Quick Homestuck "Downgrades"

[KingPin0422]

So, as it currently stands, a handful of Homestuck profiles are rated as 1-A based on the following:

(Transcend every meta-rivers of which there is an number infinite hierarchy of creators, with each layer being infinitely greater, reaching the full light of Reality above even Horrorterrors)

This is actually perfectly fine for justifying 1-A as a whole, but the thing is, the game where this feat comes from (Pesterquest) is dubiously canon.

Now, what does "dubiously canon" mean? Well, it ties into the following explanation from Rose Lalonde at the beginning of the Homestuck Epilogues:

ROSE: Just because certain events take place outside of canon, it doesn’t mean those events are non-canon.
JOHN: oh.
ROSE: In other words, there is an important distinction between events which can be considered to occur inside canon, outside canon, and those which are not canon at all.
ROSE: The day we went through that door and claimed our reward, we passed a threshold between continua marked by differing degrees of relevance, truth, and essentiality.
ROSE: Those are the three pillars of canon.
JOHN: what?

ROSE: Any event said to take place inside canon will have nonzero values of relevance and essentiality, while maintaining an absolute foundation in truth, by definition.
ROSE: Whereas events outside canon have diminished values of relevance and essentiality. Or, for the most part, can be considered neither relevant nor essential at all.
ROSE: But such events can’t be said to be untrue either. Instead, it’s better to regard their truth value as highly conditional.
ROSE: Are you still following?

JOHN: oh, yeah. totally.
ROSE: So to be clear, everything that’s taken place here on Earth C since we exited canon can be considered completely irrelevant, and for the most part, absolutely inessential. Yet none of it can be called untrue.
ROSE: At least, up until precisely today.
JOHN: ok.
JOHN: then what does non-canon mean?
ROSE: Events that are formally non-canon have no truth whatsoever, by definition.
ROSE: They may have relevance and essentiality values that are nonzero, or even quite high, but only as projections along an imaginary axis, resulting from highly subjective frames of reference.
ROSE: But due to those events having no truth, and thus carrying no real weight, the other properties are basically rendered meaningless.

Basically, Homestuck is defined by three different levels of canon: inside canon, which is unconditionally true and will always have some degree of relevance and essentiality to the world at large; outside canon, which is conditionally true and is usually irrelevant and inessential, but not totally false; and non-canon, which is not true at all, and so, however relevant or essential it may be, it carries no weight and is effectively meaningless.

Now, this is where I can get into the meat of my argument: the 1-A feat mentioned above, due to coming from a dubiously canon source, should not be applied to the base canon. Besides the fact that "dubiously canon" content is, as I have just shown, not exactly 100% true, the Homestuck Epilogues are furthermore advertised as "Tales of dubious authenticity," Homestuck^2 is subtitled "Beyond Canon," and really, even the very term "dubiously canon" suggests that it's not totally canon.

So, if all of the above is accepted, what is going to happen? It's pretty simple:

1. Any "inside canon" characters who currently scale to 1-A (Lord English, Aradia Megido, the Horrorterrors, Andrew Hussie, John Egbert, etc.) will be downgraded.
2. Any "outside canon" characters who are part of "inside canon" profiles (Ultimate Dirk, Enlightened Feferi, etc.) will be split into their own profiles. This would also include Aradia and John, since their 1-A keys are based on their showings in Pesterquest.
3. Any "outside canon" characters who are completely separate from any "inside canon" profiles (MSPA Reader, etc.) will be unaffected.

As I said, this is a quick "downgrade" attempt, so I hope that discussion and approval/rejection goes by relatively quickly as well.

 

[Shyouu]

This seems honestly fine to me

 

[QuasiYuri]

We actually have a canonicity blog that explains why we aren't just dividing the keys and how it doesn't work with anything.

Besides, characters like Aradia are flat out said to still be their canon self in Pesterquest.

Also there's a difference between the fact that canon is an in-verse notion and what canon truly is. Even the original Homestuck had John/Roxy outside of their "canonical lives", and it certainly doesn't mean anything that happened in the white void (forgot the actual name) is litteraly non canon.

Dividing Dubiously Canon is the MSPA's wiki own decision, and not the same as Andrew or WhatPumpkin's decision.

