This argument that Modern Persona is so unfathomably below P1-2, and SMT as a whole is very possibly the most dishonest, dare I even say, rat argument I've come across in this fandom, when everything in story is contrary to these claims. I'm going to shut down all of them, and I don't ever want to see them rear their head again.
In and of itself, this is just blatantly ignoring context. They do not have their Personas out, so why would they gain their respective buffs? If they did, why couldn't Joker just strong arm Kamoshida the moment he got back to the real world? Only a select amount of buffs come from not having a Persona out, and none of them are related to physical stats. Of course Shinjiro died, neither Takaya nor Shinjiro activated their Personas, as far as that point is concerned, they were no more than barely amped humans. Their "powers" being limited to the real world is also a
complete lie. Shinjiro had no desire to rest Ken's anger, his dialogue will tell you that.. They were in the Dark Hour, he very well could've slapped the piss out of his mouth if he so wanted. The rest of my statement can just be reiterated for the rest of it, why would Persona-users constantly have their powers open in the real world, that's basic storytelling 101, if they traveled across the globe with immeasurable speed then what is the point of playing. Referring to the Mementos driving, that's irrelevant, considering the fact that it's quite literally part of the Collective Unconscious.
So I have no idea what you think I said but you've got several things twisted here. Obviously Joker can't manhandle anyone in the real world because their powers don't work in the real world. Persona 3 users ARE the canonically exception (besides P1/P2) because Evokers are used to force their persona's out, but like STREGA and Shinjiro they can still manifest in the real world without the evoker. The Evoker is just more controlled so their psyche doesn't end up attacking themselves (Chidori is attacked by her own persona in the real world). But this is where P3 becomes separate from the others. Every Persona user uses different means to invoke their Persona, and P3 characters went through special circumstances to even be able to accomplish these things. Things that P4 and P5 users have not gone through. So even if in THEORY they could manifest in reality, P4 and P5 users do not share this same trait as mechanically they invoke their persona's differently and receive them differently as well.
The Dark Hour has no bearing on this, and you miss the point that they still clearly travel an on-foot distance in both Tartarus and the real world during the Dark Hour. I would think that if you could more ANYWHEN in time and space you'd want to like...maybe use that to even prevent The Fall from happening to begin with. Like the whole point of immeasurable speed is that your speed can't be accounted for in even a time sense, so you could theoretically be in anywhere and anywhen, but Aigis and literally no one else could go back in time during The Fall and help Makoto. The whole point of The Answer was that they had to move on because they can't change the past.
And again, if they had immeasurable speed at any given moment of the game, they wouldn't really need to look for or travel to find the Shadows, let alone even climb Tartarus in general. They could just hit barrier after barrier instantly. So like, why bother with the climb if they can be anywhere/anywhen?
It doesn't make sense. Especially when you then go into the TV world aspect of things and they aren't just blasting through Magatsu-Mandala to punch Adachi in the face. Let me remind you that the standards for Immeasurable ARE THIS :
Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right.
Even if you argued 'Well they only got these at mid-game/end-game' That still leaves conundrums and plot holes to this argument. Because again, SEES lacked the ability to change the past and had to live for the future. Because...well...they
cannot move in that sort of way.
I agree that it's storytelling though, you can't have a game without...well, a game. But you also need to respect the LIMITATIONS of the story and what they allow the characters to do and not do. Again, The Answer would be extremely different contextually if they were capable of speed shit like this. If you're willing to overlook narrative things to push a rating, you aren't exactly doing the site justice as it's an indexing site. Meaning canon takes precedence over everything and I have never seen any Persona user go back in time to prevent a tragedy or the future. It's just not a thing because this factor does not exist.
And as for your Mementos thing, I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to Futaba's Palace, where Palaces are stated to be isolated domains away from Mementos.
Are you even aware we already debunked immeasurable speed in the first key for all Persona protagonists? They scale infinitely lower, and only by mid-game to late-game does that statistic return, this is literally a non-factor.
But you don't understand, it doesn't make sense contextually even in the verse itself to be put on them in general. The biggest exception you can MAYBE permit is P5's Metaverse stuff but even that I'm not sure I'd bite.
The concept that P1/2 is not connected is so unbelievably
laced with complete fabrication that the fandom truly does earn it's reputation of not playing the games. From the very
BEGINNING of Persona 3, Igor refers to Tatsuya's existence, verbatim stating "
it's been years since we had a guest". In the King's Game, Chie
mentions the Kuzunoha Clan have movies about them. Why does this matter? Because Shin Megami Tensei as a whole is connected to Persona, it's in the
first thread, it's literally the first goddamn section. P2 doesn't even support that fraudulent point, considering Tamaki, from Shin Megami Tensei if... shows up in Persona 2. During the events of Persona 5,
Katsuya is referenced as the detective with "red sunglasses".
