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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 4

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DarkDragonMedeus

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Continued from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3942007

Overview:
This thread is meant to evaluate exactly how much of the Marvel multiverse Yggdrasil (otherwise known as The World Tree) encompasses. Yggdrasil is a central part of Marvel's Thor series, and many of the larger feats involving the Thor cast deal with someone damaging, affecting, or otherwise posing some level of threat to Yggdrasil. While the structure is traditionally portrayed as only supporting 9-10 realms (which have been confirmed to be entire universes), some concern has recently been raised that Yggdrasil may in fact encompass much more of the Marvel multiverse. There are more or less two perspectives on this.

  • 1. Perhaps Yggdrasil functions similarly to Eternity and Marvel's other abstract beings. That is to say, perhaps there is one massive Yggdrasil that encompasses the entire Low 1-A structure of Marvel while each individual Marvel reality also hosts a smaller Yggdrasil manifestation that only supports 9-10 universes. Any scans that seem to suggest Yggdrasil only has 9-10 universes are either statements made by a character who doesn't know any better or are only referring to a Yggdrasil manifestatio rather than the true World Tree.
  • 2. Perhaps Yggdrasil functions similarly to a standard Marvel structure. That is to say, perhaps one Yggdrasil exists in each Marvel reality, supporting 9-10 universes, but no such higher dimensional Yggdrasil exists. Any scans suggesting the existence of a Low 1-A Yggdrasil are either taken out of context or are a part of a recent revamp to the Marvel multiverse and therefore, cannot be back-scaled to upgrade any previous feats of characters affecting the structure.
Were Perspective #1 to be adopted, all previous threats to Yggdrasil would need to be reevaluated to determine whether the full structure was in danger or just a manifestation. Proponents of this theory currently suggest that the only long-reaching effects would be a Low 1-A upgrade to Rune King Thor and Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, but concerns have been raised about similar feats performed by Odi, Seth, Surtur , and several other Marvel characters currently rated as 2-C.

Were Perspective #2 to be adopted, nothing would change.

Below are some relevant arguments for both perspectives. Neither list is exhaustive, but I made a good faith effort to include talking points which have not been dropped or have not reached a unanimous conclusion yet. I encourage people to read the arguments and evaluate the reasoning on both sides without bias. If you have anything to add to either side, please do so in a comprehensive and polite manner, making it as easy to understand as possible. In the interest of full disclosure, I am against the upgrade right now. Please let us know your opinion in the replies. I am the original author for several of the "Against" arguments, so if that section seems more exhaustive, it is because I am more familiar with it. Don't let that sway your decision. If any argument in this opening post is not represented properly, understand that it is a result of my own shortcomings in recalling, comprehending, and/or communicating the argument. I am unconscious of any such errors, but if any are found to exist, I kindly request that these last few sentences be viewed as an apology in advance. It is my honest desire that this thread should find itself to the most accurate and representative conclusion within the scope of this wiki's abilities.

Arguments For Low 1-A Yggdrasil

Arguments Against Low 1-A Yggdrasil

An edit from Antvasima: Here is my attempt to summarise who supports what from the earlier discussion. If I misunderstood anything, please let me know about it, and I will try to fix it:

Disagree with the suggested upgrade: Antvasima, Matthew Schroeder, ClassicNESfan, PrinceOfTheMorning, DarkDragonMedeus, SomebodyData, Sera EX, Hykuu, C2 of Omegon, Clint2005

Agree with the suggested upgrade: Kepekley23, Ultima Reality, The real cal howard, ParadoxIndifferent, Alonik, Driger-God, Luck100, PhantomMistress, Overlord775, ZeedKrakenZilla, Adem Warlock69, ReshRech, Tony Stark69, Revan Laha

Neutral: I'm Blue daba dee daba die
 
@Revan Laha

Do you agree with the upgrades or with the first post?
 
1. The Norns are known to tend the roots of Yggdrasil as an important component of the Norse cosmology. They spin the thread of fate that controls the cycle of The World Tree, and Those Who Sit Above In Shadow are the ones who provided them with this power. They have also occasionally been called "The Fates" in reference to the gods who had a similar role in Greek mythology. This is important because in Jim Starlin's The Infinity Revelation, Eternity and Infinity are upended by a cosmic metamorphosis caused by Thanos and Adam Warlock's interaction with a trans-dimensional nexus. The decision for these events to occur was made on "a level even beyond The Living Tribunal's hierarchical position," and Eternity directly asks "What were The Fates thinking when they let this travesty take place?" This implies that "The Fates" (aka The Norns) are beyond even The Living Tribunal, which would scale Yggdrasil, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, and Rune King Thor to Low 1-A.


The "Fate" most likely refers to the same thing The Living Tribunal calls "Destiny", a.k.a. TLT's master.

---

3. When Thor hanged himself on The World Tree, he gained the ability to see past the quantum structure and cosmic architecture and into the nothingness of Ginnungagap, which is described as a void that existed before life or any of the realms. This suggests that Ginnungagap is an aspect of Oblivion, the 1-A unmanifest void that exists outside of the Marvel multiverse. As such, Rune King Thor, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, and Yggdrasil should scale to similar levels.

Being older than creation doesn't make you transcendent to it, it means you're older than it. Also, not all aspects of Oblivion are 1-A, one of them was matched by Infinity, we can't assume it's a 1-A aspect of nothingness.

