A Massive Dark Souls CRT

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

The issue is that we don't know how many Lords of Cinder there have been by DS3. We know that there is at least one mausoleum full of fire keepers who presumably tended to a Lord of Cinder (perhaps each, perhaps multiple maidens per Lord, as this isn't strictly out of the question). Implications suggest that it's been many, many ages since DS1, with the names of that age fading from memory (Artorias is referred to as totally forgotten despite being one of the foremost figures of Gwyn's regime). So nobody can offer you a concrete answer on that front, I'm afraid.

I mean we could use that as a possibly or likely rating

If not I could settle for a "Likely Far Higher"

I just figured there might be some stuff in DS2 that could imply some more since most people seem to gloss over that one

 

[hippoishungry]

If we're treating Bed of Chaos as 4-C then I see no reason we shouldn't treat Nito, Seath and the Four Kings as 4-C as well considering their all used to satiate the Lordvessel and none are noted to be incredibly superior to the others

And for Four kings we can just divide 4-C by 4 for their value

As for Nito he can be 2.2x 4-C at full power since it does specify most of his power was gone which "Most" meaning in most cases more than half AKA 60%

Gwyn's rating would change to be 5x star level


Also would anyone well versed in all three games be able to give us a decent estimate as to the number of lords of cinder that have linked the flame before the events of DS3?

I know of the 7-8 mentioned in the OP but I'm sure in lore there are many others mentioned

Ironically the bed of chaos is actually noted to be superior to the others, with the item description noting that it's soul is more than enough to satiate the lordvessel whereas all the other soul descriptions simply state they can satiate the lordvessel, no more no less. Granted that doesn't make it incredibly superior, but that's why i suggested downscaling to low 4-C+ (Which would put all the other lords as slightly more than half as powerful as the bed of chaos)

The thing with the Four Kings soul is that the one you use for the lordvessel mentions "Soul of one of the Four Kings", meaning that it only takes the soul of a single king to satiate the lordvessel just as well as Nito and Seath.

Mabye we can make another key for Nito then?

TBH I think the 7-8 are the only confirmed ones. I think the likely far higher you suggested is probably the best option

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean we could use that as a possibly or likely rating

If not I could settle for a "Likely Far Higher"

I just figured there might be some stuff in DS2 that could imply some more since most people seem to gloss over that one

We might also be able to use the various forms of the Soul of Cinder's first phase as additional Lords of Cinder.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Ironically the bed of chaos is actually noted to be superior to the others, with the item description noting that it's soul is more than enough to satiate the lordvessel whereas all the other soul descriptions simply state they can satiate the lordvessel, no more no less. Granted that doesn't make it incredibly superior, but that's why i suggested downscaling to low 4-C+ (Which would put all the other lords as slightly more than half as powerful as the bed of chaos)

My bad then its been a sec since I've played the first

In the case are we defaulting to baseline Low 4-C+ then for all the others?

Mabye we can make another key for Nito then?

Yeah that's what I was thinking

He should at least scale to Bed of Chaos by nature of having a full Lord Soul and if not he would still be 2.2x Low 4-C+ which would also allow him to reach 4-C

We might also be able to use the various forms of the Soul of Cinder's first phase as additional Lords of Cinder.

TBH I think the 7-8 are the only confirmed ones. I think the likely far higher you suggested is probably the best option

Possible

Also if we interpret "it is their very souls that have manifested themselves" as their respective lords full power we could ad a few more multipliers to the list

 

[hippoishungry]

My bad then its been a sec since I've played the first

In the case are we defaulting to baseline Low 4-C+ then for all the others?

Mhm, yeah

Yeah that's what I was thinking

He should at least scale to Bed of Chaos by nature of having a full Lord Soul and if not he would still be 2.2x Low 4-C+ which would also allow him to reach 4-C

 

[Tyranno223]

Bump?

