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Maou Gakuin Downgrades are Back Again (For the Second Time)

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PrinceofPein said:
Mid Godly is regeneration from having everything erased except fundamental aspects of one's existence e.g. concepts, narratives e.t.c. so regenerating from just concepts and the likes will be MGR
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This is the same here, it is “source”. Unless you think source is not a fundamental aspect of individual's existence, then you are going against the lore.
But since you admitted you did not read OP, I kinda understand the confusion you are having.
 
Deagonx said:
I'm aware, that's why I said if there is specific information that establishes a mind that remains independent of the destroyed soul, it should remain LG, but given the fuzzy relationship between these concepts, in the absence of a concrete reference to a "mind" independent of the soul, clear evidence of both body and soul being destroyed is sufficient.


I disagree, but we likely will not convince each other.


He is regenerating from his "source" which is something beyond the body, soul, and spirit. I think that qualifies.
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Well I thought the argument was about regenerating from the mind is mid-godly, the source still qualifies for a fundamental part of their existence, so it can be High-Godly in my book
 
Dereck03 said:
I just came back from a massive skill issues moment, could somebody tell me which things are still being discussed?
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The big point of contention is Mid-Godly Regeneration: Unlike Low-Godly, it requires regeneration from the destruction of "Body, Soul, and Mind." We have explicit evidence for body and soul, but none of the scans use the word "mind" explicitly. I think Mid Godly is still appropriate here as there's no evidence of a mind that remains independent of body and soul.

IDK anything about the concept manip stuff. but you can view my earlier comment for my assessment on the other things.
 
Deagonx said:
The big point of contention is Mid-Godly Regeneration: Unlike Low-Godly, it requires regeneration from the destruction of "Body, Soul, and Mind." We have explicit evidence for body and soul, but none of the scans use the word "mind" explicitly. I think Mid Godly is still appropriate here as there's no evidence of a mind that remains independent of body and soul.
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Dereck03 said:
Well it has already been proven that it also includes the souls in the reiner scan, and also that the source stores the memories and the related mind related stuffs after the destruction of the body, so it is safe to say that there is no mind if the source has to do the work of the mind. And again, more feats about all this remain untranslated.
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Okay, if that's settled then I can update the OP later to list what staff agree/disagree with what. Also, could we maybe discuss the possibility that it isn't regen, but resurrection? Deceived's post in that regard made a lot of sense.
 
Deagonx said:
These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

I think what is described in the scans is enough to justify this.
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I could agree with this then, if this is fine then Info 2 can stay.
 
Deagonx said:
To be honest I'm not clear on what the distinction is, in a practical sense?
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Regeneration is something that just happens passively, while resurrection specifically needs to be activated. It's like the distinction between regenerating and using a healing spell.
 
Deagonx said:
I would need to see the scans entailing this. The only scan I've seen suggests that Evansmana is only capable of damaging demons, not anything about Jerga being holy, or holy things not being able to damage holy things, or that Venuzdonoa did something to change that.
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Deagonx said:
Should I just take your word for it or are you going to explain?
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Addressing both points with this
Resistance Negation
As you can see, the sword was used to hurt a human who is clearly not a demon so the argument it only works on demons is thrown out the window. It shows tremendous power when used against demons is the correct statement. It's still very much capable of affecting others.
As you can see, it's explicitly said a holy sword cannot harm a true holy being. This makes the Gods and Jerga immune to holy manipulation in-verse. They cannot be affected by it whatsoever which Jerga boasts about.
Anos retaliates by summoning Venuzdonor and the holy sword then hurts him. He proceeds to ask Jerga "Do you still see yourself as a holy being?" In other words, Venuzdonoa destroyed the logic of Jerga being a holy being and cannot be affected by holy magic" allowing the holy sword to hurt him.
Regeneration Negation
As seen, Evansmana was able to negate Jerga's regeneration. It exerts even more power against demons and even becomes more tremendous against Anos.
Any magic with enough power can destroy a source. There's no need to constantly stress the effect on Anos if it's just referring to destroying sources.

