Maou Gakuin Regeneration Downgrade (High-Godly to Mid-Godly)

[Tatsumi504]

Let this downgrade go through first, either to rejection or acceptance.

Next time if you mentioned dracula you'll see me drink blood.

Whoa! Yu x Mikaela, Eldemade x Reiner, could see that working

 

[Reiner04]

No, he does it before his source gets destroyed, here's the scan.

I'm not sure what your second point has to do with anything. It doesn't prove that sources count as history regen, anyways.


Okay? How does this mean that regenerating the source equates to regenerating history?

So what's the point of this? I mean, even in future, the source has been destroyed entirely? It's the magic that has restored his source and he used it before the attack can reach him because he can't after his source gets destroyed as written. And what @Theglassman12 said, destroying source in present, destroys your future. After all, the arguement itself is regenerating after source being destroyed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So what's the point of this? I mean, even in future, the source has been destroyed entirely? It's the magic that has restored his source and he used it before the attack can reach him because he can't after his source gets destroyed as written. And what @Theglassman12 said, destroying source in present, destroys your future.

...Because I was correcting you on something you got wrong. Anyways, where's the evidence that regenerating your source means regenerating your past?

 

[Reiner04]

...Because I was correcting you on something you got wrong. Anyways, where's the evidence that regenerating your source means regenerating your past?

It doesn't needed, as no one in the verse regenerating from past self anyway. It's written in the page because it is possible that characters has regenerated from their past self after their soul got destroyed but it's not the case as it's impossible to regenerate if the source gets destroyed unless ofc, you're Anos.

 

[Tatsumi504]

If we are talking about people regenerating from history EE

Yes. But I, too, am immortal. This body is the order of traces. I am the past of all things. No matter how many times time is painted over, the fact remains that it was there.

Existence that has already passed away, records and memories are traces of divine order.

To destroy him, it would be desirable to alter the past, but there is no way to win by using time magic against the god who controls that order.

He was certainly here.

That fact will never change, no matter what.

And that is the reason why he who is the past is immortal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It doesn't needed, as no one in the verse regenerating from past self anyway. It's written in the page because it is possible that characters has regenerated from their past self after their soul got destroyed but it's not the case as it's impossible to regenerate if the source gets destroyed unless ofc, you're Anos.

Oh cool, thanks. So that concludes that topic. @Qawsedf234, I'd like it if you could re-evaluate your position now that the opposition has stated that there are no feats of history regeneration.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wait, since when was history erasure a part of this? Is there an example of characters regenerating their history that I missed? I'm confused.

...DBH Zamasu

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If we are talking about people regenerating from history EE

That would only apply to one specific character, not everybody's source. Although, does this character get erased and regenerate?

...DBH Zamasu

I meant this thread, dummy

 

[Reiner04]

Oh cool, thanks. So that concludes that topic. @Qawsedf234, I'd like it if you could re-evaluate your position now that the opposition has stated that there are no feats of history regeneration.

Yes thanks, "there is no feats from history regen" just fits what I said.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If we are talking about people regenerating from history EE

At this point stop it bro just go back to your thread.

 

[Tatsumi504]

unless ofc, you're Anos.

Or graham or Venuzdonoa or Averneyu or Anahem, all gods or can use Veneziara

 

[Reiner04]

Or graham or Venuzdonoa or Averneyu or Anahem, all gods or can use Veneziara

 

[Tatsumi504]

That would only apply to one specific character, not everybody's source. Although, does this character get erased and regenerate?

Who's talking about the source? This is Rivalschnedd body. His body is literally the past of all things. Erasing that and coming back from it is what?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Who's talking about the source? This is Rivalschnedd body. His body is literally the past of all things. Erasing that and coming back from it is what?

Tatsumi you are Wasting your time honestly ask @Qawsedf234 to review your thread. That's solves this thread problem

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Who's talking about the source? This is Rivalschnedd body. His body is literally the past of all things. Erasing that and coming back from it is what?

It'd be HGR, if he has feats of regenerating from erasure. However, nobody else would scale.

Yes thanks, "there is no feats from history regen" just fits what I said.

Cool. So we agree that sources don't qualify for history regen, and therefore don't get HGR? That's what this whole argument was about, after all.

