Master Chief and other Halo infantry revision project

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was brought up a couple months back, but understandably, staff and other members have been quite busy to go through with this. But some important problems do need to be fixed.

Personally, since Master Chief is the main character and much of the verse, including stronger enemy species pretty much scales to him, I believe his profile clean up would be a start. As Reppuza mentioned, his profile contains quite a bit of plagiarism; much of it was copy and pasted from Halo Nation. I first notice that his summary is literally that, and there's also a large block of repetitive text containing plagiarism.

I can go ahead and rewrite his summary if anyone's alright; a paragraph of paraphrased text that summaries who the character is would be plausible? And as for the large block of text at the bottom of his page, I suppose getting rid of that text would be alright for now? We could re-add those abilities and/or equipment later, but it needs to be paraphrased and put in tabbers for better viewing.

The last thing would be changes to his statistics; which would scale to many other characters in the verse. I have my own thoughts on the revisions on my blog, and a couple others including FanofRPGs and Fllflourine seem ot be leaning towards my suggestions. But that's also open for discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably a good idea to invite the relevant staff members who took part in the previous discussion to comment here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have asked, Fanof, Fllflourine, and Soldier Blue; as far as staff goes, I'd say they're the main Halo supporters. I have also contacted Reppuzan as he's the one who mainly noticed the plagiarized texts. I shall wait for them to respond.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't mind going through these when I have time, but quite frankly the pages are a complete and utter mess.

I'll also try to evaluate the blog soon, but right now I'm locked out of NarutoForums.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, FanofRPGs kind of debunked most of the Halo calcs on that Naruto Forums blog as mentioned on this thread. Based on his explanation; there was far too much Calc Stacking. And iirc, there were way too many assumptions about certain weapons vaporizing targets; particularly the Onyx Sentinel Beam. Fuel Rod cannons, which are only 8-C were generally considered quite fatal compared Spartan shielding; primary reason most of us agree that Large Building level or City Block level seem quite exaggerated for his durability. But I agree that someone with access to NarutoForums should preferably take a look at that blog.

But the first thing I personally want to get out of the way would be the plagiarized text; I was thinking about re-writing Master Chief's summary and maybe just getting rid of the notable techniques section until it can get formatted and worded more properly. Preferably using tabbers for various equipment.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

The summary shouldn't be hard to rewrite.

It's getting everything else out of the way that's difficult.

At this point, I'm tempted to just delete the profile and start from scratch.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Reppuzan, that's pretty reasonable, but a few of his stats such as Lifting Strength and Speed look alright. I suppose I could try making my blog look more like a complete profile in the meantime.

 

[Fllflourine]

A little on the side here, but shouldnt Master Chief also have the iconic characters category? He's basically the icon of console shooters.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I suppose he should be considered an Iconic character. Summary was already fixed, I have this statistics revision on my blog; but the most important thing that needs revising is the notable techniques section; poor format, large block of text, and plagiarism is pretty much what that one is. I personally think we could delete that section altogether for now; until we create a more proper format.

But as a side note, I'm personally leaning towards his Large Building level durability feat an outlier and removing that from his profile; the City Block level+ rating is definitely going to be removed from durability.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that he has enough general public renown and proven lasting appeal to qualify as iconic.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, that is a good point. A general iconic character and iconic character in the VS debating community are two different things. When it comes to debates, I suppose he's still no where near as popular as various Dragon Ball, Marvel, DC, or HST characters.

 

[Fllflourine]

Oh yeah, that is a good point. A general iconic character and iconic character in the VS debating community are two different things. When it comes to debates, I suppose he's still no where near as popular as various Dragon Ball, Marvel, DC, or HST characters.

we have pages like space invaders and asterix in iconic characters, yet i don't see them being used in vs debates as much as say, Chief (i do a quick search of "master chief vs" and its loaded with results and TNs for fights). Space invaders is iconic, but not iconic in the vs debating community.

On-topic: for now we can delete that monstrously gargantuan wall of text below the notable attacks / techniques section, but i can help with paraphrasing its replacement.

i agree with DDM's proposals for master chief's stat revisions, but why MCB with armor lockup/invincibility? Is there an 8-A attack that it shrugs off?

