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Marisa vs Asriel
- Thread starter Eseseso
- Start date
- 15,439
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Not going to lie but on the page it's literally just this
Subjective Reality (Sheep You Want to Count)
Thankfully we have the CRT where it was added, where it says this
Sheep You Want to Count is Subjective Reality, which... works a bit strangely. Essentially, the description of the card implies it works by rendering the current conflict (the 'stage' in gameplay terms) a dream which the user then wakes up from, thus making the fight not real and as though it never actually happened. As Marisa has this card in her standard equipment and Doremy is the character from which this ability was copied, this should be passive for both of them.
The scan is dead, and thankfully we have these two ones to explain what it does.
I still don't see how that saves her from EE. It only seems to instantly end the thing as if it's a dream, and thus being a bootleg LOADing. However, doesn't seem to passively end the fight when Marisa is about to lose, only when the fight ends, which there is a hard pass as it has no feat whatsoever to deal with EE, let alone a fundamental level one.
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The card on the wiki literally says as soon as the card is obtained, the fight is over. Done.
(also using TVTropes for your sources really doesnt give it credit. All it does is just give a description of the tropes so that someone can easily understand it.)
the whole thing of it not being able to be equipped by default is also a gameplay restriction, blatantly so. As soon as the fight starts, she pulls it out, and the fight is over. Done. I cannot possible see how it would be a "bootleg LOAD", its literally just a stage/fight skip. There is no SAVE/LOAD here
So uh-
(also using TVTropes for your sources really doesnt give it credit. All it does is just give a description of the tropes so that someone can easily understand it.)
the whole thing of it not being able to be equipped by default is also a gameplay restriction, blatantly so. As soon as the fight starts, she pulls it out, and the fight is over. Done. I cannot possible see how it would be a "bootleg LOAD", its literally just a stage/fight skip. There is no SAVE/LOAD here
So uh-
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So Marisa just passively "skips" the fight? How does this even translate here, it doesn't even say she wins or anything.
I hope you realize that this isn't winning though. Like how does it even work? What even happens to Asriel if he's "skipped over" or something.
(Plus what stops him from LOADing back).
- 2,240
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Ok, let me summarize everything before i take a small break from this
Ability Cards (including Sheep You Want to Count) are Standard Equipment for Marisa
The effect works as soon as Marisa has it in her possession (which she already has, so it automatically activates at the start of the fight)
It works in game as such- you skip an encounter entirely, so not only are past events rendered as a dream, and it prevents future events from happening as well (because they arent real)
How does Azzy LOAD back from that? She basically renders this entire fight nonexistent purely by starting it, and i would really have a hard time of thinking of ANY means of Azzy countering it
Ability Cards (including Sheep You Want to Count) are Standard Equipment for Marisa
The effect works as soon as Marisa has it in her possession (which she already has, so it automatically activates at the start of the fight)
It works in game as such- you skip an encounter entirely, so not only are past events rendered as a dream, and it prevents future events from happening as well (because they arent real)
How does Azzy LOAD back from that? She basically renders this entire fight nonexistent purely by starting it, and i would really have a hard time of thinking of ANY means of Azzy countering it
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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Did we seriously not add her tanking EE & Conceptual Erasure to her profile yet
This fight would be a landslide victory for Marisa if the profiles were actually up to date lmao. We found that like 2 years ago.
Really wish they didn’t lift that discussion rule lmao. At the least I hope results don’t end up on profiles cause it’ll be work later removing them.
This fight would be a landslide victory for Marisa if the profiles were actually up to date lmao. We found that like 2 years ago.
Really wish they didn’t lift that discussion rule lmao. At the least I hope results don’t end up on profiles cause it’ll be work later removing them.
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No ok just give me the clip of how the ability works which is NOT a Touhou Wiki screenshot, because this entire thing feels super sus and your explanation isn't even giving me an actual answer.
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To be fair tanking concept erasure isn't the same as tanking Info 2 EE, and viceversa.
It's not like people will be spamming Touhou fights,
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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You could compare it to like supplanting a reality over the current one. Using the card means everything that happened within the stage, and anything that will happen in it, was just a dream that you awake from, completing it and moving on.
Azzy has no resistance to something like that.
- 15,439
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Are people just going to ignore me and not giving me an actual answer? This is very annoying and pretty much makes me think y'all are just very, very biased towards Marisa rn.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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Info EE would also be resisted on the profiles due to how Touhou characters regen work, so it would be another thing they’d resist… if the profiles were finished.
