Maou Gakuin (F) 2-A Removal.

[PrinceofPein]

In this thread, 2-A MGK was passed again, even though it was previously removed in this thread. It was the holidays and I was a bit busy to argue properly.
The reasons were the same: Naphta, the god of the future, has the power to see countless futures and restrict the future to whatever she wants using the Kandaquizorte. They claimed since the Kandaquizorte is said to be the shape of the world, it must contain these futures already as a 2-A multiverse infinitely branching out. I.e. An ability that allows you to see countless futures and pick and choose which future you want is turned into a big deal to grant 2-A. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; TLDR: there is no proof of an infinitely branching multiverse in the whole work like it is claimed, just a single statement taken out of context on purpose and described to mean what it is not.

Anyway, here is the full explanation of the whole thing and my argument. Since, It feels like this is just an issue with English understanding, so I will define these words again.

Future: time regarded as still to come. (a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing)
Possibility: a thing that may happen or be the case. (A likelihood)
Probability: the quality or state of being probable (Probable: likely to happen or be the case.)
Happen: take place; occur
Reality: the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

I feel odd having to argue for something as simple as this, but I guess nothing is ever simple.

​

Point 1: The crystal is what contains these countless possibilities and can materialize them, but the thing is,​

Terminology of "Possibilities" in Text
The text explicitly refers to "possibilities" rather than physical alternate worlds. This implies that these are potential outcomes, not existing entities.

"King of the demons, I grant you this prophecy," the Goddess of the Future said as she turned the crystal in her hands towards me. "When these eyes open, I, Naphta, will be able to see every future. Every possible future, every miracle yet to pass, exists in the hands of the Goddess of the Future. The victorious future you seek will spill from your hands, and you will be deprived of any possibility to resist it." She spoke in a matter-of-fact tone. "People can die of aggravated colds. They can trip over their own feet and lose their lives. Everyone in this world lives by the rolls of the gods' dice. Facing me means facing the worst possible day for you."

And the phrase "Yet to pass" suggests these possibilities are abstract constructs waiting to be actualized

The Goddess of the Future held her hands out before her. Divine magic flowed into the surrounding area, shaking the cathedral. The crystal spear turned towards me and shot forward faster than the eye could see. I turned my head to avoid it, but the spear turned at the same time, following my face.

"Hmm. So read the future?"

The spear came to a stop right before my nose. I had grabbed the shaft.

"I can restrict the future. You will be unable to grasp the spear."

The moment the Goddess of the Future said that, the crystal spear slipped from my hand. I immediately dived aside, but the Future World Crystal surpassed my speed by a fraction and bore into my stomach.

Naphta's ability to "choose" or "restrict" futures also suggests these possibilities are simply one of the many possible futures rather than independent realities already playing out.

The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around uslike a glittering sandstorm.“This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now becondemned to exile in a restricted world.”

"One more possible shape of the world" Again, these are all possibilities, and the crystal can actualize them and create a world made of crystals.

Mechanics of Actualization
The crystal serves as a medium through which Naphta can actualize a specific possibility. This process implies that the possibility doesn't exist in a physical sense until it is materialized in the real world.

"Restrict, huh? I see. I suppose there could be a one-in-a-billion chance of me failing to grasp the spear. You used the Future World Crystal's power to restrict the future and make that happen."

"Kandaquizorte is the future itself. There is no way for you to touch the future."

"Oh?"

I drew a layered magic circle and passed my right hand through it. With my fingertips stained bluish-white with Ygg Neas, I gave it another try, but they still failed to grasp the crystal shaft.

"It seems it won't be so easy to grasp."

If the possibilities were pre-existing worlds, there would be no need for a process of materialization. Hence the "make that happen" meaning something that does not exist and yet to occur.
Analogy with Probability
Multiple outcomes are possible but only one becomes real when "observed" or chosen. This reinforces the idea that these are conceptual futures, not physical ones.

I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures."

The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sand- storm.

"This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world."