 

[Antvasima]

The iconic characters category should only be used for very mainstream well-known characters, not ones strictly popular in our community.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, I'm not quite the best person to ask as far as adding Iconic character to their profiles, but I'll lean towards whatever most of the staff think.

Alright, I'll get rid of the Notable techniques section for now until a better format gets written.

And I think Multi-City Block level durability with shots power ups comes from being completely immune to all 8-B or lower attacks, but I suppose "at least City Block level" might be better description.

 

[Fllflourine]

I'd think that master chief qualifies for that, as he is basically the icon of Xbox gaming, halo has been a thing since 2001, grossing nearly $3.4 bil with games alone (with more copies sold than games like donkey kong, tomb raider, and crash bandicoot, and while Wikipedia is not the best source, its a popular one, outright calling him a video game ico, even if relatively new compared to the likes of Mario, Sonic, and Lara Croft), and im pretty sure that people outside of halo's target demographic can recognize him as master chief.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he seems to be a borderline case then, but we prefer clear-cut ones, or people will start to make inappropriate additions to the category.

 

[Fllflourine]

what would you say would make him a "clear-cut" case for being iconic?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, not just on the website; but other VS debating communities offsite as well; they got to be popular just about everywhere else. Having power scaling being big part of their respective verse or crossover matches happening quite often could also factor in. Nintendo characters for example are also popular thanks Smash Bros, which does count as a crossover, and many of those character have often been compared to various Marvel and DC characters on a multitude of other VS debating committees. Hard for me to explain, but there are many factors that need to be accounted when it comes to "Iconic Characters." I will say that Goku or Superman are very clear cut examples of this category.

 

[Antvasima]

@Fllflourine

Being very distinctive and well-known to a general mainstream audience for a considerable period of time. I have just vaguely heard of the character for example.

 

[KarmodF]

I dont have the time to fully check the Blog, but just the weakness part is so wrong, "MJOLNIR regenerating shields grant no protection against Melee attacks to the chestal area and is dependant on MJOLNIR plating durability rating against physical blows.", thats something that you bring up for no reason on a VS and used on every Chief treath, it hasnt been proven real since the shields react to meelee from other Spartans like against a shoulder charge and bullets.

"MJOLNIR shields and armor are very susceptible to electricity." They are weak against plasma, not electricity, the EMP effect of the Plasma pistol is different.

The Fact that Halo calcs ae heavily based on just Stacking is something that you repeat but never give reasoning not to mention that the fact that Spartans die from Fule Rod Canons as an excuse for nerf is useless since these vaporize normal Humans with ease and the AP could easilly scale to the Spartans dura., not because Mr. A destoyed a Planet and latter damged Mr. B who is able to tank blows from Solar System foes means Mr. B's Durability is far below Solar System, It means that Mr. A is stronger and that he just uses a weaker feat but is able to scale to stronger characters.

I hope Flo gives points because my actual interest is on the Forerunners revision, so I cant be replying a lot.

NOTE: The Jackal calc. doesnt take into acount the fact that they are 9-B durability, Vaporaizing a Tall Human is one thing, vaporaizing a Tiny Wall is another

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it is how Spartans are particularly portrayed in the games; many characters in the Halo universe easily die in three punches from characters on their level. Additionally, Spartan Charge was calc'd at 9-A; so either they do have a weakness to melee attacks or Spartan durability, shields included, are only 9-A at best. And bullets are different from melee attacks, no one said it doesn't grant protection from them. Additionally, most bullet based weapons are 9-C to 9-B anyway. Other feats such as the crash landing feat was also only calc'd at Wall level.

And actually, the weakness to electricity was mentioned by FanofRPGs on another thread, not me. But anyway, he mentioned that Spartans were susceptible to plasma and electrical weaponry and Soldier Blue also agreed that it should apply to all those who scale to them as well.

Edit: Their is also a massive difference between characters with ki manipulation and characters using guns to perform their feats. Ki users typically have the ability to harness a Planet level or above attack to the point where area of effect is only Wall level. Same thing could also be applied for magic users or great martial artists using melee attacks as well. Firearms don't have that same level of control; there's a good reason people don't use Rocket Propelled grenades just to kill one insect to save a another insect; they'd only end up killing all the insects and causing collateral and/or environmental damage in the process.

