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Megami Tensei - The Expansive, Collective CRT Part II

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So how far have you proceeded in your work here?
 
Okay. That is good then. You will have to do some cleanup work due to other members editing profile pages prematurely though.
 
Yes, I thought that they were a part of your group, so I did not revert the changes at the time. My apologies.
 
How long do you think it will take until you start editing?
 
Okay. Never mind then. Thank you for helping out.
 
Also, just a quick question, but on the "Understanding" page, one of the "scans" is a link to a wiki page. Shouldn't we get actual scans for that? I think it would be better to just get rid of the link entirely until scans can be accessed.
 
It was the Transmutation ability for the Understanding page. It led to this page:

megamitensei.fandom.com

Abraxas

Abraxas is a demon in the series. Abraxas, also known as Abrasax, Abraxis or Latin-Afipacrdl, is an aeon, a divine being residing in the Pleroma in Gnosticism. In a great majority of instances, the name Abrasax is associated with a singular composite figure, having a Chimera-like appearance...
megamitensei.fandom.com megamitensei.fandom.com
 
Tarang123 said:
It was the Transmutation ability for the Understanding page. It led to this page:

megamitensei.fandom.com

Abraxas

Abraxas is a demon in the series. Abraxas, also known as Abrasax, Abraxis or Latin-Afipacrdl, is an aeon, a divine being residing in the Pleroma in Gnosticism. In a great majority of instances, the name Abrasax is associated with a singular composite figure, having a Chimera-like appearance...
megamitensei.fandom.com megamitensei.fandom.com
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Yeah, look at his compendium entry, all you’ll see is how badly he got debased.
 
This might have been noticed already, but just in case, Morax's page was revised, but his tier wasn't revised to include the Archetype key. Only his attack potency, etc were.
 
It would probably be good if you inform me here when you start to apply this revision and about which members that will do so, so we can all try to keep an eye out for the uninvolved ones that butt in and mess up the coherence of the statistics for the various characters.
 
In hindsight, is there more to the justification behind why Beelzebub scales to Metatron and thus Elohim?

The two being the greatest warriors of the opposing side, doesn't necessarily imply equality, and the two sides being locked in an equal doesn't imply the same either, since the two characters are not posited as the reason for the stalemate.

Levels are also iffy, since they both appear in multiple games with a wide range of level differences.
 
Also if Kagatsuchi is superior to Baal, and in turn Metatron according to the current scaling, wouldn't that contradict his status as the mightiest warrior of light?
 
Tyranno223 said:
In hindsight, is there more to the justification behind why Beelzebub scales to Metatron and thus Elohim?

The two being the greatest warriors of the opposing side, doesn't necessarily imply equality, and the two sides being locked in an equal doesn't imply the same either, since the two characters are not posited as the reason for the stalemate.

Levels are also iffy, since they both appear in multiple games with a wide range of level differences.
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What else would it imply, exactly? Beelzebub leading the forces of darkness & Metatron leading the forces of light, neither of which gain definitive superiority. In this case, levels are fine, as it’s only in comparison to one rendition of Kagutsuchi that’s only ever appeared in one game.


Tyranno223 said:
Also if Kagatsuchi is superior to Baal, and in turn Metatron according to the current scaling, wouldn't that contradict his status as the mightiest warrior of light?
Click to expand...
Kagutsuchi is simply not superior to Baal, nor Beelzebub.


Antvasima said:
It would probably be good if you inform me here when you start to apply this revision and about which members that will do so, so we can all try to keep an eye out for the uninvolved ones that butt in and mess up the coherence of the statistics for the various characters.
Click to expand...
You’re right. Those who want to help with the making of profiles, comment at my wall, and I’ll slide a link.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
What else would it imply, exactly? Beelzebub leading the forces of darkness & Metatron leading the forces of light, neither of which gain definitive superiority. In this case, levels are fine, as it’s only in comparison to one rendition of Kagutsuchi that’s only ever appeared in one game.



Kagutsuchi is simply not superior to Baal, nor Beelzebub.



