Marvel Comics: Infinite Dimensions, Oblivion & The Living Tribunal

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Unrelated to the argument of High 1-B vs 1-B current Multi-Eternity, this seems to suggest TLT > Oblivion, who is still subject to him. It is the only mention of both together I could find so far, but I will continue looking just in case.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as you know, I have worked harder than anybody else in this wiki to increase its accuracy.

However, it simply seems like a massive stretch for Galactus to jump tiers from Low 2-C to High 1-B, considering that we do not know if Al Ewing is referring to a multiverse of parallel universes, or a Hilbert Space level higher-dimensional structure.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why do you treat every single Marvel writer as having their stories as existing in bubbles disconnected from the rest of Marvel Comics? Al Ewing doesn't have to stop to explain things that have been established in previous comics, that would harm the storyline.

Regardless, he does not treat the 8th Multiverse as inferior to the 7th, and Eternity is its embodiment, so the entity is still High 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Azathoth

That is indeed the only mention of Oblivion as being inferior to the Living Tribunal. Eternity, Infinity and even Death have all been seen in the entity's presence, and responded to his authority, though never Oblivion. Oblivion seems to be notably disconnected from the Tribunal's Cosmic underlings.

 

[Antvasima]

Not all of them, no, but most writers tend to use extremely different standards, and are either very ignorant about the established stories and concepts of other writers, or simply do not care if they contradict them. As Walter Simonson almost said: "Continuity is a good tool, but a poor master".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matt

That does not necessarily make it untrue, though.

Also, while not related directly to Oblivion, TLT confirms that the void where he has no face is nothingness, which seems as if it would make Oblivion embody the head he lacks(?) unlike most others, who are split from the three concepts his other heads represent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"That does not necessarily make it untrue, though."

I don't get this argument.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"That does not necessarily make it untrue, though."

I don't get this argument.

It is not necessarily untrue because, if it is all we have to go on, Oblivion not showing up very often around the Tribunal does not disprove that he is subservient.

 

[Antvasima]

Actually, the Tribunal heavily implied that the cosmic entity The Stranger used to be its fourth face, before splitting him off.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also does anyone know who the Beyonders are killing on the far right?

 

[Antvasima]

The In-Betweener.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually, the Tribunal heavily implied that the cosmic entity The Stranger used to be its fourth face, before splitting him off.

I more meant the void where his face once was as opposed to his actual fourth face, since he seems to imply that actual nothingness is there as opposed to just lacking a face, now.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The In-Betweener.

Thanks. I've been checking scans from the build up to Secret Wars and that one confused me.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he only mentioned that Eternity, Death, Chaos, and Order were a part of his being, and that the Stranger used to be.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The thing is, I don't think there's a single evidence in-comic that Oblivion is tied to the Multiverse like the Tribunal and the others are. He isn't mentioned as being tied to his faces, nor is he ever present when the Tribunal interacts with the other Abstracts. The only evidence of the contrary we do have is the Handbook.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am fine with a 1-A Oblivion, and a High 1-B Tribunal.

 

[Antvasima]

However, we must explain within their profiles why the Tribunal is not scaled from Oblivion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That would be good for me.

But perhaps for now we should update the Abstracts' profiles, and leave Oblivion's and TOAA's under revision?

I remember that we once did that to the Undertale profiles, we can do that with some of the Abstracts we are uncertain on.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Quick question, though. Looking back, doesn't the Quasar run establish Oblivion as an aspect of the multiverse? Since Death is treated as his sister and Quasar mentions the four entities being the four points of the cosmological compass.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But perhaps for now we should update the Abstracts' profiles, and leave Oblivion's and TOAA's under revision?

This is a good idea until things are solidified.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should leave the OAA out of it for the time being. The other abstracts should be fine, and the Molecule Man as well.

However, I am extremely doubtful of a High 1-B Galactus. He has not demonstrated anywhere near that scale of power within Al Ewing's stories.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, make sure to only use the scans that I and Azathoth accepted to justify the statistics, not the ones that DontTalk rejected.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth Technically, yes, although the version that fought Infinity was later revealed as an M-Body, and it contradicts his first appearance.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth Technically, yes, although the version that fought Infinity was later revealed as an M-Body, and it contradicts his first appearance.

I'm probably missing something, but which part contradicts his first appearance? Death as his sister or?