As as for the Kig-Yar vaporization calc; actually the tier of the target is irrelevant. Simply dividing a character's durability by a normal human's durability and simply using that as the result would be borderline Calc Stacking. Especially considering normal humans IRL technically have Street level durability when it comes to survivability. It would have more to do with the biological or mechanical chemistry of the target that determines the amount of energy required to vaporise. Yes, given that Kig-Yars have less body fat and more muscle mass than normal humans, it would likely require more than 450 megajoules, but simply dividing character A by character B's durability is Calc Stacking; it would still be higher in the 9-A range. There is still no evidence that Kig-Yars have notable heat resistance; heat based attacks typically negate durability unless a character does have some form of heat resistance. Additionally, if we went by that suggestion; the High Templar would have been calc'd at Low 7-B due to vaporizing 4 8-C characters; being the Zerglings. And trust me, that rating seems way too high for the Terran Marines to scale to. I know that's off topic but it further proves that we can't use that multiplier.

And about Tier 8 durability arguments, the Onyx Sentinel Beam calc actually had quite a few problems; their is a massive difference between pulverization and vaporization. Way to many of the calcs mentioned on Regi's NF blogs had too many assumptions about using the vaporization value. NF is currently locked from visitors, but in order for a value to be considered vaporization; their needs to be evidence about turning a solid or liquid object into a gas. IIRC, the Onyx Sentinel only crumbled that rock to dust; there was no evidence of it melting a rock let alone converting it into a gas. If the pulverization for that value was used, we get 21.22 tonnes / 25,700 * 214.35 = ~177 kilograms of TNT equivalent; Small Building level+ and 9-A. A much more consistent and believable value.

Also, the Large Building level or 5.38 tonnes of kinetic energy statement also has its flaws. There is no proof that Master Chief was being launched at that speed. Looking at this video again, we might be able to calc the speed he's actually being launched from their, but the awkward camera angle is a but much for me; I'm personally more used to linear cameras and don't often trust pixel scalings. But he does roughly appear to be traveling 10 to 20 times his 2.18 meter height. Going to highball it by inserting 218 meters per second as his speed; which is 100 times his height for each second. His 450 kg weight and 218 mps speed would get a calc at 10,692,900 joules or only Wall level+. Yet another not so impressive feat.

In short, with more reasonable calcs, Fuel Rod Cannon is still the strongest attack that arguably scales to Spartan durability. And even then, it knocks them down for the count after one hit, and destroys Spartans after the 2nd hit. Additionally, other 9-A attacks such as Anti-Tank RPGs typically one shot Spartans.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Why are we counting game mechanics into this? You do realize that ingame balance features are going to differ from the actual canon(Novels,comics,etc) Determining the Spartan's tier from game mechanics seems idiotic to me tbh. As I recall people in this thread mentioning how Spartans get oneshotted by 9-B weapons ingame.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, no; we're not going be using game mechanics. Spartans getting killed by lightly touching shallow streams of water would be an example of obvious game mechanics, as is being killed by pistols. However, the strongest melee attacks of Halo Spartans are calc'd at 9-A; it is canon that Spartans and Elites are capable of killing each other with melee attacks, so 9-A durability for MJOLNIR is what most of us are leaning towards.

No one said Spartans get oneshotted by 9-B weapons; although, he does still get damaged by them in both games and books. I did say that 9-A weapons such Anti-Tank missiles oneshot Spartans, but I wasn't suggesting that to be in his profile; was just justifying that anything above 8-C seems exaggerated for their durability. But I was more highlighting the Fuel Rod Cannon, which is close to baseline 8-C. Although FanofRPGs also mentioned on another thread that the 9-A needlers often casually tear of the limbs of Spartan level troops.

Anyway, my current suggestions are listed here; so far, both Fllflourine and FanofRPGs approved of them, and maybe Soldier Blue? But I'd also like to hear Reppuzan's thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

I would also appreciate an evaluation from Reppuzan.

 

[KarmodF]

Wall of text.

-But there is a High 8-C Durability in their profiles, why only 9-A because of one calc. when they have stronger Dura., the Weakness should be deleted, there is no good argument against it, same with the Electricity one unless of somebody posting source.

