Medaka Box Images Changes (Major Medaka Box Content Revisions Part 3)

[Kami95]

Ops, sorry, I should've been more clear. What I meant is that Iihiko's hax resistance should be seen as a consequence of his status as a hero. First of all we know that Anshin'in's idea of a perfect human (or a "main character") was influenced by Iihiko and that the reason she couldn't defeat Medaka was that once every 1000 years a "there's no way they could lose" kind of person is born, and Iihiko was the first of this kind. We also know that being The Hero > being haxed, which explains why Iihiko was immune to everything, including the skill that can affect Ajimu (Bookmaker). We also know that he can only be defeated by Styles (a meta-skill that "surpasses dimensions", which alludes to words being able to reach us despite coming from fictional characters) and that only another main character can win against him (Nienami said she couldn't because "it wasn't her role", despite being able to use Contradictory Conjunction much better than Zenkichi).

Also, the assumption that Iihiko is just immune to what he has experienced is a misconception. It's true that using the same attack twice would be ineffective and he wouldn't even consider it as an attack. However, this is not related to his hax resistance. Most of the attacks used against him were "Fresh" for him but he was still unaffected by them. Most importantly he was immune to Bookmaker, which was the first skill in history that could affect Anshin'i, so there's no way that he was ever hit with something similar before meeting Kumagawa. His irreversible destruction actives when an attack reaches him and it breaks the attack, but it's not the reason why skills can't even reach him in the first place. They can't reach him because of Iihiko's "strenght of another dimension", a metaphor for "strength that comes from plot" which caused Ajimu to believe in her simulated reality theory. It's the exact definition of "The Hero".

Tl;dr the plot created the verse (as Anshin'in believes) and "The Hero" is a "strength from another dimension" that does whatever is necessary to make the characters win. The reason why Ajimu can't defeat main characters is simply that they're supported by a power above the verse itself.

I'll ask KamiYasha now.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm NOT trying to upgrade the characters to 4D or anything of that sort, I'm just saying that "The Hero" is walking NLF and it's likely much stronger than people think, so we should reword it and ban it from vsthreads, rather than just saying "It's better not to use it" in a note that most people ignore.

 

[KamiYasha]

I'm quite unsure about Low 2-C.

Iihiko's ability bypases their defenses, therefore it's rather hax than ap...but i think it should remain Unknown, just like with Nienami's ability.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree 100% with Low 2-C. I thought that had been rejected already?

 

[Walking_Strawman]

He isn't arguing that any of the characters should be Low 2-C, he is talking about something else

 

[Walking_Strawman]

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to upgrade the characters to 4D or anything of that sort, I'm just saying that "The Hero" is walking NLF and it's likely much stronger than people think, so we should reword it and ban it from vsthreads, rather than just saying "It's better not to use it" in a note that most people ignore.

you know there are characters who have plot based powers that can allow them to counter it right? People with similar abilities

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

 

[Kami95]

As I said, I'm not trying to upgrade anyone, I'm just saying that "The Hero" is more than just PIS inducement (it's what causes Iihiko to resist everything they tried against him) and it's walking NLF, so it should be banned unless the opponent has a way to counter it (namely similar plot manipulation or word manipulation) rather than just say "It's ok to restrict it but you don't have to".

 

[Walking_Strawman]

As I said, I'm not trying to upgrade anyone, I'm just saying that "The Hero" is more than just PIS inducement (it's what causes Iihiko to resist everything they tried against him) and it's walking NLF, so it should be banned unless the opponent has a way to counter it (namely similar plot manipulation or word manipulation) rather than just say "It's ok to restrict it but you don't have to".

