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Marvel Revisions (Part 2) - Mystics , Skyfathers , and Fear Lords -- Oh My !

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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Hello there ! We have successfully completed the 2-A Revisions for the majority of characters that seem to easily scale to this without much contradiction. This was done in the previous thread . Now we need to discuss the more contradictary bits and come to a satisfactory conclusions:

  • The Level of the Skyfathers and Comparable Entities... Do they scale to 2-A? [Status: Not Started]
  • The Level of the Mystic Entities and Comparable Entities... Do they scale to 2-A? [Status: Not Started]
  • The Level of the Elder Gods and Comparable Entities... Do they scale to 2-A? [Status: Not Started]
  • How do we rate the Avatars of the Phoenix Force ? Do they scale to 2-A? [Status: Not Started]
  • What tier is the Nexus of All Realities truly on, and what tier do we treat shattering it [as it would scale to the Dweller and thusly Mystical Entities Levels] : [Status: Not Started]
  • How do we treat feats of Celestial Level entities being compared to the Chaos Wave , and Celestials being involved in it's creation ? Is it possible to lowball this to 2-A and force it to be consistent ... Or do we discuss the possibility of far higher statistics ? [Status: Not Started]
  • How do we treat implications of supposedly most Cosmic 2-A events involving the Captain Britains Corps being implied to have a High 1-B likelihood and vice versa [I.E: Chaos War, Abraxas, Chaos Wave,Jaspers Warp, and quite a few others] ? Is it possible to lowball this to 2-A and force it to be consistent ... Or do we discuss the possibility of far higher statistics ? [Status: Not Started]
 
It's depends but in sleepwalker tie in of infinity wars, every stone have a "world" with it and some are endless like mindstone and other stones like reality and soul stone have access to all stories.
 
Bump. All of them have been notified. As for the topic of this Infinity War Sleepwalkers:

As of re-reading Infinity Wars: Sleepwalkers:

  • My main problem is the implications this makes on actual scaling is concerned. All the stone's should be relative in power, and if all stories prior to Infinity War [with the same combined cosmologies as some of the stories contain like Chaos War and Ultimates] are realities contained within the reality stone, the Soul Stone contains the Nexus of All Realities , the others should be comparable. So... How do we treat this to the singular infinity stones which have been fought by semi-Abstract Level beings ? Also... Do we treat the worlds within the stones as comparable to each other in AP, as well as the stone themselves ?
 
- Odin is consistently about world tree level, so he shouldn't be 2A at all.

- Yes, they should be, Dormammu has tons of consistent 2A feats and all the people who scale to Dormammu, Strange also has some which can be used.

- They created the Crossroads which is atleast 2A and Cthon was implied to be above Dormammu when Dormammu summoned Cthon in order to start the day of judgement basically

- They have too many 2A feats and not nearly enough anti feats, so yes, 2A

- "Atleast 2A" for the Nexus sounds good to me.

- Celestials do have their own 2A feats so it wouldn't be far fetched to scale them to 2A, and High 1B Celestials is a given if we look at Scathan and Tiamat, who was portrayed as Omniversal in the black celestial saga.

- Again, instead of flat out 2A "Atleast 2A, likely far higher" seems great to me.

- The term infinity is relative so you can't really use that for anything, the IG also has some great feats like taking on the sum total of galactus (which includes well fed) soo

- The Mindscape does seem to be 5D considering the fact the dude literally was navigating the nexus of all realities (and hey, if the nexus is atleast 2A this could also be prolly a 1A statement lol, but thats too outlierish)

- The Soul Stone having its own Nexus of realities was already accepted in another thread, I think, its a pretty great feat.

- Again, "Atleast 2A, likely fair higher" seems great for all the profiles Imo, except the mystical entities.
 
We are definitely not going to consider the Celestials as High 1-B. It has to be considered as a complete outlier or our scaling chain would be destroyed.

Anyway, we need input from our most reliable members who are knowledgeable about Marvel.
 
The Celestials as a race in their totality are high 1B, its undeniable with beings like scathan, hell they are even high 1B with prep in their profiles, i am not using this to scale any of the other characters by the way, I was just speaking in general.
 
Scathan has been systematically ignored and is likely not a part of continuity anymore. The Celestials nowadays are repeatedly either beaten by Galactus, Ego, Franklin, or Cosmic Cubes.
 
The Celestials were briefly considered superior to Eternity, Protege, and the Living Tribunal in that story. This is no longer remotely the case.
 
I disagree as those who would scale definitely aren't "nobodies".

Also you said the scaling system would be destroyed when we implemented 2-A quite a few times... That clearly didn't happen and won't happen. Especially when those who would scale if I attempted to go that route are actually far above the Universal Abstracts and closer to the Multiversal Abstracts because once again there are things I intentionally held back mentioning because I wanted to at least get 2-A accepted.
 
The nonsensical Ultimates scaling was also all over the place. It had Ego beat up Celestials, and the Black Panther beat up an entity who killed the Living Tribunal. Again, we are not going to upgrade the Celestials to High 1-B, period. This is not up for debate, as we have discussed the issue several times before, it would completely mess up our scaling chains, and I do not have the time to argue about it.
 
Ego Prime who is far superior to his normal self*

the black panther thing is just a singular outlier and it doesn't actually correlate to the celestials scaling, its like saying because lucifer 2000 had this ONE outlier then we should just not scale lucifer at all
 
Well, I do not have the time and energy to argue about this again. Let's wait to see what the others think.
 