Naphta’s power in selecting and materializing futures further supports the argument that these possibilities are not already tangible. Her power acts as the catalyst for turning abstract potential into physical reality. As it is said here, a possible future it is a possibility that may happen, hence a probability, but Naphta has the power to make that possibility a reality

Point 2:​

Nature of the Crystal Domain
The text describes the crystal world as "made entirely of crystals," emphasizing its artificial nature. This suggests that it is not an alternate universe but rather a simulated environment created by Naphta's power. Even people(humans) in it are made from crystals, meaning again, this is not the real world like the supporters claim since everything is made up of crystals.

The crystal sandstorm dispersed, revealing a whole new landscape. We were standing in an unfamiliar city. Every building, every plant, and every person was made of crystal. The mountains in the distance, the dome far overhead, and the flowing rivers were all crystal too. Each object contained an unfathomable amount of magic.

"A world created by Kandaquizorte, huh? So this is a god's domain."

"I, Naphta, swear to you that this world has been restricted to produce the worst possible result for you in every way. Your victory is not possible in this world."

Also, it was directly stated, "A world created by......." If it was a world already playing out and existing as its own physical reality, it would not need to be created again, and it sure as hell will not be made of crystals. This further buttresses my point 1, which is that these worlds are possible futures that have not yet been materialized.

The next moment, crystal spears began appearing from the buildingsaround me. More crystal spears appeared from the dome above until theywere being fired from every possible direction. While the spears carvedaway at my body, the clock tower up ahead separated from the ground andfloated into the air. Its pointed spire rotated and shot forward, crashing intome while I was pinned in place. Blood poured from every part of my body

The fact that Naphta can control and manipulate the worst possible outcomes within the crystal highlights the synthetic nature of this domain. As she can edit what she wants, as she sees fit much like restricting the worst possible outcomes in every scenario. The use of crystals as the primary material within the domain is, reinforcing the idea that this is a crafted, non-natural space.

The crystal was referred to as not real but rather restricted world and the real world was still called the "real world"

“So when you open those Divine Eyes of yours, make sure you restrict things properly. Once I release this spell, Kandaquizorte’s world will be annihilated at best.”The Goddess of the Future faced me in stunned silence.“If you don’t restrict things, the real world will perish alongside this one.”

Also, the phrase "holds the shape of the world" refers to possibilities rather than an existing, tangible world. As it is talking about the countless futures the world could have. The Kandaquizorte has the power to shape the world's future.

The Future World Crystal is the countless futures of this world; it is the shape of the world itself. What you are doing is competing to see who gets destroyed first between the world and yourself. The result should be clear as day

More proof:

“This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now becondemned to exile in a restricted world.”

The text explicitly states that the "one more possible shape the world" refers to possibility, confirming it is not an actual, physical reality but an abstract representation of what could exist.

The fact that the Kandaquizorte’s world is made up of possibilities is further buttressed by this text

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn't allow the world's possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.
"In other words, this match is over."
Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. "I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated."

The Kandaquizorte’s world contains the world possibilities, but these are simply possible futures that are not yet real or actualized.

Closing Summary:​

when you hold a die and you want to roll it, you can have either of the 6 outcomes as a possibility, those 6 possibilities exists, but then cast the die and only one of those possibility is materialized, now nafta has the power to impose on the possibility she wants and that is the one that becomes real.

Until you cast the die, rolling a 1 or 2 is not actualized until you cast the die, just a possible future, which is precisely what this is.
Nafta is the god of the order of the future, and the future is filled with numerous possibilities from where she can pick the future she wants. So is it possible for these futures to exist? Yes, they can become the next thing that happens. Are these futures already physically playing out in a different timeline? not at all.
These futures are not in her mind; there is an order that allows for numerous possible futures, and she gets to pick any she wants.
unless she picks one, none of the future are actualized

The crystal is a vessel for these possibilities, which are potential outcomes rather than pre-existing worlds. Naphta's domain, made entirely of crystals, is a constructed environment used materialize these possibilities. These factors collectively support the conclusion that the crystal contains abstract possibilities that can be made real by Naphta, not physical alternate realities.

