Massive Homestuck Overhaul (Additions, Removals and changes) (Act 1)

[Thelastmlg]

A few months ago i started a blog to grab the homestuck profiles and change quite a lot of their content and how they are executed, the changes including:

• Scaling
• Additions
• Removals
• Justifications
• Minor fixes

HOMESTUCK OVERHAUL LET'S GO

vsbattles.fandom.com

Turns out the website couldn't handle it all being in 1 blog and i started being unable to edit the blog any further (Cascade all over again), so i separated it into two blogs

Also need to decide on how to deal with the evidence that relies on the books, should i make a blog similar to quasiyuri's showing each book's statement for it?

In this Thread, we will tackle the first blog's profiles, i'll list the names down and whenever they are fine and have been added to the actual profiles, i'll strikethrough them:

John Egbert
========
Rose Lalonde
Dave Strider
Jade Harley
Davesprite
Jane Crocker
Roxy Lalonde
Dirk Strider
Jake English
Aradia Megido
Tavros Nitram
Sollux Captor
Karkat Vantas
Nepeta Leijon
Kanaya Maryam
Terezi Pyrope
Vriska Serket
Equius Zahhak
Gamzee Makara
Eridan Ampora
Feferi Peixes
Aranea Serket
Her Imperious Condescension

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

Bump?

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good, you really put the work in.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I agree with the changes here.

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

Same, I guess

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree with the changes

 

[Roun12]

Absurd amount of work across these blogs. Nice one.

 

[KLOL506]

@Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Ultima_Reality @CrimsonStarFallen Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What are the simplified list of note worthy changes?

 

[deonment]

Okay, this is gonna be long, but I'm just gonna go group by group (starting with the alpha kids) because good lord I am not going through and arguing about all this at once

Reading through this stuff, I will say that there is genuine reason for the creation of a sburb/sgrub player verse pna, given how much stuff is shared between them.

Starting with John

Enhanced Air Manipulation and Weather Manipulation (Possess full control over his classpect’s powers now, allowing him to summon gigantic windstorms, concentrated drilling tornados and more precise gusts of wind to move large objects)

This should probably also be some degree of concept manip (and low 1-A at that, but not typically combat applicable) because of the fact that god tiers manipulate the aspects to do their stuff, and those who master its manipulation should be equivalent to Dave and Jade who could both manipulate the aspects in their fullest extent as they are within the Furthest Ring, along with the fact he could use it to mess with the stardust glitches in the Furthest Ring

Resurrection (Due to his Conditional Immortality, John will always resurrect if his death isn't considered as Heroic or Just, healing any wounds, recovering his entire body and even soul from destruction)

Okay, this is something general to all god tiers, and I don't really have much to say here, just want to have the level of ress be qualified along with saying that given how Rose and Dave went god tier, it should be high godly given they could come back from existing in the Green Sun, which from what we know from what it did to MSPA reader, should be some degree of narrative and conceptual fuckery

John's existence transcends canon itself, which is composed of Truth, Relevancy and Essentiality, with non-canon things being prone to being conceptually unravelled and forgotten by existence.

Should include the stuff about John also saying how he isn't fully a part of reality anymore from 6363

Possibly unbound by the aspects themselves due to making up the reality that john is unbound by and all ideas are compositions of various aspects), Possibly Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Air Manipulation and Subjective Reality (Possibly unbound by the aspects themselves)

Honestly if you want to do this, just give John nonduality, the aspects are innately dualities, while I disagree

Rose next

Limited Reality Warping (Seemingly warped reality by clashing with Bec noir)

This seems more like like light flashing out because of their clash rather than her somewhat warping reality (or ignoring the fact that the god dog she is fighting is a known reality warper)

All previous abilities to a far higher degree, including the abilities of every version of herself (The capacities of God Tiers become stronger the better they understand and pratice their aspect, with Ultimate Selves being the result of one reaching the deepest understanding of their aspect and becoming one with the totality of every version of themselves across paradox space, including those killed and erased, and her being is inextricably connected to her aspect)

Ult selves should get some form of AE, probably type 1 for their transcendental selves and type 2 for the bodies they take on

Also for the ult tier pic, I think rose as she appears here is better

Dave up next

Key: Base | God Tier

Missing the ult tier key

Can cut through unbreakable items like the Unbreakable Katana)

Unbreakable katana doesn't qualify for invul under our new standards so this shouldn't be a part of the justification

Enhanced Time Manipulation, Summoning, Time Travel and Time Stop (As a Knight of Time, Dave exploits the flow of time as a weapon, allowing him to time travel without his Timetables, Cause time distortions, shift parts of his body through time, reverse time on targets, suspend them in time and with dirk's help, split things like souls through time)

