A Massive Dark Souls CRT

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

I Lied​

But this does affect 3 or 4 characters that stand at the top of the verse (And possibly some others as I cant say I know the verse to well

Soul of Cinder​

The Soul of Cinders boss souls states "Since Lord Gwyn, the first Lord of Cinder, many exalted lords have linked the First Flame, and it is their very souls that have manifested themselves as defender of the flame"
This means by extension that he is every lord combined

As such he at least should be 7-8x baseline star level as that how many KNOWN lords have linked the first flame

As such his new rating would be

760.516 * 7 = 5323.612 Quettatons

or

760.516 * 8 = 6084.128 Quettatons if we count Solaire linking the fire in his own world as canon

Either one would make Soul of Cinders new rating High 4-C

Gwyn​

His current High 4-C rating comes from the assumption that he split his soul 5 times and that it was exactly 1/5th of his power each time

This shouldn't be the case as were never told how much of his soul was given to them, it could be 1/100th for all we know

As such we should change his rating to "At least Star level"

Gael​

Should scale to the High 4-C rating since he can fight post-game Ashen One as well as heavily implied to have the near complete dark soul within him which would contain the souls of countless NPC's that were star level

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

****

Move this thread pls

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hmmm I think Soul of Cinder wins FRA

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Bumping now that this is in the right thread

 

[Tyranno223]

Gwyn's soul description says "Lord Gywn bequeathed most of his power to the Gods, and burned as a cinder for the First Flame" so it can't have been an insubstantial amount. Not sure about the 5x assumption though

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Gwyn's soul description says "Lord Gywn bequeathed most of his power to the Gods, and burned as a cinder for the First Flame" so it can't have been an insubstantial amount. Not sure about the 5x assumption though

Yeah, I know its greatly diminished but that's not a solid number

It's not enough to upscale either so we just have to go with "At least"

 

[Sir_Ovens]

His current High 4-C rating comes from the assumption that he split his soul 5 times and that it was exactly 1/5th of his power each time

This shouldn't be the case as were never told how much of his soul was given to them, it could be 1/100th for all we know

The issue with this is that it would be even more absurd because Seth with his soul is Nito and Bed of Chaos level. Which means whatever fraction of soul that was given has to be 4-C. No matter how much we lowball, it would still reach High 4-C via multiplier.

I never knew why he was stuck at Low 6-B since we operate on the assumption in these games that bosses scale to whatever level the protagonist is at that point in the game

As such he also gets the High 4-C treatment

Because Midir is a dragon and there's no lore reason why he would be High 4-C.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Soul of Cinder: Meh on Solaire (his timeline has its own Soul of Cinder presumably, yes?), otherwise fine, to be entirely honest I thought we were doing this already.

Gwyn: This tracks for me in concept, but I do think Ovens is right in that it at least brought them up to Lord Soul bearers (probably, I dunno if I agree with Seathe being 1:1 with the other guys).

Gael: Again, I thought this was already the case. Yes.

Darkeater Midir: ...and now you fly in the face of what I know. To my knowledge we've never scaled them as such without better reasons to do so. The games are too non-linear to justify this. Shit, technically I can fight Midir before ever fighting a Lord of Cinder in DS3. This justification doesn't work.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I don't know about Soul of cinder? Is it stated that the flame has the power of everyone linking it?

Neutral on Gwyn.

Agree with Midir and Gael.

 

[DaReaperMan]

SoC; ehhh, fine, I guess. I'm not a fan of scaling like that though.

Gwyn: Ovens took the words right out of my mouth

Gael: whereever SoC scales he scales so... fine.

Midir: if you're enough of a gigachad he can be one of the first bosses you beat in DS3, you could pretty easily justify Downgrading him to sodding 8-B if you tried hard enough, I think his current scaling is generous enough.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

The issue with this is that it would be even more absurd because Seth with his soul is Nito and Bed of Chaos level. Which means whatever fraction of soul that was given has to be 4-C. No matter how much we lowball, it would still reach High 4-C via multiplier.