Hence, 2-A for an ability to see possible futures and pick your desired outcome is nonsensical and wrong, as that is simply precog and probability manipulation. All characters that was upgraded to 2-A should be downgraded by low 2-C.
All scans were gotten from Chapter 17 and 18 of Volume 6, anyone who is interested in reading it, I will gladly provide the entire chapters, they are about 6 pages

Agree: @Planck69,
Disagree: @DarkDragonMedeus, @GarrixianXD, @Dereck03
Neutral:

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Agreed

 

[Orioreeem]

Disagree

 

[Fyodol_Empyrean]

So peak

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Agree, since napta manipulated/control ‘possibilities’ are more aligned with fate manipulation rather than controlling actual physical worlds themselves

 

[Planck69]

Makes sense to me.

 

[HeavenlyVillain2]

Disagree bruh

 

[Trigger]

Disagree bruh

Same

 

[PrinceofPein]

Disagree

Disagree bruh

Same

You need to provide an argument for disagreeing, which will involve disproving what is in the OP

 

[Trigger]

You need to provide an argument for disagreeing, which will involve disproving what is in the OP

Is that so? Give me a moment then.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agreed.
I have read the op of the previous thread in its entirety and this one too, and the points are clear, these possibilities are not physically existing worlds, just potential future, infinite or countless of them, with Naphta just being able to decide which future comes true.

 

[Livinmeme]

gets upgraded
immediatly gets downgraded back to step 1 the next week

KWAB

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks simple enough

 

[Digital_Franz]

A̶ M̶G̶ r̶e̶v̶i̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ i̶s̶ n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ t̶r̶u̶l̶y̶ c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶e̶t̶e̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ a̶ s̶e̶q̶u̶e̶l̶ o̶f̶ a̶ d̶o̶w̶n̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶.

Agree with the OP.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Looks good, I agree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As the staff that accepted the upgrade previously, I would like your evaluation here: @GarrixianXD @Elizhaa @Dereck03

 

[PrinceofPein]

As the staff that accepted the upgrade previously, I would like your evaluation here: @GarrixianXD @Elizhaa @Dereck03

Your inputs will also be appreciated, you can go through the OPs and give an evaluation

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Damn. Maou Gakuin can't last a minute without someone trying to bring them back down to Low 2-C.

The reasoning seems solid though, unfortunately, so I agree.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Makes sense to me.

 

[wwereymy235]

I didn’t even know MG got 2-A again. I’ve always originally agreed with 2-A Kandaquizorte. I will read both threads later to give my verdict.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

This verse always always go on the cycle of low 2-C and 2-A like some kind of an inevitable Deja-vu.

 

[GarrixianXD]

After reading the OP, I see the core argument that is used is that all of those "possibilities" are simply hypothetical outcomes that don't actually exist and don't happen.

Let's first list our general assumption and guidelines for a timeline:

Note that timelines, by default, are assumed to be infinitely long i.e. it’s assumed that there is no end to time. Hence, unless the contrary are shown, the destruction of timelines that branch out from each other, and then never merge together again, would still be ranked between 2-C and 2-A (depending on the amount).

Time is assumed to be endless and infinite, meaning there are no ends and every time point and all events have already happened; everything is set in course and that is why the application of fate, destiny and history comes into rule here. All of the events that occurred, whether it be the "past", or "future", etc. are already set; the future is already set, meaning everything has already happened.

Though, you'll argue that simply because the future is already set and fate coming into play here alone is a silly argument for multiple worlds, which I do agree with; however, I see that the evidence presented by the last upgrade thread and your OP does ultimately indicate the existence of multiple timelines.

I'll go over the stuff in the OP that does implicate the existence of multiple timelines/branching futures:

Spoiler: Statement

I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures."

The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sand- storm.

"This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world."

