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Massive dark souls Downgrades.
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Rikimarox2
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ThisReinhardthrowhisspear said:
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A land of Gray crags is not a justification for saying the whole World is gray.─æ, because the lore doesn't expand that wide.Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
The first flame was never said to have created the sun, no matter how you look at the image you have no scans to back up your claim, just a mere pic of a "bleeding" sun that could mean everything. If it's stated then post scans of it.
They fuel the first flame, never the sun, because the sun has never once been mentioend in the same breath as the first flame, and it never said anything about giving power to the sun so it doesn't vanish.
Should have read the above post about the triforce not getting upgraded despite having way more feats, statements and context.
I can say the First flame has the ability to manipulate causality because if it remains lit it Will keep the sun alive, I could say the first flame simply magicaly keeps the sun alive, I could say the first flame is only keeping the light of the sun alive...
Like I said, I'm not taking headcannon seriously anymore.
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Okay. I will try to make a counter argument about the points made by OP.
"Powering the sun is not equal to destroying the sun"
You don't need to destroy the sun to be star level. Kyogre is the best example. He is 5-B, yes, but he didn't destroyed the planet. They have the power to power the first flame which is the "sun" of the DS verse, which makes them to star level.
"Witch of Azalith failed"
There's no guarantee that even if you can destroy things you can make them. Nine the Phantom for example, cannot make another planet (or moon it's getting a revision) but she can destroy them. Another example is Michael (Bastard!!).
"They don't power the sun"
There is no "sun" in Dark Souls. There is only first flame. Sun=First Flame. They power it using their souls. They power the essence of "sun" itself. The "sun" is nothing more than a part of the first flame.
"Lords are slowly drained"
Of course they are. Lord Gwyn for example, lit it for a millennia. Which is enough to be considered a Star level.
"No one in DS verse has shown Planetary feats"
DS isn't one of the more obvious verses that are Planetary and above, like Yu-Gi-Oh is a card game yet they have Planetary Characters. It is also in the lore, where almost every feat we use to this verse came from.
Also fun fact:
"Before I was a Lord of Cinder, I was a student of transposition. The process of extracting and co-alising essence of a soul. A forbidden art, that once lift a foul stain of colon's honor, it is an art that grants what thought unobtainable. The most transposing kiln was lost with coalan (?) but this place is a crossing for all manner of cursed objects."
The quote from that one frail guy from DS3. I'm misheard some words but the message is obvious. The ring, weapons, items and more came from your soul, granting you abilities you never thought before. It is also the cursed bosses like that cursed wood optional boss for example is searching for in order to sustain their power. Why I brought this? To propose that it is possible to make something grandiose using your soul. It is possible to make a thunder with your soul, you can make yourself stronger with souls. It is also possible to power up the sun using your soul as long as it is strong enough to withstand it. It is also possible to say that power of soul directly affects the AP, since many of the Lord's of Cinder use magic, which came from soul.
"Powering the sun is not equal to destroying the sun"
You don't need to destroy the sun to be star level. Kyogre is the best example. He is 5-B, yes, but he didn't destroyed the planet. They have the power to power the first flame which is the "sun" of the DS verse, which makes them to star level.
"Witch of Azalith failed"
There's no guarantee that even if you can destroy things you can make them. Nine the Phantom for example, cannot make another planet (or moon it's getting a revision) but she can destroy them. Another example is Michael (Bastard!!).
"They don't power the sun"
There is no "sun" in Dark Souls. There is only first flame. Sun=First Flame. They power it using their souls. They power the essence of "sun" itself. The "sun" is nothing more than a part of the first flame.
"Lords are slowly drained"
Of course they are. Lord Gwyn for example, lit it for a millennia. Which is enough to be considered a Star level.
"No one in DS verse has shown Planetary feats"
DS isn't one of the more obvious verses that are Planetary and above, like Yu-Gi-Oh is a card game yet they have Planetary Characters. It is also in the lore, where almost every feat we use to this verse came from.
Also fun fact:
"Before I was a Lord of Cinder, I was a student of transposition. The process of extracting and co-alising essence of a soul. A forbidden art, that once lift a foul stain of colon's honor, it is an art that grants what thought unobtainable. The most transposing kiln was lost with coalan (?) but this place is a crossing for all manner of cursed objects."
