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Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions
- Thread starter ObberGobb
- Start date
Excellence616
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Are there anti feats for 1-A?
Yeah, Abstracts would just scale higher into 1-A
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Agreed. Even characters like Pre-Shaman Nate Grey have feats of significantly affecting the Astral Plane, and Nate Grey blatantly caps at Celestial Level (Considering what Asheema said in Heroes Reborn: The Return, which essentially capped every mortal prior to Franklin that showed up as lesser than Celestial Level)
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Was this "divinity" ever elabored upon? Not sure if this is something that is a valid justification
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- Thread starter
- #165
Not really to my knowledge, but he does say that he can make his corporeal form transcend dimensions
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Wait, hold on...
I feel like this should be discussed more... you're suggesting that Thor should go from 3-C normally and High 3-A at peak (no amps), to High 3-A normally and 1-A at peak (no amps)? So many chararacters scale to base Thor's 3-C rating... this is essentially an upgrade for all 3-C's to High 3-A and High 3-A's (like Sentry, Ultron, and Base Thanos) to 1-A.
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Aren’t characters supposed to vary in power canonically due to TOAA’s influence over the entire cosmology?
TOAA, as the representation of all writers, leads to variable interpretations of characters. For instance, Thor could be considered at most 4-B, Low 2-C, or even 1-A depending on the writer. Why don’t we reflect this characteristic in character profiles with a classification like this?
Thor
Tier: Varies (due to TOAA’s influence), generally Galaxy level (most consistent level according to the majority of writers) up to Outerverse level (his most powerful depiction).
TOAA, as the representation of all writers, leads to variable interpretations of characters. For instance, Thor could be considered at most 4-B, Low 2-C, or even 1-A depending on the writer. Why don’t we reflect this characteristic in character profiles with a classification like this?
Thor
Tier: Varies (due to TOAA’s influence), generally Galaxy level (most consistent level according to the majority of writers) up to Outerverse level (his most powerful depiction).
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Do you have a scan for that?
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That was agreed upon in a major CRT made by Ultima for the Marvel Comics cosmology.
Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)
Hi all. Glad to see you all here after the previous thread. As the title suggests, this is a continuation of my ongoing revisions of Marvel's Cosmics, this time tackling the tiering of the Omniversal Abstracts. After this one, I plan to make a Part 2.5, which will deal with fixing... everything...
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- Thread starter
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What wording would you prefer for 1-A? I just really don't think "at peak" should be used for High 3-A, but I agree that it presents a problem for characters who theoretically scale to peak Thor. Like personally I wouldn't have a problem with Thanos scaling to Skyfather level anyway but I won't get into that. I also don't like the "inner life essence" wording we have now.
Also now I think that the Hercules infinite heavens feat might be 1-A. If that's true and people agree with my interpretation of it, then idk where that would leave High 3-A Heralds.
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Slowly and ineroxably everyone in Marvel comics will scale to tier 1, even basic human beings
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Why? I'm not proposing changing any of the current standards on how we deal with Herald scaling.
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Technically they would because the Ideaverse being a reality all Humans have significant control over, but that's neither here nor there.
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What topics are there to be discussed? Basically, my current proposals are:
- Make Yggdrasil scale to 1-A for encompassing all realities, which is supported by some other statements for Skyfather tiers
- Make Skyfathers scale to this from Odin and Atlas, all characters currently recognized as scaling above them will just upscale higher into 1-A
- Change Thor's keys to "3-C to High 3-A normally, up to 1-A at peak and with God Blast | 1-A | 1-A, up to High 1-A via absorption and God Blast | High 1-A"
- Potentially change Hercules to "3-C to High 3-A normally, up to 1-A at peak" due to his Axis Mundi feat
- Skyfathers scaling to all realities would potentially mess with Abstract scaling, as it would theoretically mean they scale to infinite Uni Eternities
- Changing "at peak" to be 1-A for Thor potentially causing issues with characters who scale to peak Thor, like Thanos and Ultron
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Wait, could you explain why the Heavens are 1-A? They're just among the lower mystic realms, all of which are High 1-B.
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- Thread starter
- #179
Basically, when Atlas lifts the Heavens, he is linked to the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek incarnation of Yggdrasil. Yggdrasil is just the Norse form of a structure that takes a different form for all beliefs. So I think that when Hercules takes Atlas' burden of lifting the Heavens, it would basically be the same as lifting Yggdrasil. I could be wrong in my interpretation of this though.