Should mention how he was the one to help the meteor travel through the furthest ring via his mastery of time

The most precious girl (Jade) next

Spatial Manipulation, True Flight, Teleportation, Durability Negation, Telekinesis, Size Manipulation and Pocket Reality Manipulation (As a Witch of Space, Jade is capable of bending the fabric of space in order to control velocity and size, which is vastly increased with the spatial powers of a first guardian, letting her shrink down objects, including lands the size of states and the battlefield, which is far larger than them and even the earth, move objects around, Teleport others, herself and even lands, affect internal organs, let out spatial distortions around her, empower her bullets with spatial-anomalies while spliting space around her, warp energy around her to avoid explosions and control mental spaces)

You already talked about it later in the same profile, but once more, bringing up how Jade could affect space in the furthest ring would be nice

Likely Invulnerability (First guardians are considered to be indestructible to a degree)

Compared to LE who we know the mechanics of his invulnerability, we sadly don't for first guardians and so they don't qualify for invul

Davesprite next and that will be it for this post

Nothing much, just think it would be better to link to Dave and Nepeta's base keys and say that they have all the powers of them (Dave in their first key and Nepeta in their second), and then list the powers they have individually just to save space, and also not have to change their page whenever either Dave or Nepeta get revised.

That's it, I aint touching the stats with a genesis frog sized pole

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I trust Deon's evaluation of this.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Thelastmlg]

Okay wow thanks wiki for not telling me about deon’s massive freaking reply, i’ll reply as soon as i can cuz i got a lot to say, and yeah i agree with most of it lol

 

[Thelastmlg]

This should probably also be some degree of concept manip (and low 1-A at that, but not typically combat applicable) because of the fact that god tiers manipulate the aspects to do their stuff, and those who master its manipulation should be equivalent to Dave and Jade who could both manipulate the aspects in their fullest extent as they are within the Furthest Ring, along with the fact he could use it to mess with the stardust glitches in the Furthest Ring

I can definitely see that, just need scans to explain it, and yeah it would be low 1-A in potency but not range (kinda funny cuz they all should scale to low 1-A probably)

Okay, this is something general to all god tiers, and I don't really have much to say here, just want to have the level of ress be qualified along with saying that given how Rose and Dave went god tier, it should be high godly given they could come back from existing in the Green Sun, which from what we know from what it did to MSPA reader, should be some degree of narrative and conceptual fuckery

I seen that sentiment before and i can see the reasoning behind it, but high godly regen/ressurection is a pretty big upgrade so we'd need to gather evidence for it, i tried checking it out and here is the list i can think of regarding the Green Sun:

-It is the "largest source of raw narrative mass in the multiverse"
-it "made a mess of the themes" and "dragged motifs to the surface" of mspareader's body
-being inside of it is like being inside of a miasma of causation
-it granted calliope's black hole the power to destroy the furthest ring (of which all ideas come from the aspects there) and calliope's the power to hijack the narrative
-it granted MSPAReader the power to be larger and inside of his story and locking it from causality, and to stop the Blackout
-seemed to mess with MSPAReader, who at this point could basically walk off being hurt on a thematic level and hit in the narrative, and survived the treasure who imbued him with metanarrative energy which is dangerous to corporeal forms
-there might be more specifics i'm missing

also you could argue that since Lord English's lasers can break the furthest ring, and that god tiers can't come back due to him bypassing their immortality rather than it's power, that it could also be conceptual ressurection

i think there is evidence of the green sun hurting you on a conceptual and narrative level, but since it is not explicitly stated, i think it would lead to a likely/possible upgrade

This seems more like like light flashing out because of their clash rather than her somewhat warping reality (or ignoring the fact that the god dog she is fighting is a known reality warper)

Also for the ult tier pic, I think rose as she appears here is better

Missing the ult tier key

Unbreakable katana doesn't qualify for invul under our new standards so this shouldn't be a part of the justification

Compared to LE who we know the mechanics of his invulnerability, we sadly don't for first guardians and so they don't qualify for invul

Nothing much, just think it would be better to link to Dave and Nepeta's base keys and say that they have all the powers of them (Dave in their first key and Nepeta in their second), and then list the powers they have individually just to save space, and also not have to change their page whenever either Dave or Nepeta get revised.

