• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Marvel DeMatteis Word of God Revision

Status
Not open for further replies.
So..... basically its not actually referencing Cantor's Theorem but JMD's own beliefs, which boils down to "God is Omnipotent and everyone is God".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is referencing his beliefs that God is Absolute Infinite and that that Infinity is what God and Everyone else is. He also states how he defines God is everyone's collective interpretations of God put together, so, The Divine Creator being both Absolute Infinite & the representation of Unity would also be true simultaneously. You can also find this indication in the original WoG, where despite it being his interpretation of God is also everyone else's vision/interpretation. So it's really not about whether some versions of God would be different / bad. He knows they are. But he's saying God as he defines it encompasses all of those possible visions / interpretations. The main issue really is whether the two WoGs can be used or not.

Both on and off topic, Marvel itself considers DeMatteis' Word such that even though DeMatteis' never published the final chapters of what occurs at the end of his The Divine Creator, him telling Marvel what happened was apparently more than enough for them to place it under the official canonicity of the affected characters under the Official Handbooks in 2006 despite it never being published, which was later on referenced by another Continuity altogether during it's depiction of Man-Thing. This should be satisfactory proof Marvel considers DeMatteis' Word in very high regard.
 
Last edited:
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
It is referencing his beliefs that God is Absolute Infinite and that that Infinity is what God and Everyone else is. He also states how he defines God is everyone's collective interpretations of God put together, so, The Divine Creator being both Absolute Infinite & the representation of Unity would also be true simultaneously. You can also find this indication in the original WoG, where despite it being his interpretation of God is also everyone else's vision/interpretation. So it's really not about whether some versions of God would be different / bad. He knows they are. But he's saying God as he defines it encompasses all of those possible visions / interpretations. The main issue really is whether the two WoGs can be used or not.
Click to expand...
emoji.png


 
Did he actually say that ? Let's actually quote exactly what he said in response, which was in the OP but here it is:
"Any time you see God / Creator mentioned in my stories, I'm referring to God. Not a comicbook character, but God. And your interpretation of that depends on your personal vision of God" . Yes it was in response to whether or not God is omnipotent or not, but he did not actually say what you said.. He said your interpretation of what he's referring to as God in the prior statement, depends on your vision of God. Then I mentioned another time he referred to his vision of God as literally being everyone's interpretation of God. That was what my post was about.

However since I'm pretty sure we are going to go back and forth about this, I will just acknowledge your disagreement and will wait to see what others think.
 
Bump.
Added the additional quote(s) from interviews/JMDeMatteis' site merely for support that it's well within DeMatteis' intention that everyone's interpretation/vision of God accumulate into the God we see in his stories as additional back-up, though I really don't think it's neccessary as it's pretty obvious that's what his intent is considering his responses to the nature of God.
 
It is still uncertain whether Divine Creator, which represents a nonfictional God, or TOAA, representing the collection of all authors and editors, is contextually stronger.
However, based on the Alternate Universe Marvel handbooks interpretation of the Omniverse, it is understood that the real world is intended to exist inside the Marvel Multiverse as Earth-1218, giving TOAA dominion over Marvel's supposed "real world" and thus possibly placing him above Divine Creator.

Additionally, there is the concept of the House of Ideas, which is believed to be above all author interpretations of Marvel Comics, including DeMatteis' vision of God and whatnot.
 
Cosnidering DeMatteis' stated to him there is no difference, they might just be straight up comparable to one another, which imo is undebatable considering Chaos War: Thor vehemently backs up the idea TOAA and DIvine Creator are one in the same as they are both described the exact same way, the issue is who is the 'stronger' of the two. Continuity however is weird with DeMatteis' Cosmology. So you may actually be able to argue those things are a concept in DeMatteis' Continuity.

Keep in mind I won't push for it b/c of the current canon rules for Marvel and this is just for discussion for the moment. The Handbooks explicitly imply it's canon across all continuities depictions of Man-Thing's stories, then Marvunapp which the Handbooks acknowledge as an official source state that DeMatteis' stories happened despite said Marvunapp entries being canon cross continuity versions of those characters, then DeMatteis stated his comics are canon to the Mainstream MU, and his definition of canon ,is explicitly that anything published by Marvel and taking place within the MU is canon, may hint that his Cosmology is a composite one, which while thanks to the Quantum Reality stuff helps thin out inconsistencies would still drastically raise his cosmology if that were to be accepted, but that's neither here nor there.

