Marvel Revisions (Part 2) - Mystics , Skyfathers , and Fear Lords -- Oh My !

[Antvasima]

The first scan does not make any sense. Thanos is not a demonic entity, and the others mostly have little relation to each other. And Thanos having heard of Kosmos/The Maker does not mean that they had met previously.

 

[Antvasima]

@Seed

You will have to ask PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman31 to comment here regarding your idea of multiple statistics for some of Marvel's cosmic entities.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I strongly disagree with doing such a thing. The nature of shared comic universes means that we would logically be required to account for every different power level across nearly every different creative team if we wanted to be consistent with the tiering method. Otherwise it would be completely arbitrary and only serve as a means of getting certain characters upgraded through separate keys.

I think it's a bad idea that would lead to far more problems than it would solve, no offense meant to you on a personal level.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that seems to be a conclusive answer. We won't apply different statistics then.

Should we close this thread?

 

[Hykuu]

"They survive to the end of 6 interations of the omniversal eternity plus first firmament, to survive to entropy that ends eternity the 616 heroes in the incursions needed a fragment of the living tribunal skin"

Again, we don't know how they did it so you can't quantify it, it takes an assumption to say they just flat out tanked it other than pulling a silk man

@Ant calm down lol, POTM isn't the only one who knows comics on the wiki, let's wait for a bit more feedback

Here's the thing, the keys should actually only apply to the Dematteis cosmology, that's it, seed's suggestion is actually great, we don't have to do this to EVERY character, just every character in the already mentioned arcs, because that's all that's needed considering how they vary so much in power, again, this is only actually needed for the franklin stuff. This isn't favortism of any sort, its simply trying to actually find a way to fit in the whole thing.

Even if POTM disagrees with the suggestion, what about the 2A levels we SHOULD actually be discussing instead?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. I don't take it as offensive Prince... I'm much more levelheaded than before , but ... I agree with Hykuu.. No offense to you Antvasima or you Prince. My intention wasn't to make this into a " we will affect everyone with this", but as mentioned in the thread would only affect a very select few profiles [a few in this case being 2] because they tend to be far more inconsistent than the others Marvel cosmics and would explicitly require this much to be more 'organized' ... Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

For these select few profiles [2:,Man-Thing,Franklin]: Even if other cosmic comic arcs that are supposedly canon are completely ignored for these to save time with this method [which I don't blame if that happens once this is accept], DaMatteis' Arcs/Cosmology would be the only one that requires this method as his cosmology is far too inconsistent to group with the other canon arcs /contuities [because there is far more evidence hinting of it's canonicity and more so an arc than an entirely different "canon" as anything else which would cause problems in the future if left ignored/unchecked] . We also already do this for certain characters so it wouldn't be something If we only do DaMatteis with this:

• This will be known as a canon arc to a character that is unscalable to the other canon arcs/continuities [Meaning no "Tier 1 Everyone" Cosmics within our profiles and no worrying about "how it fits into the larger whole" or "how to worry about Marvels total scaling" because we'll isolate it by itself , rather than accutely ignoring this issue] because of inconsistency and an entirely different cosmology & backstories [just like how we view some arcs that were canon but was contradicted so it was considered a retcon or ignored, just like how we view some characters already for DC & Marvel] , not neccessarily a different continuity but a continuity within the canon that requires a separate key isolated from the others to be consistent.
• This is treated as a safeguard to avoid inconsistency as what this is intended to do, and will essentially have a in-place system to debunk trying to tie this cosmology into the canon and cause massive inconsistencies.
• Because this canon comic, as it is implied to be as DaMatteis aforementioned 2-3 days ago {with a different quote than before so it isn't the exact same one} ,has scaling so severe we can't even implicate it into the other arcs even if we wanted to, which is why developing the key is crucial.
• It will show that we don't cross scale the Fallen Stars stuff, Shamballa Stuff, and other exclusive stuff such as that with the other canon material. Plus we can always make a rule for this in the forseeable future if this becomes a problem to not cross scale between that and the other contnuities/arcs because it will cause problems if we do that.
• It will show allow us to ignore this stuff in the future because we've already decided to use it when maybe in future revision threads.