 

[Reiner04]

It'd be HGR, if he has feats of regenerating from erasure. However, nobody else would scale.


Cool. So we agree that sources don't qualify for history regen, and therefore don't get HGR? That's what this whole argument was about, after all.

It's funny how I just quoted what you said and what I said but you proceed to mention after maths conclusion from your perspective while I am leaving the conclusions to decide on staff rather than strawmaning you.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway, "regen from history is impossible" in the verse as what we agreed on, leave it to staff now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyway, "regen from history is impossible" in the verse as what we agreed on, leave it to staff now.

This is Mid-Godly

This is High Godly

Being erased from history and coming back from it would be High Godly without getting into anything conceptual.

So no, in my view they'd still be High Godly.

Qawsedf, sorry to bother you, but could you take a second look at this? Do you still think high-godly is valid if regenerating the past is impossible in-verse?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Snip

Could you please give your opinion here? https://vsbattles.com/threads/upgra...u-gakuin-to-type-1-concept-again-pt-2.151092/

 

[Tatsumi504]

It'd be HGR, if he has feats of regenerating from erasure. However, nobody else would scale.

Regenerating the source is harder than this. Literally all gods regenerating their body which is type 1 CM and it's more difficult to regenerate the source

 

[Reiner04]

Also, @Qawsedf234 , as regeneration from past self is impossible as fuji said, it's quite clear that History doesn't play any role in regeneration, regardless it's exist or not, it doesn't matter, they had need some other factor to regenerate after their soul and at worse source gets destroyed. Not even in future they can regenerate as future is dead too, all incarnations too, without Anos source restoring magic.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Regenerating the source is harder than this. Literally all gods regenerating their body which is type 1 CM and it's more difficult to regenerate the source

Considering gods can regenerate their source, I find this hard to believe. Also, if Rivalschnedd has no feats of regeneration from erasure, this wouldn't matter anyways.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

"High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist."

Allow me to summarize the two arguments:

For HGR: The source is an even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence than body, mind, and soul, therefore regeneration from source destruction is HGR.

Against HGR: The source is a Type 3 concept, and the definition of HGR states that very rarely does a Type 3 concept qualify for HGR unless it is proven to be as difficult to regenerate from as Type 1 and Type 2 concepts.

The source being an even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence than body, mind, and soul isn't enough to qualify for HGR. As per HGR's definition, there needs to be evidence that regenerating from source destruction (Type 3) is as difficult to regenerate from as the destruction of a Type 1 or Type 2 concept. No evidence for this has been presented in the thread. All arguments for HGR have been ignoring that a Type 3 concept doesn't inherently qualify for HGR, even if it is a fundamental aspect of a character's existence.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Considering gods can regenerate their source, I find this hard to believe. Also, if Rivalschnedd has no feats of regeneration from erasure, this wouldn't matter anyways.

He regenerates even his source in the fight. Gods already have HGR for their body, what more for fundamental aspect of existence that is the same with everyone elses

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

He regenerates even his source in the fight. Gods already have HGR for their body, what more for fundamental aspect of existence that is the same with everyone elses

Do you have scans for this? And again, I would like to ask for evidence that his source is harder to regen than his body/past, since as far as I'm aware, gods can regen their sources easily.

 

[Qawsedf234]

specific spell where he healed it in the future as opposed to natural regeneration.

Oh, well if that's the case then yeah, it wouldn't be HGR but some spell based resurrection.

By that logic, any regen feat could be argued as HGR

No, because you're misunderstanding my point.

Regeneration from your mind, body and soul being destroyed doesn't require HGR because the concept of you as a person and the fundamental aspect of your person still exists. If you die and someone has erased your concept from any future coming back would require HGR or specialized resurrection that can cover losing a fundamental aspect of yourself.

. @Qawsedf234, I'd like it if you could re-evaluate your position now that the opposition has stated that there are no feats of history regeneration.

It would still be HGR unless their past self was explicitly used to bring them back.

In base Anos' case his thing was prepped based, so it doesn't qualify for HGR. But the feat itself is HGR scale wise.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Regeneration from your mind, body and soul being destroyed doesn't require HGR because the concept of you as a person and the fundamental aspect of your person still exists. If you die and someone has erased your concept from any future coming back would require HGR or specialized resurrection that can cover losing a fundamental aspect of yourself.