OP's argument towards this:

Naphta’s power in selecting and materializing futures further supports the argument that these possibilities are not already tangible. Her power acts as the catalyst for turning abstract potential into physical reality. As it is said here, a possible future it is a possibility that may happen, hence a probability, but Naphta has the power to make that possibility a reality

My argument:

This dialogue says that to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures. Now, I have no idea where you got the argument that these futures don't exist but rather exist as hypothetical, because it didn't happen and hence a "hypothetical possibility". I don't see how this line of argument is valid; as I said before, the future is already set and fate comes into play here; all the events that occurred "linearly" from that course of action already happened, and there are no existing multiple hypothesis outcomes to that "linear flow of events" from that course of action because those "linear flow of events" already took place.

Now add the in-verse context that you must destroy all possible futures, it asserts that there do exist multiple branches in the timeline from a course of events, with each branch representing a "possible future"; there is multiple "linear flow of events" from that certain course of action that arises "possible futures". Not to mention that it is explicitly said that you need to destroy multiple futures, clearly asserting that there exist futures, which those futures being branched out timelines with each branch representing a "possibility".

Another context that I see merit in the existence of multiple possibilities:

Spoiler: Statement

“This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.”

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn't allow the world's possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.
"In other words, this match is over."
Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. "I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated."

OP's argument:

The text explicitly states that the "one more possible shape the world" refers to possibility, confirming it is not an actual, physical reality but an abstract representation of what could exist.
The Kandaquizorte’s world contains the world possibilities, but these are simply possible futures that are not yet real or actualized.

My argument:
Same argument as before. The future is already set; the future is real, actualised, and did already happen and does exists. Under the law and notion of fate, everything is already set, statements about multiple possibilities directly assert the existence of branched-out futures with each branch representing a different possibility from that point in time (in simple words, a possible future).

The entire concept of possibilities and hypothesis comes from the mortal minds of human beings because we can't see into the future, hence we assume that the future is not set and hypothetical futures are passed on and shit, but the concept of destiny says otherwise. Fate and destiny already predetermined everything, there are no hypothetical outcomes from the god's perspective because god knows everything is predetermined and what'll happen, and there is no hypothesis in that.

With that said, the only plausible interpretation of "multiple possibilities" would be different existing futures, with each future being a different timeline that operates independently, separate from any other timeline. Or, branching in the main timeline with each branched-out timeline representing a different future/possibility.

================================================

I also see that there are many things in the previous upgrade thread you haven't addressed:

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.” Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta. Gods couldn’t defy order. Naphta had kept her eyes closed to avoid seeing this result.
~Light Novel Official English Translation. Vol 6 Chapter 18

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.

“In other words, this match is over.”

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.”

Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta.

Gods couldn’t defy order. Naphta had kept her eyes closed to avoid seeing this result.

“That’s why you should have listened to my prophecy from the beginning.”

With my mauve-stained Eyes fixed on Naphta, I slowly walked towards her. I covered her eyes with one hand, shutting out the future. The destruction of her body came to an abrupt halt.

The context mentions the existence of multiple worlds and implies they exist with respect to the flow and branching of time/future/possibilities.

I overall disagree with this; the evidence indicating the actual existence of multiple futures rather than a simple hypothetical basis is just too strong. Not to mention that we assume time to be infinite and all events to be predetermined by default.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Dereck03 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Planck69 I provided my evaluation; you are all free to take a look.

 

[Dereck03]

After reading the OP, I see the core argument that is used is that all of those "possibilities" are simply hypothetical outcomes that don't actually exist and don't happen.

Let's first list our general assumption and guidelines for a timeline:


Time is assumed to be endless and infinite, meaning there are no ends and every time point and all events have already happened; everything is set in course and that is why the application of fate, destiny and history comes into rule here. All of the events that occurred, whether it be the "past", or "future", etc. are already set; the future is already set, meaning everything has already happened.

Though, you'll argue that simply because the future is already set and fate coming into play here alone is a silly argument for multiple worlds, which I do agree with; however, I see that the evidence presented by the last upgrade thread and your OP does ultimately indicate the existence of multiple timelines.