However I could see something like SCP profiles with their "Extended Canon" key, with characters having a new key depending of how much changes it gives them. But even that seems a little useless imo.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I’m going to disagree.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Btw dirk in one of the bonus updates refers pesterquest so it should still be in the same cosmology as homestuck

 

[QuasiYuri]

Btw dirk in one of the bonus updates refers pesterquest so it should still be in the same cosmology as homestuck

Aradia explains how she went to Pesterquest in one of the chapters too.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Yeah hard disagree, We have reference to the event actually happening by characters which are currently in-canon. As they mentioed above:

ARADIA: yes almost exactly like that

DAVEBOT: who did you hang out with are they cooler than me

ARADIA: it is complicated to explain

DAVEBOT: oh ok nevermind then

DAVEBOT: all clear

DAVEBOT: a whole alternate universe ripe with the coolest ************* imaginable

ARADIA: you were there too i threw your air conditioner into the sun

DAVEBOT: wow thats ****** up

DAVEBOT: thats not where that goes at all

JADE: these events are not-canonical.

ARADIA: rude

And canon and non canon are more "real" in HS than other fiction, as they can be localized as status of reality in-verse. as Caliborn Juju is literally a harrow nexus between "canon, non canon, outside canon, post-canon and fanon"

Well, nice try. John can’t be here right now, because he’s stuck somewhere in the harrowing nexus between canon, post-canon, non-canon, outside canon, and fanon.
Source

Homestuck nature is that reality is made up of stories:

Spoiler: Stories

With Homestuck being the REAL one, the only canon story:

Spoiler: Homestuck sucks ass

and Pesterquest/Hiveswap Friendsim is another iteration of the story. Even the metaphysical entity that possesed Karako acknowledge this Meta river hierarchy was in "this instatiation" of the story and say that they(the hierarchy of creators) exist within the universes.

Spoiler: This story

and Aradia address the events that happens in Pesterquest. As well as MSPAReader reffering to Homestuck as the real story. Rose, Roxy, Alt.Calliope Marvus Xoloto all acknowledge that these not canon realities means something to those inside them, while being not true they happen and exist.

By that logic we can say that Candy doesn't exist because it became non canon (explicitly different from the out of canon that was addressed at the beginning. Since it don't meet any of the criteria.

JADE: it cannot be ominous because it cannot truly be anything with tangible significance.

JADE: one could describe it as a phantasmal projection confined within my horizon.

JADE: it was created by a choice that made it possible for that horizon to expand infinitely, to consume infinitely.

JADE: and since that choice could not coexist with canon events, this place manifested here to support its consequences.

JADE: if this world were capable of anything either essential, relevant, or true in some stable combination, then it would perpetuate a corrosive paradox.

JADE: as such, insulation from what is out there, and the inescapable well it rests in, is what protects all it holds inside.

JADE: and since i am the embodiment of the black hole in which it rests,

JADE: i am the one protecting this world.

And candy Rose mention it being not canon and John mentioning it too:

ROSE: No, that isn’t what I meant at all.

ROSE: By all means, apply a narrative to our lives. Up until a certain point, it would have been perfectly accurate to do so.

ROSE: But not anymore.

JOHN: because... it’s not canon, right?

ROSE: But that isn’t me anymore.

ROSE: I am blind against the veil of this world.

ROSE: It’s all ambrosia to me.

ROSE: I don’t care if it’s not true. I care even less if it’s not canon.

(literally not canon the same term as non canonical which was used above)

All beings that scale to the narrative/story lvl character are above these meta rivers since they scale to the Director who controlled the story with the Meta rivers in the first place(Dirk outright fighting The Director). And MSPAReader outright became bigger than the story:

Spoiler: MSPAReader

And secluded and sealed this story, the story happened until he removed it out of causation to make it unhappen but still exist.

TL;DR: Homestuck various states of dubious and non canonicity "exist", and while it's acknowledge them as lower states of Existence that can't interact with the canon one, they did happen(and not). As it is its own story it technically happened, despite being not true.

Not like it matter much since the story happened(not) while not being true it's part of the cosmology and remain there. This is a special in-verse characteristic that makes so non canon/fanon/post canon and what no are inferior in truthness to the canon one so they can't interfere with them.

Canon will be always be above in esscence, even if the non post bluh bluh bluh have a bigger cosmology, basically. But any characters that is above the stories and structures aka any character that scale to the narrative or have their conciusness there aka Dirk, Hussie, Alt.Calliope, The Director, English. scale to someone who can control stories as big as Pesterquest story which contained the meta-rivers.

Homestuck is basically a verse with various cosmology per story and the narrative being above them all.