldn't defeat Nyx's own Avatar, and Elizabeth can one shot Erebus, I think it's safe to say Erebus is quite weaker than Nyx itself. Especially since SEES could defeat it, granted, with Aigis's new powers in addition.

Where Nyarlathotep is directly mentioned, with the same phrasing by multiple Persona 2 characters, including Nyarlathotep him-*******-self? Yaldabaoth fused the Kadath Mandala, the origin of Gods, Persons, and Demons with the real world? Or the fact how Adam Kadmon is the source and destination, and deific form that Philemon himself states as perfect and whole?

Again, with the precedence in P3 being shown that not all Gods = SMT gods, it's presumptuous to assume Adam Kadmon = SMT and isn't just a different take on it.
This also lends doubt to whether their cosmology is really the same or if they differ. At worst you get the Persona universe itself having a different cosmology but still within the SMT multiverse. And I mean, it's not like that doesn't already exist with DeSu with Polaris and Canopus (to an extent).

All I'm saying is there's evidence that suggests room for doubt.

This entire misconception that P3-5 is leagues, eons, and dimensions below anything SMT/P1/P2 has to offer is complete and utter bullshit with no basis. I very well understand this will likely come off as direct, hostile, even. But I do not care. 7 months of planning and revising this verse from the bottom up with people that poured endless work into it with me, and I am, under no circumstance, going to allow uneducated and ignorant cosmological gatekeeping to bar that, which was already torn down in the first thread, in the first section.

Chill dude. I already told you to begin with that I'm fine with SMT and everything else scaling to it, but Persona itself needs to be looked at more carefully. I'm not the most knowledgeable on P1 and P2 personally though. I'm probably misunderstanding quite a few things as again, I'm not familiar with P2. Who knows, maybe they are 1-A if I read more on the Collective Unconscious, my biggest complaint out of anything is the speed rating itself.

 

[Urshani]

if immeasurable speed isn't flying for Persona because of narrative reasons, then this would apply to the rest of Megami Tensei, no? Or am I wrong?

 

[Accelerate420]

if immeasurable speed isn't flying for Persona because of narrative reasons, then this would apply to the rest of Megami Tensei, no? Or am I wrong?

Honestly I was thinking that too, but I haven't immersed myself in Megami Tensei in years and my remaining knowledge extends to the PS2 era and modern which I've replayed recently. We would have to establish a clear ground on what is acceptable and what isn't. Personally Demi-fiend having to traverse the vortex world on foot is itself an anti-feat, but then he fights Lucifer and Disco-ball despite taking damage from falling off a building, so I think many end-game protagonists are at least safe in various areas when it comes to immeasurable speed.

The problem is that there's so many writers tackling the series that, while it is powerful, it also makes things messy for the finer points like speed. But I'm not the MT guy, I'm just here to say immeasurable speed for Persona 3-5 make no sense and we should be careful in HOW we choose to apply these tiers to Persona if they're legitimate, which I'm not saying they aren't, just that some details aren't adding up.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Obviously Joker can't manhandle anyone in the real world because their powers don't work in the real world. Persona 3 users ARE the canonically exception (besides P1/P2) because Evokers are used to force their persona's out, but like STREGA and Shinjiro they can still manifest in the real world without the evoker. The Evoker is just more controlled so their psyche doesn't end up attacking themselves (Chidori is attacked by her own persona in the real world). But this is where P3 becomes separate from the others. Every Persona user uses different means to invoke their Persona, and P3 characters went through special circumstances to even be able to accomplish these things. Things that P4 and P5 users have not gone through. So even if in THEORY they could manifest in reality, P4 and P5 users do not share this same trait as mechanically they invoke their persona's differently and receive them differently as well.

Again, a complete lie. Mitsuru says one does not need an Evoker to summon a Persona. It requires concentration and or a perilous situation, that's how you awaken them to begin with.

The Dark Hour has no bearing on this, and you miss the point that they still clearly travel an on-foot distance in both Tartarus and the real world during the Dark Hour. I would think that if you could more ANYWHEN in time and space you'd want to like...maybe use that to even prevent The Fall from happening to begin with. Like the whole point of immeasurable speed is that your speed can't be accounted for in even a time sense, so you could theoretically be in anywhere and anywhen, but Aigis and literally no one else could go back in time during The Fall and help Makoto. The whole point of The Answer was that they had to move on because they can't change the past.