This would mean that prime Gwyn would be 4-C+:
Low 4-C+*5 (Seath + Four Kings) + baseline 4-C (Weakened Gwyn still strong enough to be a lord of cinder) = 4-C+

With Nito and the Bed of Chaos as well (again, those souls are also required to be considered worthy to be Gwyn's successor) does the rating change much?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I dunno if I'd agree with the idea that they're all given even shards of Gwyn's soul, so I think this is at best a "possibly" type deal

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Bump?

With Nito and the Bed of Chaos as well (again, those souls are also required to be considered worthy to be Gwyn's successor) does the rating change much?

I'll write a summary down here tomorrow but Gwyn would be downgrade to 4-C+

I'll have to look through this thread again tho before I summarize

 

[Tyranno223]

I dunno if I'd agree with the idea that they're all given even shards of Gwyn's soul, so I think this is at best a "possibly" type deal

Frampt says this in regards to the Souls that fill the Lordvessel

"Very well.
As Kingseeker, I shall now instruct you, the Lord's successor in your next task.
To achieve your fate, fill the vessel with powerful souls,
commensurate to the great soul of Gwyn.
Scarce few possess such brilliant souls.
Gravelord Nito, the Witch of Izalith,
the Four Kings of New Londo, who inherited the shards of Gwyn's soul…
and Lord Gwyn's former confidant, Seath the Scaleless.
All of their souls are required to satiate the lordvessel."

Aka, all these souls are needed to match Gwyn.

• Commensurate - corresponding in size or degree; in proportion.
  "salary will be commensurate with age and experience"

 

[Tyranno223]

I'll write a summary down here tomorrow but Gwyn would be downgrade to 4-C+

I'll have to look through this thread again tho before I summarize

Even with the other two souls? The previous calc didn't include Nito and the Bed of Chaos.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Even with the other two souls? The previous calc didn't include Nito and the Bed of Chaos.

Bed of Chaos = Baseline Star level
Weakened Nito = Baseline Small Star level+
4 Kings = Baseline Small Star level+
Seath = Baseline Small Star level+

Altogether = 2.5x Star level

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Frampt says this in regards to the Souls that fill the Lordvessel

"Very well.
As Kingseeker, I shall now instruct you, the Lord's successor in your next task.
To achieve your fate, fill the vessel with powerful souls,
commensurate to the great soul of Gwyn.
Scarce few possess such brilliant souls.
Gravelord Nito, the Witch of Izalith,
the Four Kings of New Londo, who inherited the shards of Gwyn's soul…
and Lord Gwyn's former confidant, Seath the Scaleless.
All of their souls are required to satiate the lordvessel."

Aka, all these souls are needed to match Gwyn.

• Commensurate - corresponding in size or degree; in proportion.
  "salary will be commensurate with age and experience"

I really don't think that's enough to justify the notion that's being put forward. I don't even think it's a too terribly unlikely idea that Seath is roughly equal to one of the Four Kings, I just don't agree that this supports that much. They are souls of great strength (which could be said to correspond to Gwyn), that doesn't imply Seath is directly equal to Four Kings, which throws off the entire idea.

I think the 4-C+ downgrade is fine (maybe with some tweaks?), but rather as a possibly.

 

[Tyranno223]

Bed of Chaos = Baseline Star level
Weakened Nito = Baseline Small Star level+
4 Kings = Baseline Small Star level+
Seath = Baseline Small Star level+

Altogether = 2.5x Star level

Nice, thanks.

I really don't think that's enough to justify the notion that's being put forward. I don't even think it's a too terribly unlikely idea that Seath is roughly equal to one of the Four Kings, I just don't agree that this supports that much. They are souls of great strength (which could be said to correspond to Gwyn), that doesn't imply Seath is directly equal to Four Kings, which throws off the entire idea.

That was already settled over here

The specific souls emphasise their power comes from being fragments of Gwyn's soul

"Soul of one of the Four Kings, who fell to the Dark. A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul. Although this is not a full Lord Soul, it can still satiate the Lordvessel."