Totally agree with those, honestly they were just me grabbing the justifications rather than removing them, but

Rose's rely on interpretating the light effects as an ability rather than stylish explosion, and it being a shared effort i guess

i tried finding any time the katana is even called unbreakable outside of it's name, legit i haven't found a single moment it is called indestructible, unbreakable, invulnerable, whatever, it is only ever by name lol, only evidence i could see is it being used since the beginning by dirk and bro strider, and still being used against god tier level enemies, even then it could just be that the sword was that powerful since the beginning since it is a cherub weapon

and yeah that update gave a lot of great portraits for us, i'd argue that since the wiki prefers full body pics, dirk's first pose might be preferable, though i really like his muscular PQ sprite

Should include the stuff about John also saying how he isn't fully a part of reality anymore from 6363

Honestly if you want to do this, just give John nonduality, the aspects are innately dualities, while I disagree

Ult selves should get some form of AE, probably type 1 for their transcendental selves and type 2 for the bodies they take on

Should mention how he was the one to help the meteor travel through the furthest ring via his mastery of time

You already talked about it later in the same profile, but once more, bringing up how Jade could affect space in the furthest ring would be nice

yeah ngl i might have tried cooking too hard on that lol, i'll take it off since it might be too much of a reach

agreed, Dirk describes himself as a monolith of concentrated narrative authority, rose states that her being is inextricably linked to her aspect, they are on the same level as calliope who's the embodiment of space and nigh omnipresent, etc

though for those last two we need scans, cuz i tried searching for that dave part and i couldn't find it, but Jade did affect shards of the furthest ring in the epilogues

 

[Eseseso]

Just curious, would weakened Lord English (the Low 1-A key) have his hax be Low 1-A in potency?

If so I want to make a match with that key.

 

[deonment]

I can definitely see that, just need scans to explain it, and yeah it would be low 1-A in potency but not range (kinda funny cuz they all should scale to low 1-A probably)

Think this would be apart of it, but for the life of me I cannot remember the rest and I cannot find it within myself to read through act 5 again, that shit has killed my attempts to reread the series again multiple times

and yeah that update gave a lot of great portraits for us, i'd argue that since the wiki prefers full body pics, dirk's first pose might be preferable, though i really like his muscular PQ sprite

Yeah, the new Karkat art was very nice

 

[Thelastmlg]

Just curious, would weakened Lord English (the Low 1-A key) have his hax be Low 1-A in potency?

If so I want to make a match with that key.

Think some of it is still 1-A, like his poison, immortality, invulnerability, etc

 

[Eseseso]

Think some of it is still 1-A, like his poison, immortality, invulnerability, etc

Darn, was gonna do Lord English in his Low 1-A key vs Low 1-A Dormammu.

But I guess I'll have to wait for Ultima to upgrade the Marvel abstracts to 1-A and I'll have the 2 fight at their 1-A peaks.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Pretty sure Lord English still has his passives even when Depowered as they come from him being a Lord of Time iirc.

 

[Thelastmlg]

We also got the extremely important task of finding out where does equius’ lifting strength feat come from

I searched through the comic, searched for keywords on the unofficial collection with transcript and book commentary mods, checked a video showing all animations he appears on (we reach the flash just before his death 20 seconds in lol), checked pesterquest, even tried to check the black king fan animation and paradox space comics and i still found nothing

 

[deonment]

Gonna stop being lazy and continue this

Jane is fine

Roxy

(type 1, [3]They are a Paradox Clone, meaning they were created by being copied from a different point in time)

Is the [3] at the start intentional or?

Resurrection (Jane resurrected half the life on her planet)

For Trickster mode, I don't think this should apply to anyone but Jane, who we directly know is a maid of life, so her trickster mode doing this isn't exactly out of the purview of her preexisting domain, so it should be removed from Roxy, Dirk and Jake

Dirk

is connected to his alternate selves and can fuse with them if timelines merge, even though Dave and Terezi didn't)

Not only is the directly contradicted a few seconds later, even if it were the case, the fact that Dave and Terezi weren't affected is likely because they were the one using the power to travel through time, and once again, a few seconds after the timestamp we do just directly see Dave and Terezi fuse into their "other" selves

No issues with Jake

Oh yeah, also wanted to say that all plot manip should also be some variety of causality manipulation due to the high degree of synonymity the narrative and causality has, especially with all of the epilogue stuff in pesterquest (notably the inside of the green sun being called a miasma of causation)
I'll deal with the trolls next in a mega post because yeah, there is a lot there

 

[Thelastmlg]

Nah i was just dumb

I thought i had removed that from the other’s profile, oops

Those are different scenarios, the first fraymotif fused timelines, the other sent them back in time, this isn’t a contradiction, those are just different mechanics

Dirk is connected to his alternate selves, not his past and future selves, and his future was not merged into the past, unlike his alternate timeline selves which were brought to the fraymotif like everyone else

Considering terezi was helping there, the fraymotif was probably sending their minds back in time rather than their bodies, thus having the fusion represent that

 

[deonment]