And again, if they had immeasurable speed at any given moment of the game, they wouldn't really need to look for or travel to find the Shadows, let alone even climb Tartarus in general. They could just hit barrier after barrier instantly. So like, why bother with the climb if they can be anywhere/anywhen?

It doesn't make sense. Especially when you then go into the TV world aspect of things and they aren't just blasting through Magatsu-Mandala to punch Adachi in the face. Let me remind you that the standards for Immeasurable ARE THIS :

Are you aware of the fact that again, they are not using their Personas? I think I've made that point, so I will not reiterate it again. If they aren't going to invoke their Persona, then they do not get their buffs. Your argument is one of complete game mechanics, and immersion. If Goku is MFTL, why doesn't he shatter the eardrums and incinerate everyone just by moving? Why can you perceive Sonic's movements in game if he dodge people's attacks who move through time? Do you see how foolish this argument is? At that point, you would be better off making a wiki-wide CRT that unless ANY power doesn't abide by the justifications on the basis of physics, then it's not real. Kratos is chest level because he needs a key. Hulk is gorilla level. Darkseid got arrested. Am I making sense??

Persona NYX = SMT NYX.

Where was this ever asserted??

So here's something interesting. I'm just going to say it, Nyx from P3 /=/ SMT NYX.

For one, their origins are different.

The Persona 3 Club Book explains that Nyx is a celestial-body sized alien called a Planet Eater. Nyx crashed into prehistoric Earth where her body and psyche were separated, with her body becoming the Moon and her psyche staying on Earth.

Do you think we just do not know this? Do you think that we skipped the part that Ikutsuki states that the Star-Eater is based off her, and due to her affect on the earth they called her the Great-Mother Archetype?

However, it's important to note regardless of how you tier the collective unconscious, no one actually / defeats / Nyx. They battle their Avatar (Ryoji) and even Makoto's only option was to seal Nyx away even further.

Okay?? What does that matter?

Quite literally stating the Nyx in P3 is just a namesake. Thus, this is one of the crux of why backscaling is difficult, because if P3 does it, who's to say P4 and P5 don't interpret these figures differently from their SMT counterparts? They are, after all, written by different writers too. I would rather tier them by what exists in Persona itself and not by what we know of SMT.

Do you know that there are multiple incarnations of the same God? Did you know in SMT proper, there's 2 Odins? Do you know there's two Zeus? Are you aware of the fact that are nearly 4 Vishnu's? Your argument hinges on the fact that all these Gods are EQUAL, in-which they are not. The Zeus from PQ isn't as strong as the Zeus from Strange Journey. If you're honestly asserting Nyx is inferior to the Demon Nyx, then we start getting serious.

Now Idk what you consider Erebus to be but If Makoto is anywhere near elizabeth's level to fight her without getting merk'd and couldn't defeat Nyx's own Avatar, and Elizabeth can one shot Erebus, I think it's safe to say Erebus is quite weaker than Nyx itself. Especially since SEES could defeat it, granted, with Aigis's new powers in addition.

What does this matter? Makoto beat Elizabeth. SEES beat Nyx Avatar. Universe Makotone is stronger than both. SEES beats Erebus. Elizabeth trains and one-shots him. This is basic knowledge, what are you regurgitating it for?

Again, with the precedence in P3 being shown that not all Gods = SMT gods, it's presumptuous to assume Adam Kadmon = SMT and isn't just a different take on it.
This also lends doubt to whether their cosmology is really the same or if they differ. At worst you get the Persona universe itself having a different cosmology but still within the SMT multiverse. And I mean, it's not like that doesn't already exist with DeSu with Polaris and Canopus (to an extent).

All I'm saying is there's evidence that suggests room for doubt.

There IS no SMT Adam Kadmon, are you not understanding? Does the concept of Demons having multiple renditions in which they do not scale just not ring to you? The fact that you're making this argument that they share different cosmology when the entire blog and Part 1 debunk that notion put into question if you actually read anything put out, outside of just 1-A SMT.

I'm not the most knowledgeable on P1 and P2 personally though.

So why in the hell are you talking about them? What did you gain from it? What point did it serve?

 

[Zencha9]

i mean if you want to go into that route sure immeasurable is ieffy for persona characters but so would any speed that's higher than peak or superhuman so how would you exactly handle that ?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Again, with the precedence in P3 being shown that not all Gods = SMT gods, it's presumptuous to assume Adam = SMT and isn't just a different take on it.

