Marvel Comics - Odin AP Revision

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Oh, that. I will see if I can gather some relevant scans soon. But isn't tha like common knowledge when it comes to Odin? Like something that's common across most of his appearances?

although I have seen comics where it is mentioned, it is probably that we should look it up because not many people have read the specific appearances where it is shown and you are probably confused if you read the profile without the scans with that context

 

[Alonik]

I just wanted to point out that this was not just an ordinary multiverse. Tom Defalco in several comics even before this saga had already shown that the multidimensionality of the Multiverse was to have infinite higher dimensions, and he only works with blatant displays of higher infinities.

 

[Hellbeast]

For the Odin thing I know that depending on how long he's been without the Odinsleep he can be weaker or stronger

 

[ObberGobb]

Ok. So what needs to be agreed upon? Is everyone good with my proposal to remove 2-C and have Odin solid 2-A? Are we just discussing "holding back" vs. "varies" now?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Ok. So what needs to be agreed upon? Is everyone good with my proposal to remove 2-C and have Odin solid 2-A? Are we just discussing "holding back" vs. "varies" now?

Yes.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Yeah, but, I mean, should it be a discussion though? We never use "holding back" as a thing in our tiering of profiles. It's always been "insert tiering here" up to "insert higher tiering here" or "Varies, up to insert tier here at their peak".

 

[LordTracer]

We never use "holding back" as a thing in our tiering of profiles.

Actually, we do. Thor and Silver Surfer are two examples of this.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Actually, we do. Thor and Silver Surfer are two examples of this.

I know, they're the examples I was thinking of when referring to this:

"insert tiering here" up to "insert higher tiering here" .

(ignore the up to and it's the same thing.)

Holding back is not an inherent statistic in itself, but an implication or statement that allows the usage of a lower tier.

My point is, it's just a more specific version of the variable tier so it doesn't really make sense to discuss it like this, like two separate entries.

 

[Alonik]

Why are we going to consider 2-A when Tom DeFalco's infinite earths are explicitly High 1-B?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Why are we going to consider 2-A when Tom DeFalco's infinite earths are explicitly High 1-B?

Wait What-

 

[Alonik]

Let's explain it.

Tom DeFalco's multiverse cosmology is simply:

• Each Earth has its own fabric of reality. - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #390 July, 1994: Tom DeFalco and Mike Lackey
• There are structures that transcend the normal three dimensional space inside the earths. - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #398 March, 1995: Tom DeFalco
• His subspace is blatantly said to be at least Low 1-C - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #409 - February, 1996: Tom DeFalco
• Do note that his hyperspace/subspace was the home of the celestials at that time - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #400 - May, 1995: Tom DeFalco
• He also claims that the same home of the celestials was a transfinite realm with levels of infinity, Kubik also explicitly explains that there are infinite levels of infinite, and that the celestial in front of them was a being possessed of a transfinite level of power many order of magnitude beyond their own. - Fantastic Four Annual Vol 1 #26 - June, 1993: Tom DeFalco

Tom DeFalco's intentions from the start were very clear in using Asgard as a stepping stone to invade every other plane of reality, those planes would be the infinite planes of time and space, Seth himself states that his attack was to corrupt the transdimensional integrity of Yggdrasil that existed on every plane of reality.

Given that said In his cosmology and the whole Seth saga it was very explicit that his Multiverse was High 1-B due to having infinite levels of higher infinities in his subspace, and that Yggdrasil covered all these planes of existence.

Also, I think this will be evaluations from @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality @The_Impress @Confluctor

 

[Confluctor]

Why are we going to consider 2-A when Tom DeFalco's infinite earths are explicitly High 1-B?

It's not accepted as such. Heck we don't even accept infinite sized universe for marvel and DC apparently lol

 

[Alonik]

It's not accepted as such. Heck we don't even accept infinite sized universe for marvel and DC apparently lol

Just by old standards, not that we have any cosmology blog explicitly by Tom DeFalco saying otherwise, right? Now, if you could look at the brief explanation I gave about his cosmology up there, you would see that the old standard is wrong.

 

[Confluctor]

Personally, I don't want to touch anything related to the cosmology of Marvel and DC verses here anymore in here. So, you should probably ask someone else. Sorry

 

[ObberGobb]

Off the top of my head, the main two instances of 3-C for Odin are his fight against Jane Foster, where she held her own; and against Thanos, who tanked many of his attacks. Are there any others?

 

[Confluctor]

Tbf that era of Thanos deserves a 2C key.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Let's explain it.