Trolls next (hope this won't be a right pain in the ass)
Actually, before that, I noticed everyone has limited cosmic awareness and 4th wall breaking, I know where it is from, but it also all unjustified (bar in the case of john), so is it just like that because it was like that on the profiles or is that just something that is missing?
Also you don't need to justify ghosts being noncorporeal you know? It's just a basic assumption that can be made.
Also I think it is entirely justifiable to make a troll physiology page at this rate along with the sburb/sgrub player page but that is just me
Anyways

Aradia

Mind Control (Vriska can't control her),

Should apply to everyone we know is psychically gifted since that is the specified reason

The ghost powers

This should be a separate subtabber as a part of her base key because she just isn't a ghost 24/7 (like yeah but you get what i mean by this.), also you don't exactly need to justify ghosts

Acausality (Type 1, [4]She's a Paradox Clone, meaning she was created by being copied from a different point in time)

Another instance of the number in brackets at the start

Resistance to Poison Manipulation

Isn't justified

Tavros next
The image for his GCATavrosprite key is borked

Sollux

Limited Resistance to Plot Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Can resist Andrew Hussie's influence, and Vriska's mind control only works for half the time for him)

Given what we know hussie's influence includes, this should be more than just plot and mind manip

Karkat and Nepeta are fine

Kanaya

Mad fashion skills

Why is this even here

[5]She's a Paradox Clone, meaning she was created by being copied from a different point in time)

Another instance

Terezi

[6]She's a Paradox Clone, meaning she was created by being copied from a different point in time)

Another one

Resistance to Plot Manipulation

No justification

Vriska
Just generally more stuff missing justification and having the number and brackets before the aca justification

Likely Reality Warping (Seemingly constantly changed the background when she fought with Bec Noir)

Once more, known reality warper involved in the fight, and most of the background changes can be reasonably explained away rather than being outright reality warping on her end

Equius

possesses multiples pasts, all of them being the "truth"

At least from my point of view (and unless I'm forgetting something), this is less that and moreso MSPA reader viewing multiple points in Equius' timeline

See no issues with Gamzee

Eridan

Expert (sea)horseman

Once again, why is this here

Feferi is fine

Aranea

Mind Manipulation (Can mind control other trolls)

It isn't just trolls she can control, so

Possible Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation (Believed she could use her powers to turn a doomed timeline into the Alpha timeline)

Given literally everything we know about the alpha timeline, I severely doubt her capacity to do so, especially given we know she overestimates herself (See her thinking she can actually ******* win against The Imperial Condesence)

See no issues with Her Imperious Condescension

 

[Thelastmlg]

The limited awareness part is something i need help with, cuz it was added since all the characters can break the fourth wall in subtle ways but i need scans for that

Those 2 bolded skills were just there and i decided not to remove them

Should mention that bec noir is not a “known reality warper” he warps space and stuff but he mostly uses it to teleport, no first guardian has shown the reality warping to change the background besides doc scratch’s plot manipulation

And the background changing and remaining changed like that isn’t given a justification so i put it as likely reality warping since she was the one responsible for it

MSPAReader said that his past exists in multiple truths or something, rather than him seeing different points in time, from what i recall one of those pasts had equius die as a grub

Aranea tells jake that she can’t mind control humans, and vriska states that the condesce also can’t do that, is just kind of a consistent limitation on their mind control, they can’t do it cross species (besides underlings)

Is why it is given a possible, she is credited as having trained for eons her god tier abilities so there is a possibility that she is sure she can do it

Also she didn’t think she could win angaist the condesce, she was desperate once jake died and got mad, she was terrified when the condesce showed up and looked at her

 

[deonment]

And the background changing and remaining changed like that isn’t given a justification so i put it as likely reality warping since she was the one responsible for it

It could be the result of light from their clash (similar to the rose situation), in some it is very much just the scenery changing as they attack or move around, there are many explanations aren't just straight up reality warping

Aranea tells jake that she can’t mind control humans, and vriska states that the condesce also can’t do that, is just kind of a consistent limitation on their mind control, they can’t do it cross species (besides underlings)

Yeah outright control seems impossible, but they very much seem to have some degree of sway over them given the incidents of vriska putting john or jade to sleep, it seems less like they can't do it and more like something about how humanity works in homestuck (whether it be something different about the way their brain works or something else), that makes it not possible for them to control it, which I don't think would be applicable in combat

The limited awareness part is something i need help with, cuz it was added since all the characters can break the fourth wall in subtle ways but i need scans for that

Think it would just be easier to make the sburb player page and then link the incidents of people being aware of the narrative and 4th wall (ignoring ones involving the computer terminal)

Is why it is given a possible, she is credited as having trained for eons her god tier abilities so there is a possibility that she is sure she can do it

Given that Alpha Timeline fuckery is stuff that only exists on the level of the narrators and the like, I very much doubt her ability to do so