Also again we still need to discuss the others things on the checklist. This was just a side thing I wanted to discuss thoroughly with Prince and the others before we got started on the checklist mentioned in the OP because I was curious what people thought because I honestly thought apply this is a good idea.

 

[Luck100]

The first scan does not make any sense. Thanos is not a demonic entity, and the others mostly have little relation to each other. And Thanos having heard of Kosmos/The Maker does not mean that they had met previously.


Thanos is death champion/avatar/servant, makes sense he be there.

 

[Luck100]

"They survive to the end of 6 interations of the omniversal eternity plus first firmament, to survive to entropy that ends eternity the 616 heroes in the incursions needed a fragment of the living tribunal skin"
Again, we don't know how they did it so you can't quantify it, it takes an assumption to say they just flat out tanked it other than pulling a silk man

I don't know how they did too. I only know that if you want to survive a multiversal destruction you need something like a multiversal entity skin in marvel comics (or cosmic powers).

 

[Huesito88]

I remembered a few 616 heroes made a ship to survive the incursion, but it instead it tanked God Doom's change of reality. When did they use the Tribunal skin to survive it?

 

[Luck100]

I remembered a few 616 heroes made a ship to survive the incursion, but it instead it tanked God Doom's change of reality. When did they use the Tribunal skin to survive it?

Avengers (2013) #42 the celestials that don't face the beyonders survive the multiveral collapse too.

 

[Huesito88]

Ahh I see what they did with the skin.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanos is death champion/avatar/servant, makes sense he be there.

No, it does not. Stating that all of the beings in question share some realm of origin is not supported by anything else.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Shouldn't skyathers have universal lifting strength scaling off atlas

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Uhmm.... Prince's judgement was based solely around the fact it was going to affect all the Marvel profiles, which as both I and Hykuu mentioned in our post wasn't the case and it'd only affect an extremely minor amount of people [like maybe 2, or 3 depending on if the last one gets created before it gets implemented].

 

[Antvasima]

POTM has told me that he will eventually handle a revision of the remaining Marvel cosmic entity profiles, although we will have to wait a while.

Given that it is unlikely that this thread will lead anywhere, we should preferably close it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. I would still like to bring Prince back solely to discuss the proposal as his whole argument was that I was planning on affecting every cosmic profile, which I wasn't, and it would affected every cosmic, which it wouldn't. It would only affect 2 profiles [FR & Man-Thing/Strange] with one key ["Fallen Stars Canon"] meant to isolate a key and make it unscalable to the other canon arcs as while they are supposedly canon via the word of DeMatteis with a different quote than last time, and they have their own set of canonicity , cosmology, backstories, characterization, importance of charactwrs and vastly different major cosmic events.

I ask simply that the key is treated as an unscalable arc key to other canon arcs rather than an separate canon now since it allows the key and has a built in system to not use it to scale to canon arcs. Not sure if we can make a key or separate peofile for them for this canon arc of DeMatteis but I'd argue we could do either depending on what they think.

This option allows us to freely use the feats of this canon arc for their own web of canonicity and portrayals without worrying about comparing it to other canons and looking for consistency from other arcs and end up downgrading them just to feel they are consistent with other arcs when it was never the intention for DaMatteis to make it consistent and we have to acknowledge that in some fashion.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask him to comment here again if you wish.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Seed

You missed the mark about my comment above. I didn't say you were going to alter every profile, I said doing so would be the logically consistent thing to do once you start handing out separate keys to account for standard inconsistencies in power level and cosmology in shared comic universes.

Changing only a couple profiles is what I called arbitrary, because it shows that keys for separate arcs can be doled out when someone really wants to upgrade a specific character and ignore the inconsistencies. It wouldn't stop people down the line from doing the same for basically every comic character. 4-B Spider-Man key, 6-C Post-Crisis Superman key, 6-B Green Lantern key, I can go on and on. And we wouldn't have a leg to stand on to deny such things if we allow it to happen for a few profiles now.