Tom DeFalco's multiverse cosmology is simply:

• Each Earth has its own fabric of reality. - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #390 July, 1994: Tom DeFalco and Mike Lackey

Fair enough. Nothing we didn't already know though. This is kind of one of the most consistent things in all of marvel, what with the Spider-man 2099 reboots and all other things.

• There are structures that transcend the normal three dimensional space inside the earths. - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #398 March, 1995: Tom DeFalco

Incompatible with our tiering system unless that room is the size of Galaxies. Then it would just be evidence of High 3-A.

• His subspace is blatantly said to be at least Low 1-C - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #409 - February, 1996: Tom DeFalco

Sure, but you're arguing for High 1-B.

• Do note that his hyperspace/subspace was the home of the celestials at that time - Fantastic Four Vol 1 #400 - May, 1995: Tom DeFalco

This was probably what was meant when one of those staff members for the verse said the Celestials were actually Low 1-C. It's a shame that they weren't interested in elaborating.

• He also claims that the same home of the celestials was a transfinite realm with levels of infinity,

This was never stated.

• Kubik also explicitly explains that there are infinite levels of infinite, and that the celestial in front of them was a being possessed of a transfinite level of power many order of magnitude beyond their own. - Fantastic Four Annual Vol 1 #26 - June, 1993: Tom DeFalco

It's been discussed before and it's been decided that it probably shouldn't be considered relevant to the tiering system.

For one instance, it is mathematically wrong. Whether it's even numbers, whole numbers or natural numbers, their size in the degrees of infinity are all the same because their cardinality is the same. That is, you don't have to count to consider them to be superior to each other. Simple mapping will help you realize that they are all the same size.

Even putting them into power sets the way they did prove that they are the same level of infinity (that is, countable) since they are ordered into power sets which would make them ordinals which are not bigger, just ordered. Even infinite*infinite (or infinite sets of infinity) as depicted here or being transfinite levels of infinity beyond low 2-C (or rather, 2-A characters since they're about equal to MM and Beyonder who were affecting the multiverse) characters is still just 2-A.

Tom DeFalco's intentions from the start were very clear in using Asgard as a stepping stone to invade every other plane of reality, those planes would be the infinite planes of time and space,

A common misconception tbh. The stated planes aren't higher, or anything, they just exist in their own separate space-time continuum (unless proven otherwise).

However, the hyperspace is likened to a higher dimension. I'm neutral in regards to this scan, leaning closer to disagree. The planes of existence were never extrapolated on.

Seth himself states that his attack was to corrupt the transdimensional integrity of Yggdrasil that existed on every plane of reality.

So, looking up the definition of transdimensional I learned it can mean more than the three dimensions of space or being multidimensional, both of which are not enough to claim something is High 1-B.

Trans can mean beyond, but it can also mean across, the latter making more sense as Yggdrasil exists across every plane of reality. Not enough evidence to qualify for High 1-B here.

Also, I think this will be evaluations from @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality @The_Impress @Confluctor

You shouldn't tag staff. Only staff can do so.

In summary 2A is safer but I wouldn't be opposed to Low 1-C either. I disagree with High 1-B.

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone clarify why Zeus is the limiting factor in our current scaling chain?

 

[Antvasima]

@Confluctor @LordTracer @Firestorm808 @The_Impress

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Confluctor]

Can someone clarify why Zeus is the limiting factor in our current scaling chain?

Cos Zeus ******* sucks that's why

Jokes aside, skyfathers scale to each other - at least contextually and that's what we are going by too. Zeus has a lot of anti feats without a proper power mechanism like Odin.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would recommend sorting out the writers of the anti-feats and the "equal to others" statements so we have a gauge of what the majority is published.

I'll be looking into this respect thread's sources later.

 

[Confluctor]

Physically, Zeus like 3C most of the time

 

[Hellbeast]

Cos Zeus ******* sucks that's why

Maybe you suck

Jokes aside, skyfathers scale to each other - at least contextually and that's what we are going by too. Zeus has a lot of anti feats without a proper power mechanism like Odin.