I will also say even if DeMatteis' Cosmology is accepted as composite, Keys for said Cosmology would only be for significant characters to DeMatteis' Cosmology and not literally a Key for everyone type of deal, which would only affect like... a few current profiles [I.E: Man-Thing]
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
It is still uncertain whether Divine Creator, which represents a nonfictional God, or TOAA, representing the collection of all authors and editors, is contextually stronger.
However, based on the Alternate Universe Marvel handbooks interpretation of the Omniverse, it is understood that the real world is intended to exist inside the Marvel Multiverse as Earth-1218, giving TOAA dominion over Marvel's supposed "real world" and thus possibly placing him above Divine Creator.

Additionally, there is the concept of the House of Ideas, which is believed to be above all author interpretations of Marvel Comics, including DeMatteis' vision of God and whatnot.
Click to expand...
Sorry for the double post but I also want to state that even though Earth-1218 was never officially stated, he constantly refers to the concept throughout his Marvel Works. Heck, DeMatteis' had Oblivion that the Quantum Reality > All of Real Life's Imagination, not even The Divine Creator.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Sorry for the double post but I also want to state that even though Earth-1218 was never officially stated, he constantly refers to the concept throughout his Marvel Works. Heck, DeMatteis' had Oblivion that the Quantum Reality > All of Real Life's Imagination, not even The Divine Creator.
Click to expand...
Can you clarify more?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Can you clarify more?
Click to expand...

.
Uh sure (Warning this is a lot):

Man-Thing Vol 1997: "WELCOME... TO THE END OF ALL THINGS. WELCOME TO THE DISSOLUTION OF WORLDS. THE ANNIHILATION OF UNIVERSES. WELCOME TO YOUR FUTURE" Narrator speaking to the Reader. The only way it was 'our' future is if a exact version of us existed there, otherwise we really can't call it 'our' future, just some random version of us.

The Mighty Thor Annual #1 2012: "YOU WASTE YOUR TOO-SHORT LIFESPAN TRYING TO PERCH A MYSTERY THAT CAN NEVER BE PENETRATED. HOW CAN IT BE ? YOUR WORLD --- YOUR VERY SELF --- IS A DREAM THAT BUBBLED UP FROM A CONSCIOUSNESS BEYOND YOUR IMAGINING" . Oblivion is directly talking to the Reader. Similar reasoning to 1997. If it isn't an exact version of us, it wouldn't be us.

Silver Surfer 1987: "PREVIOUSLY IN... SILVER SURFER, more determined than ever and risking his very life, breached the zone between the Macroverse and our universe to confront the Emergence on Earth" . Context of the scan is that it's the Real Life Narrator talking to the Reader. Similar logic and reasoning to the previous two.

Mighty Thor Annual was in 2010s, Man-Thing and Silver Surfer were ~10 year apart from each other, yet despite that this concept is consecutively a part of his timeline even with the considerable gaps. The only way Oblivion would truly know about us in such a way, is that rather than our actual selves being there, an exact fictional copy exists. It backs up the idea God is suppose to quite literally be all of us:
  • "You don’t exist. And neither do I. We’re both thoughts floating in the mind of the One Dreamer, the Only Dreamer, God Himself. (I say He, but I could just as easily say She or It.) It’s God’s dream, all of it, and He’s dreaming it through us and with us and—best of all—as us."
  • "My POV is more Eastern. I think it's all Maya, a collective dream that God is dreaming in order to (paradoxically) wake us up to the fact that we're literally One, we're ALL GOD, and our individual identities are illusions."
  • I’ve written before about the idea—explored, in differing fashions, by both mystics and scientists—that the universe is just dreamstuff: an infinite ocean of primal energy that’s only given form by our perceptions. In other words, it’s all an illusion, tailored to, created by, the individual consciousness: every one projecting our dream-universes into the Void. From my perspective, I’m manifesting the entire Creation, including you; from your perspective, you’re manifesting it all, including me. (Which means, essentially, that right now you’re reading your own words, not mine.) And with each choice we make, each mental step we take, each thought we send vibrating out into that ocean of energy, we birth new universes, an infinite stream of shimmering bubbles blown through the wand of our minds. (Of course, in the end, it's all God dreaming through us and as us, but that's another essay for another time.)

