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Continued from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3850463
Overview:
This thread is meant to evaluate exactly how much of the Marvel multiverse Yggdrasil (otherwise known as The World Tree) encompasses. Yggdrasil is a central part of Marvel's Thor series, and many of the larger feats involving the Thor cast deal with someone damaging, affecting, or otherwise posing some level of threat to Yggdrasil. While the structure is traditionally portrayed as only supporting 9-10 realms (which have been confirmed to be entire universes), some concern has recently been raised that Yggdrasil may in fact encompass much more of the Marvel multiverse. There are more or less two perspectives on this.
Were Perspective #2 to be adopted, nothing would change.
Below are some relevant arguments for both perspectives. Neither list is exhaustive, but I made a good faith effort to include talking points which have not been dropped or have not reached a unanimous conclusion yet. I encourage people to read the arguments and evaluate the reasoning on both sides without bias. If you have anything to add to either side, please do so in a comprehensive and polite manner, making it as easy to understand as possible. In the interest of full disclosure, I am against the upgrade right now. Please let us know your opinion in the replies. I am the original author for several of the "Against" arguments, so if that section seems more exhaustive, it is because I am more familiar with it. Don't let that sway your decision. If any argument in this opening post is not represented properly, understand that it is a result of my own shortcomings in recalling, comprehending, and/or communicating the argument. I am unconscious of any such errors, but if any are found to exist, I kindly request that these last few sentences be viewed as an apology in advance. It is my honest desire that this thread should find itself to the most accurate and representative conclusion within the scope of this wiki's abilities.
Arguments For Low 1-A Yggdrasil
Overview:
This thread is meant to evaluate exactly how much of the Marvel multiverse Yggdrasil (otherwise known as The World Tree) encompasses. Yggdrasil is a central part of Marvel's Thor series, and many of the larger feats involving the Thor cast deal with someone damaging, affecting, or otherwise posing some level of threat to Yggdrasil. While the structure is traditionally portrayed as only supporting 9-10 realms (which have been confirmed to be entire universes), some concern has recently been raised that Yggdrasil may in fact encompass much more of the Marvel multiverse. There are more or less two perspectives on this.
- 1. Perhaps Yggdrasil functions similarly to Eternity and Marvel's other abstract beings. That is to say, perhaps there is one massive Yggdrasil that encompasses the entire Low 1-A structure of Marvel while each individual Marvel reality also hosts a smaller Yggdrasil manifestation that only supports 9-10 universes. Any scans that seem to suggest Yggdrasil only has 9-10 universes are either statements made by a character who doesn't know any better or are only referring to a Yggdrasil manifestatio rather than the true World Tree.
- 2. Perhaps Yggdrasil functions similarly to a standard Marvel structure. That is to say, perhaps one Yggdrasil exists in each Marvel reality, supporting 9-10 universes, but no such higher dimensional Yggdrasil exists. Any scans suggesting the existence of a Low 1-A Yggdrasil are either taken out of context or are a part of a recent revamp to the Marvel multiverse and therefore, cannot be back-scaled to upgrade any previous feats of characters affecting the structure.
Were Perspective #2 to be adopted, nothing would change.
Below are some relevant arguments for both perspectives. Neither list is exhaustive, but I made a good faith effort to include talking points which have not been dropped or have not reached a unanimous conclusion yet. I encourage people to read the arguments and evaluate the reasoning on both sides without bias. If you have anything to add to either side, please do so in a comprehensive and polite manner, making it as easy to understand as possible. In the interest of full disclosure, I am against the upgrade right now. Please let us know your opinion in the replies. I am the original author for several of the "Against" arguments, so if that section seems more exhaustive, it is because I am more familiar with it. Don't let that sway your decision. If any argument in this opening post is not represented properly, understand that it is a result of my own shortcomings in recalling, comprehending, and/or communicating the argument. I am unconscious of any such errors, but if any are found to exist, I kindly request that these last few sentences be viewed as an apology in advance. It is my honest desire that this thread should find itself to the most accurate and representative conclusion within the scope of this wiki's abilities.