"Soul of the albino dragon, Seath the Scaleless. A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered at the dawn of the Age of Fire.Seath allied with Lord Gwyn and turned upon the dragons; for this he was awarded Dukedom embraced by the royalty, and given a fragment of a great soul. Although just a piece, it will still satiate the Lordvessel."


Both souls emphasize Gwyn's soul fragments as the reason why they can satiate the Lordvessels.

The dialogue I'm quoting isn't even discussing that anyway. Frampt is explicitly saying all those souls are needed to equal Gwyn's soul.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Also this was a weakened Gwyn's soul that we are equaling
His souls states
"Lord Gwyn bequeathed most of his power to the Gods, and burned as cinder for the First Flame, but even so, Lord Gwyn's soul is a powerful thing indeed"
Meaning we can multiply that 2.5x star level by an additional 2.5x (Most usually mean more than half which we can equate to 60%)

Giving us a 6.25x star level full power Gwyn which makes it back into High 4-C

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Lastly, this would affect Soul of Cinder since we have a concrete value both Gwyn and Cursed undead scale to

Which means Souls full power at minimum would be
Gwyn = 2.5 Star level
Cursed Undead = At least 2.5 Star level
Solaire = Star level
Bearer of The Curse = Star level
Abyss Watchers = Star level
Aldrich = Star level
Ludleth = Star level
Yhorm = Star level

Souls Minimum full power = 10x Star level
Souls Minimum full power (With Solaire) = 11x Star level

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Nice, thanks.


That was already settled over here


The dialogue I'm quoting isn't even discussing that anyway. Frampt is explicitly saying all those souls are needed to equal Gwyn's soul.

Again, this doesn't track to the justifications for rating Bed of Chaos or Nito as such.

Weakened Gwyn = Baseline 4-C (Sustained the First Flame)

Four Kings/Seath = Somewhere below Baseline 4-C, unclear where; those dialogue/descriptions merely state that A. they are extremely powerful in some proportion to Gwyn's own soul and B. that they can indeed satiate the Lordvessel (not the First Flame, mind); the way that they're phrased actually seems to imply the opposite, that these fragments are not equal to Gwyn's soul, but can still be used in the Vessel regardless

So, respectfully, no. That isn't explicit enough in my eyes.

Lastly, this would affect Soul of Cinder since we have a concrete value both Gwyn and Cursed undead scale to

Which means Souls full power at minimum would be
Gwyn = 2.5 Star level
Cursed Undead = At least 2.5 Star level
Solaire = Star level
Bearer of The Curse = Star level
Abyss Watchers = Star level
Aldrich = Star level
Ludleth = Star level
Yhorm = Star level

Souls Minimum full power = 10x Star level
Souls Minimum full power (With Solaire) = 11x Star level

The problem here is that due to the existence of the Soul of Cinder potentially not being a new concept, it may well be that as time progresses, increasingly stronger souls are required to link the flame (thus creating an ascending problem scaling similarly to the spread of the Dark Soul as the human population increases). Given the disparities in time, it may well be that DS2/DS3 creatures are significantly higher into the 4-C madness of the verse as a result.

Basically I think an "At least" is still absolutely necessary here, and of course my prior issues with the Gwyn/Chosen Undead/Four Kings/Seath/etc matter are still applicable (leaving the 2.5x Star Level bits to be questioned).

 

[Tyranno223]

Again, this doesn't track to the justifications for rating Bed of Chaos or Nito as such.

Weakened Gwyn = Baseline 4-C (Sustained the First Flame)

Four Kings/Seath = Somewhere below Baseline 4-C, unclear where; those dialogue/descriptions merely state that A. they are extremely powerful in some proportion to Gwyn's own soul and B. that they can indeed satiate the Lordvessel (not the First Flame, mind); the way that they're phrased actually seems to imply the opposite, that these fragments are not equal to Gwyn's soul, but can still be used in the Vessel regardless

So, respectfully, no. That isn't explicit enough in my eyes.