We have no idea how powerful they were beforehand

Even normal humans in Darks Souls are capable of reaching Star level on their own so assuming Gwyn's souls is responsible for quite literally ALL of their power is a baseless assumption

Also we don't even accept Seath as fully 4-C since he's an everlasting dragon and like you said below has no lore reason to scale that high

Four Kings also aren't Lord of Cinder level either so the multiplier doesn't work



The only way it does work is if we accept scaling based on what phase of the game the protagonist is and if we decide to do that a **** ton of characters become 4-C

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Because Midir is a dragon and there's no lore reason why he would be High 4-C.

Bro was munching on and absorbing the power of the Abyss below The Ringed City for millennia, leeching off the largest chunk of the Dark Soul for who tf knows how long. Keep in mind that this chunk of the Dark Soul was so powerful that the gods went to great lengths to keep it sealed away as tightly possible, implying it was a significant enough portion to be relative to Gwyn's Light Soul. Even if Midir doesn't hit High 4-C, keeping him at just 6-B is essentially ignoring his entire character history

 

[Tyranno223]

We have no idea how powerful they were beforehand

Even normal humans in Darks Souls are capable of reaching Star level on their own so assuming Gwyn's souls is responsible for quite literally ALL of their power is a baseless assumption

The specific souls emphasise their power comes from being fragments of Gwyn's soul

"Soul of one of the Four Kings, who fell to the Dark. A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul. Although this is not a full Lord Soul, it can still satiate the Lordvessel."

"Soul of the albino dragon, Seath the Scaleless. A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.Seath allied with Lord Gwyn and turned upon the dragons; for this he was awarded Dukedom embraced by the royalty, and given a fragment of a great soul. Although just a piece, it will still satiate the Lordvessel."


Both souls emphasize Gwyn's soul fragments as the reason why they can satiate the Lordvessels.

Also we don't even accept Seath as fully 4-C since he's an everlasting dragon and like you said below has no lore reason to scale that high

This could do with a revision itself. He could do with two keys.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bro was munching on and absorbing the power of the Abyss below The Ringed City for millennia, leeching off the largest chunk of the Dark Soul for who tf knows how long. Keep in mind that this chunk of the Dark Soul was so powerful that the gods went to great lengths to keep it sealed away as tightly possible, implying it was a significant enough portion to be relative to Gwyn's Light Soul. Even if Midir doesn't hit High 4-C, keeping him at just 6-B is essentially ignoring his entire character history

I disagree, though I think your beliefs are basically sensible I think they're a bit generous.

Even if what Midir is tackling is the greatest essence of the Dark Soul as of DS3, this isn't quantifiable because we have little to compare it to. We don't have any reason to assume that the Dark Soul itself is 4-C at this point (remember that the idea behind it being split across humanity was that it was going to grow in power), nor do we have any meaningful idea of how much of that Midir is tapping into, nor do we know whether Midir being exposed to it for so long is actually increasing his power at all. Iirc, Midir is containing it, not actively harnessing it.

The Gods sealing it away makes a lot of sense even if it wasn't powerful enough to harm them at that time- again, since the Dark Soul was a snowball effect, it's essentially a ticking time bomb.

So I wouldn't call any of that a totally sound argument to scale Midir to the Lord Souls.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

The specific souls emphasise their power comes from being fragments of Gwyn's soul

"Soul of one of the Four Kings, who fell to the Dark. A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul. Although this is not a full Lord Soul, it can still satiate the Lordvessel."

"Soul of the albino dragon, Seath the Scaleless. A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.Seath allied with Lord Gwyn and turned upon the dragons; for this he was awarded Dukedom embraced by the royalty, and given a fragment of a great soul. Although just a piece, it will still satiate the Lordvessel."


Both souls emphasize Gwyn's soul fragments as the reason why they can satiate the Lordvessels.

I that case the current justification should be reworded

I disagree, though I think your beliefs are basically sensible I think they're a bit generous.