-The problem is that the Rocket Launcher is made to destroy Tanks... made of stronger alineation than the Spartans, meaning that the Heavy Weapons scale to their Dura., similar case with the Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, Fuel Rod, they have stats that heavily difer from actuals feats, similar case of Toriyama not understanding the Power of DBZ/S

Tough if I remember correctly in a Art Image from a classic game shows a Spartan taking damage from the Splash of the Scarab from Halo 3, who is around Low 7-C as far as I remember.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Large Building level durability was debunked; Fllflourine said he doesn't know where the Hypersonic+ speed or 5.38 tonnes of TNT came from on another thread. But the ship was actually not moving; it was floating stationary. Also, I so no indication of Chief being launched at Supersonic speed, let alone Hypersonic+. Anyway, given the awkward camera angle, it's roughly hard to calc; but he appears to be flying at around 22 to 44 m/s roughly; around 10-20 times his height for each second. Anyway, I actually highballed it doing a kinetic energy calc at 218 m/s and only came out at Wall level+; see above.

I'm well aware that Rocket Launchers are designed to destroy tanks, but destroying tanks IRL is only 9-A. Sniper Rifles and Shotguns are only 9-B and are just and having them severely injure Spartans I can safely pass as just game mechanics; there's a reason Doom pistol isn't 7-C. Besides, if Marines and Kig-Yars can survive Sniper Rifles, I don't think they should be considered 9-A. And actually, to be fair, Spartans have survived Rocket Launchers in the books, but just barely; still only 9-A. And as I mentioned above, the original 8-B calc for Onyx sentinels also have their problems.

Also, no assumptions about Scarabs being Low 7-C unless there's a calc that proves it; although, Narutoforums is locked so it might be difficult. And no calc stacking if the reason is about "Vaporizing 8-B vehicles either." They blew up/pulverised 9-A vehicles maybe, but not vaporize them. But an image would be helpful, yes.

As for the weaknesses, I meant Spartans are very susceptible to melee attacks on their own level. A lot of projectiles such as bullets chip away the shield meter, but don't damage his health until his shield bar is empty. Melee attacks function the same way plasma weapons do in game; they significantly damage his health as well as his shields; even when his shields were initially max level. Now that I got the game mechanic details out of the way, I will discuss the scientific details next. Room Class striking strength basically dents the MJOLNIER somewhat and sort of messes up some of the functions. More importantly, the titanium plating basically gets pressed into the Spartans' chest, basically piercing their flesh and braking their bones. So basically 9-A level of blunt force trauma is what's pushing a 9-A to 8-C durability level suit of armor into a 9-B body and crushes that 9-B body. That's where the weakness comes from, but I suppose I could word it better in my blog.

We could ask FanofRPGs on the weakness to electricity, but we should note that it's common for metal armor so be vulnerable to electricity. Even Darth Vader has that weakness listed on his profile despite none of the movie mentioning that; and none of the movies actually explain that. It mainly came from the ESU that detailed Vader being unable to perform Force Lightning all because of his metal armor. However, it is still confirmed to be a canon weakness. Also, Master Chief is still vulnerable to plasma weaponry; and electricity actually is scientifically a form of plasma matter. So weakness to plasma could reference weakness to electricity as being an example.

And yes, there do exist other 8-B infantry weapons such as the Spartan Laser and certain grenades, but those typically obliterate 5 or 6 Spartans at once and can't scale to their durability. Anyway, let's wait for Reppuzan to respond.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Alright I'm cool with Spartans having 9-A to possibly 8-C durability. Just making sure we wouldn't have a 9-C or 9-B Master Chief. What about MC's speed will that see any changes? And How would MC even utilize nukes and the Super MAC in combat. He would just kill himself if he were to use that in a debate.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@VersusJunkie54 Well, those are generally considered outside help; so he'd obviously only have access to them on certain threads; and preferably against characters who have that level of durability. For the nukes, if he has a bubble shield or something nearby, they could give him protection. Plus he'd obviously have to be far enough from his opponent in order to use them. StarCraft Ghosts have a rather similar rule.