Like I said, I wish the change hadn’t been undone. Touhou on wiki rn is maybe like 10% or less of where it should be.
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I just mentioned that I was going to be taking a break to cool off
Besides, Pikmin is getting to it. Please cool your jets
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but no.
High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, et cetera. For any aspect to qualify, destruction of that aspect must cause erasure of the character in some form and it must be shown that the character cannot exist without that fundamental aspect existing as well; in addition it must not be something that would ordinarily be restored by regenerating body, mind, or soul. As such, type 3 concepts must be evaluated with care and aspects which are not sufficiently expanded upon to make a judgement will not to qualify.
Note: For High-Godly Regeneration, be sure to specify which aspect(s) the characters with this ability have been shown to regenerate from within their profile pages. For example: "High-Godly; Plot. Returned from having their Narrative Structure erased."
Basically you need feats to regenerate from also other aspects, currently here surviving being erased on a Concept level won't save you from being erased on a Plot or Info level, and also viceversa.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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I don’t think you read my message correctly, I was saying a resistance to info EE would be added due to how they’re regen works… as it would include informational regen… but the profiles aren’t finished yet. you’re not bursting a bubble lmao.
Like I said, there was a reason we had that rule lol.
If you want footage of the ability card, look up “touhou 18.5 all ability cards”, there’s a playlist with all of them and their functions, sheep you want to count is in the description as one you can pick.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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The Touhou wiki screenshot you are talking about is the translation of the in-game description of the card, it’s not like a random wiki screenshot lmao
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Alright, im back (not that i want to be anyways)
Also
Styrm, thats rich of you to say when you literally tried to use TVTROPES as a scan. Not only is that a pretty unreliable source of information- it would provide nothing for a versus standpoint
also
hypocritical of you to say that about a TW wiki screenshot when you used the same thing to try and debunk SYWTC.
Good job
Also
Styrm, thats rich of you to say when you literally tried to use TVTROPES as a scan. Not only is that a pretty unreliable source of information- it would provide nothing for a versus standpoint
also
hypocritical of you to say that about a TW wiki screenshot when you used the same thing to try and debunk SYWTC.
Good job
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Yeah, but wasnt like that an overtime effect as a part of the battle?
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I interpreted your thing as something else, aye.
I am fully aware of what the Touhou Wiki does, my concern is just using the description without any visual showcase.
Lil' bro, I just used the best I could find.
Anyway, the thing seems to be this:
Y'all are just blatantly lying of it being passive because:
- It's an item card, aka it needs to be selected to be used. It's not even a passive one according to the game.
- It only "skips" the fight, and the game isn't even sure if Marisa won, as it uses even a "?" when saying that the stage is cleared.
- You kept spamming over and over and didn't even explain how is that a win anyways. What happens to Asriel? Does Marisa just... flies over him or something lol.
Only in the Full Power tho. SBA (and this thread) makes him start in base.
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Please do not "lil' bro me".
Anyways
- Marisa would already have it, because her ability cards are standard equipment. Why do you seem to gloss over this?
-Not to mention, because its already IN her possession because of SBA, and its said to use its effects when its "obtained"
-If you can read the description, the explanation of what it does is in the wiki, it explicitly says that it was all just a dream- one which Marisa would wake up from
-Game being unsure if Marisa won is literally a game mechanic- FNF doesnt track your score if you use a bot or something similar. Much like any other games with built in skips/cheats
-And finally, i did mention how it would win. Literally by skipping the fight, making it so it doesnt happen, and making future events happening because of that fight not happen because the fight didnt bloody happen. You are literally choosing to ignore it
This is going to be my final message on the matter, because the blatant ignorance and hypocrisy is genuinely making me sick.
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Oh, wow y'all wasted no time on making Touhou vs threads lol.
I will probably look into the lower tier Touhou characters before making a VS thread, tbh I don't like high tier debates that much in general. (Especially when I think both characters are wanked) I'll probably refrain from making a dumb
Hmmm, it's rude of me to come here and talk about something random. I should probably give my input in order to not be seen as rude. I'll read their profiles and the thread to determine who wins.
I will probably look into the lower tier Touhou characters before making a VS thread, tbh I don't like high tier debates that much in general. (Especially when I think both characters are wanked) I'll probably refrain from making a dumb
Hmmm, it's rude of me to come here and talk about something random. I should probably give my input in order to not be seen as rude. I'll read their profiles and the thread to determine who wins.
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Strawmanning me. I never said it's not standard equipment, I said it's not passive as in the meaning of "it's already used, even unconsciously".