Even if what Midir is tackling is the greatest essence of the Dark Soul as of DS3, this isn't quantifiable because we have little to compare it to. We don't have any reason to assume that the Dark Soul itself is 4-C at this point (remember that the idea behind it being split across humanity was that it was going to grow in power), nor do we have any meaningful idea of how much of that Midir is tapping into, nor do we know whether Midir being exposed to it for so long is actually increasing his power at all. Iirc, Midir is containing it, not actively harnessing it.

The Gods sealing it away makes a lot of sense even if it wasn't powerful enough to harm them at that time- again, since the Dark Soul was a snowball effect, it's essentially a ticking time bomb.

So I wouldn't call any of that a totally sound argument to scale Midir to the Lord Souls.

I guess we should downgrade Gael to 4-C as well since he has no solid scaling to High 4-C

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I that case the current justification should be reworded

I guess we should downgrade Gael to 4-C as well since he has no solid scaling to High 4-C

...?

Gael had the entirety of the Dark Soul (minus your bit) at the end of time. The Dark Soul will overcome the Gods. Gael is fine lol.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

...?

Gael had the entirety of the Dark Soul (minus your bit) at the end of time. The Dark Soul will overcome the Gods. Gael is fine lol.

All it says is "Blood of the dark soul that seeped from the hole within Slave Knight Gael." not that is was the complete Dark Soul

Nowhere is it stated that he has the near entirety of it

I believe that is just a fan theory

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All it says is "Blood of the dark soul that seeped from the hole within Slave Knight Gael." not that is was the complete Dark Soul

Nowhere is it stated that he has the near entirety of it

I believe that is just a fan theory

Respectfully, most of the intel we have on Dark Souls is to some extent speculation. You calling it a "fan theory" does it a bit of injustice, it is strongly implied.

Painter needed the Dark Soul to create an everlasting Painting, once we kill Gael and give it to her, it is sufficient to do that.

Gael's rating is fine. Midir has no such justification.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Respectfully, most of the intel we have on Dark Souls is to some extent speculation. You calling it a "fan theory" does it a bit of injustice, it is strongly implied.

Painter needed the Dark Soul to create an everlasting Painting, once we kill Gael and give it to her, it is sufficient to do that.

Gael's rating is fine. Midir has no such justification.

If were going only by lore then Gael doesn't cut it

We cant pick and choose who gets a speculative scaling based on nothing concrete

This is why I'm heavily in favor of just scaling bosses based on when their supposed to be encountered instead of only by lore (Ynow, like we do for 90% of other games)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If were going only by lore then Gael doesn't cut it

We cant pick and choose who gets a speculative scaling based on nothing concrete

This is why I'm heavily in favor of just scaling bosses based on when their supposed to be encountered instead of only by lore (Ynow, like we do for 90% of other games)

You can feel that way, but I strongly disagree lol.

We're not, what we are doing is judging the merit of the implications. Midir leaves tons to be desired, Gael's is as solid as Souls tends to get.

Okay, then Midir can be Tier 6, since again, I can fight him before any Lords of Cinder or anyone comparable

 

[Sir_Ovens]

If were going only by lore then Gael doesn't cut it

We cant pick and choose who gets a speculative scaling based on nothing concrete

This is why I'm heavily in favor of just scaling bosses based on when their supposed to be encountered instead of only by lore (Ynow, like we do for 90% of other games)

Let's go down the line and see what implicates Gael having the almost complete Dark Soul.