As for speed, I've been thinking about that actually. Movement speed should still be the same, but I'm considering whether or not his Combat speed should scale to his Reactions. He has reacted and fought the Promethean Lancer Knights, who should be Supersonic+ via teleporters and casually dodging bullets.

 

[KarmodF]

Chief's speed is so underplayed, Supersonic when he has fought against enemies that use plasma and light weapons.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I vaguely recall the plasma projectiles were calc'd at Subsonic; it's how fast the bolts travel in the books, but he has dodged a pistol fire at point blank range and he's capable of landing punches on other Spartans, so it should scale to his combat speed as well. As for the light weapons, only the Spartan laser has been proven to have that speed and it's completely undodgeable; but it requires a 5 second charge. I did add Speed of Light attack speed with Spartan laser to the blog though.

 

[KarmodF]

-"I vaguely recall the plasma projectiles were calc'd at Subsonic" didnt plasma scales High Hypersonic? not to mention Halo The Package where he dodges and runs so fast that not even an entire room full of Elites and Grunts were capable of hitting a single bullet, but those are probably useless since a HW2 Character dodged Beams that came from a Forerunner Construct, but these looked slow, probably In-Game, tho a calc. would be better.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know plasma projectiles IRL due generally move faster than solar winds, which are High Hypersonic. And the Doom guidebooks actually have compared their plasma weaponry to solar winds, but not sure if Covenant weapons from Halo follow that same logic. Although, speed of bullets actually very; handgun bullets are 900-1800 MPH, or Supersonic to Supersonic+, while Rifle bullets could range from 1800-4500 MPH which could be Hypersonic. That could scale to the Lancer Knights which would in turn, scale to MC's reactions and combat speed.

 

[KarmodF]

-Well this is real Plasma, there have been no contradiction to say that it doesnt follow the same laws as ours, Forerunner weapons are Speed of Light, made by Hardlight that shoot Hardlight with weapon engines made of, you guested... Hard Metal... reinfroced by Hardlight.

-How do we take in-game feats?, say a character that moves at speed that the Player can react? or depending on something else?.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, High Hypersonic is a possibility, but the Speed of Light stuff definitely does not scale to Spartan reactions. The particle forming to create the projectile are lightspeed, but not the projectile being fired. Spartan laser is the only projectile that moves at lightspeed, and it's completely undodgeable.

 

[KarmodF]

-Not only High Hypersonic, there could be a calc. about the Package.

-" but the Speed of Light stuff definitely does not scale to Spartan reactions." Who nows, take into acount the fact that Waden Eternal shoots miniature Black Holes, that Knighs could fight against other Knights and the HW 2 feat, It just need more feedback instead of throwing of the board.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Okay so Supersonic+ Combat and Reaction speed with possibly Hypersonic reactions am I getting this right? Also what about MC's physical AP. Will that see any changes?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Physical AP will be 9-A as mentioned above; the High 8-C rating with direct impact is going to be removed; since Spartan Charge/Direct Impact was calc'd at only 9-A.

 

[KarmodF]

Okay so Supersonic+ Combat and Reaction speed with possibly Hypersonic reactions am I getting this right? Also what about MC's physical AP. Will that see any changes?

Is actually both Speed/Combat Speed and Reactions.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, I looked at various weapon profiles from Halo nation, and I was right about the Covenant weapons. Plasma Rifle is only Subsonic; 126 m/s or mach 0.367 to be specific. Also, the Type-51 Carbine appears to be the fastest Forerunner projectile weapon with a proven speed rating; 700 m/s or mach 2.041. The projectile speed ratings are listed where it says "Muzzle Velocity." And yeah, there were a few weapons that has lightspeed muzzle velocity, but all of those weapons were clearly stated to be undodgeable. And there were also a couple Forerunner weapons that do mention emitting light, but don't necessarily have a damaging attack that is lightspeed.

Also, Warden Eternal doesn't shoot "black holes;" he opens slipspace portals, but in no way do they behave anything like a black hole. So in other words, they're completely unquantifiable for scaling. However, his combat speed should still scale to his reactions; and their might be a possibility for a speed rating that surpasses Supersonic+, but no High Hypersonic yet at least, and definitely no Speed of Light ratings aside from attack speed with certain weapons.