You’re right. Those who want to help with the making of profiles, comment at my wall, and I’ll slide a link.
Click to expand...
It just feels like somewhat flimsy justification. No direct comparison is made, and in many games, Beelzebub and Metatron have varyingly different levels. At best it personally feels like a "likely" scaling, as direct scaling generally needs outright statements for this wiki, at least that's what I've perceived.

Also it's a comparison which is not necessarily supported in game we fight and defeat Beelzebub first, and while they have equal fusable levels in game, they again vary widly over the series.

Oh, I assumed Baal Avatar was considered equivalent to Baal. I suppose that assumption was wrong, and I'll concede there.
 
Tyranno223 said:
It just feels like somewhat flimsy justification. No direct comparison is made, and in many games, Beelzebub and Metatron have varyingly different levels. At best it personally feels like a "likely" scaling, as direct scaling generally needs outright statements for this wiki, at least that's what I've perceived.

Also it's a comparison which is not necessarily supported in game we fight and defeat Beelzebub first, and while they have equal fusable levels in game, they again vary widly over the series.
Click to expand...
Once again, different games are irrelevant as the scaling comes from this game, in which they regardless, scale above Kagutsuchi. It wouldn’t be the only scaling, considering Beelzebub shows up in Kether Castle in SMT II, the highest point in the Atziluth, in-which, coincidentally enough, Metatron rules over the same place.

Not to mention it also makes no sense for the lead generals of both forces to be so unbelievably far apart. The entire basis of Nocturne is the fact that their armies have been waging war across all of space and time, beyond space and time, for years and years on end.
Tyranno223 said:
Oh, I assumed Baal Avatar was considered equivalent to Baal. I suppose that assumption was wrong, and I'll concede there.
Click to expand...
It is in the name, after all. Avatar.
 
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Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Once again, different games are irrelevant as the scaling comes from this game, in which they regardless, scale above Kagutsuchi. It wouldn’t be the only scaling, considering Beelzebub shows up in Kether Castle in SMT II, the highest point in the Atziluth, in-which, coincidentally enough, Metatron rules over the same place.

Not to mention it also makes no sense for the lead generals of both forces to be so unbelievably far apart. The entire basis of Nocturne is the fact that their armies have been waging war across all of space and time, beyond space and time, for years and years on end.

It is in the name, after all. Avatar.
Click to expand...
Thank you, that give or take satisfies my queries.

Also forgive me on that front. SMT treated avatars like Krishna weirdly for a while. I'm still a bit stuck on that mindset.
 
No one believed me like 8 years ago when I told everyone Brahman was literally one of the biggest heavy hitters and most powerful figures in SMT. WHO'S LAUGHING NOW?

On a serious note, I don't personally agree with merging Persona and SMT together and scaling off eachother due to there being a lot of problems with it canonically for modern Persona, but I doubt any argument I make will matter this far in. Besides that the SMT stuff seems good.
 
If you're going to disagree, as usual, actually explain why, just complaining but not elaborating how that's the case is a waste of time.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
It… really doesn’t. There’s literally no problem.
Click to expand...
There's problems via a lot of factors like P3 cast being threatened by normal ammunition. Sequences like that that make the characters out to be human and not immeasurable speed or OUTERVERSAL. For P4/P5 it's less so of a problem because their powers are limited to their worlds so you have some logic wiggle room I guess. There's also cutscene issues like the Phantom Thieves needing a car to traverse long distance, Ryuji's sprint for the life boats, etc that work against various stat logic. Really choosing to ignore these is basically just willful ignorance. But I'll admit these factors get weird with PQ, there's still a lot of problems when it comes to modern persona when you look at the Canon events themselves.

Basically it just looks really ******* weird to have Ryuji have immeasurable speed when he has to sprint a distance to grab a life boat.

Like I said I don't expect anything to come of this and it is a JRPG verse so things can be weird between its cutscenes and gameplay but it's just something I canr condone personally in good conscious because it doesn't really make sense with the intended sequences and point of modern Persona as a series.

The SMT stuff itself is good and I don't particularly have much against p1/p2 stuff to argue.
 
It's already been agreed upon in a different CRT that the Persona cast will get a key for their ordinary, human selves, so I don't see an issue.
 
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