- The painter specifically asks for the Dark Soul as pigment for her new painting

- Gael goes on this journey to the Ringed City, which Gwyn created specifically to hold the most significant congregation of Humans (i.e. Dark Soul holders), to find this pigment

- We see the entire place has been consumed by the Abyss as Gwyn had predicted, and we've literally seen this happen before with New Londo

- Ashen One follows Gael to as he's directed by him to do so and touches the forbidden egg

- Something or another happens (speculation on whether or not it was an illusion or time travel, but that's beside the point) and we end up at what is CLEARLY the end of time

- There is literally nothing here but you, Gael, the salty bitch, that one Pygmy who will eventually die, and the chaddest Ringed Knight

- Gael is now beefed up and his sword is damaged beyond what it once was from overuse

- Ashen One kills him and give the dark pigment to the painter to use

Now the most important part about the above is that Gael's transformation proves a passage of time has occurred. His iconic sword was not in the state that it was until you met him at the end of time. And if his treatment of the Pygmies is of any indication (cannibalism), he's been doing this for a long time. Hell, he doesn't even hesitate to TELL you what he wants and you'd have to be purposefully ignoring context if you think he wasn't going to eat you too to take your Dark Soul. That's right, the DARK SOUL. He LITERALLY tells you he wants YOUR Dark Soul.

This isn't even a matter of hurr durr lore lmao. The story being presented to us is blatant. Gael has spent god knows how long cannibalizing people to get the Dark Soul. Not any Dark Soul, The Dark Soul.

Like read the item description of the pigment you give the painter: When Gael came upon the pygmy lords, he discovered that their blood had long ago dried, and so consumed the dark soul.

So if we combine the large passage of time, the barren wasteland with only a handful of people, the fact that Gael is coked up on significant portions of the Dark Soul, and the fact that over time the Dark Soul grows in power that scared prime Gwyn, an intelligent conclusion could be made that he's at least end-game Ashen One level (who should be >>> Prime Gwyn).

 

[hippoishungry]

Mhm, I pretty much agree with Bambu and Ovens here

I mean in dark souls 1 and 2 the boss placements are relatively equal to their placement in the lore, with fodder enemies that have basically no lore being present in the early game, bosses that scale to the everlasting dragons (Like Orenstein) being present in the mid game and bosses that scale to lords of cinder existing in the late game

However in dark souls 3 you have bosses like the abyss watchers being relatively early game, despite it being established that lords of cinder are chosen by strength more than anything else. In that sense dark souls 3 is pretty much the only game in the series where the boss order actively contradicts the lore, so I am in favor of not using the boss placements to scale them

Agree on scaling the Soul of Cinder and Gael to High 4-C

Kinda neutral on the Gwyn stuff. On one hand even after giving away most of his power he is still strong enough to be a lord of cinder, so at absolute minimum he would be >2x baseline 4-C. On the other hand the Four kings and Seath canonically have much weaker souls than Nito and the Bed of Chaos, so it might just be that those guys are somewhat weaker than 4-C

 

[Tyranno223]

Kinda neutral on the Gwyn stuff. On one hand even after giving away most of his power he is still strong enough to be a lord of cinder, so at absolute minimum he would be >2x baseline 4-C. On the other hand the Four kings and Seath canonically have much weaker souls than Nito and the Bed of Chaos, so it might just be that those guys are somewhat weaker than 4-C

They're still enough to satiate the Lordvessel, so they should at least be comparable to Nito and the Bed of Chaos.

 

[hippoishungry]

They're still enough to satiate the Lordvessel, so they should at least be comparable to Nito and the Bed of Chaos.

I mean yeah, but satiating the lord vessel isn't necessarily a 4-C feat

In both of their soul descriptions, it is mentioned that they have more than enough power to fill the lord vessel, with the Bed of Chaos's soul stating:

" Its power formed a bed of life which would become the source of all demons, and is more than enough to satiate the Lordvessel."

and Nito's souls stating:

"The power of his soul is so great that it satiates the Lordvessel, despite the fact that much of its energy has already been offered to death."

Essentially, Peak Nito = 4-C > Weakened Nito = lordvessel and Bed of Chaos = 4-C > lordvessel

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean yeah, but satiating the lord vessel isn't necessarily a 4-C feat

In both of their soul descriptions, it is mentioned that they have more than enough power to fill the lord vessel, with the Bed of Chaos's soul stating:

" Its power formed a bed of life which would become the source of all demons, and is more than enough to satiate the Lordvessel."

and Nito's souls stating:

"The power of his soul is so great that it satiates the Lordvessel, despite the fact that much of its energy has already been offered to death."