No, what causes Iihiko to resist what he does not recognise is his Irreversible Destruction. The Hero only seems to do PIS so it works on abilities it may not have worked on otherwise

 

[Kami95]

Ops, sorry, I should've been more clear. What I meant is that Iihiko's hax resistance should be seen as a consequence of his status as a hero. First of all we know that Anshin'in's idea of a perfect human (or a "main character") was influenced by Iihiko and that the reason she couldn't defeat Medaka was that once every 1000 years a "there's no way they could lose" kind of person is born, and Iihiko was the first of this kind. We also know that being The Hero > being haxed, which explains why Iihiko was immune to everything, including the skill that can affect Ajimu (Bookmaker). We also know that he can only be defeated by Styles (a meta-skill that "surpasses dimensions", which alludes to words being able to reach us despite coming from fictional characters) and that only another main character can win against him (Nienami said she couldn't because "it wasn't her role", despite being able to use Contradictory Conjunction much better than Zenkichi).
Also, the assumption that Iihiko is just immune to what he has experienced is a misconception. It's true that using the same attack twice would be ineffective and he wouldn't even consider it as an attack. However, this is not related to his hax resistance. Most of the attacks used against him were "Fresh" for him but he was still unaffected by them. Most importantly he was immune to Bookmaker, which was the first skill in history that could affect Anshin'i, so there's no way that he was ever hit with something similar before meeting Kumagawa. His irreversible destruction actives when an attack reaches him and it breaks the attack, but it's not the reason why skills can't even reach him in the first place. They can't reach him because of Iihiko's "strenght of another dimension", a metaphor for "strength that comes from plot" which caused Ajimu to believe in her simulated reality theory. It's the exact definition of "The Hero".

@Walking Strawman: I already explained why I disagree here^. Irreversible Destruction breaks incoming attacks if Iihiko recognized them as attacks. It was even stated that it would've been better if the attack didn't reach him because if it does he can use Irreversible Destruction to break it permanently. If Irreversible Destruction could break hax too Ajimu would be haxless, because Iihiko defeated her an hundred million times and he would've destroyed all of her skills. The reason Iihiko normally doesn't even notice attacks is his "strength of another dimension" (aka plot armor). Irreversible Destruction only gives him Regenerationn negation and attack reflection, The Hero gives him hax resistance.

Furthermore, The Hero is someone who is already decided to be the winner, which is already more than just PIS inducement and something like a really broken fate manipulation (which also includes probability manipulation due to being something that "makes coincidences happen").

I'm not saying that Medaka should necessarily get hax resistance by scaling to Iihiko, I'm saying that The Hero seems to be able to do whatever plot armor can do and it's not just "The opponent will make bad choices" like many people seem to think. For example, we usually say "Soul manipulation/Existance Erasure/Mind manipulation can defeat Medaka with The Hero", ignoring that Ajimu could do any of these thing but was still inferior to Medaka, who didn't even have minus abilities at the time. The Hero is a canon plot armor that can do everything the user needs to win, which is the epitome of NLF and should be banned, except if the opponent can actually counter it with similar powers.

Edit: we kinda accepted that Iihiko's defense is plot based tbh, style users have "can ignore plot-based defenses" on their profile due to being able to harm him.

Edit 2: looking at recent Medaka vsthreads I really think that banning The Hero could be necessary.

 

[Kami95]

Just so people don't misunderstand me again, what I'm trying to do is to change this:

"Note 2: Be wary when using "The Hero" in VS Threads. Unless her opponent has some way to counter it or has other plot based abilities, it should likely be disabled for that match. The nature of the ability has the potential to allow those with the status to win against characters they would otherwise have no feasible way to win against, if the match would be inconclusive due to Medaka being carried by "The Hero" alone to make up for a difference in statistics, then those matches are unadvised. Matches with "The Hero" turned off may still be added to the profile without issue."

Into this:

"Note 2: Be wary when using "The Hero" in VS Threads. Unless her opponent has some way to counter it or has other plot based abilities, it should absolutely be disabled for that match. The nature of the ability has the potential to allow those with the status to win against characters they would otherwise have no feasible way to win against. Matches with "The Hero" turned off may still be added to the profile without issue."

Tiers, stats, abilities etc. remain unchanged (we could add Fate and Probability manipulation via Plot Manipulation to Medaka and Iihiko, but it would be irrelevant anyway since they will be restricted more often than not).

 

[Kami95]

I removed every "4D" mention to avoid further misunderstandings.