The quote from that one frail guy from DS3. I'm misheard some words but the message is obvious. The ring, weapons, items and more came from your soul, granting you abilities you never thought before. It is also the cursed bosses like that cursed wood optional boss for example is searching for in order to sustain their power. Why I brought this? To propose that it is possible to make something grandiose using your soul. It is possible to make a thunder with your soul, you can make yourself stronger with souls. It is also possible to power up the sun using your soul as long as it is strong enough to withstand it. It is also possible to say that power of soul directly affects the AP, since many of the Lord's of Cinder use magic, which came from soul.
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I'm going to do that once HE comes out in English (June/July). While there are statements that could already do the jump, I doubt they're enoughTheJ-ManRequiem said:
Twisted_Little_Raven
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In game the chars may not seem as powerful as there are in the lore to make it better. An example is bloodborne, you may think the chars are weak based on gameplay, until you realize what's happening when people use " a call beyond ". About no feats on that level, well only dark souls God tiers scale, the rest below that scale to country level feats, and way below that early game
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Kyogre actually a bad example. The calculation left out the feat was over a period of time (planetary) and while he did make a end all storm the game directly stated and even had the storm only make and cover sootopolis and extend on with the edge being fortree and slateport and archie and Steven even make note that over time man even made a thread except no traction had gained man.
The feat within the calculation only a few hundred kilometer and would become 5-B only after which did not happen.
The feat within the calculation only a few hundred kilometer and would become 5-B only after which did not happen.
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A land of Gray crags is not a justification for saying the whole World is gray.─æ, because the lore doesn't expand that wide.
The first flame was never said to have created the sun, no matter how you look at the image you have no scans to back up your claim, just a mere pic of a "bleeding" sun that could mean everything. If it's stated then post scans of it.
They fuel the first flame, never the sun, because the sun has never once been mentioend in the same breath as the first flame, and it never said anything about giving power to the sun so it doesn't vanish.
Should have read the above post about the triforce not getting upgraded despite having way more feats, statements and context.
I can say the First flame has the ability to manipulate causality because if it remains lit it Will keep the sun alive, I could say the first flame simply magicaly keeps the sun alive, I could say the first flame is only keeping the light of the sun alive...
Like I said, I'm not taking headcannon seriously anymore.
Age of the things travels across the oceans, as the settings in DS2, which is far from Another Londo and the places from DS1. And as the narrator says in DS1, the world was gray back then and eternal dragons ruled the world.
Because everything from souls of cinders to the opening cinematic leads to the conclusion to it.
It will vanish. That is why there is an age of dark in the first place. The age of dark means no more light, meaning no more sun. This scenario literally blew off the sun like a candle. Then the first flame will come back and restart the sun again. That is why first flame=sun. Age of dark=No,Sun. Age of fire=Yes, sun.
Dark Souls and Zelda is two completely different game with completely different way they represent their feats. Dark Souls has one of the most unconventional way of showing their feats which is using purely statements and details instead of using actual work like Zelda and other verse does.
The first flame was never said to have created the sun, no matter how you look at the image you have no scans to back up your claim, just a mere pic of a "bleeding" sun that could mean everything. If it's stated then post scans of it.
They fuel the first flame, never the sun, because the sun has never once been mentioend in the same breath as the first flame, and it never said anything about giving power to the sun so it doesn't vanish.
Should have read the above post about the triforce not getting upgraded despite having way more feats, statements and context.
I can say the First flame has the ability to manipulate causality because if it remains lit it Will keep the sun alive, I could say the first flame simply magicaly keeps the sun alive, I could say the first flame is only keeping the light of the sun alive...
Like I said, I'm not taking headcannon seriously anymore.
Age of the things travels across the oceans, as the settings in DS2, which is far from Another Londo and the places from DS1. And as the narrator says in DS1, the world was gray back then and eternal dragons ruled the world.
Because everything from souls of cinders to the opening cinematic leads to the conclusion to it.
It will vanish. That is why there is an age of dark in the first place. The age of dark means no more light, meaning no more sun. This scenario literally blew off the sun like a candle. Then the first flame will come back and restart the sun again. That is why first flame=sun. Age of dark=No,Sun. Age of fire=Yes, sun.