Essentially, Peak Nito = 4-C > Weakened Nito = lordvessel and Bed of Chaos = 4-C > lordvessel

"Soul of the Bed of Chaos and the mother of all demons. This Lord Soul was found at the dawn of the Age of Fire.
The Witch of Izalith attempted to duplicate the First Flame from a soul, but instead created a distorted being of chaos and fire. Its power formed a bed of life which would become the source for all demons, and is more than enough to satiate the Lordvessel"

Nito was weakened, but the soul of the Bed of Chaos/Witch of Izalith was the same as ever. They are all still comparable.

 

[hippoishungry]

"Soul of the Bed of Chaos and the mother of all demons. This Lord Soul was found at the dawn of the Age of Fire.
The Witch of Izalith attempted to duplicate the First Flame from a soul, but instead created a distorted being of chaos and fire. Its power formed a bed of life which would become the source for all demons, and is more than enough to satiate the Lordvessel"

Nito was weakened, but the soul of the Bed of Chaos/Witch of Izalith was the same as ever. They are all still comparable.

Yeah, but the Bed of Chaos's souls is explicitly MORE than enough to satiate the lord vessel, meaning there is a clear power difference between the four kings and the bed of chaos

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah, but the Bed of Chaos's souls is explicitly MORE than enough to satiate the lord vessel, meaning there is a clear power difference between the four kings and the bed of chaos

Yes, but despite the description, it cannot satiate the Lordvessel in its entirety on its own. All four are required to fully satiate it, meaning they must all be somewhat comparable.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

All four souls are required to satiate the vessel meaning on their own their not star level

And in the four Kings case 4 of their souls combined are needed to fill it

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Tyranno223]

Well we currently have Nito as "likely 4-C" for probably being comparable to Gwyn, as both possess potent Lord Souls. If that's the case, the Bed of Chaos is likely 4-C, with the other three being somewhat comparable for being needed to satiate the Lordvessel fully.

Gwyn, in the "likely" scenario, would be the equal of one likely 4-C and 3 comparable, but notably weaker souls. On that note, why is he a solid High 4-C in the first place? If his rating is contingent on likely ones, then it should have been something like "4-C, likely High 4-C"

Though he should Low 2-C

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Well we currently have Nito as "likely 4-C" for probably being comparable to Gwyn, as both possess potent Lord Souls. If that's the case, the Bed of Chaos is likely 4-C, with the other three being somewhat comparable for being needed to satiate the Lordvessel fully.

They should all be 1/4th of 4-C for now

Gwyn, in the "likely" scenario, would be the equal of one likely 4-C and 3 comparable, but notably weaker souls. On that note, why is he a solid High 4-C in the first place? If his rating is contingent on likely ones, then it should have been something like "4-C, likely High 4-C"

That what I'm saying and it only works if you assume he donated a majority of his soul to both the kings and Seath who we don't know how powerful they were before
We know that both Seath and the Four Kings souls by themselves aren't enough to satiate the Lord Vessel so why assume he's giving away Lord Vessel tier strength to each on of these guys?

4-C is where he should be

Though he should Low 2-C

That's coming eventually

Let's go down the line and see what implicates Gael having the almost complete Dark Soul.

Fair enough I concede on that

But

Why do we assume that equates to High 4-C levels of power when other Lord Souls are 4-C

There's the Gwyn stating he feared it but that's vague and as mentioned above he has no real reason to be High 4-C

 

[Tyranno223]

They should all be 1/4th of 4-C for now

That what I'm saying and it only works if you assume he donated a majority of his soul to both the kings and Seath who we don't know how powerful they were before
We know that both Seath and the Four Kings souls by themselves aren't enough to satiate the Lord Vessel so why assume he's giving away Lord Vessel tier strength to each on of these guys?