Normally this would be the burden of proof in the comics that he proves that 'we' are in the comics so to speak, but that isn't a concern with the above. So it wouldn't make sense if not an exact version of us and our reality exist within the MU in this version. It's the only way he can truly be for sure 100% that the Quantum Reality is beyond our imagination, and it's technically quite consistent througout years of difference where you'd normally expect the writer to drop consistency, you don't find that with DeMatteis.
 
Thank you.
Yeah it's quite insane. Honestly could hardly believe it when I first saw it a year plus ago (Why I didn't do this 2 years ago ? Way worse mentally and just got back from a critical mental state that I still haven't fully recovered from). The in-lore ramifications are pretty insane. It now has exactly what World of Darkness' Tellurian has, but instead of it being based on in-fiction Imagination, it's our imagination instead.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Thank you.
Yeah it's quite insane The in-lore ramifications are pretty insane. It now has exactly what World of Darkness' Tellurian has, but instead of it being based on in-fiction Imagination, it's our imagination instead.
Click to expand...
So, what does that mean for our wiki in simple terms?

Hope you’ll be fine, mate.
 
MrKerf said:
So, what does that mean for our wiki in simple terms?

Hope you’ll be fine, mate.
Click to expand...
Okay. I will be. So, we shall go ahead and do two things: Safe, and Unsafe. This is the safe assumption :
  • Creation would contain All of our Real Life Imagination, and The Divine Creator is described to be one with the Dream just as much as they are the Dreamer, which is Everyone's Interpretation/Vison of God, which at a safe minimum thanks to the WoG, would include Georg Cantor's Absolute Infinite., which is treated as either High 1-A or 0 based on previous usages.
  • The Gap between Nexus Fragment and Creation would make the Dream/Nexus Tier 0 even if we assume High 1-A for the above.
  • Those who scale to the Dream: 0
  • Those who scale to the entirety of Creation: High 1-A or 0
Unsafe Assumption (Which while it definitely has backing , personally I wouldn't go for it):
  • God would include the Quantum Reality as it is referred to as God and one of DeMatteis' description of God matches exactly what the Quantum Reality is and what Oblivion stated of it in Mighty Thor Annual.
  • The Quantum Reality would scale to either High 1-A or 0 as a result
  • The Quantum Reality was revealed to be but one of many Universes like it (as Savior / The Silver Surfer was unaware of the Universe entire, Silver Surfer even after knowing of the Quantum Reality called the Macroverse completely unimaginable to himand beyond his current knowledge, despite knowing of beings that encompass the entirety of 'Creation'
  • Those who scale to The Quantum Reality: Either High 1-A / 0
  • Those who scale to Macroverse: High 1-A / 0
  • Those who scale to Entirety of Creation : High 1-A / 0
  • Those who scale to Dream / Nexus: 0
 
Bump. Something really interesting about this is that since God is Everyone's Interpretation/Vision of God , God is what we see in story, and Every being/thing in MU is God.. Then, just like how God is every interpretation/vision of them, then the Marvel Universe would be every interpretation/vision of it in the same manner.

As undoubtedly crazy as that is, it surprisingly explains well a lot of how DeMatteis his fictional works [especially him directly stating saying said works is whatever you imagine / interpret it to be, and referring to both ways as having limitless possibilities], as well as it also explaining away any sort of inconsistencies as well. It's so BS, but so ingenious too.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Thank you.
Yeah it's quite insane. Honestly could hardly believe it when I first saw it a year plus ago (Why I didn't do this 2 years ago ? Way worse mentally and just got back from a critical mental state that I still haven't fully recovered from). The in-lore ramifications are pretty insane. It now has exactly what World of Darkness' Tellurian has, but instead of it being based on in-fiction Imagination, it's our imagination instead.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what i was thinking, pretty similar to SCPs Noosphere too.
 
I don't really think it's a good idea to ramp up Marvel by so many tiers, especially tier 0, based only off 1 or 2 author statements. DeMatteis himself has stated over a dozen times that any interpretation of the text is as valid as his, not to use his statements for battleboarding and similar, many of which have been addressed to the very person who asked DeMatteis in that scan. If there was more on panel descriptions/statements of God and everyone being absolute infinity, it'd be much more useful than a few author scans.
 