Arguments For Low 1-A Yggdrasil
- 1. The Norns are known to tend the roots of Yggdrasil as an important component of the Norse cosmology. They spin the thread of fate that controls the cycle of The World Tree, and Those Who Sit Above In Shadow are the ones who provided them with this power. They have also occasionally been called "The Fates" in reference to the gods who had a similar role in Greek mythology. This is important because in Jim Starlin's The Infinity Revelation, Eternity and Infinity are upended by a cosmic metamorphosis caused by Thanos and Adam Warlock's interaction with a trans-dimensional nexus. The decision for these events to occur was made on "a level even beyond The Living Tribunal's hierarchical position," and Eternity directly asks "What were The Fates thinking when they let this travesty take place?" This implies that "The Fates" (aka The Norns) are beyond even The Living Tribunal, which would scale Yggdrasil, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, and Rune King Thor to Low 1-A.
- 2. During Seth's invasion of Asgard, he planned to threaten "every plane of reality" by attacking the main root of Yggdrasil, and he explicitly states that there are "infinite planes of time and space" in the same story. This implies that Yggdrasil supports infinite planes, not just 9-10 universes.
- 3. When Thor hanged himself on The World Tree, he gained the ability to see past the quantum structure and cosmic architecture and into the nothingness of Ginnungagap, which is described as a void that existed before life or any of the realms. This suggests that Ginnungagap is an aspect of Oblivio, the 1-A unmanifest void that exists outside of the Marvel multiverse. As such, Rune King Thor, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, and Yggdrasil should scale to similar levels.
- 4. When Odi encountered Those Who Sit Above In Shadow in a dream, it was said that he was "outside the realms- outside all realities," and post-Secret Wars, Loki encountered them in The Outside, which is a realm beyond the Multiversal Eternity, in which even characters as powerful as Lifebringer Galactus cannot survive for long.
- 5. Quantum Cosmologist Erik Solvong claimed that the nine realms Asgardians recognize as being a part of Yggdrasil is just the tip of a maybe-infinite iceberg. He says "You might believe there are only nine worlds, but brother, I'm here to tell you there's more."
- 6. In a relatively recent Valkyrie story, the titular character ferries Heimdall across several afterlifes, ultimately ending in her throwing him beyond the Far Shore. During an interview, Al Ewing described this story as "a kind of tour of Heaven and Hell in the Marvel Universe that's also a journey up the middle pillar of the Tree of Life," which suggests Yggdrasil (aka The Tree of Life) encompasses more than just 9-10 realms. It encompasses all of Marvel.
- 1. The "Fates" referred to in The Infinity Revelatio are not The Norns from Thor's cosmology. We cannot assume that every time a writer makes an allegorical reference to "the fates," he is deliberately referring to The Norns, especially in a story that does not include The Norns or any other aspect of Thor's cosmology. Jim Starlin has never featured them in any of his stories nor did he include them in his multiversal heirarchy. The Living Tribunal also attributes the events of The Infinity Revelatio to "Destiny," "the stars and their creator," and "his master."
- 2. The above analysis regarding Seth's invasion of Asgard misinterprets terminology used in that story, and it more likely means something quite different when taken in full context. Terms like "reality," "plane," "realm," "multiverse," "universe," "dimension," etc. mean different things, depending on the writer. In this story in particular, "plane" is used as a stand in for "realm," as indicated when Seth claims that the destruction of Asgard's Rainbow Bridge cut them off "from the mortal plane." In Thor's cosmology, the Rainbow Bridge connects Asgard to Midgard (Earth's realm). With this context in mind, we can see that Seth's only mention of "infinite planes" was when he boasted that nobody in "infinite planes" had ever assembled an army as large as his ow. This is just the same as saying "Nobody in infinite universes of the multiverse has ever had an army this big!" There's never any indication infinite planes are actually in danger in the story at all. The only time multiple planes are directly affected in this storyline, they specify that they are talking about the planes within that reality. So, knowing that "plane" likely means "realm" in this storyline, if we further reason that "reality" means "conventional Marvel universe," then this clears up all inconsistencies. By this interpretation, Seth was only threatening every realm within Marvel 616 (i.e. the 9 realms of Yggdrasil), and this also fits with how his battle against Odi caused shockwaves which "ripple across every plane of reality." If those "planes" were meant to be read as "realms" and "reality" was meant to be read as "Marvel 616," then this feat would be consistent with Odin's usual showings. If those "planes" were meant to be read as "every layer of Marvel's omniverse" and "reality" were meant to be read as "all of Marvel," then this would be a Low 1-A feat for both Odi and Seth, which severly contradicts their usual levels.