It is connected, but that doesn't make the ratings legitimate. It's like scaling Ryougi from KnK to Nero because she fought her in Extra. Their connections are there but it doesn't constitute that Persona NYX = SMT NYX. Plenty of verses have these same off rules when it comes to their spin-offs.
And again, Tatsuya's ratings would have no impact nor relation to P3-P5 so he can be as 1-A as he wants.
Do you mean how Nyx and Erebus reside in the
Monado Mandala,
the origin of souls, their Domain??
So here's something interesting. I'm just going to say it, Nyx from P3 /=/ SMT NYX.
For one, their origins are different.
The
Persona 3 Club Book explains that Nyx is a celestial-body sized alien called a Planet Eater. Nyx crashed into prehistoric Earth where her body and psyche were separated, with her body becoming the Moon and her psyche staying on Earth.
In order to speak about this, we need to take a step back and look at our planet’s prehistory first. In ancient times, there existed a gigantic living being, the size of a celestial body, drifting through outer space in a dormant state. We call such a being a “Star Eater”. At a certain point in time, this being collided with a planet which had only just begun to develop its first forms of life - earth. The chance of this happening was merely one in several Million - no, Billion. In any case, this event can be seen as the first contact between Nyx and earth’s lifeforms.
So, Nyx was born in extraterrestrial space? It seems miraculous that the planet was not destroyed by this kind of impact.
Of course, you are correct. The matter Nyx was composed of existed under physical laws which defy those of earth. Even the mere collision alone brought tremendous results with itself. In any case, the debris broken off in the shock of the collision entered earth’s orbit and became our moon. As Nyx’ psyche, which exists in a wave-like state, was left behind on earth, her physical body was enclosed in the moon alongside the debris. However, you see, the psyche was the far more problematic part of this being to begin with.
I'm not a myth-buff but this doesn't sound like Nyx's mythology origins. We can assume even Erebus falls under different origins too. Granted this does make Nyx more impressive than what is presented in the game itself and she is sealed in the collective unconscious. However, it's important to note regardless of how you tier the collective unconscious, no one actually / defeats / Nyx. They battle their Avatar (Ryoji) and even Makoto's only option was to seal Nyx away even further.
It is quite the irony of fate that Nyx, who was meant to embody the demise of all life on earth, ended up becoming the catalyst that allowed for earth’s living beings to evolve into lifeforms with complex, sentient psyches. It should be mentioned that the greek goddess “Nyx”, who our Nyx takes her name from, is portrayed as a maternal goddess, embodying a powerful Mother-Archetype. So you see, the knowledge of the truth that in a way we are all Nyx’ children has probably been with people since old times.
Quite literally stating the Nyx in P3 is just a namesake. Thus, this is one of the crux of why backscaling is difficult, because if P3 does it, who's to say P4 and P5 don't interpret these figures differently from their SMT counterparts? They are, after all, written by different writers too. I would rather tier them by what exists in Persona itself and not by what we know of SMT.
Now Idk what you consider Erebus to be but If Makoto is anywhere near elizabeth's level to fight her without getting merk'd and couldn't defeat Nyx's own Avatar, and Elizabeth can one shot Erebus, I think it's safe to say Erebus is quite weaker than Nyx itself. Especially since SEES could defeat it, granted, with Aigis's new powers in addition.
Where Nyarlathotep is
directly mentioned, with the same
phrasing by multiple
Persona 2 characters, including
Nyarlathotep him-*******-self? Yaldabaoth fused the
Kadath Mandala,
the origin of Gods, Persons, and Demons with the real world? Or the fact how Adam Kadmon is the
source and destination,
and deific form that Philemon himself states as
perfect and
whole?
Again, with the precedence in P3 being shown that not all Gods = SMT gods, it's presumptuous to assume Adam Kadmon = SMT and isn't just a different take on it.
This also lends doubt to whether their cosmology is really the same or if they differ. At worst you get the Persona universe itself having a different cosmology but still within the SMT multiverse. And I mean, it's not like that doesn't already exist with DeSu with Polaris and Canopus (to an extent).
All I'm saying is there's evidence that suggests room for doubt.
This entire misconception that P3-5 is leagues, eons, and dimensions below anything SMT/P1/P2 has to offer is complete and utter bullshit with no basis. I very well understand this will likely come off as direct, hostile, even. But I do not care. 7 months of planning and revising this verse from the bottom up with people that poured endless work into it with me, and I am, under no circumstance, going to allow uneducated and ignorant cosmological gatekeeping to bar that, which was already torn down in the first thread, in the first section.
Chill dude. I already told you to begin with that I'm fine with SMT and everything else scaling to it, but Persona itself needs to be looked at more carefully. I'm not the most knowledgeable on P1 and P2 personally though. I'm probably misunderstanding quite a few things as again, I'm not familiar with P2. Who knows, maybe they are 1-A if I read more on the Collective Unconscious, my biggest complaint out of anything is the speed rating itself.