This entire branch of the argument is irrelevant because we already acknowledge this: As you pointed out, Persona 3's Nyx isn't the Greek Goddess but just an alien being who is named after the latter and inspired her figure to begin with. The mythological Nyx already appeared all the way back in Persona 1 in the Snow Queen Route, and she is very clearly the same as SMT Nyx, down to the two sharing a design, even. So, yeah, this is not a valid point at all and just amounts to a gigantic strawman.

Given that, we can infer that Persona 3 Nyx is already very clearly an exception to the rule. For instance, Adam Kadmon is explicitly defined as being "the source and the destination," which is supposed to a nod to its role as the primordial realm of infinite light from which everything emerged and to which everything returns, and the fact one of his attacks is even named "Origin Light" hammers the point home even further, along with the Thieves' Den glossary explicitly referring to him as being the kabbalistic concept proper.

 

[Urshani]

The Zeus from PQ isn't as strong as the Zeus from Strange Journey.

you said the opposite on the message wall.

either way, i am beginning to side with milly since he knows A LOT about this verse and he (And Ultima) have good arguments

MT speed is iffy, I should make another thread for it

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

you said the opposite on the message wall.

Are you trying to be dishonest? He isn't as strong as Kaneko Zeus, or SJ. He's stronger.

 

[Urshani]

i mean if you want to go into that route sure immeasurable is ieffy for persona characters but so would any speed that's higher than peak or superhuman so how would you exactly handle that ?

Change the Immeasurable standards (again) or list everyone as Unknown

 

[Urshani]

Are you trying to be dishonest? He isn't as strong as Kaneko Zeus. He's stronger.

Your wording implied that PQ Zeus was weaker than Kaneko Zeus ( 'Not as strong as' )

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Your wording implied that PQ Zeus was weaker than Kaneko Zeus ( 'Not as strong as' )

Yes, because he's stronger, very simple concept.

 

[Lonkitt]

but then he fights Lucifer and Disco-ball despite taking damage from falling off a building

I don't want to come off as rude, but this is a joke on your part, right?

 

[Accelerate420]

This entire branch of the argument is irrelevant because we already acknowledge this: As you pointed out, Persona 3's Nyx isn't the Greek Goddess but just an alien being who is named after the latter and inspired her figure to begin with. The mythological Nyx already appeared all the way back in Persona 1 in the Snow Queen Route, and she is very clearly the same as SMT Nyx, down to the two sharing a design, even. So, yeah, this is not a valid point at all and just amounts to a gigantic strawman.

Given that, we can infer that Persona 3 Nyx is already very clearly an exception to the rule. For instance, Adam Kadmon is explicitly defined as being "the source and the destination," which is supposed to a nod to its role as the primordial realm of infinite light from which everything emerged and to which everything returns, and the fact one of his attacks is even named "Origin Light" hammers the point home even further, along with the Thieves' Den glossary explicitly referring to him as being the kabbalistic concept proper.

Fair enough, I was misunderstanding things.

Again, a complete lie. Mitsuru says one does not need an Evoker to summon a Persona. It requires concentration and or a perilous situation, that's how you awaken them to begin with.

And none of the P4 and P5 cast have accomplished this despite the perilous situations they've been in? Nanako literally dies and I don't see anyone awakening a Persona to try and heal her with Salvation and that's a pretty serious situation.

Are you aware of the fact that again, they are not using their Personas? I think I've made that point, so I will not reiterate it again. If they aren't going to invoke their Persona, then they do not get their buffs. Your argument is one of complete game mechanics, and immersion. If Goku is MFTL, why doesn't he shatter the eardrums and incinerate everyone just by moving? Why can you perceive Sonic's movements in game if he dodge people's attacks who move through time? Do you see how foolish this argument is? At that point, you would be better off making a wiki-wide CRT that unless ANY power doesn't abide by the justifications on the basis of physics, then it's not real. Kratos is chest level because he needs a key. Hulk is gorilla level. Darkseid got arrested. Am I making sense??