Yes, that's usually the case, but the page explicitly states that type 3 CM can only qualify if it is treated as being as hard to regenerate as type 1 or 2 concept. So if there isn't proof of this, HGR goes.

It would still be HGR unless their past self was explicitly used to bring them back.

In base Anos' case his thing was prepped based, so it doesn't qualify for HGR. But the feat itself is HGR scale wise.

How would it still be HGR? They aren't regenerating their past, so what fundamental aspect are they regenerating?

 

[Theglassman12]

If there's no feats of regenerating from being erased across history is this topic remotely needed to discuss? Because the only thing we have for Anos is concept.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If there's no feats of regenerating from being erased across history is this topic remotely needed to discuss? Because the only thing we have for Anos is concept.

From what I gathered, Qaws seems to think regenerating the source is regenerating history.

 

[Qawsedf234]

3 CM can only qualify if it is treated as being as hard to regenerate as type 1 or 2 concept

Which it would be. If you're concept is erased coming back from it is always going to be HGR unless the concept is shown to be easily restored first.

They aren't regenerating their past

They're regenerating despite being destroyed in all possible futures.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 That's only because of a time paradox, not literal erasure. Plus the only thing that mentions being erased across history is a specific weapon that has that ability and no one has regenned from it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They're regenerating despite being destroyed in all possible futures.

Is the future history? I can't believe I have to ask this.

Which it would be. If you're concept is erased coming back from it is always going to be HGR unless the concept is shown to be easily restored first.

No? That is not what the standard says at all... it's not "type 3 can qualify if it's hard to regenerate", it's "type 3 can qualify if it is as hard to regenerate as type 1 or 2 concepts". So where is the evidence of the latter?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Qawsedf234 That's only because of a time paradox, not literal erasure. Plus the only thing that mentions being erased across history is a specific weapon that has that ability and no one has regenned from it.

That's not time paradox stop with your headcanon. You still fail to explain why the future deaths would affect the individual at present without even dying. Glass at this point i feel like you are desperate so you making things up which doens't exists in the verse.

After all, the deaths of your infinite number of future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

 

[Qawsedf234]

. Plus the only thing that mentions being erased across history is a specific weapon that has that ability and no one has regenned from it.

I already acknowledged that. I was telling Fuji that his view on HGR is just wrong. Regenerating from having your future history destroyed after the fact would still be HGR.

No?

Yes.

• Your the concept of your being is erased from all future timelines, that means that the concept of you ceases to exist the moment you die
• If you regenerate after that event, its HGR

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon that's literally what a time paradox means. It's not headcanon, look it up. If I killed someone in the past, their future ceases to exist by default. Plus you didn't post any scan on future deaths affecting the present, what you posted was the exact opposite.

@Qawsedf234 Can you elaborate on the type 3 concept regen part given nothing about this is clear?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon that's literally what a time paradox means. It's not headcanon, look it up. If I killed someone in the past, their future ceases to exist by default. Plus you didn't post any scan on future deaths affecting the present, what you posted was the exact opposite.

Killed? whom killed whom? You are still not tackling the point why would your fundamental concepts getting affected in present alone would make you feel the infinite incarnations which hasn't happened.

“Now do you understand? Having your source wounded is an agony worse than death. Condensing every imaginable pain in this world into one would still be incomparable. After all, the deaths of your infinite number of future incarnations are occurring all at once.”

 

[Theglassman12]

Glad to know you don't understand what an Example means. Also good job taking your own scan out of context. It never said you're feeling the future incarnations, just that they're occuring all at once because the source is getting ******.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Glad to know you don't understand what an Example means. Also good job taking your own scan out of context. It never said you're feeling the future incarnations, just that they're occuring all at once because the source is getting ******.

There is no example you gave regarding any time paradox

You still fail to address why would that person feel the pain of infinite future incarnation at present.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 Can you elaborate on the type 3 concept regen part given nothing about this is clear?

Type 3 just means the concept in question is limited in some capacity. But if the concept of your person is destroyed and you come back, that is treated the same as coming back from Type 1 or Type 2 CM. Which is why it's still noted that it's a valid path. The times Type 3 wouldn't give you HGR is when the Type 3 concept has nothing to do with the person in question or if it's shown to have some glaring flaw.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I think Qawsed makes sense