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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 4
- Thread starter DarkDragonMedeus
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@Overlord775
This thread will be copied to the new site, and starting a new thread without Classic's elaborate counter-arguments and the tally of who is for and against this would be dishonest.
This thread will be copied to the new site, and starting a new thread without Classic's elaborate counter-arguments and the tally of who is for and against this would be dishonest.
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I just do not agree with their interpretation of those scans. They are, again, rehashes of arguments we have been having on this thread for months now. One of the points Driger posted was literally a restatement of an argument from the very first Yggdrasil thread, and the arguments calling for an Odi upgrade by proxy were rejected both here and on a thread about Skyfathers that happened nearly half a year ago.
The evidence for Tier 1 Yggdrasil has been reviewed many times by everyone here. Everybody is aware of the arguments for it, and we need no further elaboration on those points. The majority of key members just do not agree with them. Due to how the revision process works, we will not be able to upgrade Rune King Thor at all without getting those key members to vote in favor of the change. I am proposing a lower scale upgrade with different reasoning that those key members might agree to, but that won't happen either if nobody is willing to hold a vote on it and bring this thread to a permanent close. In the absence of a conclusion, literally nothing is going to be upgraded.
The evidence for Tier 1 Yggdrasil has been reviewed many times by everyone here. Everybody is aware of the arguments for it, and we need no further elaboration on those points. The majority of key members just do not agree with them. Due to how the revision process works, we will not be able to upgrade Rune King Thor at all without getting those key members to vote in favor of the change. I am proposing a lower scale upgrade with different reasoning that those key members might agree to, but that won't happen either if nobody is willing to hold a vote on it and bring this thread to a permanent close. In the absence of a conclusion, literally nothing is going to be upgraded.
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The upgrade of skyfathers was not accept because some people actually complained about Jane Foster (Thor) agaisnt Odin and use it even Odin claiming being nerfed .
And some people was against Yggdrasil being eternity or have infinity universe but they don't even complain about spatial dimensions or reaching others pantheon realms.
And some people was against Yggdrasil being eternity or have infinity universe but they don't even complain about spatial dimensions or reaching others pantheon realms.
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I agree that the 1-A side do not seem to understand or accept the fundamental rules that we have for thread evaluations in this wiki. If there is no staff consensus, nothing will ever get done unless we reach a compromise solution. Denying this will just continue to waste all of our time.
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The Skyfather upgrade was rejected for many more reasons than a few Jane Foster outliers, that scan you've provided is not adequate evidence that Odi has been recently nerfed, and the extent of Yggdrasil's size has been discussed in full- including its existence in other realms and whether or not it extends into higher spatial dimensions.
The key members have rejected these upgrades on all fronts. They do not agree with your interpretation of the scans or events, and you are not going to get them to change their minds by continuing to push for the same thing over and over again. This has been going on for months. Your only move forward is to wait for more evidence to present itself in newer comics that might vindicate your position. When that happens, you can then put forth that new evidence to see if it causes some reconsideration. For the sake of actually resolving this, I'd be willing to meet in the middle with a compromise for now, but if you just keep holding on to your single interpretation without accepting any sacrifices or alternatives, then Rune King Thor is never going to get out of the 2-C category. Part of being in a community involves making compromises with others, even if you don't see eye-to-eye. I'm willing to work with you guys, but you've gotta give me a line here. I'm really trying.
The key members have rejected these upgrades on all fronts. They do not agree with your interpretation of the scans or events, and you are not going to get them to change their minds by continuing to push for the same thing over and over again. This has been going on for months. Your only move forward is to wait for more evidence to present itself in newer comics that might vindicate your position. When that happens, you can then put forth that new evidence to see if it causes some reconsideration. For the sake of actually resolving this, I'd be willing to meet in the middle with a compromise for now, but if you just keep holding on to your single interpretation without accepting any sacrifices or alternatives, then Rune King Thor is never going to get out of the 2-C category. Part of being in a community involves making compromises with others, even if you don't see eye-to-eye. I'm willing to work with you guys, but you've gotta give me a line here. I'm really trying.
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I agree with Classic. We have been willing to compromise here, despite that we could just leave Rune King Thor at 2-C forever, but the rest of you have to be willing to do so as well, or nothing will happen.