Suspension of disbelief, I'm aware of what it is, but when you add it to Persona it still doesn't make sense. Like, you're basically admitting Mitsuru, someone who wants to stop The Fall, wouldn't just go back in time with her end-game speed and stop the Kirijo groups plans immediately or set fire to their work? Like it just doesn't make sense. Yukari wouldn't go back and save her father? Junpei wouldn't go back and save Chidori? Goku is MFTL because he has been shown to achieve speeds capable of these feats. You can claim game mechanics and immersion as much as you want, but there comes a point where you need to actually take the immersion seriously because that's what grounds the story and limits the characters because-- guess what, Persona characters have limits and that includes where and when they can go.

Do you know that there are multiple incarnations of the same God? Did you know in SMT proper, there's 2 Odins? Do you know there's two Zeus? Are you aware of the fact that are nearly 4 Vishnu's? Your argument hinges on the fact that all these Gods are EQUAL, in-which they are not. The Zeus from PQ isn't as strong as the Zeus from Strange Journey. If you're honestly asserting Nyx is inferior to the Demon Nyx, then we start getting serious.

I'm aware, but now I'm kinda confused on what you just said. I am asserting it, but you just said that all these gods aren't Equal, which I agree, which I'd then say Nyx from persona isn't equal to Demon Nyx.

What does this matter? Makoto beat Elizabeth. SEES beat Nyx Avatar. Universe Makotone is stronger than both. SEES beats Erebus. Elizabeth trains and one-shots him. This is basic knowledge, what are you regurgitating it for?

?
SEES doesn't beat Nyx's Avatar, Nyx's Avatar is just fine.
They just fend it off barely and then Nyx's Avatar goes ahead and commences The Fall. It's a losing battle and the only option was to seal Nyx.

So why in the hell are you talking about them? What did you gain from it? What point did it serve?

To be fair I misinterpret a few things. I didn't exactly come here cocked and loaded and I was just thinking persona scaling is weird because it contextually has issues. My biggest issue is the speed as I've stated.

 

[Accelerate420]

I don't want to come off as rude, but this is a joke on your part, right?

I mean, yeah? I don't honestly believe Demi-fiend is building level, it's just something that happens early game and it's funny in retrospect and I was using it as an example that they do get stronger by end-game.

 

[Urshani]

Yes, because he's stronger, very simple concept.

everytime i've read 'not as strong as' in a sentence it's to imply inferiority
it should be 'not as weak as' or 'stronger than'

 

[Lonkitt]

I mean, yeah? I don't honestly believe Demi-fiend is building level, it's just something that happens early game and it's funny in retrospect and I was using it as an example that they do get stronger by end-game.

It's purely game mechanics. There's a lot of risk and reward type mechanics like that in Nocturne and those who've played the game themselves can support me on that. It shouldn't really be used for an example of anything

 

[Accelerate420]

It's purely game mechanics. There's a lot of risk and reward type mechanics like that in Nocturne and those who've played the game themselves can support me on that. It shouldn't really be used for an example of anything

I don't recall there being any reward to faceplanting onto the ground except for getting down faster.

 

[Urshani]

situation

PIS

. Like, you're basically admitting Mitsuru, someone who wants to stop The Fall, wouldn't just go back in time with her end-game speed and stop the Kirijo groups plans immediately or set fire to their work? Like it just doesn't make sense. Yukari wouldn't go back and save her father? Junpei wouldn't go back and save Chidori?

PIS

a lot of PIS in general

 

[Urshani]

risk

also can be called an outlier considering you still get reduced to 1 hp endgame

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

SEES doesn't beat Nyx's Avatar, Nyx's Avatar is just fine. They just fend it off barely and then Nyx's Avatar goes ahead and commences The Fall. It's a losing battle and the only option was to seal Nyx.

...I'm sorry, did you miss the part where Nyx Avatar outright collapsed and even stated SEES had beaten her?

 

[Lonkitt]

also can be called an outlier considering you still get reduced to 1 hp endgame

Yeah, it doesn't work as a way to scale the Demi-Fiend no matter how you cut it

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Suspension of disbelief, I'm aware of what it is, but when you add it to Persona it still doesn't make sense. Like, you're basically admitting Mitsuru, someone who wants to stop The Fall, wouldn't just go back in time with her end-game speed and stop the Kirijo groups plans immediately or set fire to their work? Like it just doesn't make sense. Yukari wouldn't go back and save her father? Junpei wouldn't go back and save Chidori? Goku is MFTL because he has been shown to achieve speeds capable of these feats. You can claim game mechanics and immersion as much as you want, but there comes a point where you need to actually take the immersion seriously because that's what grounds the story and limits the characters because-- guess what, Persona characters have limits and that includes where and when they can go.