---

4. When Odin encountered Those Who Sit Above In Shadow in a dream, it was said that he was "outside the realms- outside all realities," and post-Secret Wars, Loki encountered them in The Outside, which is a realm beyond the Multiversal Eternity, in which even characters as powerful as Lifebringer Galactus cannot survive for long.

Lmao, it was after the end of multiverse, where were you expecting them to be? Within the multiverse? So that lie machine girl is Low 1-A too? They even got back to where they came from, lol.

---

I agree with rest of the points. Though Yggdrasil connecting the far shore (1-A realm) seems a bit inconsistent.

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Anyway, I disagree with Low 1-A Yggdrasil.
 
ClassicNESfan said:
Just for the record, I am still strictly on the "Disagree" side. I do not find the evidence compelling.
Yes. Me as well. I have nothing against making Marvel characters Low 1-A or 1-A when there is good evidence for it, but this is far too speculative for my taste for for an extreme tier.
 
I know I have not been around lately, so it might not be my place to say this, but this discussion has been going on for quite some time. The topic should really be closed, with the proposed changes either accepted or discarded.
 
Well, we were talking about a compromise solution of upgrading Rune King Thor beyond his current level, but not to such an extremely exaggerated degree, but the other side seems to strongly want Low 1-A or 1-A.
 
Usually to either drop the issue or reach a compromise.
 
...I can see one possible minor upgrade that I'd be willing to pose in good faith, but I doubt it will be considered adequate by the group looking for a much more hefty change. It might just be wiser to discard the topic. I don't think we're getting anywhere.
 
Although, I agree Classic and Matt as well, I really cannot stress enough that Kepekley nor Ultima or anyone supporting them are going to drop this unless at the very least their ultimate rebuttal is another 30 paragraph long research paper that addresses each and every single point much like how Kepekley put it.

Obviously, I cannot since I'm not the super expert of Marvel. And yes, there are more numbers who support Low 1-A Rune King Thor, but only three of them are staff members and all the people who are considered the lead Marvel/DC experts are against it due to requiring to many assumptions and speculations.

I recall Alonik last said that "Those Who Sit Above the Shadow" was the main thing. I know the Yggdrasil thing appears to have mostly statements that are 2-A to Low 1-C at best, but perhaps we can focus on how that scaling is insufficient.
 
Yggdrasil has almost exclusively 2-C statements.

As far as I can tell, literally every 2-A, Low 1-C, and Low 1-A statement presented to us throughout this process has been out of context or misinterpreted, except for one, which was a passing comment in an interview that seemingly contradicted the story it was discussing and may have been more poetic and general than a definitive explanation of canon cosmology.

With all due respect, I firmly believe that- like any debate on the internet- this argument will continue indefinitely if we let it, and nothing original has been brought up in at least a month. People are just continually talking past each other, refusing to back down, forgetting or ignoring previous talking points, and occasionally throwing unfriendly jabs at fellow wiki members. I do not believe that beating the opposition down in an endurance contest should be enough to earn an upgrade, but for personal reasons involving my health, I legitimately cannot be here to write the novel-length responses that have been comprising this topic. I remain completely unconvinced. I guess I'll let you know if that changes. No ill will toward anyody of either side, but I am officially on Team "Crap Or Get Off The Pot."
 
There's hard proof for 2-A, multiple infinite universes statements for Ygg and generally the fact the shadow god thingoes would logically scale above the likes of multiple marvel abtract level beings
 
@Classic

Yes, agreed, but if I lock this thread without us even reaching a compromise solution, there's a high risk that Kepekley would just unlock it later.

In addition, I think that we likely do rate RKT too low currently, just not that we should exaggerate his stature to incredible proportions.

What tier would you suggest?
 
I disagree. I have seen no adequate proof for Those Who Sit Above In Shadow scaling above abstract beings, and the infinite universe statements for Yggdrasil have been debunked for months now. I read those storylines in their entirety, and I do not believe in the slightest that they were suggesting Yggdrasil had infinite universes.
 
Also, I hope that you health will get better.
 
@Ant

In my honest opinion, Rune King Thor is probably due for a Likely Higher qualifier to his key, given that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow were incapable of stopping him. Those five were regarded by the Asgardians in the same way the Asgardians were regarded by the Norse, and that says a lot. Odi saw no reasonable way of defeating them, even with his access to arsenals of 2-C weapons and fellow skyfathers. It's mostly unquantifiable, but you can reasonably speculate that somebody who wouldn't flinch even if Odi exhausted all of his resources should qualify for 2-B. But that's the furthest I'm able to go while still operating in good faith. Anything beyond that would either be contrary to the evidence or wild speculation as I see it.
 
Just saying "those statements are taken out of context" and "no adequate proof" doesn't make them so, show actual proof instead of spitting out statements

Also Thor, Odin and Loki have seen and interacted with abtract level beings countless times and they threated TWSAIS as a much bigger deal
 
I have provided evidence in the past. If you want it, please read back through the previous threads. I am not interested in rehashing things I said months ago that were largely ignored by the opposition. I have heard your arguments. I disagree with them. I am not well enough to write you a thesis restating things I've already said.
 
In fact, on that note, I'm probably going to be skipping out for a while. I'm struggling to type coherently right now. I just basically wanted to drop in and restate "Yeah, nothing they've said here has changed my mind. Keep me in the Disagree pile. If you're looking for an upgrade at any cost, Rune King Thor probably at least deserves a Likely Higher qualifier. Sorry I can't contribute to this thread more frequently. Hope it gets resolved soon in one way or another."

Best of luck!
 
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