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MCU: 2-A Sacred Timeline and the Multiverse (Cosmology Thread)

RoTt35

RoTt35

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Currently, the MCU multiverse is accepted at 2-A since it contains infinite universes, realities and dimensions, but actually those statements refer to the Sacred Timeline and not the multiverse as a whole:
With this we can conclude that the Sacred Timeline is a 2-A structure. After the death of He Who Remains, the Sacred Timeline was freed and branched out into bigger timelines that connected with the rest of the multiverse. In What If...?, we are told that there are endless possibilities where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities. Therefore, the current multiverse contains endless 2-A timelines where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities, in addition to the countless timelines that had been isolated from the Sacred Timeline by He Who Remains.
  • This could explain why the sorcerers during Doctor Strange could make portals to travel throughout the multiverse but in MoM they couldn't anymore, since they were actually traveling through the Sacred Timeline and not the entire multiverse, and MoM happens after the events of Loki.
Clarification 1: all the statements about the multiverse before the events of Loki and the death of He Who Remains actually refer to the Sacred Timeline, since it was isolated from the rest of the multiverse by He Who Remains. Therefore, the statements of the infinite universes, realities and dimensions of Ancient One and Dormammu refer to the Sacred Timeline and not to the multiverse as a whole. And after the death of He Who Remains, the Sacred Timeline was freed, branching out into bigger timelines and connecting with the rest of the multiverse.

Clarification 2: the purpose of the CRT is to make each timeline a 2-A structure ad infinitum (Since each timeline contains infinite universes, realities and dimensions, where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities), and the entire multiverse a higher degree of 2-A due to containing endless timelines.

Note: this is a CRT exclusively to deal with the cosmology and timelines of the MCU, the mention of upgrades to characters is derailing from the purpose of the thread, that will be addressed in another CRT if this one is accepted.

Agree: 14 (@RoTt35, @The_one_you_least_expect, @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer, @Excel616, @Wagy, @DarlingAurora, @ThanatosX, @Dalesean027, @Eseseso, @Lacku, @Gasper, @Dread, @Revan_Laha, @Valiant_Abyss)

Neutral:

Disagree:
 
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Not to mention there's other dimensions like Ta Lo and seperate afterlifes in every timeline at the very least to house those of certain beliefs and such, could find more but for now this is fine. If need be I'd say include the all the statements you can fimd about the multiverse being infinit yet infinitely branching branching as well
 
If i am not mistaken ,this thread makes pre he who remains death , sacred timeline a baseline 2-A construct and multiverse above baseline 2-A?
 
So, if I understand correctly, a single Timeline would be 2-A for being formed of infinite realities. A single choice spread out into an infinite amount of Timelines, with an ad infinitum/endless amount of choices.
This means that the whole cosmology would be Infinite*infinite*ad infinitum.
If that's the case, I agree. It would be consistent with the potrayal of a single Timeline having inside of itself other realities like the Dark Dimension, the Astral Plane and such.
 
Each of the endless timelines would contain infinite universes, realities, and dimensions (Examples: the Dark Dimension plus the realities and dimensions Dormammu has conquered, the universes that Ancient One showed to Doctor Strange, the Astral Plane, Ta Lo, the different afterlifes, etc), where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities
 
Collecting the quotes in text form:
The Ancient One: He looks alright to me. You think you know how the world works? You think that this material universe is all there is? What is real? What mysteries lie beyond the reach of your senses? At the root of existence, mind and matter meet. Thoughts shape reality. This universe is only one of an infinite number. Worlds without end. Some benevolent and life-giving, others filled with malice and hunger. Dark places, where powers older than time lie… ravenous… and waiting. Who are you in this vast multiverse, Mr. Strange? Have you seen that before in a gift shop?

The Ancient One: The language of the mystic arts is as old as civilization. The sorcerers of antiquity called the use of this language "spells". But if that word offends your modern sensibilities, you can call it "program". The source code that shapes reality. We harness energy drawn from other dimensions of the multiverse, to cast spells, conjure shields and weapons to make magic.

Mordo: Mastery of the sling ring is essential to the mystic arts. They allow us to travel throughout the multiverse. All you need to do is focus. Visualize. See the destination in your mind. Look beyond the world in front of you. Imagine every detail. The clearer the picture, the quicker, and easier, the gateway will come. And stop.

The Ancient One: You’re advancing quickly with your sorcery skills. You need a safe space to practice your spells. You are now inside the Mirror Dimension. Ever present but undetected. The real world isn’t affected by what happens here. We use the Mirror Dimension to train, surveil, and sometimes to contain threats. You don’t want to be stuck in here without your sling ring.

Dr. Stephen Strange: Hold on. Sorry, what do you mean, threats?

The Ancient One: Learning of an infinite multiverse included learning of infinite dangers. And if I told you everything else that you don’t already know, you’d run from here in terror.

I ultimately agree, but I have a problem with using the Ancient One's quote as an argument (and by extension, the Dormammu scan).