If I'm overruled by other staff, so be it. But this is something my mind is firmly set on, and I heavily disagree with it. It sets a bad precedent.

 

[Antvasima]

For what it is worth, I think that POTM makes sense.

 

[Luck100]

Thanos is death champion/avatar/servant, makes sense he be there.

No, it does not. Stating that all of the beings in question share some realm of origin is not supported by anything else.

Why Thanos need a realm of origin ? I don't take it, other entity's of this comic have the main universe like the realm of origin like Thanos.

Ex: Phoenix, Wacthers, High evolutionary, Uni Mind, Mangog and even Galactus.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, I don't have the energy to waste any more time on this nonsense, but Mephisto, the Fear-Lords, Cthon, and SHuman-Gorath do not canonically share the same realm, and have nearly nothing to do with Thanos. That's it. End of discussion.

 

[RM97]

I'm sorry if this is not the right thread to discuss this but: Every individual who has consistently hurt or affected Marvel Abstracts or their m-bodies should get Non-Physical Interaction. And, Marvel Abstracts as well as similar characters who can affect concepts should get Type 3 Concept Hax since they are bound by the object participating in the concept. For example, Eternity exists as long as the Universe/Multiverse exists.

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't the right thread, no, and it will likely be closed soon.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I'm sorry if this is not the right thread to discuss this but: Every individual who has consistently hurt or affected Marvel Abstracts or their m-bodies should get Non-Physical Interaction. And, Marvel Abstracts as well as similar characters who can affect concepts should get Type 3 Concept Hax since they are bound by the object participating in the concept. For example, Eternity exists as long as the Universe/Multiverse exists.

their M bodies are not type 1 AE.They are manifestations by definition they are not type 1.Their true forms are type 1 AE

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Fine then.

 

[Antvasima]

Should I close this thread then?

 

[Luck100]

Look, I don't have the energy to waste any more time on this nonsense, but Mephisto, the Fear-Lords, Cthon, and SHuman-Gorath do not canonically share the same realm, and have nearly nothing to do with Thanos. That's it. End of discussion.

They are death little minions like Thanos, that what I wanted to say.

They have nothing to do with Thanos. True.

But, Thanos serve the will of death like the hell lords and any other entropic forces.

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that they were shown to live within some kind of shared realm of evil. That is nonsense.

Also, SHuman-Gorath has destroyed the entity Death across several universes.

 

[Luck100]

He don't live in a shared realm of evil. They was only there because they are at service of death, is like a place where the evil ones go meet with others at service of death.

And SHuman-Gorath well, I think he does that toin the end eat all eternity (like chaos king did).

 

[Antvasima]

You are using wild speculation. They were largely not even established as servants of Death in the early 90s.

Can we drop this stupid discussion please?

 

[LordTracer]

When Prince makes his revision thread, is it only going to include mystical beings like Nightmare, Dweller In Darkness, etc. or would there be others discussed like Skyfathers, Phoenix Hosts, etc.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Ant

So what's going on here? Are we continuing the scaling talk in this thread or did you still want me to make another one in the future?

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Shouldn't we wait for more input?

 

[Antvasima]

@POTM

The scaling talk here seems too disorganised and exaggerated. I would prefer if you handle it later after making preparations instead.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Perhap POTM could give his edited version here instead of a new thread?

 

[Antvasima]

It is better to do so in the first post for organisational purposes.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I'd also like to point out that there are other reliable members that helped in the last thread who can help as well. Tracer for example (among others, just giving an example).

I'm saying this because you guys are gonna be waiting a while if I'm to make a whole thread that encompasses all these subjects. There are a lot of issues that need to be examined to accurately assess context.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with waiting. You can also ask other members for help with gathering information.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Ok, if that's you what think is best go for it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this then.