Dark Souls and Zelda is two completely different game with completely different way they represent their feats. Dark Souls has one of the most unconventional way of showing their feats which is using purely statements and details instead of using actual work like Zelda and other verse does.
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Mega Kyogre and Groudon were going to destroy the 5-B Grand Meteor Delta in the Manga anyway, so they will not be downgraded. The reason why they couldn't do it was that Maxie and Archie were at very poor life energy in order to sustain them after the Mega-Evolution.
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What? Mega duo failed and got knocked out when destroying meteor one and not delta and quaza noted that between mega duo and even himself the meteor would overpower and defeat all three hence why mega quaza had become a thing. http://jb2448.info/index.php?/category/2058 Anyway offtopic man dropping this again. That most definitely not why especially when quaza outright said all three lacked the power .Dark649 said:
And quaza within normal form above >>>>> max power primal duo. And primal groudon had full power and even trained and perfected his precipe blade along with Kyogre and origin pulse man.
The fact would be even at full power he failed and quaza confirmed explicitly making a note of he with the other legend pokemon lacked the power even when making an full power attack within unison and quaza above primalanyway. But alas guess making a new thread would be decent as the old would be a necro.
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Anyway dark souls fine but link and sources would be needed. For justification man. Or a thread for rating with justification.
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I'll directly link the wiki. I don't want to search for the pic for every single description of souls, clothes and weapons I need to explain this.
>Before the age of fire, there was age of ancients, controlled by everlasting dragons.
>Humanoids saw the first flame created from below.
>Great Lord Gwy, Gravelord Nito and the Witch of Azalith overthrown the Dragons with the help of Seath the Scaleless.
>Furtive Pygmy, another first Lord, kept Dark Soul within him, waiting to kick start the age of dark.
Now, there is no evidence suggesting that "sun" existed in age of the ancients. Nothing. Because the first flame didn't just created life and fire but also death and dark by lack of it. An uncompleted world is gray, representing lack of anything.
>Before the age of fire, there was age of ancients, controlled by everlasting dragons.
>Humanoids saw the first flame created from below.
>Great Lord Gwy, Gravelord Nito and the Witch of Azalith overthrown the Dragons with the help of Seath the Scaleless.
>Furtive Pygmy, another first Lord, kept Dark Soul within him, waiting to kick start the age of dark.
Now, there is no evidence suggesting that "sun" existed in age of the ancients. Nothing. Because the first flame didn't just created life and fire but also death and dark by lack of it. An uncompleted world is gray, representing lack of anything.
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"You don't need to destroy the sun to be star level."Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
No you don't, you either create it or destroy it. Simply powering it does not put you on said level. The sun powering is an outlier, because no one else in the verse has feats comparable to those of solar system busting ones.
"There is no "sun" in Dark Souls. There is only first flame. Sun=First Flame. They power it using their souls. They power the essence of "sun" itself. The "sun" is nothing more than a part of the first flame."
Ohh so whats this then? a Moon?
Yeah, now you are saying a sun is actually just a part of the first flame and that the sun doesn't realy exist so that you can wank a poorly contexed headcannon feat.
I can make up a fact and say the first flame is only an object that provides light through magical means or even that lords use their souls to create illusions of light and you can't prove me wrong because there are no scans that say so, as far as theories and headcannon beliefes go they can't be accepted because majority favor it.
You are molding facts to your liking.
Also to your constant saying of AOA being gray and having no concept of death or life I alread told you once.
Even after the flame appears the land is stil gray, because it's the lowest point in Lordran with exception of maybe the abyss.
And you seem to have completely ignored Seath who was mortal already, before the flame was lit.
In conclusion, what you wrote are assumptions and majorly accepted beliefs.
For example many people stil beleieve Naruot is FTL and because of lackluster context some people explain it differently.
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No you don't, you either create it or destroy it. Simply powering it does not put you on said level. The sun powering is an outlier, because no one else in the verse has feats comparable to those of solar system busting ones.
Happened a million different users had done feat within question though man.
Happened a million different users had done feat within question though man.
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Now that I think about it, this is like Accelerator feat. They can affect things majorly and can destroy the things they affected using right circumstances. Lord Boros is also like this. He can bust things when he hit the core. They usually just below the tiers they affected but just barely. 5-A calc above is kinda OK too. Tier 5?
That is a first flame. It is visible even in Dragonair. And there is a kiln in DS2, remember?