As we have stated repeatedly at this point, 5 cosmic cubes have since overpowered universal Eternity, who the Celestials have been stated to be below, and a single cube has overpowered an entire host of Celestials. The obscure comicbook with Kubik and Kosmos speculating about the Celestials seems to have been ignored by every writer after that.
 
Not every writer, in Thanos samaritan he remembers encounter kosmos in that comic.

And celestials are above universal eternity.
 
Within Heroes Reborn they were shown as far less powerful, and Thanos was not a part of the brief comicbook story in which Kubik and Kosmos encountered a Celestial, as far as I am aware.
 
Anyway, if none of the reliable members are going to respond here due to being sick and tired of repeating themselves over and over about Seed's severe exaggerations, I don't have the time and energy to argue either, and we should preferably close this thread to save time, to wait for PrinceOfTheMorning to start his own, far less unreasonable, revision thread.
 
Antvasima said:
Within Heroes Reborn they were shown as far less powerful, and Thanos was not a part of the brief comicbook story in which Kubik and Kosmos encountered a Celestial, as far as I am aware.
Click to expand...
Well Thanos is in that story and even Thanos know who he was .

I was only saying that celestials have enough feats to make then 2-A easily and far above scalling with multiversal eternity.
 
I honestly believe that the different retcons of the Celestials deserves a key as they do cary from being tier 1 in one iteration to tier 2 to tier 5 and have actual explanations for why said retcons take place. Of course then we'd have to realize what to do about those who scale to them, but I feel like it's okay if this isn't accepted.

Once his is resolved we really do need to go over the checklist completely.
 
Hykuu said:
they don't, and don't bother spamming the feats, already seen em
Click to expand...


They survive to the end of 6 interations of the omniversal eternity plus first firmament, to survive to entropy that ends eternity the 616 heroes in the incursions needed a fragment of the living tribunal skin.
 
Bump. I had this sort of eureka moment about how we treat most of the Marvel Cosmics... I'm hoping you'll listen [Not sure if this is worthy of another thread or not but I'd like to at least voice it out]

  • Marvel Cosmics is currently viewed as the only real running theme is "consistency". Which essentially means if you grab a lot of scans across Marvel, regardless of where in the canon/ it's at, even if it's anothe retcon with a cosmology that contradicts the others from other runs and retcons , and they seem consistent it allows an upgrade. I've seen others besides myself use this, especially on offical profiles [Like Eternity being High 1-B from using 3 different retcons with 3 different cosmologies that contradict each other].
  • This exact line of reasoning is why Marvel Cosmics are so hard to Upgrade or even Revise because people such as those I currently respect who debate Marvel here online [including myself] were only looking at 'the whole picture of Marvel' rather than how Marvel does it: Via retcons and specific runs that change the power levels, backstories, and everything of a certain character. We've explicitly done it with Beyonder and Molecule Man, but ignored the fact that most cosmics go through similar changes on a much more frequent basis.
  • So my proposal is to separate certain important cosmic characters based on arcs and retcons, rather than forms. This likely does take more work in determining the tiers for the keys for each, but if successful allows us to easily make changes as we only narrow our focus to those specific runs/arcs that connect together , not the whole of Marvel which is the stem of such inconsistency. It also allows us to make revisions easily as we aren't being close-minded about tier changes via [the massive inconsistency of Marvel] and rather looking at [these run's specific feats]
  • For example, the Celestials would be separated in a way similar to this: [Classic , Pre-Retcon Secret Wars ,Hickman's Run, Heroes Reborn, Ultimates, etc] . Then we do something similar for maybe Franklin Richards: [Classic, Daydreamers/Strange Tales, Heroes Reborn, Abraxas , Ultimates, Secret Wars]. The Cosmic Cubes could be labeled in a similar fashion, etcetera and etcetera.
I know this seems extremely ambitious, but I await feedback on doing something like this.
 
  • Marvel Cosmics is currently viewed as the only real running theme is "consistency". Which essentially means if you grab a lot of scans across Marvel, regardless of where in the canon/ it's at, even if it's anothe retcon with a cosmology that contradicts the others from other runs and retcons , and they seem consistent it allows an upgrade. I've seen others besides myself use this, especially on offical profiles [Like Eternity being High 1-B from using 3 different retcons with 3 different cosmologies that contradict each other].


I don't know, Marvel cosmology seems to be consistenty of my point of view. It's have a few contradictions like any other verse of this wiki (DC for example) .

And about the post in my point of view is that all of the characters covered in this post have 2-A scaling.
 
As much as I'd love to agree with your sentiment Luck, as I really want to believe it has a lot of consistency, it doesn't have "just" a few contradictions.. The whole verse in and of itself is a living and breathing contradiction , and scaling is only the iceberg of it. I feel as if we can at least change that if anything, considering how long I've been at this and everytime an upgrade with feasible evidence is brought forth, "inconsistency of Marvel scaling" is alays the first thing brought into question Luck. It iss what makes Marvel Comics what it is,

Feel free to have said Point of View Luck.... I don't judge you as that's how I previously felt... You are like a mirror of who I used to be honestly, and how I used to think , and I feel happy that you follow your optimism to the end. Unfortunately, Marvel's staff doesn't agree with your sentiments . .
 
Unfortunately, Marvel's staff doesn't agree with your sentiments . .


I know. Is very hard make a upgrade of Marvel cosmology.
 
Very true. I honestly know your pain. Hopefully what I proposed gets accepted because it may actually result in something amazing if it succeeds, at least for a few specific cosmics . I'm making a sandbox example of what I proposed so it's easier to understand... So yeah hopefully that does well.

In the meantime, does anyone want to try to check off the checklist ?
 
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