Non-material universes such as the mirror dimension are considered part of the multiverse referred to in Dr. Strange. How do we know that there are not an infinite number of such non-material universes within a timeline, without the Sacred Timeline having unlimited timelines?
The MCU actually has quite a number of dimensions/universes that are not timelines:
Quantum Realm, Astral Dimension, Ancestral Plane, Duat, Valhala, Mandelibus Dimension, Dark Dimension, K'un-Lun Dimension, Izel's Realm, Soulworld, Actiniaria Dimension, Grass Jelly Dimension, Flowering Incense Dimension, Quadriverse, Realm of Madness, Ta Lo, Noor Dimension, Eternity's Realm, Shadow Dimension, Crossroads, Gap Junction, Time Variance Authority Office, Void, Citadel at the End of Time, Nexus of All Reality

From the context, it sounds like back then in the Dr. Strange movie quotes, 'multiverse' means the acid trip 'universes' Dr. Strange was briefly teleported to instead of actual parallel timelines (In fact, the current conception of alternative timelines was properly not decided back then):


Things like these:
mmt0720_comp_mktcolor_v0075-marketing_2156x1212x1_vdf16-1052.jpg
mmt_1045.jpg
mmt0520_comp_mktcolor_v0086-marketing_2156x1212x1_vdf16-1116.jpg

If these wacky dimensions are infinite, then parallel timelines within the Sacred Timeline don't need to be infinite.

This (at least back then) would be what Dormammu was trying to consume.
This would also clear up the apparent discrepancy in Sorcerers' Sling Rings can no longer traveling through the 'multiverse' (because what the word means has changed from back in 2016). It just that the Sling Ring never created portals through time, and in the new terminology the multiverse includes alternative timelines.

Stronger arguments would be this interview with Loki's head writer where he confirms infinite parallel timelines within the Sacred Timeline:
[laughs] Okay, understood. So my question is if there is the one “Sacred Tmeline” of the Marvel Universe that the TVA has been protecting for some significant stretch of time, then how can there also be so many alternate timelines and variants as well?

Okay, The best I can explain it is our approach with time travel was the philosophy basically that time is always happening. So there are infinite instances of time always occurring at once. So you and I are having this conversation right now. There’s another instance of us having this conversation 10 seconds ago. There’s another instance of time of us having this conversation 10 seconds in the future. Generally, those three instances — you could literally say they’re all different universes in a way different timelines — are all the same. There are minute little fluctuations in each instance of time. So in you and I’s conversation, five times out of ten, I pick up and I say, “Hello.” And four times out of ten, I say, “Hey, nice to meet you.” And then maybe one time out of ten, I’d say, “Hey man, f— you. I don’t want to do this interview.”

[laughs] Right.

And that’s just how time works. There’s always like different permutations and instances happening. The TVA has their own barometer, their own gauge of what constitutes a deviation from the baseline, the way it’s supposed to go. The way it went that produced He Who Remains. That is their baseline. And so they are constantly calculating, “Okay, we see how time has always...” If you zoomed in on the timeline, it wouldn’t necessarily look like a straight line. It might look like almost the intertwined strands of a rope fluctuating and spiking here and there. When it becomes a problem for the TVA is when, according to their own rules, when could something branch off in a way that it could actually produce a new timeline that could produce a new version of He Who Remains? That is the practical thing that they’re guarding against. Does that answer your question?

And this statement from Spider-Man: No Way Home:
Stephen Strange: Parker, don't you realize that in the multiverse, there are an infinite number of people who know Peter Parker is Spider-Man? And if that spell gets loose, they're all coming here!
 
Basically so that the CRT can be understood correctly, all the statements about the multiverse before the events of Loki and the death of He Who Remains actually refer to the Sacred Timeline, since it was isolated from the rest of the multiverse by He Who Remains. Therefore, the statements of the infinite universes, realities and dimensions of Ancient One and Dormammu refer to the Sacred Timeline and not to the multiverse as a whole. And after the death of He Who Remains, the Sacred Timeline was freed, branching out into bigger timelines and connecting with the rest of the multiverse
 
Technically, the Sacred Timeline is a collection of multiple timelines following the same path/outcome (particularly one where He Who Remains doesn't have variants). The two quotes I presented shows that the Sacred Timeline also has infinite timelines within it even before the Loki finale, and each individual timeline can be considered 2A due to the infinite number of dimensions in each.
 
ThanatosX said:
Just to specify, I just discovered that now we accept that endless can mean infinite based on the context.
Considering the wording made by the Watcher, I think it's safe to say that the "endless possibilities" means "infinite possibilities".
Click to expand...
Well we have it stated infinite as well numerous times on top of endless and countless anyways so that was never in doubt else that'd be some silly downplay
 
Dalesean027 said:
Well we have it stated infinite as well numerous times on top of endless and countless anyways so that was never in doubt else that'd be some silly downplay
Click to expand...
Yes, but I think it's interesting because if "endless possibilities" is referred to the number of choices, which seems like it by the context of the phrase and the fact that in an infinite multiverse the number of possible choices would obviously be infinite, it would mean that the cosmology as a whole would be Infinite(number of realities inside a Timelines)*Infinite(number of choices)*Infinite(number of Timelines that branches from a single choice).
Also, this would mean that even if the 2-A rating for a single timeline is refuted for some reason, the cosmology would still be Infinite*Infinite.
 
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I agree.
but are those timelines superior to each other or not? Because infinite×infinite ad infinitum timelines would still be 2-A. Just higher degree of it.
 
RoTt35 said:
The purpose of the CRT is to make each timeline a 2-A structure ad infinitum (Since each timeline contains infinite universes, realities and dimensions, where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities), and the entire multiverse a higher degree of 2-A due to containing endless timelines
Click to expand...
I see.
 
Dread said:
Damn, tbh it sounds low 1-C, can you search for any evidence of qualitative superiority? Dig deeper.

But regardless, I agree, tho. Sounds reasonable.
Click to expand...
If it can qualify for low 1-C I'd say we could go for it tbh
 
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