Humanoids before can't die. Dragons before is Immortal except Seath the Scaleless, who doesn't fall on these categories, making him mortal. He doesn't have scales after all. And he showed up in a middle of the war, when the first flame is already there.
@J-Man Monster Hunter's Fatalis is a 5-B even though the whole verse is tier 6-C. Zorah Magdaros can bust the continent even if no Elder Dragon can do so. Fatalis just has a one calc on the belt and every single character in the verse disagrees with him. Which is kinda weird because somebody said sub-relavistic skypeia or water 7 one piece is outlier even if there is a calc backing it up.
That is a first flame. It is visible even in Dragonair. And there is a kiln in DS2, remember?
Humanoids before can't die. Dragons before is Immortal except Seath the Scaleless, who doesn't fall on these categories, making him mortal. He doesn't have scales after all. And he showed up in a middle of the war, when the first flame is already there.
@J-Man Monster Hunter's Fatalis is a 5-B even though the whole verse is tier 6-C. Zorah Magdaros can bust the continent even if no Elder Dragon can do so. Fatalis just has a one calc on the belt and every single character in the verse disagrees with him. Which is kinda weird because somebody said sub-relavistic skypeia or water 7 one piece is outlier even if there is a calc backing it up.
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Nah ya fine and ya had a decent example. Just the feat wrong but ya made ya point man thus ya have me agreed.
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Yes.DMUA said:
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You mean Drangleic, wtf is Dragonair?Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
No that's the sun, and saying that it's the first flame is ******** when you have no scans for it.
Humanoids can die, not of age perhaps, though that doesn't explain gwy already being old af. but they can be killed. Pygmy generated humanity, the race of gods came before men, and they most certaninly can die. Gwyn never returned, neither did any of the past lords or gods.
"Showed up in the middle of the war"
You make it sound like Albino Roger was just born when the flame popped up, like he was never a youngling and was unknown to growth, I guess Gwyn was born as an old man because he was first seen when he got the soul.
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Dragonair ovo.
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Actually 7 ton jojo from free.
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Previously you had Dark souls at Town level which perfectly matched their AP with feats the verse has shown, and I completely agreed on that.DMB 1 said:
This star level nonsense is headcannon feat that has nothing to do with AP in the first place and hasn't got any scans to back it up.
Neither is the storm feat, because it's literally denying logic to achieve wank.
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I thought people were talking about the sun feat with the end of fire ending. Basically once the first flame dissappears so does light. This would include the sun, which gives off the most light. There's already a eclipse over the sun after you kill the lords of cinder.
Dark Souls 3 - The End of Fire ENDING (Second Ending)
Dark Souls 3 - The End of Fire ENDING (Second Ending)
Twisted_Little_Raven
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Blah blah blah you do know it's not always about destroying something right? Check the tiering system. I'm not on OBD for a reason.
Twisted_Little_Raven
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Omfg can't type today
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Previously you had Dark souls at Town level which perfectly matched their AP with feats the verse has shown, and I completely agreed on that.
This star level nonsense is headcannon feat that has nothing to do with AP in the first place and hasn't got any scans to back it up.
Neither is the storm feat, because it's literally denying logic to achieve wank.
Phoenix Wright is in tier 10-A even if he is just a lawyer, Fatalis is a planet level even if the best feat he did is destroyed a kingdom, Menthuthuyoupi is in a tier 8 or 7 even if he just did is destroyed a part of a castle, Whitebeard is a country level even if the best feat is cracking an island, Kyubey trapped Madoka Kaname even if he is 10-C.
Power of one's soul directly affects the AP, via statement I posted, which literally say that every weapons, rings and magic's power source is a soul. How can you produce lightning from your hand? Soul. What does the power came from if you drunk a Pygmy's blood? Soul. What do you give to my husbando Andre when you need to fix a sword? Soul. You fuel flame with your body and soul, and soul or power of it directly affects the AP.
Well guess what, this is fiction, sometimes you need to throw the logic out of the window. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) being 4-B doesn't make sense at first because if he is, he just destroy the planet immediately, 9-B human Jotaro Kujo doesn't make sense because he is a kid. Unless you're verse has been Swiss cheese by a PIS bullet (I'm looking at you, Fairy Tail!), and the feats they use is non-canon (I'm looking at you, BlazBlue! Probably), or have contradictory feats (I'm looking at you, DC Comics!), no matter how insane the feats are, if there is an evidence then it is accepted.