He could prolly just get “3-C, possibly 2-A” I guess since he’s invariably treated as one of those

 

[LordTracer]

Cos Zeus ******* sucks that's why

If we’re talking Greek mythology Zeus, hell yes

 

[Firestorm808]

Godly Power Feats and Statements (WIP)

Zeus Panhellenios (Earth-616)/Appearances

marvel.fandom.com

• July 8, 1980 | Mark Gruenwald, Ralph Macchio | Thor Vol 1 300 | Can’t do shit to a Celestial
• July 26, 1988 | Peter B. Gillis | Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 1 | Dormammu states that he and Zeus are equals
• July 11, 1989 | Roy Thomas | Thor Annual Vol 1 14 | Is described as Odin’s equal
• June 18, 1991 | Jim Starlin | Infinity Gauntlet Vol 1 2 | Odin considers him a great power
• September 14, 2011 | Kieron Gillen | Journey into Mystery #627 | Shakes the World when he gets angry
• May 28, 2014 | Jim Starlin | Thanos Annual Vol 1 1 | Thanos considers him to be on the same level as some cosmic beings
• March 6, 2019 | Jim Zub, Mark Waid, Al Ewing | Avengers No Road Home Vol 1 4 | With help from Neptune (although since Zeus is by far the more powerful of the two he was probably doing the heavy lifting) he defeated Nyx at her full power and split her soul into three shards

 

[Confluctor]

Maybe you suck

He could prolly just get “3-C, possibly 2-A” I guess since he’s invariably treated as one of those

Possible compromise

If we’re talking Greek mythology Zeus, hell yes

No Zeus is good

 

[Confluctor]

Godly Power Feats and Statements

• July 8, 1980 | Mark Gruenwald, Ralph Macchio | Thor Vol 1 300 | Can’t do shit to a Celestial

What's the relevance?

• July 26, 1988 | Peter B. Gillis | Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 1 | Dormammu states that he and Zeus are equals

Only one usable imo

• July 11, 1989 | Roy Thomas | Thor Annual Vol 1 14 | Is described as Odin’s equal

That's what's causing the problem. Odin actually has feats but this guy...

• June 18, 1991 | Jim Starlin | Infinity Gauntlet Vol 1 2 | Odin considers him a great power

Statements like this should be disregarded immediately ngl. Have seen tier 2s call tier 3a "great powe"

• September 14, 2011 | Kieron Gillen | Journey into Mystery #627 | Shakes the World when he gets angry

Tier 6

• May 28, 2014 | Jim Starlin | Thanos Annual Vol 1 1 | Thanos considers him to be on the same level as some cosmic beings

Also usable

• March 6, 2019 | Avengers No Road Home Vol 1 4 | With help from Neptune (although since Zeus is by far the more powerful of the two he was probably doing the heavy lifting) he defeated Nyx at her full power and split her soul into three shards

Eh, didn't she get jobber or something? I will recheck

 

[Antvasima]

He could prolly just get “3-C, possibly 2-A” I guess since he’s invariably treated as one of those

I suppose that this might work, yes.

 

[LordTracer]

He could prolly just get “3-C, possibly 2-A” I guess since he’s invariably treated as one of those

I think that’d work.

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm good with that. It's pretty much what Hela has.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. What has been accepted here so far?

 

[CosmicWreck]

I am not sure. What has been accepted here so far?

3-C, possibly 2-A Zeus seems to be the general consensus.

Odin is to be declared a variable tier (seemingly starting at 3-C due to scaling to Jane Foster, though I would prefer we use the infinity fight in Thor issue 185 where he actually destroyed a galaxy than powerscaling since the fight against Jane wasn't very impressive feat wise, only affecting a couple of planets) up to 2-A using the Odinsleep as a mechanism, thus removing the possibly rating.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

a galaxy

it was galaxies according to the text and they threatened the universe

 

[CosmicWreck]

it was galaxies according to the text

True, I guess scaling to Thor/Jane is fine then.

and they threatened the universe

When was this stated? The only universal statements I remember from then was: Thor (mistakenly) thought infinity would destroy the universe but it was revealed he would just enslave it, Odin's questionable statement that the endless cosmos can't hold them both and them destroying space and time on an unknown scale.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Odin's questionable statement that the endless cosmos can't hold them both and them destroying space and time on an unknown scale

This one

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't understand how that scan gives Galaxy Odin.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I don't understand how that scan gives Galaxy Odin.

During the battle with infinity it showed a planet being destroyed and a galaxy being warped in conjunction with his narration though if Odin's statement is to be taken at face value it would be a 3-B feat, so it probably shouldn't be used.

This one

Which one? This '"insert object here" not being big enough for the both of us' isn't really a scalable feat. The space-time thing was kind of localized since we know for a fact the Earth was still more or less in tact.

 

[Eficiente]

I'm good with 2-A using legit reasons. But to note, I had my doubts with 2-C feats involving the 9 realms since I don't believe the space between them is that of the space bewteen universes in a multiverse, even if the realms are individually universes.

 

[Confluctor]

If 9 realms is unusable, then almost all of 2Cs of marvel needs restructuring

 

[Hellbeast]

Plus aren't we using a low-end for the Tier 2's of Marvel? Since Olympus and other world are tied to Ygg somehow