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Marvel Comics - Cosmology Upgrade

Antvasima said:
Thank you, but if the Negative Zone is truly intended to be a High 1-B structure, how come that even its most powerful inhabitants, such as Annihilus and Blastaar are considerably less powerful than many earthly superheroes?

Also, in Jonathan Hickman's version of the cosmology, the entire multiverse could be completely destroyed simply by bumping all of the 4-dimensional universes into each other.

Wouldn't it be better to use different cosmologies for different editorial eras, such as a Lee/Kirby era, a Jim Shooter era, a Tom DeFalco era, and a Joe Quesada era?
Click to expand...
Idrc overall, but instead of doing it per author, which leaves out too many important stories and cosmic structures, why not separate them like this;

60s - 1999: original seventh multiverse
1999 - 2004/5: second seventh multiverse
2004/2005 - 2015: third seventh multiverse
2016 - present: eight multiverse

The seventh multiverse got rebooted at least 3 times at the top of my head, once but Reed and then by Genis. Reed's wasn't very different, but genis' was meant to be extremely different than the original since Eternity's son became the new eternity and replaced the old one. That explains the myriad of differences in the latter part of 00s and up to mid 2010s
 
Alonik said:
In the case of Blaastar and Annihilus this is usually outlier or plot mechanics like Superman going into the sphere of the gods and beating the crap out of Darkseid. Blaastar since his origin was already a threat to several 'universes' of the Negative Zone, and in Annihilation guide he is even comparable with some abstract like Death. There is also the feat that has even been calculated on this wiki by Amelie IIRC, of Blaastar surviving the Big Bang with a lowbal that the big bang was only 3-A if my memory serves me right.
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No, it is a matter of consistency of portrayal. As far as I recall, the Negative Zone has almost consistently been portrayed as an anti-matter mirror image of a regular universe, with every single one of its inhabitants not remotely displaying any remarkable power levels of the scale that you wish to impose on them. A forgotten and never again referenced throwaway line in a single comic book does not undo all of the much greater consistency of its other appearances.
Alonik said:
At the beginning of the New Avengers Event it actually sounds like Hickman is talking about 4-D universes, but as the story unfolds he starts talking about how realms like the Negative Zone were affected, and even quotes the infinite stacked planes that exist in the negative zone, and overall he doesn't see the incursions as 4-dimensional universes, but rather side-by-side at least high 1-B Multiverses being blown up.
  1. Hickman's still has the logic of the stacked planes of existence in the negative zone, therefore his multiverse has infinite higher dimensions - Avengers Vol 5 #25 - January 22, 2014
  2. Multiverses stacked side-by-side - New Avengers Vol 3 #15 - March 19, 2014
And we have plenty of evidence of these stacked planes in the negative zone being a hierarchy of planes that inferiorizes the bottom floor as akin to fiction, since Hickman is just borrowing another writer's cosmology.

The sandbox is separated like this but the way I divided it, I haven't seen any striking difference yet for not connecting some cosmologies.
Click to expand...
You seem to be wildly speculating, given that nothing remotely directly implying higher infinities was mentioned within the scans that you mentioned, and that is not at all a good basis for inferring an infinite degrees of infinity.

All that we have is the author accidentally writing "parallell multiverses" instead of "parallell universes", which much of the entire point of the story in question was really about.
 
Confluctor said:
Idrc overall, but instead of doing it per author, which leaves out too many important stories and cosmic structures, why not separate them like this;

60s - 1999: original seventh multiverse
1999 - 2004/5: second seventh multiverse
2004/2005 - 2015: third seventh multiverse
2016 - present: eight multiverse

The seventh multiverse got rebooted at least 3 times at the top of my head, once but Reed and then by Genis. Reed's wasn't very different, but genis' was meant to be extremely different than the original since Eternity's son became the new eternity and replaced the old one. That explains the myriad of differences in the latter part of 00s and up to mid 2010s
Click to expand...
Don't forget Mikaboshi.

Anyway, that is a possibility, but given that there were considerably more drastic changes between the Shooter, DeFalco, and Quesada eras, for example, I would prefer to divide it by editorial intent rather than more clumsy and indistinctive in-story rationalisations.
 
Right so,
60s - 1999
1999 - 2004/2005
2004/2005 - 2010
2010 - 2015
2015 - present (8th)

Honestly, I feel like there are some probably from an earlier point too. I mean why take a weird measure based on stupidity of writers/editors instead of canon explanations?