 

[Antvasima]

The part that he is tied to the multiverse, rather than beyond existence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I was under the impression that did not mean he was tied to the multiverse in the exact same way as Infinity, Eternity, etc, but merely that he was a conceptual aspect of it. Similar to how in Chaos War, Eternity describes Chaos King as the void against which he is defined, and how they are basically two sides of the same coin. If Mikaboshi is an aspect of Oblivion, then logically the same could be said for him, but on a greater scale. Otherwise Mikaboshi being tied to Eternity wouldn't make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The first storyline in which Oblivion appeared treated it as beyond existence and the Multiverse (Iceman), the second made it Infinity's opposite (Quasar), though Quasar #37 revealed that the fight happened between M-Bodies, so it wasn't the real full Multiversal Oblivion. The Chaos War treated the Chaos King as opposite to the Multiversal Eternity, and Thor Annual revealed the Chaos King to be one tiny fragment of Oblivion.

So Oblivion's comic history has way more evidence to him being beyond the other abstracts, than equal.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So Oblivion's comic history has way more evidence to him being beyond the other abstracts, than equal.

That has been my position since the very beginning. I even said Chaos King = Multi-Eternity. Oblivion being a concept of the greater multiverse does not mean he has to be equal to the other Abstracts. Just that he is another force of reality. Mikaboshi and Oblivion represent the same thing, and Mikaboshi and Multi-Eternity are opposites. Oblivion should represent the same thing on a higher level of reality.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, the thing is, Mikaboshi is the void of the Multiverse in its origin, Oblivion is the void beyond the Multiverse. That is the key difference.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, but they are the same concept. That is what I am saying. Oblivion is the same opposing force on a larger scale. He is a more all encompassing idea of a void.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, and while one is the void of the High 1-B Multiverse, the other is the void beyond all conceptualizations.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Where is it stated he is the void beyond all conceptualizations in relation to other Abstracts?

Also I can't remember, but did we ever address why Oblivion can't just erase everything instantly if he is actually superior to the Tribunal by an infinite degree?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Return now to non-being... Feel the consciousness draining from you. Fell all that you are stripped away... Consumed. You are beyond loneliness. Beyond pain. Beyond even the memory of what you once were. Oblivion is all that -- and more. For unlike you... I have consciousness of what I am. I feel every ripple in the sea of eternal emptiness... Every ebb in the tide of eternal nihility. Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing."

"Again and again, the Universe is born, struggles for life and independence -- Then falls once more into my gaping maw! This world of illusion I have created here is only a reflection of the world beyond! All life is a dream! All Creation is populated by phantoms. Everything springs from Oblivion's lions -- And everything returns to Oblivion's womb!"

"Before Creation was... I was. Where Creation ends... I wait. I am the Void. The breath between life and death. Between death and rebirth. The Nothing -- From which The Everything springs.

+ Mikaboshi being one fraction of Oblivion's infinity while also being equal to Multi-Eternity.

And I think that's called "The Plot".

 

[Antvasima]

Going by the above quote, he also does not need to erase everything. It comes to him eventually anyway.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Aren't the first two him speaking to Iceman? Also, I don't think that says he is beyond their conceptualization, though it does say he's infinitely beyond them.

@Ant

His entire speech in TMT Annual seems to suggest he desires the end of existence, and wishes it would come sooner. Though he constantly seems to try this through indirect methods as opposed to just ending it. This may also be due to the fact it seems to retcon his entire original personality, in which existence ending was simply a thing that happened, but Oblivion desired some form of feeling and kinship. In TMT Annual, he gleefully awaits the destruction of everything and tries to speed up the process. He also seems to imply there's a barrier between him and the multiverse?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He doesn't imply there's a barrier from my reading of it...

Perhaps it would be best to do like the Warhammer 40,000 profiles and showcase both possibilities? "At least High 1-B, posssibly 1-A"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Still, he might simply not invade the Multiverse and destroy it one-shot because the Man Upstairs wouldn't like it very much.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matt

"Ah but this! If the barricade breaks...if Scrier and the other finally collide-- Well then, the Chaos War was merely a prelude, and the annihilation of all universes is just a heartbeat away."

That would likely be best.

 

[Antvasima]

The OAA protecting it is a possibility, yes.

Regardless, I suppose that "At least High 1-B. Possibly 1-A" is an idea.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, I think that Lifebringer Galactus should remain Unknown until the storyline concludes. Given the nature of the Cosmic Hierarchy now, he is hard to quantify. If The Logos is portrayed as / stated to be equal to the Old Tribunal in the followings issues, then we'll see.