This star level nonsense is headcannon feat that has nothing to do with AP in the first place and hasn't got any scans to back it up.
Neither is the storm feat, because it's literally denying logic to achieve wank.
Phoenix Wright is in tier 10-A even if he is just a lawyer, Fatalis is a planet level even if the best feat he did is destroyed a kingdom, Menthuthuyoupi is in a tier 8 or 7 even if he just did is destroyed a part of a castle, Whitebeard is a country level even if the best feat is cracking an island, Kyubey trapped Madoka Kaname even if he is 10-C.
Power of one's soul directly affects the AP, via statement I posted, which literally say that every weapons, rings and magic's power source is a soul. How can you produce lightning from your hand? Soul. What does the power came from if you drunk a Pygmy's blood? Soul. What do you give to my husbando Andre when you need to fix a sword? Soul. You fuel flame with your body and soul, and soul or power of it directly affects the AP.
Well guess what, this is fiction, sometimes you need to throw the logic out of the window. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) being 4-B doesn't make sense at first because if he is, he just destroy the planet immediately, 9-B human Jotaro Kujo doesn't make sense because he is a kid. Unless you're verse has been Swiss cheese by a PIS bullet (I'm looking at you, Fairy Tail!), and the feats they use is non-canon (I'm looking at you, BlazBlue! Probably), or have contradictory feats (I'm looking at you, DC Comics!), no matter how insane the feats are, if there is an evidence then it is accepted.
Twisted_Little_Raven
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Soooo cuteeeee
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Soooo cuteeeee
He's cute. The evolution is disappointing though.
He's cute. The evolution is disappointing though.
Twisted_Little_Raven
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Nothing beats milotic
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Nothing beats the beauty of Jinx.
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Previously you had Dark souls at Town level which perfectly matched their AP with feats the verse has shown, and I completely agreed on that.
This star level nonsense is headcannon feat that has nothing to do with AP in the first place and hasn't got any scans to back it up.
Neither is the storm feat, because it's literally denying logic to achieve wank.
Phoenix Wright is in tier 10-A even if he is just a lawyer, Fatalis is a planet level even if the best feat he did is destroyed a kingdom, Menthuthuyoupi is in a tier 8 or 7 even if he just did is destroyed a part of a castle, Whitebeard is a country level even if the best feat is cracking an island, Kyubey trapped Madoka Kaname even if he is 10-C.
Power of one's soul directly affects the AP, via statement I posted, which literally say that every weapons, rings and magic's power source is a soul. How can you produce lightning from your hand? Soul. What does the power came from if you drunk a Pygmy's blood? Soul. What do you give to my husbando Andre when you need to fix a sword? Soul. You fuel flame with your body and soul, and soul or power of it directly affects the AP.
Well guess what, this is fiction, sometimes you need to throw the logic out of the window. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) being 4-B doesn't make sense at first because if he is, he just destroy the planet immediately, 9-B human Jotaro Kujo doesn't make sense because he is a kid. Unless you're verse has been Swiss cheese by a PIS bullet (I'm looking at you, Fairy Tail!), and the feats they use is non-canon (I'm looking at you, BlazBlue! Probably), or have contradictory feats (I'm looking at you, DC Comics!), no matter how insane the feats are, if there is an evidence then it is accepted.
"Power of one's soul directly affects the AP, via statement I posted, which literally say that every weapons, rings and magic's power source is a soul. How can you produce lightning from your hand? Soul. What does the power came from if you drunk a Pygmy's blood? Soul. What do you give to my husbando Andre when you need to fix a sword? Soul. You fuel flame with your body and soul, and soul or power of it directly affects the AP."
Souls are currency and material, they are used instead of coins and to upgrade weapons. I will say they amp you by giving them to someone who knows how to convert them into something that makes you improved, but definitely not entirely in Attack power.
and again, there is no proof that the power to fuel the first flame is the power required to sustain the sun, anything beyond that is a belief of a fandom or community, for example, I could say the everlasting dragons are even weaker because Stormdrake could just be Transformed Ornstein, which is something some people believe since his armor was found close to the fog gate.