I'll go over the stuff in the OP that does implicate the existence of multiple timelines/branching futures:

Spoiler: Statement

I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures."

The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sand- storm.

"This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world."

OP's argument towards this:


My argument:

This dialogue says that to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures. Now, I have no idea where you got the argument that these futures don't exist but rather exist as hypothetical, because it didn't happen and hence a "hypothetical possibility". I don't see how this line of argument is valid; as I said before, the future is already set and fate comes into play here; all the events that occurred "linearly" from that course of action already happened, and there are no existing multiple hypothesis outcomes to that "linear flow of events" from that course of action because those "linear flow of events" already took place.

Now add the in-verse context that you must destroy all possible futures, it asserts that there do exist multiple branches in the timeline from a course of events, with each branch representing a "possible future"; there is multiple "linear flow of events" from that certain course of action that arises "possible futures". Not to mention that it is explicitly said that you need to destroy multiple futures, clearly asserting that there exist futures, which those futures being branched out timelines with each branch representing a "possibility".

Another context that I see merit in the existence of multiple possibilities:

Spoiler: Statement

“This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.”

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn't allow the world's possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.
"In other words, this match is over."
Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. "I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated."

OP's argument:


My argument:
Same argument as before. The future is already set; the future is real, actualised, and did already happen and does exists. Under the law and notion of fate, everything is already set, statements about multiple possibilities directly assert the existence of branched-out futures with each branch representing a different possibility from that point in time (in simple words, a possible future).

The entire concept of possibilities and hypothesis comes from the mortal minds of human beings because we can't see into the future, hence we assume that the future is not set and hypothetical futures are passed on and shit, but the concept of destiny says otherwise. Fate and destiny already predetermined everything, there are no hypothetical outcomes from the god's perspective because god knows everything is predetermined and what'll happen, and there is no hypothesis in that.

With that said, the only plausible interpretation of "multiple possibilities" would be different existing futures, with each future being a different timeline that operates independently, separate from any other timeline. Or, branching in the main timeline with each branched-out timeline representing a different future/possibility.

================================================

I also see that there are many things in the previous upgrade thread you haven't addressed:

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.” Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta. Gods couldn’t defy order. Naphta had kept her eyes closed to avoid seeing this result.
~Light Novel Official English Translation. Vol 6 Chapter 18

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.

“In other words, this match is over.”

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.”

Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta.

Gods couldn’t defy order. Naphta had kept her eyes closed to avoid seeing this result.

“That’s why you should have listened to my prophecy from the beginning.”

With my mauve-stained Eyes fixed on Naphta, I slowly walked towards her. I covered her eyes with one hand, shutting out the future. The destruction of her body came to an abrupt halt.

The context mentions the existence of multiple worlds and implies they exist with respect to the flow and branching of time/future/possibilities.

I overall disagree with this; the evidence indicating the actual existence of multiple futures rather than a simple hypothetical basis is just too strong. Not to mention that we assume time to be infinite and all events to be predetermined by default.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Dereck03 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Planck69 I provided my evaluation; you are all free to take a look.

You know that I pretty much disagree with this thread so I'm finding myself in agreement with your argument.

It's a shame that I'm working in a festival rn and don't have the time nor the internet (heck, I'm have 850kbps internet rn) so yeah, as soon as I can I will try to give more input in this.

 

[DemonKing021]

Disagree based on GarrixianXD's evaluation. I don't see how Naphta's ability is just possibility manipulation when there's a spell Anos has and both are explicitly stated to be different.

Not to mention contextwise if the future world crystal was just a city with possibility manipulation ability, then Anos could have destroyed it with a Jio Graze alone. He wouldn't need a world destroying magic like Egil Grone Angdroa.

It is also stated that you need to destroy all possibilities to destroy the Restricted World. EGA doesn't have probability manipulation, so based on the context it destroyed the physical futures.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Based on Garrixian's explanations, I am switching to disagree.

 

[DemonKing021]

So 3 staffs disagree. So the downgrade fails, right?