- 3. Ginnungagap is a central concept from Norse mythology, which claims that reality sprang from an empty void, so the concept present in Thor's stories is not necessarily analogous to Oblivio. In fact, the creation stories that mention Ginnungagap often claim that only nine realms exist.
- 4. We cannot be sure that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow naturally reside in The Outside, because while Odin's original vision of them may have happened "outside of all realities," there are actually many realms in Marvel that qualify as being "outside all realities" without literally being in the 1-A realm beyond everything. Like with The Norns, we cannot assume that every time a writer mentions something being "outside all realities" they are making an intentional reference to The Outside. Furthermore, at the time of Loki's confrontation with Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, the multiverse had just been destroyed. Anybody who had survived or escaped the death of the multiverse was in The Outside (including Loki). Loki was also in possession of the essence of the gods, which Those Who Sit Above In Shadow feed o. Thus, him encountering them in The Outside does not necessarily make The Outside their natural habitat. It just makes it the only place Loki could be at the time, and he had something they wanted. After he scares them off, he even claims they returned "back to wherever they came from," implying they do not naturally live in The Outside. In regards to the scaling specifically, while Lifebringer Galactus might have claimed to have trouble existing in The Outside in a much later story, that seems to have been something that was not yet established when Loki met Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, as fairly mundane beings were surviving just fine in The Outside during this storyline. Therefore, even if you can prove that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow naturally reside in The Outside, it does not really say much about their tiering or the tiering of Yggdrasil.
- 5. Erik Solvong's claims about Yggdrasil only seem to imply it has infinite universes when viewed out of context. Within the context of the full story, Erik Solvong is simply trying to warn the Asgardians that there are more than nine universes out there in the greater multiverse. That does not mean that the other universes are a part of Yggdrasil, but rather Yggdrasil and its nine realms are "the tip" in his analogy while the proverbial "iceberg" is the infinity of other universes outside of Yggdrasil. This can be demonstrated when the storyline itself revolves around a tenth universe from outside invading the nine realms to reek havoc and take over the now-empty Asgard. It is repeatedly described as "the end of the World Tree," and the denizens of the various realms who run away from the invaders are repeatedly called "the refugees of Yggdrasil," "the refugees of The World Ash," "the citizens of the World Tree," etc. This is a clear naming mechanic used to separate the people from withi Yggdrasil from the invaders from outside Yggdrasil. Such a naming mechanic would be redundant if Yggdrasil made up everything. Even Heimdall, who sees everything within the confines of Yggdrasil, only starts to freak out after the invaders from another realm cross over into the local nine universes. This implies that he could not see them before, which further suggests that they were not a part of Yggdrasil.
- 6. It is unclear how poetic Al Ewing was being during his interview, as he describes a tour of several afterlifes as "a tour of Heaven and Hell," almost as if the various "bad afterlifes" are just a singular Hell while the various "good afterlifes" are a single Heaven. Furthermore, the realms visited in this story were specifically realmsspecifically realms Heimdall had never seen before. As mentioned earlier, Heimdall sees all of Yggdrasil, so this would seem to imply that the toured realms lie outside of Yggdrasil. One of the realms they tour through even includes "the anti-tree," described as Yggdrasil's shadow and portrayed as some kind of separate version of Yggdrasil growing through the Greek realms. However, even if all of this is to be ignored and Al Ewing was sincerely proposing that Yggdrasil encompasses the entire multiverse, this would be a rather new development that should not back-scale to characters and events that happened before he started redesigning the Marvel multiverse.