Joshn05 said:
I don't really think it's a good idea to ramp up Marvel by so many tiers, especially tier 0, based only off 1 or 2 author statements. DeMatteis himself has stated over a dozen times that any interpretation of the text is as valid as his, not to use his statements for battleboarding and similar, many of which have been addressed to the very person who asked DeMatteis in that scan. If there was more on panel descriptions/statements of God and everyone being absolute infinity, it'd be much more useful than a few author scans.
Click to expand...
Yes, I also much prefer to only scale from in-story information, especially given that DeMatteis does not actually own Marvel Comics as a whole.
 
I've only read the original post so forgive me if I'm missing any information, but I'd rather not base an entire tier on something that doesn't even seem to be alluded to in the comic books or any guides at all. Never mind how one author's interpretation should have to be pretty cast iron in the setting itself to hold sway of the scaling of a verse as titanic as a mainstream comic book publisher.
 
One, As I actually showed recently, some of the scans have been provided from one of many avenues. I didn't show all of them because this thread wasn't suppose to focus on potential tiering, which I was going to go ahead and show with or without the WoG that it'd still be higher than it's currently depicted in the blog. Two, this thread wasn't suppose to discuss the actual tiers yet because I wanted to reread the material and make sure my catalog was prepared before doing it, and I got very sidetracked. So it isn't just WoG alone, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered attempting this. This thread's only purpose was to determine if the WoGs in question could be used. Three, they are separated by Continuity.

This thread is discussing DeMatteis' Continuity only, not the entirety of Marvel. Cosmologies vary from Continuity to Continuity. The whole point of the canon rules is that we don't group them together. I really don't get how people are assuming I'm trying to upgrade it all when I literally said earlier that wouldn't even be a thing due to the canon rules.

So if we could please refocus on evaluating if said WoG can even be used so we can actually make some progress.
 
What Planck said and also This says how you interpret God, there are like tens of thousand different Gods, so it depends on a person persoanal view of their God and not all of those Gods are some supreme and infinite being. Also this one is used to refer to humans reading his Comics ""I do believe, at our core, We are all God and Absolutely Infinite"
They do not mean much for scaling, this is a common "Everyone is a God" Troupe, I am not absolutely infinite, that I am sure of
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
In response to whether or not God is 'Omnipotent', DeMatteis answers the following: "Any time you see God / Creator mentioned in my stories, I'm referring to God. Not a comicbook character, but God. And your interpretation of that depends on your personal vision of God"
Click to expand...
Fundamentally disagree with this, especially given information we have on "God" from the Beyond comic line.

Not only this, but we have far more understanding on the TOAA and God.

I think what he's more so talking about is the equivocation between the TOAA and being God as a religious figure (ala Kurt [Nightcrawler] being a known Christian and actively praying to God)
 
Um while I will count your disagreement, this would affect DeMatteis' Cosmologies' Interpretation of God, not other writers. What their "God" is wouldn't affect another continuities' God.
Udlmaster said:
Fundamentally disagree with this, especially given information we have on "God" from the Beyond comic line.

Not only this, but we have far more understanding on the TOAA and God.

I think what he's more so talking about is the equivocation between the TOAA and being God as a religious figure (ala Kurt [Nightcrawler] being a known Christian and actively praying to God)
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Wankbreaker
  • Locked
Nasuverse: Word of God Removal Removal (heh)
2 3
Replies
108
Views
4K
CRIMPSUMPSKI2
CRIMPSUMPSKI2
VeryGoofyToddler2
J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)
7 8 9
Replies
336
Views
36K
VeryGoofyToddler2
VeryGoofyToddler2
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
God of War: Kratos Key Addition and Revision + Superhuman Precision for Ares
Replies
5
Views
675
Aetheric Pariah
Aetheric Pariah
ArachDusa
  • Locked
The secret use of God Ki
Replies
27
Views
2K
Damage3245
Damage3245
TyphonEX
  • Locked
God of War Dimensional Downgrade Part 1(???): The Yggdrasil
2 3
Replies
100
Views
8K
Theglassman12
Theglassman12
Back
Top