Pein is really PrinceofPain.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I cannot help but notice that you simply did not even address the cores of my arguments or disprove them, you simply poured out your thoughts.

After reading the OP, I see the core argument that is used is that all of those "possibilities" are simply hypothetical outcomes that don't actually exist and don't happen.

Let's first list our general assumption and guidelines for a timeline:

Spoiler: Statement

I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures."

The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sand- storm.

"This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world."

OP's argument towards this:


My argument:

This dialogue says that to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures. Now, I have no idea where you got the argument that these futures don't exist but rather exist as hypothetical, because it didn't happen and hence a "hypothetical possibility". I don't see how this line of argument is valid; as I said before, the future is already set and fate comes into play here; all the events that occurred "linearly" from that course of action already happened, and there are no existing multiple hypothesis outcomes to that "linear flow of events" from that course of action because those "linear flow of events" already took place.

Possibilities are not physical realities. Again refer to the definition of physical realities. They are called possible future for a reason and there are countless of them.

At that moment, a clear voice cut in from behind Diedrich. "The Prophet Diedrich can see a countless number of futures. His sight extends into the distant future, to factors no ordinary man can see. This allows him to walk the correct path."

Also the future is not set, and actions of people in the series determines the future, as a different action causes the future to change, hence your statement the "future is already set" is wrong, as this is seen by multiple text in the series, but here are some from this context

Goddess of the Future, huh? If Naphta truly possessed the order of thefuture, the Prophet title was far more credible than Ahid’s garbage title hadbeen.“In other words, greeting me here would lead you to the pope. Is that thefuture you saw?” I asked. “Right you are. If I were to make one more prophecy, I would say thatAhid Alovo Agartz will show up at the sacred grounds.”

As seen here, greeting anos leads to another future, hence Naphta did it. or seen here in this text also

“Seeing the future can be a rather fickle thing. Protecting the Royal Dragon could mean failing to protect something else. It’s normally thedangers you can’t see that must be removed.”So the best option had been to abandon the guardian dragon of his own kingdom

Where it says protecting the "Royal Dragon could mean failing to protect another thing". This means that actions can have repercussion that cannot be seen as the future will be changed.
There are many more, but the point is that the future is not set.
Honestly, again read the text, possibilities are not physical realities. You made this statement

"all the events that occurred "linearly" from that course of action already happened"

But the author said this,

When these eyes open, I, Naphta, will be able to see every future. Every possible future, every miracle yet to pass

So it is safe to assume yours is not the right thing, as the author specifically said this futures are possible futures, yet to pass.

Now add the in-verse context that you must destroy all possible futures, it asserts that there do exist multiple branches in the timeline from a course of events, with each branch representing a "possible future"; there is multiple "linear flow of events" from that certain course of action that arises "possible futures". Not to mention that it is explicitly said that you need to destroy multiple futures, clearly asserting that there exist futures, which those futures being branched out timelines with each branch representing a "possibility".

You should please read your own arguments, if the timelines are linear, then they cannot be branching they are mutually exclusive. A timeline is either a tree, or a straightline, your first paragraph claims it is a straight line and now you claim they are branching. Which is which? As I am confused as to which you are actually arguing for.
That aside, I will appreciate if you do truncate texts from the book, as that removes contexts to support your claim. The actual texts says "You need to destroy all possible futures" not "you need to destroy all futures"
The author called these future possibilities and something that is yet to pass. Hence they have not happened and they are not playing out.

Another context that I see merit in the existence of multiple possibilities:

Spoiler: Statement

“This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.”

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn't allow the world's possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.
"In other words, this match is over."
Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. "I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated."

OP's argument:


My argument:
Same argument as before. The future is already set; the future is real, actualised, and did already happen and does exists. Under the law and notion of fate, everything is already set, statements about multiple possibilities directly assert the existence of branched-out futures with each branch representing a different possibility from that point in time (in simple words, a possible future).