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Just make him 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C due to the eternity Scans and transcending the tree at this point
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I would personally not mind "At least 2-A, possible Low 1-C" as a compromise solution, based on that TWSAIS allegedly transcend all of the Aesir, including Odin, as they transcend mortals, but it depends on what Classic and Matthew think.
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ClassicNESfan said:
If a scan from 2014 is not adequate to knowing when Odin got nerfed I don't know what would be more appropriate. Himself saying that his powers is not what used to be.
And the existence of higher planes was not refucted but actually proved with scans, all pantheons of earth have realms that are in planes beyond time and space like the new gods stuff and even some "alien" gods like the skrulls ...
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I think that it would be easier to upgrade him and the Destroyer armor's third key, because they technically scale to a Celestial, but I'm not strictly opposed to Ant's suggested justification.
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@Classic
I know that upgrade of skyfathers was rejected, in part because of what I said before: You(Not you, but everyone here) created an limit tier to SF feats= 2-C. And every feat higher than 2-C is distorced to be 2-C or ignored. But the point is: In current system Destroy or Create an higher dimension or higher plane are feats to 2-A or more!
Thor bridged the void between lower(Midgard) and higher realms(Asgard) (Thor vol 1) Asgardians are from higher plane (Thor vol 2) Gods are beings of higher planes, and can't interfere with humanking
Even ignoring all, is fact that Asgardians are beings from higher plane or higher dimension. And these description about "beyond concepts or measure of time space" are more than a way of saying that Asgard is another universe, or exists outside of the universe, it's a way of saying that Asgard is/exists a higher plane of existence
Asgardians can't scale with this, they only live in higher plane. But Odin, Surtur, and maybe Hela can scale with this. Them are beings that can affect these realms, or even destroy. Odin could be 2-A, likely low 1-C, and this is coherent with point of Dormammu and Odin be equals in power. Both are higher dimensional beings or beings of higher planes that can destroy these higher planes.
RK Thor could scale above this, at least.
I know that upgrade of skyfathers was rejected, in part because of what I said before: You(Not you, but everyone here) created an limit tier to SF feats= 2-C. And every feat higher than 2-C is distorced to be 2-C or ignored. But the point is: In current system Destroy or Create an higher dimension or higher plane are feats to 2-A or more!
Thor bridged the void between lower(Midgard) and higher realms(Asgard) (Thor vol 1) Asgardians are from higher plane (Thor vol 2) Gods are beings of higher planes, and can't interfere with humanking
Even ignoring all, is fact that Asgardians are beings from higher plane or higher dimension. And these description about "beyond concepts or measure of time space" are more than a way of saying that Asgard is another universe, or exists outside of the universe, it's a way of saying that Asgard is/exists a higher plane of existence
Asgardians can't scale with this, they only live in higher plane. But Odin, Surtur, and maybe Hela can scale with this. Them are beings that can affect these realms, or even destroy. Odin could be 2-A, likely low 1-C, and this is coherent with point of Dormammu and Odin be equals in power. Both are higher dimensional beings or beings of higher planes that can destroy these higher planes.
RK Thor could scale above this, at least.
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@Ant: Sure. I'd be willing to compromise to that.
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Yeah, for now, let's just do "At least 2-A, possibly Low 1-C"
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Higher plane does not automatically mean higher dimensions that are infinitely higher in terms of raw power than a regular universe, and classic Dormammu has much greater personal feats than Odin does. Marvel being Marvel means that much weaker and stronger characters are recurrently compared to each other due to several hundreds of writers and tens of thousands of stories over 80 years of time.
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@Ant
I remember Ultima saying that this description about "infinite higher" when are higher planes or higher dimensions isn't required.
And Ultima helped the development of current system(?).
This is the point: Live in higher dimensions or higher planes not determine his power level, but destroy these higher planes or dimensions is feat that scale someone.
I remember Ultima saying that this description about "infinite higher" when are higher planes or higher dimensions isn't required.
And Ultima helped the development of current system(?).
This is the point: Live in higher dimensions or higher planes not determine his power level, but destroy these higher planes or dimensions is feat that scale someone.