This is called Plot Induced Stupidity. It is a concept on the wiki.

 

[Accelerate420]

...I'm sorry, did you miss the part where Nyx Avatar outright collapsed and even stated SEES had beaten her?

And then gets back up like nothing happened? Maybe our definition of 'beat' is different because when an enemy is outright defeated, I consider that beaten. But yeah you aren't wrong, I was underselling it looking back on it.

 

[Accelerate420]

This is called Plot Induced Stupidity. It is a concept on the wiki.

I know what it is, but it's also just a cop-out 'get out of jail free' card when there's so many anti-feats to suggest against the speed. You can only say something is PIS before you start going into fallacies.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

My biggest issue is the speed as I've stated

In all fairness, the issues you've brought up are just a product of the natural discrepancy between travel speed and Combat / Reaction Speed that's present in virtually any JRPG. Those low-end showings wouldn't really vanish even if we downgraded them, since the next most reasonable end is Massively FTL+ off of the Three Wise Men outspeeding a ship that was in the middle of travelling between universes in Strange Journey. It's odd, yeah, but ultimately not practically solvable in a way that corroborates with the nature of the entities they defeat all the time.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And none of the P4 and P5 cast have accomplished this despite the perilous situations they've been in? Nanako literally dies and I don't see anyone awakening a Persona to try and heal her with Salvation and that's a pretty serious situation.

Maybe because of because of the fact that she literally DID NOT DIE, perhaps. I don't understand the logic here, he was comforting his bedridden cousin, there serves no narrative purpose to do that as it breaks the immersion.

Suspension of disbelief, I'm aware of what it is, but when you add it to Persona it still doesn't make sense. Like, you're basically admitting Mitsuru, someone who wants to stop The Fall, wouldn't just go back in time with her end-game speed and stop the Kirijo groups plans immediately or set fire to their work? Like it just doesn't make sense. Yukari wouldn't go back and save her father? Junpei wouldn't go back and save Chidori? Goku is MFTL because he has been shown to achieve speeds capable of these feats. You can claim game mechanics and immersion as much as you want, but there comes a point where you need to actually take the immersion seriously because that's what grounds the story and limits the characters because-- guess what, Persona characters have limits and that includes where and when they can go.

The whole point of The Answer was that they had to move on because they can't change the past.

So which point are you banking on here? The narrative and their character choices that they choose to accept the past and not dismantle Makoto's legacy, or "because they can't do it they would've"? Your entire stance just seems like a mountain of disingenuous strawmans.

I'm aware, but now I'm kinda confused on what you just said. I am asserting it, but you just said that all these gods aren't Equal, which I agree, which I'd then say Nyx from persona isn't equal to Demon Nyx.

This is irrelevant. All of this Nyx stuff is irrelevant, as KOS and Ultima point out.

everytime i've read 'not as strong as' in a sentence it's to imply inferiority
it should be 'not as weak as' or 'stronger than'

I truly do not care.

 

[Urshani]

This is called Plot Induced Stupidity. It is a concept on the wiki.

How much PIS is too much? I think Marvel and DC are treated more strictly than other verses on this site due to the sheer number of PIS

 

[Accelerate420]

also can be called an outlier considering you still get reduced to 1 hp endgame

Maybe the building is actually 1-A in height?

 

[Lonkitt]

Maybe the building is actually 1-A in height?

I'm gonna need you to never say that again

 

[Accelerate420]

Maybe because of because of the fact that she literally DID NOT DIE, perhaps. I don't understand the logic here, he was comforting his bedridden cousin, there serves no narrative purpose to do that as it breaks the immersion.

I seem to recall Nanako dying, so what exactly DID happen then?

So which point are you banking on here? The narrative and their character choices that they choose to accept the past and not dismantle Makoto's legacy, or "because they can't do it they would've"? Your entire stance just seems like a mountain of disingenuous strawmans.

Aren't you the one straw manning me? I already pointed out things outside of Makoto's legacy. Like, if you'd say they'd get it statistically at end-game, then at any point during December they could've just been like "Hang on a second, why do we have to fight Nyx?" And just go stop everything.

This post is banking on the concept of Makoto's post-seal which I agree they would not, but now you're gonna have to define WHEN they become Immeasurable speed otherwise they could logically have done it whenever before that and disregard the whole notion of anyone's legacy.