So you agree with my claim that these are possible futures? hence they do not exist as an actual reality? Cause you literally just said it here. Please refer to this

Possibility: a thing that may happen or be the case. (A likelihood)

That aside, you claimed that the world is set and everything is linear, but in the same breadth, you said there are different possibilities. Which is which? A set world goes against MWI, so please pick a side. You are simply making claims without substantiating them and the evidences you provide, goes against your stance.

The entire concept of possibilities and hypothesis comes from the mortal minds of human beings because we can't see into the future, hence we assume that the future is not set and hypothetical futures are passed on and shit, but the concept of destiny says otherwise. Fate and destiny already predetermined everything, there are no hypothetical outcomes from the god's perspective because god knows everything is predetermined and what'll happen, and there is no hypothesis in that.

Please substantiate this, I will say this is simply something you came up with again, as the author explicitly said

"When these eyes open, I, Naphta, will be able to see every future. Every possible future, every miracle yet to pass, exists in the hands of the Goddess of the Future. The victorious future you seek will spill from your hands, and you will be deprived of any possibility to resist it." She spoke in a matter-of-fact tone. "People can die of aggravated colds. They can trip over their own feet and lose their lives. Everyone in this world lives by the rolls of the gods' dice. Facing me means facing the worst possible day for you."

in fact the statement "God's dice" means the future is simply a game of luck, here are other statements that again disproves your linear world and everything already played out theory

"Restrict, huh? I see. I suppose there could be a one-in-a-billion chance of me failing to grasp the spear. You used the Future World Crystal's power to restrict the future and make that happen."

If this future already played out, then she will not be restricting to just one possibility, her ability will be "moving people into another reality entirely" Not restricting possible futures to her desired one. So your claims are wrong in this instance as if this already played out, she will not be seeing countless possible futures but rather a single set out future.

With that said, the only plausible interpretation of "multiple possibilities" would be different existing futures, with each future being a different timeline that operates independently, separate from any other timeline. Or, branching in the main timeline with each branched-out timeline representing a different future/possibility.

How you jumped through the actual interpretation to arrive at this is shocking. The actual interpretation is, she can see all possible futures and restrict it to the one she wants.
if your claim is this, substantiate it, as you have not provided any prove of this. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Spoiler: Statement

Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.

“In other words, this match is over.”

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.”

Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta.

Gods couldn’t defy order. Naphta had kept her eyes closed to avoid seeing this result.

“That’s why you should have listened to my prophecy from the beginning.”

With my mauve-stained Eyes fixed on Naphta, I slowly walked towards her. I covered her eyes with one hand, shutting out the future. The destruction of her body came to an abrupt halt.

The context mentions the existence of multiple worlds and implies they exist with respect to the flow and branching of time/future/possibilities.

This supports my claim that this are simply possibilities, the text you sent literally has this "No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one" this is her saying that no matter, something with 0 probability cannot become an actuality. There is no possible way she could defeat Anos, hence she accepted her defeat. There is no possible world in which anos was defeated, hence no way she could have defeated him.

I overall disagree with this; the evidence indicating the actual existence of multiple futures rather than a simple hypothetical basis is just too strong. Not to mention that we assume time to be infinite and all events to be predetermined by default.

The previous OP claim is that this world exists inside the Kandaquizorte, so do they all exist as crystals? as this is what everything made from the Kandaquizorte is made from, as seen in my OP.
None of your arguments here actually addressed anything in my OP, you simply made claims contrary to the source material as I have proven and you failed to substantiate them.
Here are my Core arguments again, so please in your reply, I will like for them to be addressed

1. The crystal is what contains these countless possibilities and can materialize them: You need to show how this is wrong
2. The term "possibilities" was the word used in this texts: You need to prove that this possibilities are actual worlds and not what the term "possible worlds" mean
3. Mechanics of actualization: it was shown that this possible worlds had to be materialized, something already existing do not need to be created again. Please resolve this in your argument
4. Everything in the Kandaquizorte is made up of crystals: if the OP claim is that these worlds exists inside the Kandaquizorte, then all the future timelines already existing are also made up of crystals.
5. The text explicitly called the future world unreal by referring to the real world as "real world". Which would mean this worlds are not real and there is no alternate reality playing put anywhere

I will like for you to address the core of my argument, which are this and you did not touch a bit, you simply made statements that contradicts each other and statements that are not in the source material.
N.B. Your claim that the world is linear, means low 2-C, the other claim is 2-A, both cannot exist at the same time. So please pick an argument and argue for it.