4-C is where he should be

Well that's the rub, Nito should be somewhat comparable to Gwyn, as should the Witch of Izalith, so I do agree with a "likely" or "possibly" 4-C rating. They each received a Lord Soul (with all three souls surviving the cycles through to Dark Souls 2)

So the Bed of Chaos is a 4-C (likely or otherwise) and the other 3 should be somewhat (emphasise on that) comparable. It should be one 4-C + 3 lesser but somewhat comparable souls.

Gwyn's successor would need to have amassed all the above souls to be worthy to succeed him, and even his remaining power as the Lord of Cinder is a threat to an endgame protagonist.

He should be "At least 4-C" in his prime, but whether he should be "possibly" or "likely" High 4-C can be up for debate.

That's coming eventually

Noice

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Well that's the rub, Nito should be somewhat comparable to Gwyn, as should the Witch of Izalith, so I do agree with a "likely" or "possibly" 4-C rating. They each received a Lord Soul (with all three souls surviving the cycles through to Dark Souls 2)

Thing is Gwyn was noted to be the strongest of the Gods even earning the title "The Great Lord" while Izalith and Nito were just referred to as lords and he was also known as the king of the gods so it's kind off a Zeus situation going on

He should be "At least 4-C" in his prime, but whether he should be "possibly" or "likely" High 4-C can be up for debate.

I would agree with "Possibly 4-C" for all them

 

[Tyranno223]

Thing is Gwyn was noted to be the strongest of the Gods even earning the title "The Great Lord" while Izalith and Nito were just referred to as lords and he was also known as the king of the gods so it's kind off a Zeus situation going on

Agreed, but they shouldn't be too far apart, given they all have Lord Souls. Kinda like Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus. For instance all three souls survived many cycles of Flame until Dark Souls 2, were all three are relatively comparable.

I would agree with "Possibly 4-C" for all them

Agreed, although I guess the matter becomes whether Gwyn gains a "possibly High 4-C" as well if we go that way.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Agreed, although I guess the matter becomes whether Gwyn gains a "possibly High 4-C" as well if we go that way.

Well I just laid out my reasoning why he shouldn't above so I'm against High 4-C of any kind for Gwyn

 

[hippoishungry]

They should all be 1/4th of 4-C for now

Personally i think it should go a bit more like this:

I was digging through some old threads and found out the reason we currently scale the lord soul holders to 4-C is because the Demon Prince (Dark Souls 3 dlc) fought Lorian (Who is similar in strength to Lothric, a Lord of Cinder). While the Demon Prince was slain by Lorian (which probably means that its somewhat weaker), it still managed to scorch his sword.

Now the Bed of Chaos scales above the Demon Prince as it was the creator of the chaos flame, whereas the Demon Prince was basically clinging onto the last scraps of chaos, so in terms of tiering:

4-C = Lothric = Lorian > Demon Prince < Bed of Chaos

Given that the other lord souls can satiate the lordvessel but still have less power, they should probably downscale to Low 4-C+

In terms of tiering:
4-C = Bed of Chaos > Four kings = Seath = weakened Nito = Low 4-C+

This would mean that prime Gwyn would be 4-C+:
Low 4-C+*5 (Seath + Four Kings) + baseline 4-C (Weakened Gwyn still strong enough to be a lord of cinder) = 4-C+

 

[Tyranno223]

Personally i think it should go a bit more like this:

I was digging through some old threads and found out the reason we currently scale the lord soul holders to 4-C is because the Demon Prince (Dark Souls 3 dlc) fought Lorian (Who is similar in strength to Lothric, a Lord of Cinder). While the Demon Prince was slain by Lorian (which probably means that its somewhat weaker), it still managed to scorch his sword.