Ok so you're essentially arguing that every of these cards is triggered at once when the fight starts, which I do not think this is how shit works.
This does not say me how Marisa wins.
A game mechanic is something like damage calculation or fights being turn based. Here I am talking about text, and the FNF thing is such a false equivalence that I think that you're either climbing or mirrors rn or just being dishonest.
How is ignoring a fight winning though?
Because the win conditions are these:
Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.
Skipping the fight fits in like none of these.
Lol.
ShionAH
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This was done before the rule removal, before planck even made the crt iirc
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Yeah but the instant the rule got removed y'all started yapping lol.
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Dragonite007
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Looks like a Self-BFR
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Fr lol. The game even questioning if Marisa actually won is not making it better.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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The way it works in game is by instantly completing the stage and acting as if you beat the boss at the end by giving you whatever card they held. It “skips” the stage as in acting as if you had completed it and won, treating it as a dream she wakes up from, starting from the next stage. The effects it has in game and the results it gives are undeniable, and considering how dreams in 2hu are entire realities it’s functionally just supplanting a reality where she won the stage and continuing on. The ? Is because you didn’t beat it traditionally, instead just waking up from a dream, it’s not typical stage completion lol.
It’s weird and obtuse yeah, but not really “sus”. If Azzy has no resistance to subjective reality like this then it’s an instant loss.
It’s weird and obtuse yeah, but not really “sus”. If Azzy has no resistance to subjective reality like this then it’s an instant loss.
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All that I am ******* asking is how this shit fits one of the wincons I have mentioned above.
Is that so hard to do or you're just going to be a broken disc?
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,516
- 3,997
It's Subjective Reality, so I guess they beat Asriel in their dream and it translates to reality? Sorta like Eggman's Subjective Reality
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It doesn't even say that, it only instantly stops the fight, and Marisa wakes up with the fight being skipped over, as if it never happened.
However I fail to see how is this even a wincon and not some kind of self-BFR at worst.
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Wouldn't that card be a game mechanic? I am just thinking, if Marisa could just automatically beat anyone in her dreams and make those dreams real, Cheating detective Satori would have ended way quicker and not drag on for like dozens of chapters of absolute slop. Unless she somehow forgot she can just do that (Which seems like bad writing, it would fit the rest of the bad writing in CDS)
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,516
- 3,997
I'd assume that it has an effect on actual reality if she ends up getting the bosses' card, no?
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She doesn't? She only gets these cards randomly in the stage.
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Tbh these cards seem to fit more in also Optional Equipment, as it's clear she doesn't have access to them all the time, she has to, you know, obtain them, it's not like a RPG character who has always these in their bag.
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If I remember well, there was a reason for those cards to be in her standard arsenal. Something something about her not throwing them away like the other characters and still having them so she can theoretically use them for fights.
Though I am skeptic about how those cards work outside of the video games. I don't think she has ever used them on the current mangas that happen after the game she obtained them in. Hell, I played Touhou 19, and I am pretty sure she doesn't even use most of those cards from unconnected marketeers in that game either. I personally don't like the idea that Marisa is carrying these cards around and is willing to use them in character, when the literal next game in the series and the manga disprove that. I am also very skeptic of how these cards would work outside the games they're in since some are heavily based on game mechanics, and could potentially be seen as game mechanics taken too seriously despite the narrative contradicting that.
All that yapping aside, that could probably be a CRT, though I am too lazy to do it, so I would prefer to just complain and do nothing.
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Yeah, this is another concern. Seems to just be a one-off thing to me as well and that's it.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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The ability cards aren’t one off, but they are recent to the series. They were introduced in Touhou 18, then in Marisa’s solo game, Touhou 18.5, she canonically collected every single one available, and then they show up again in the most recent game in the series, Touhou 19. That’s 3 consecutive games in the series that they appear in, the most recent games as well, and Marisa is canonically the only character to have collected them all. If they’re standard for ANYONE in Touhou, it’s Marisa ESPECIALLY.
I’m not sure how we’re being biased for Marisa here when we’re just using things that were accepted onto her profile, and the argument has shifted from if Azzy has any counter, to arguing against what’s on the profiles or if they’re standard or not.
I’m not sure how we’re being biased for Marisa here when we’re just using things that were accepted onto her profile, and the argument has shifted from if Azzy has any counter, to arguing against what’s on the profiles or if they’re standard or not.
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And y'all don't even say how Marisa using that fits one of these:
So if you wanna say pointless fluff, two can play the game.
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