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Superman punching The World Forger had nothing to do with higher realms. I was involved in reviewing that upgrade, and I can personally vouch that higher realms were completely irrelevant to what happened in that thread. And The New Gods were upgraded for existing in higher realms, but there's more context to it than that. Wiki procedure states that "higher realms" need to meet certain qualifying factors before they allow for an upgrade, because not all writers treat "higher realms" as infinitely superior transcendant areas. Simply claiming you destroyed a "higher realm" is not enough to make you Low 1-C. Sometimes, those kinds of feats only qualify as Low 2-C.
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And these mentions about higher planes are coherent with description of Mayan Gods with at least 11D.
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I bet my liver on the Marvel Mayan Gods having no feats of their own that would indicate they are even on Thor's level.
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Also, it was not stated in those scans that the Mayan gods are 11-dimensional, just that the scientist in question had proven the existence of other realms with higher-dimensional mathematics.
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Current system work with destruction of higher realms or higher dimensions considering this point. The description of infinite higher is only an additional. The point of "infinite higher" is applicable to Asgard: The higher realms exist above(beyond) the normal measure of time and space or even concepts of space and time. The space and time in Asgard exist in higher level than in Midgard, all description about beyond measure of space and time are about this. Asgard existing in higher level of space and time than "normal universe"ClassicNESfan said:
The point is: Isn't scale every Asgardian, only Odin|Surtur
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@Driger
I don't think those statements are adequate to prove what you are looking for, but more to the point, I also don't think that this is the right time to be discussing upgrades for Odi, Surtur, etc either. Rune King Thor should really be our primary concern here, not other Skyfathers, regardless of how I feel about your argument. Many wiki members participated in the original thread that tried to upgrade Odi and standard Skyfathers to 2-A, and it would be inconsiderate of us to reject that upgrade only to impliment it later during a thread that was not even advertised to incorporate Odi upgrades at all. It would look like we were trying to quietly subvert their decision. If you're still interested in upgrading Odi and the other Skyfathers after we're done here, then you can make a thread about those upgrades later, and I'm sure more people would arrive to discuss the possibilities with you. But right now, I'd like to know if you'd be okay upgrading Rune King Thor to 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C for being significantly stronger than The Destroyer armor, which sliced off the arm of a Celestial and being beyond Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, who are to the Asgardians as the Asgardians are to humans. Does that sound reasonable to you?
I don't think those statements are adequate to prove what you are looking for, but more to the point, I also don't think that this is the right time to be discussing upgrades for Odi, Surtur, etc either. Rune King Thor should really be our primary concern here, not other Skyfathers, regardless of how I feel about your argument. Many wiki members participated in the original thread that tried to upgrade Odi and standard Skyfathers to 2-A, and it would be inconsiderate of us to reject that upgrade only to impliment it later during a thread that was not even advertised to incorporate Odi upgrades at all. It would look like we were trying to quietly subvert their decision. If you're still interested in upgrading Odi and the other Skyfathers after we're done here, then you can make a thread about those upgrades later, and I'm sure more people would arrive to discuss the possibilities with you. But right now, I'd like to know if you'd be okay upgrading Rune King Thor to 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C for being significantly stronger than The Destroyer armor, which sliced off the arm of a Celestial and being beyond Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, who are to the Asgardians as the Asgardians are to humans. Does that sound reasonable to you?
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(Sorry. Fixed it.)
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@Classic Determining the power level of Odin and Surtur, you can scale RKT better
1) I know that this thread is about RKT, but scale of others gods and beings interfere in conclusion of this post, like the scale of "Destroyer". Add the point of Gods(SF) be at least 2-A, likely low 1-C is the same that you are doing with Destroyer. Is a point to scale of RKT better.
2) I agree with The Destroyer scale with Celestial and RKT scale above. But I agree with Kep too.
For now, Low 1-C is better than nothing, even that I disagree in as was developed that thread(In many moments was permitted insults and provocations, and great part of argues were ignored. Ant, you really need be more impartial)
1) I know that this thread is about RKT, but scale of others gods and beings interfere in conclusion of this post, like the scale of "Destroyer". Add the point of Gods(SF) be at least 2-A, likely low 1-C is the same that you are doing with Destroyer. Is a point to scale of RKT better.
2) I agree with The Destroyer scale with Celestial and RKT scale above. But I agree with Kep too.