Each fragment explicitly referenced Gwyn as the reason they can satiate the Lordvessel, the original souls are barely considered in that regard.

Again, that is a secondary point anyway. The main thing is that Frampt explicitly says that filling the vessel with the powerful souls will allow one to be commensurate to Gwyn's soul.

It takes all those souls to match Gwyn. It is outright required for Frampt to consider you his successor, and he was Gwyn's confidant in life and he would know how strong Gwyn's soul is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes. Being a small fragment of one of the most powerful souls at the dawn of creation would make them potentially very powerful. I do not contest that they do possess incredible strength, I contest the specific numbers being put to them.

I addressed Frampt's statement, too, at which point you directed me to these others, which are also not sufficient.

I do not afford leeway here- except my inclinations go in the other direction than your own. I would not upgrade the Four Kings and Seath to outright Low 4-C based on evidence as flimsy as this. Were it left to me, I would change their ratings to "At least Low 6-B, likely far higher" for having souls specifically stated to be powerful enough to satiate the Lordvessel. I don't see the merit in the 4-C ratings on their pages currently and in fact I don't recall when they were put there.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes. Being a small fragment of one of the most powerful souls at the dawn of creation would make them potentially very powerful. I do not contest that they do possess incredible strength, I contest the specific numbers being put to them.

I addressed Frampt's statement, too, at which point you directed me to these others, which are also not sufficient.

I do not afford leeway here- except my inclinations go in the other direction than your own. I would not upgrade the Four Kings and Seath to outright Low 4-C based on evidence as flimsy as this. Were it left to me, I would change their ratings to "At least Low 6-B, likely far higher" for having souls specifically stated to be powerful enough to satiate the Lordvessel. I don't see the merit in the 4-C ratings on their pages currently and in fact I don't recall when they were put there.

Well that's a seperate matter from what I'm discussing. I'm simply using the ratings as they are, this isn't something to discuss with me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well that's a seperate matter from what I'm discussing. I'm simply using the ratings as they are, this isn't something to discuss with me.

You, Tyranno, are discussing proposed new ratings and multipliers for these things. I am saying I disagree with these ratings you are discussing, and proposing my own. I do not see how this is a "separate matter".

 

[Tyranno223]

You, Tyranno, are discussing proposed new ratings and multipliers for these things. I am saying I disagree with these ratings you are discussing, and proposing my own. I do not see how this is a "separate matter".

I'm not proposing new ratings, I am quite literally just trying to scale based on existing ratings. If you refer to the Low 4-C stuff, that wasn't my proposal, I'm just using it as that's what's currently been agreed on.

 

[Tyranno223]

For clarity, I am saying we should rate Gwyn's soul based on the combination of all the souls needed to satiate the Lordvessel.

The stuff regarding Seathe and Four Kings was, as I said, settled earlier. My response is in regards to their contribution to the Lordvessel. I already conceded on them not being 4-C, the Low 4-C suggestion comes from Schmeaty, who I condeded to.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For clarity, I am saying we should rate Gwyn's soul based on the combination of all the souls needed to satiate the Lordvessel.

The stuff regarding Seathe and Four Kings was, as I said, settled earlier. My response is in regards to their contribution to the Lordvessel. I already conceded on them not being 4-C, the Low 4-C suggestion comes from Schmeaty, who I condeded to.

Ovens and I spoke after that, but only regarding the discussion of Gael, not Four Kings/Seath. I suppose I could put forward a separate discussion for this with the others if you're adverse to speaking on it now?

 

[Tyranno223]

Ovens and I spoke after that, but only regarding the discussion of Gael, not Four Kings/Seath. I suppose I could put forward a separate discussion for this with the others if you're adverse to speaking on it now?

If you're talking about the Low 4-C stuff, I have limited interest there. I might comment and things might change from there, but no need to hold on my part.

Again, I'm just pushing Gwyn's scaling for now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay. The discussion is fairly intermingled: could you give me a general synopsis of what it is you are trying to say?