 

[Wikisource]

Man, this will be interesting

 

[Digital_Franz]

Not to mention that we assume time to be infinite and all events to be predetermined by default.

I don't want to argue in this thread but what is this? You know that what you want to argue with this is wrong?
The fact that time is supposed to be infinite (uncountably infinite) has nothing to do with possible futures, but with the Low 2-C rating of space-time continuums.
Now looking at futures, we don't assume anything at all. A verse with MWI is by default 2-B without any context placing it at 2-A and MWI is not talking about possibilities but universes directly coming from these possibilities because possibilities in themselves are not physical and are just possible events.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Was it just Future World that got re-upgraded or the Land of Traces too?

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Was it just Future World that got re-upgraded or the Land of Traces too?

both

 

[CloverDragon03]

On what basis was the Land of Traces re-upgraded bro ain't no way

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

On what basis was the Land of Traces re-upgraded bro ain't no way

All devine domains scale to naftas world

 

[PrinceofPein]

On what basis was the Land of Traces re-upgraded bro ain't no way

None, but I will guess since the land of traces was a God's domain like that of the crystal world created by Naphta, they decided to make it 2-A too. I am just reading Anos profile. I feel like that is underhanded and a separate thread should have been made for it.
If I had seen it, I would have added it to my OP, anytime I am on PC, I will add it.

It just serves to reason that since the land of trace is a single world, the crystal also created a single world by picking out of the countless possible futures, so this divine domains are single worlds.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah that's some BS ngl, supporters didn't even mention it they just subtly did that crap

 

[DemonKing021]

Yeah that's some BS ngl, supporters didn't even mention it they just subtly did that crap

Really now? Now I am even doubtful that people agreeing to this thread have read the previous one.

Tatsumi clearly stated in the previous thread that all divine domains scale to each other which includes the Land of Traces. So by upgrading Future World Crystal they were upgrading every divine domain.

Once again, every divine domain is said to be the same as the Future World, Land of Traces, Sprouting City etc. They're all manifestations of Order, possess the same structure/framework as the world but on a miniature level.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Once again, every divine domain is said to be the same as the Future World, Land of Traces, Sprouting City etc. They're all manifestations of Order, possess the same structure/framework as the world but on a miniature level.

This literally is not enough to give them all the same size, how the hell did this pass???

 

[PrinceofPein]

This literally is not enough to give them all the same size, how the hell did this pass???

They never really made an argument for it. Just passed it as a law even though the rules require them making a CRT for it.

And If all divine domain are same size, I guess it is just 100*700 million years hence they are all High 3A.

 

[ROZAN-U]

This literally is not enough to give them all the same size, how the hell did this pass???

I don't think it was for 2-A , they were 4D(Low 2-C) construct due to being same size , Anos profile has Upto 2-A cause Grilliam naviem was capable of destroying Militia world as well if he didn't hold back.

 

[DemonKing021]

This literally is not enough to give them all the same size, how the hell did this pass???

Just read the CRT. They posted the scans there. I just posted a small paragraph, not everything. Or just ask Tatsumi to clarify themselves. The point is they did mention the reason. Maybe it wasn't clear enough.

And If all divine domain are same size, I guess it is just 100*700 million years hence they are all High 3A.

I am not very good with dimensional scaling but that's not LOT's limit though. The God of Traces said that it can contain 70 billion years of timelines with ease. So the limit isn't set and that's why people scale.

Anyway I don't think LOT is relevant currently. If the CRT passes both will be downgraded and if it doesn't, it won't affect the verse. In either case Future World Crystal is the most important matter currently. So there's no point in derailing the thread.