Now the Bed of Chaos scales above the Demon Prince as it was the creator of the chaos flame, whereas the Demon Prince was basically clinging onto the last scraps of chaos, so in terms of tiering:

4-C = Lothric = Lorian > Demon Prince < Bed of Chaos

Given that the other lord souls can satiate the lordvessel but still have less power, they should probably downscale to Low 4-C+

In terms of tiering:
4-C = Bed of Chaos > Four kings = Seath = weakened Nito = Low 4-C+

This would mean that prime Gwyn would be 4-C+:
Low 4-C+*5 (Seath + Four Kings) + baseline 4-C (Weakened Gwyn still strong enough to be a lord of cinder) = 4-C+

Sounds good in my book at least. Although Bed of Chaos and weakened Nito could also be included. All four are needed to be considered as being worthy as Gwyn's successor

 

[hippoishungry]

Personally i think it should go a bit more like this:

I was digging through some old threads and found out the reason we currently scale the lord soul holders to 4-C is because the Demon Prince (Dark Souls 3 dlc) fought Lorian (Who is similar in strength to Lothric, a Lord of Cinder). While the Demon Prince was slain by Lorian (which probably means that its somewhat weaker), it still managed to scorch his sword.

Now the Bed of Chaos scales above the Demon Prince as it was the creator of the chaos flame, whereas the Demon Prince was basically clinging onto the last scraps of chaos, so in terms of tiering:

4-C = Lothric = Lorian > Demon Prince < Bed of Chaos

Given that the other lord souls can satiate the lordvessel but still have less power, they should probably downscale to Low 4-C+

In terms of tiering:
4-C = Bed of Chaos > Four kings = Seath = weakened Nito = Low 4-C+

This would mean that prime Gwyn would be 4-C+:
Low 4-C+*5 (Seath + Four Kings) + baseline 4-C (Weakened Gwyn still strong enough to be a lord of cinder) = 4-C+

Bump

If we can get some staff opinion on this i think the revision can go through, given that everything else has already been accepted or rejected

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Personally i think it should go a bit more like this:

I was digging through some old threads and found out the reason we currently scale the lord soul holders to 4-C is because the Demon Prince (Dark Souls 3 dlc) fought Lorian (Who is similar in strength to Lothric, a Lord of Cinder). While the Demon Prince was slain by Lorian (which probably means that its somewhat weaker), it still managed to scorch his sword.

Now the Bed of Chaos scales above the Demon Prince as it was the creator of the chaos flame, whereas the Demon Prince was basically clinging onto the last scraps of chaos, so in terms of tiering:

4-C = Lothric = Lorian > Demon Prince < Bed of Chaos

Given that the other lord souls can satiate the lordvessel but still have less power, they should probably downscale to Low 4-C+

In terms of tiering:
4-C = Bed of Chaos > Four kings = Seath = weakened Nito = Low 4-C+

This would mean that prime Gwyn would be 4-C+:
Low 4-C+*5 (Seath + Four Kings) + baseline 4-C (Weakened Gwyn still strong enough to be a lord of cinder) = 4-C+

If we're treating Bed of Chaos as 4-C then I see no reason we shouldn't treat Nito, Seath and the Four Kings as 4-C as well considering their all used to satiate the Lordvessel and none are noted to be incredibly superior to the others

And for Four kings we can just divide 4-C by 4 for their value

As for Nito he can be 2.2x 4-C at full power since it does specify most of his power was gone which "Most" meaning in most cases more than half AKA 60%

Gwyn's rating would change to be 5x star level


Also would anyone well versed in all three games be able to give us a decent estimate as to the number of lords of cinder that have linked the flame before the events of DS3?

I know of the 7-8 mentioned in the OP but I'm sure in lore there are many others mentioned

 

[Tyranno223]

I believe Nito and the Bed of Chaos should also be considered for Gwyn's soul regardless.

Frampt only considers the Chosen Undead worthy to be a successor to Gwyn upon getting their souls as well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The issue is that we don't know how many Lords of Cinder there have been by DS3. We know that there is at least one mausoleum full of fire keepers who presumably tended to a Lord of Cinder (perhaps each, perhaps multiple maidens per Lord, as this isn't strictly out of the question). Implications suggest that it's been many, many ages since DS1, with the names of that age fading from memory (Artorias is referred to as totally forgotten despite being one of the foremost figures of Gwyn's regime). So nobody can offer you a concrete answer on that front, I'm afraid.