Also what are some of the biggest things that don't fit well between the two editors you mentioned?

Quesada is a different case because he is dealing with a different version of the seventh multiverse.
 
Antvasima said:
No, it is a matter of consistency of portrayal. As far as I recall, the Negative Zone has almost consistently been portrayed as an anti-matter mirror image of a regular universe, with every single one of its inhabitants not remotely displaying any remarkable power levels of the scale that you wish to impose on them. A forgotten and never again referenced throwaway line in a single comic book does not undo all of the much greater consistency of its other appearances.

You seem to be wildly speculating, given that nothing remotely directly implying higher infinities was mentioned within the scans that you mentioned, and that is not at all a good basis for inferring an infinite degrees of infinity.

All that we have is the author accidentally writing "parallell multiverses" instead of "parallell universes", which much of the entire point of the story in question was really about.
Click to expand...
In my sandbox there is enough evidence that these stacked planes in the Negative Zone that Hickman quoted are actually higher-dimensional infinities, you will even find this in any editor-in-chief era, since Jack Kirby and Stan Lee.

But I guess whatever, if anyone bring 100 scans talking about it you won't read it or you will just ignore it and suggest doing exactly what I did in the sandbox... Something that i did since last year 🤷‍♂️
 
Confluctor said:
Right so,
60s - 1999
1999 - 2004/2005
2004/2005 - 2010
2010 - 2015
2015 - present (8th)

Honestly, I feel like there are some probably from an earlier point too. I mean why take a weird measure based on stupidity of writers/editors instead of canon explanations?

Also what are some of the biggest things that don't fit well between the two editors you mentioned?

Quesada is a different case because he is dealing with a different version of the seventh multiverse.
Click to expand...
If there are no clear distinctions between the various multiversal destruction events, whereas there definitely are clear distinctions based on different editorial agendas, the latter option seems much more logical and truthful/honest to use as a basis.
 
Alonik said:
In my sandbox there is enough evidence that these stacked planes in the Negative Zone that Hickman quoted are actually higher-dimensional infinities, you will even find this in any editor-in-chief era, since Jack Kirby and Stan Lee.

But I guess whatever, if anyone bring 100 scans talking about it you won't read it or you will just ignore it and suggest doing exactly what I did in the sandbox... Something that i did since last year 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
I read the scans that you presented to me within the quoted post above, and as far as I could tell, Hickman clearly greatly contradicted previous portrayals of the scale of the Marvel multiverse. However, if you have further evidence from his own stories, please feel free to show it to me.
 
Antvasima said:
If there are no clear distinctions between the various multiversal destruction events, whereas there definitely are clear distinctions based on different editorial agendas, the latter option seems much more logical and truthful/honest to use as a basis.
Click to expand...
But there is a difference tho. The cosmology post chaos war seems different than the one built before it, for example.

But again, what are the biggest contradictions between shooter and defalco? 10 contradictions should be alright. More is something to consider tho.
 
Well, as far as I recall, DeFalco mainly retconned the Beyonder, and significantly upgraded the various other cosmic entities and the multiverse as a whole via both the explorations of Kosmos and Kubik, Mark Gruenwald's Quasar stories, and the Doctor Strange stories that explored transfinite numbers and laid out a basic schematic structure for the Marvel Multiverse.

However, the Shooter era admittedly also mentioned an infinite number of infinities during The Secret Wars II story arc, so the big difference was between the Joe Quesada era and everything else.

Prior to that, the various editors-in-chief at least usually tried their best to be consistent with what had been established previously, whereas Quesada almost had a Dan Didio level sensationalistic approach of not giving a damn about if stories made coherent sense or not, so I am technically fine with a division between the classic and modern era of Marvel Comics, if you find that as a reasonable suggestion.
 
I mean defalco and shooter differences in terms of actual cosmological structure are kinda minimal at best, not as drastic as one would assume. Quesada is different cause different incarnation of seventh multiverse. Problem solved.
 
Okay. As long as we make a distinction between the Quesada era and everything that came before it, I am technically mostly fine with it, regardless if you want to call the distinction "Classic | Modern" or something else.
 