For now, Low 1-C is better than nothing, even that I disagree in as was developed that thread(In many moments was permitted insults and provocations, and great part of argues were ignored. Ant, you really need be more impartial)
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Okay. Well, it looks like we're approaching something resembling a compromise.
There are not enough key members in agreement to pass Low 1-A Rune King Thor. That's not going to happen. But if everybody is willing to cooperate, we might be able to squeeze out a 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C upgrade based on the reasoning provided above.
If Odi and the standard Skyfathers are upgraded to Low 1-C in the future, obviously that will scale Rune King Thor for an upgrade as well, but that's a discussion for another thread. I'm going to scoot out for now, because I have some personal things to take care of, but since I'm one of the key members needed for an upgrade this large, feel free to tap on my wall if anyone needs me. I really believe that you guys can bring this thread to a reasonable conclusion if you work together. I'll notify you if my stance on the matter changes, but I will not be participating in the war of attrition that was going on earlier should it somehow revive itself. I'm not in the habit of writing essays unless the burden of proof is on me or I'm very passionate about the subject, and it's not good for my health right now.
Good luck! To all of you!
There are not enough key members in agreement to pass Low 1-A Rune King Thor. That's not going to happen. But if everybody is willing to cooperate, we might be able to squeeze out a 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C upgrade based on the reasoning provided above.
If Odi and the standard Skyfathers are upgraded to Low 1-C in the future, obviously that will scale Rune King Thor for an upgrade as well, but that's a discussion for another thread. I'm going to scoot out for now, because I have some personal things to take care of, but since I'm one of the key members needed for an upgrade this large, feel free to tap on my wall if anyone needs me. I really believe that you guys can bring this thread to a reasonable conclusion if you work together. I'll notify you if my stance on the matter changes, but I will not be participating in the war of attrition that was going on earlier should it somehow revive itself. I'm not in the habit of writing essays unless the burden of proof is on me or I'm very passionate about the subject, and it's not good for my health right now.
Good luck! To all of you!
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@Matthew
My point isn't about scale every god or every mayan god to Thor level or Odin level. Even that the skyfather of Mayan Gods is more powerful than Thor, as any skyfather is more powerful than any god, as Thor or Hercules. Hunab Ku(SF) is more powerful than Thor, and this isn't debatable.
Great part of Marvel Myth haven't feats.
But some gods have higher feats, creating worlds|dimensions, some are gods as Thor, not even in Odin Power Level.
As I said before: The point of gods live in this higher dimensions isn't a scale to his power level, what can scale the gods is: Destruction or creation of theses higher realms|dimensions. In resume: Feats. This is what determine power scale of someone. Not where he|she live.
Asgard is higher dimension|higher realm? Yes
Odin can destroy Asgard? Yes
Odin scale with this | The same to Surtur, and maybe Hela(In some moments)
And this interfere in conclusion of this thread, RKThor is more powerful than Odin, Surtur, even that you disagree with 1-A, arguments of Kep(None refuted). Odin be 2-A or (Low)1-C is an point to be debated too.
RKThor could be at least low 1-C in poor case, or higher.
I believe that Marvel need of more blogs to cosmology.
My point isn't about scale every god or every mayan god to Thor level or Odin level. Even that the skyfather of Mayan Gods is more powerful than Thor, as any skyfather is more powerful than any god, as Thor or Hercules. Hunab Ku(SF) is more powerful than Thor, and this isn't debatable.
Great part of Marvel Myth haven't feats.
But some gods have higher feats, creating worlds|dimensions, some are gods as Thor, not even in Odin Power Level.
As I said before: The point of gods live in this higher dimensions isn't a scale to his power level, what can scale the gods is: Destruction or creation of theses higher realms|dimensions. In resume: Feats. This is what determine power scale of someone. Not where he|she live.
Asgard is higher dimension|higher realm? Yes
Odin can destroy Asgard? Yes
Odin scale with this | The same to Surtur, and maybe Hela(In some moments)
And this interfere in conclusion of this thread, RKThor is more powerful than Odin, Surtur, even that you disagree with 1-A, arguments of Kep(None refuted). Odin be 2-A or (Low)1-C is an point to be debated too.
RKThor could be at least low 1-C in poor case, or higher.
I believe that Marvel need of more blogs to cosmology.
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