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Seems right, I'm always happy to see an upgrade for Hulk, now I just have to wait for High 1-A, sooner or later my dream will become reality
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- #181
Right now I'm only proposing that characters with direct Yggdrasil feats of their own (i.e. Thor, Storm, and Hercules. Maybe Enchantress) scale to 1-A
Excellence616
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Make sense.
That feat is used as Infinite LS for Heralds... Heaven should be a God realm just like Asgard and Olympus
Thanos and Ultron scales to High 3-A Thor for being one of the strongest herald tier characters.
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What do you think should be done about this?
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But they scale to Thor's peak, which is being proposed as 1-A, unless you give Thor 2 different physical peaks.
Excellence616
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The issue is that Silver Surfer (Post Annihilation) and Champion of the Universe (with Power Gem) scales to Thanos.
So they wouldn't scale to Peak Thor. Since 1-A isn't something Thor can just reach easily. They would just remain High 3-A
I think we should give Thor varies
Varies, usually 3-C to High 3-A, 1-A at peak and with God Blast
Since Thor canonically holds back massively.
It's just like Hulk situation. At a time, High 3-A (2-C then) was once his peak. That changed when he became High 1-B
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Not crazy about Loki or Enchantress scaring.
And remind me again why Ygg scales to the full 1-A universe and not just High 1-B?
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The true extent of Yggdrasil is constantly referred to as being the entirety of Creation in quite a few depictions of it, including in recent comics. So 1-A should be a decent lowball if we don't want to assume it's High 1-A.
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Was this ever addressed as a reason for High 1-A (it's from Galactus's profile as a justification for his Devouring being High 1-A):
Capable of consuming the Galactus Seed, a piece of the Multiversal Eternity itself,[52] considered his "eternal soul"[53] and "the heart of everything,"[54] which gave birth to Yggdrasil[55] when planted.
Capable of consuming the Galactus Seed, a piece of the Multiversal Eternity itself,[52] considered his "eternal soul"[53] and "the heart of everything,"[54] which gave birth to Yggdrasil[55] when planted.
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Considering there are multiple points where Galactus and the Phoenix Force were treated as comparable equals despite Phoenix's wildly varying portrayals (like seriously, even the Avatars have a good amount High 1-A feats/scaling), I don't doubt Galactus can do that.
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Me neither, but the feat indicates scaling between Yggdrasil and Multi-Eternity
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So, does Phoenix Force scale above Uni Eternity with those High 1-A feats? Abstract scaling feels weird to me since there are so many feats of characters that logically should be well below Uni Abstracts doing things on a Multiversal scale, like the feats I've collected in this thread.
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A genuinely good question. I've heard Ultima plans to upgrade even the Phoenix Avatars to High 1-A so there is obviously some truth that some characters may actually end up High 1-A from Otherworld, which is consistently throughout all of Multiversal/Complete Eternity.
Rachel defeats Nekron, who Merlyn was too afraid to confront directly, who scales to creating the Otherworld. A fusion of Rachel and Nightmare was bested by a Franklin who canonically wasn't Celestial Level yet, as it's a thing that Franklin's powers get stronger over time [shown more explicitly during his interactions with his future Grandfather Nathaniel and Agatha] , and this was at the very least months before Heroes Reborn: The Return happened
The funny thing most people forgot was that Fury was stated by the Captain Britains Corps as capable of ending the Omniverse during his fight with MJJ, so they'd just be straight up High 1-A regardless of the Environmental Hax. Which scales to a few people due to supremacy Mutant statements for certain characters, which then would scale to a few others as well.
I could genuinely go on and on with this as there would be a lot to cover.
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Do you know where that would leave Uni Abstracts? I feel like they are kinda getting left in the dust lol.
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They do suffer a lot from the Worf Effect, that is true.
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Btw, forgot to comment on this subject but I'm not crazy about changing Thor's current High 3-A "peak" due to Thanos and Ultron currently scaling to that peak.
Though in Thanos's case he actually has some Skyfather/Galactus level scaling of his own so he could possibly be upgraded if Thor's base is (Ultron, not so much)
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I would be in support of Thanos scaling to Skyfathers honestly. Like he's fought pretty well against Odin and Odinforce Thor, and could protect himself from attacks by Galactus and Omega (although he is explicitly not comparable to them). But yeah, Ultron definitely not. He's also stated to be able to kill the Phoenix Force, and I think fought a Phoenix Avatar at one point? But apparently a big Phoenix upgrade is in the works so I guess that's not relevant. I feel like that's a thread for another time though.
If you don't like the wording of "at peak," what would you prefer?
Excellence616
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Thanos scaling to 1-A at peak makes sense.
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Does he have a Varies mechanic though?