There are lords of Cinder who are weaker than the witch at her prime and still linked the fire, a power of a lord soul should surpass most of them but failed to create a new first flame.
its unconfirmed headcannon and an outlier on top of that. The lords had to team up to kill all the dragons, and their power according to the profiles drastically differ.
This star level nonsense is headcannon feat that has nothing to do with AP in the first place and hasn't got any scans to back it up.
Neither is the storm feat, because it's literally denying logic to achieve wank.
Phoenix Wright is in tier 10-A even if he is just a lawyer, Fatalis is a planet level even if the best feat he did is destroyed a kingdom, Menthuthuyoupi is in a tier 8 or 7 even if he just did is destroyed a part of a castle, Whitebeard is a country level even if the best feat is cracking an island, Kyubey trapped Madoka Kaname even if he is 10-C.
Power of one's soul directly affects the AP, via statement I posted, which literally say that every weapons, rings and magic's power source is a soul. How can you produce lightning from your hand? Soul. What does the power came from if you drunk a Pygmy's blood? Soul. What do you give to my husbando Andre when you need to fix a sword? Soul. You fuel flame with your body and soul, and soul or power of it directly affects the AP.
Well guess what, this is fiction, sometimes you need to throw the logic out of the window. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy) being 4-B doesn't make sense at first because if he is, he just destroy the planet immediately, 9-B human Jotaro Kujo doesn't make sense because he is a kid. Unless you're verse has been Swiss cheese by a PIS bullet (I'm looking at you, Fairy Tail!), and the feats they use is non-canon (I'm looking at you, BlazBlue! Probably), or have contradictory feats (I'm looking at you, DC Comics!), no matter how insane the feats are, if there is an evidence then it is accepted.
"Power of one's soul directly affects the AP, via statement I posted, which literally say that every weapons, rings and magic's power source is a soul. How can you produce lightning from your hand? Soul. What does the power came from if you drunk a Pygmy's blood? Soul. What do you give to my husbando Andre when you need to fix a sword? Soul. You fuel flame with your body and soul, and soul or power of it directly affects the AP."
Souls are currency and material, they are used instead of coins and to upgrade weapons. I will say they amp you by giving them to someone who knows how to convert them into something that makes you improved, but definitely not entirely in Attack power.
and again, there is no proof that the power to fuel the first flame is the power required to sustain the sun, anything beyond that is a belief of a fandom or community, for example, I could say the everlasting dragons are even weaker because Stormdrake could just be Transformed Ornstein, which is something some people believe since his armor was found close to the fog gate.
There are lords of Cinder who are weaker than the witch at her prime and still linked the fire, a power of a lord soul should surpass most of them but failed to create a new first flame.
its unconfirmed headcannon and an outlier on top of that. The lords had to team up to kill all the dragons, and their power according to the profiles drastically differ.
Twisted_Little_Raven
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Wow this shit is still going
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Also to jump back on the Storm feat, it's still wank.
Mr Schroeder pointed out that moving clouds of that size requires lots of strenght.
So I applied this logic but wait.
A power that could not even destroy a country fails to destroy or even phase Archdragon peak even slightly. It cant be assumed it would destroy a country, especially not if the storm was dragged right into the CENTER of the peak.
That is just bending logic to keep the bone of wank alive.
Thats like saying I have town level AP because I can blow fire across a town sized forrest, but this fire does not even burn anything at all.
Mr Schroeder pointed out that moving clouds of that size requires lots of strenght.
So I applied this logic but wait.
A power that could not even destroy a country fails to destroy or even phase Archdragon peak even slightly. It cant be assumed it would destroy a country, especially not if the storm was dragged right into the CENTER of the peak.
That is just bending logic to keep the bone of wank alive.
Thats like saying I have town level AP because I can blow fire across a town sized forrest, but this fire does not even burn anything at all.
Twisted_Little_Raven
She/Her- 3,566
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..... ap is based on energy output. look at your message wall again. You will see why the storm feat, is where it's at. You keep looking at it like " didn't destroy a country " the ap someone needs to do such a thing just so happens to be in the 6-B tier. Stop looking at it as destruction, otherwise you will never be able to get it. If you like dc so much, they use it on obd wiki.
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- 2,806
I guess Dragon Ball Z peaks out at Planet level, only getting anywhere higher in Super
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