Hopefully, yes. The cosmology of the classic era is explicitly far more powerful.
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
I don't think it was such a big change, Hercules restored it exactly to how it was before, undo in the process all the damage caused by the Chaos Wars, keep in mind that Athena's Plan was to create a new world but Hercules refused and exactly restore the entire Multiverse to its previous form

Click to expand...
It's still a rebirth of sort, which can answer some questions regarding consistency. So, 2004/2005 seventh multi feats would be valid for this, but the stuff from 2010 - 2015 won't be valid for the previous ones, if that makes sense.
 
LoganKroos said:
yes, the pre retcon Beyonder cosmology is much more powerful, he was practically a tier 0
Click to expand...
He was retconned though, so we cannot use anything that happened after said retcon, and only had evidence for Low 1-A, if I remember correctly.
 
Confluctor said:
It's still a rebirth of sort, which can answer some questions regarding consistency. So, 2004/2005 seventh multi feats would be valid for this, but the stuff from 2010 - 2015 won't be valid for the previous ones, if that makes sense.
Click to expand...
Well, Reed Richards remade the Marvel multiverse with the Ultimate Nullifier in November 2001, and Joe Quesada took over as editor-in-chief for Marvel Comics some time in the year 2000, so I suppose that you could use that as a breaking point if you really want to.

marvel.fandom.com

Fantastic Four Vol 3 49

Featured Characters: Fantastic Four ⏴ Mr. Fantastic ⏵ ⏴ Invisible Woman ⏵ ⏴ Human Torch ⏵ ⏴ Thing ⏵ Supporting Characters: ⏴ Franklin Richards ⏵ ⏴ Marvel Girl (Ceased to exist) ⏴ Galactus ⏵ (Resurrection) ⏴ Uatu the Watcher ⏵ ⏴ Saturnyne ⏵ ⏴ Namorita ⏵ (Death) (Resurrection) Antagonists: ⏴...
marvel.fandom.com marvel.fandom.com

I would prefer if we are more honest with our visitors though, and just admit that it is because Joe Quesada took the company in a very different direction.
 
Last edited:
Yes. I suppose so.

Can you link to the Marvel wiki comic book entry in which Genis destroyed the Marvel multiverse please?
 
I have a question, cosmology marvel is split into classic and modern, right?
and when will it be corrected.?
 
I do not know, but if any genuinely knowledgeable members, including Confluctor, would be willing to help me out with research for such a project, feel free to send me a PM.
 
Confluctor said:
Captain marvel vol 5 6 - 8 iirc
Click to expand...
I checked through issue #6, and the word "multiverse" was only used in the first page editorial synopsis as far as I noticed. Within the story itself, the word "universe" was repeatedly used.
 
Antvasima said:
I do not know, but if any genuinely knowledgeable members, including Confluctor, would be willing to help me out with research for such a project, feel free to send me a PM.
Click to expand...
I don't have much time to help with cosmology stuff

Antvasima said:
I checked through issue #6, and the word "multiverse" was only used in the first page editorial synopsis as far as I noticed. Within the story itself, the word "universe" was repeatedly used.
Click to expand...
The whole story, all the way from vol 4 is leading up to this big destruction. Universe and multiverse are used as synonyms often.
 
Confluctor said:
The whole story, all the way from vol 4 is leading up to this big destruction. Universe and multiverse are used as synonyms often.
Click to expand...
It seems far too uncertain to use in any case, as extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We cannot bump Genis-vell to tier Low 1-A without being absolutely certain.
 
Confluctor said:
I don't have much time to help with cosmology stuff
Click to expand...
Well, there is no hurry. I would just like us to split Marvel's cosmology into the classic and modern era eventually.
 
Antvasima said:
It seems far too uncertain to use in any case, as extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We cannot bump Genis-vell to tier Low 1-A without being absolutely certain.
Click to expand...
I am not really here to argue semantics or upgrades or whatever, just pointing out what was actually happening throughout the story
 
Okay. I am just saying that if there were serious contradictions in what was said, it seems too inconsistent to use.
 
That would be great. I am quite busy for scan collecting for a while, so if someone else can, that would be great.
 
Thank you for helping out. There were definitive contradictions there though.
 
Wouldn't the Negative Zone being a place that can control everything and the concept of dimensionality itself support 1-A?
 
LoganKroos said:
depends on context, if it's just the end of that hierarchy it would be High1B, if it's beyond that hierarchy and you see it as something to handle then it would be 1A
Click to expand...
if the concept of dimensionality is just one of the many concepts that the negative zone controls then it would be the perfect evidence for 1A
 
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