The entire notion of bypassing regen negation is confounded for these reasons;
  1. It's explicitly said to regenerate the source.
  2. Jerga tells Anos to resurrect as much as he wants that he will keep destroying him until he runs out of magic. If it's by rewinding time to before the source was destroyed, there's no way the total amount of magic will continue reducing.
  3. It's explicitly said Anos is weakened after resurrecting and is suffering from the effects of Evansmana against his source. This serves as two things. The sword does serve a function beyond merely destroying his source and it further proves that the regeneration isn't done by rewinding time as if it's rewound to before he was harmed, why is he suffering from it's effects?
Like I said, the only thing involving time manipulation is sending the spell doing the regeneration into the future because you can't cast magic if your source is destroyed so you specifically regenerate your source in the future by casting the regeneration spell at that last moment you're still alive. This doesn't circumvent regeneration negation in anyway.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Anos retaliates by summoning Venuzdonor and the holy sword then hurts him. He proceeds to ask Jerga "Do you still see yourself as a holy being?" In other words, Venuzdonoa destroyed the logic of Jerga being a holy being and cannot be affected by holy magic" allowing the holy sword to hurt him.
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Having read the full scans, I agree. Venuzdonoa seems to be responsible for the change. I am not sure that it's best characterized as resistance negation, but I think that's probably acceptable for now.
 
Deagonx said:
Having read the full scans, I agree. Venuzdonoa seems to be responsible for the change. I am not sure that it's best characterized as resistance negation, but I think that's probably acceptable for now.
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Dereck03 said:
Venuz's point is that most feats that do not involve direct attacks are done just by being present. E.g. when negated the regeneration of the gods just by being present, when regenerated the source of the user while resisting the regeneration negation of itself just by being present and many more. Like the previous ones in this venuzdonoa made jerga's immunity non-existent to begin with so Evansmana can affect him.
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Yeah, venuz simply does the feats by simply being present and destroying the reason/logic. And simply negating the immunity of someone who is immune to holy magic and thus making him so that holy magic can affect him is clearly Resistance Negation... Soon there will be more Resistance Negation feats but they are still untranslated.
 
Deagonx said:
Yes, but the explicit reasoning for this is said to be the "overwhelming difference in power between them."
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"Power" here is referring to magic power not literal power. They're not scared because he has much more magic, they're unconsciously scared because his magic power is too much for their weak magic resistance to resist. Yes, it is tied to their magic resistance.
He notes in his case, the demons of this era can't sense his power at all. It's a natural survival instinct because magic power you can't sense is something that causes you to die from sensing it. Once again he notes it's something that occurs in those with weak magic resistance. There is no need to factor supernatural resistances into whether you get scared just because somebody has more power than you.
In Ainz case he was hiding it. Anos isn't hiding his own, they just can't sense it because it will kill them.

There was a scan where he intimidated humans. Keep in my mind they've been fighting him since he was born (Yes he was a menance right from the womb). There's no need for the humans by now to only feel fear because he has so much magic. He specifically fear haxed them because humans have trivial resistance to magic. If this is just power difference there's no need to specify their resistance to magic. This is supported by the fact he can knockout/incapacitate/put people to sleep with raw magic power.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
"Power" here is referring to magic power not literal power. They're not scared because he has much more magic, they're unconsciously scared because his magic power is too much for their weak magic resistance to resist. Yes, it is tied to their magic resistance.
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Okay, but that isn't fear manipulation just because they instinctually fear great magic power, and the reason it didn't affect Anos wasn't because he has "resistance to fear manipulation" it is because he is far stronger than her. So why would Anos have "resistance to fear manipulation?"
 
ImmortalDread said:
True true, I am wondering when you are going to update your verse touha because a lot of your profiles lacking as I see :)
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Progress on that is, well, y'know,
image.png


Anyways, I've updated the vote tallies to the best of my knowledge. If anything is incorrect, please let me know. I only included staff votes, for reference. I'll respond to some of the arguments above shortly.
 
Tatsumi504 said:

There's no contradiction. The common factor is that the weapon has zero magic power of it's own while Anos hand does. The problem was simply circumvented by actually supplying the weapon with his own magic power instead
Click to expand...

Simply because a physical attack fails against a barrier while a magically infused one doesn't, doesn't mean that barrier will inherently ignore all physical damage regardless of strength. That is the textbook definition of an NLF.

Tatsumi504 said:
It isn't when you consider what he said is outrightly wrong
The sword is made specifically to prevent him from resurrecting, regenerating, reviving through every means and yes, there's knowledge of magic that can regenerate the source after it has been destroyed.
Click to expand...
Except that's ignoring how Agronemt works. As per Anos' own words, it specifically returns his source to the state it was in before being attacked. Which means, after casting Agronemt, his source is reverted to a state wherein it was never harmed by Evansmana, and therefore never had its regen "negated". Literally the entire basis of the spell is reversing something that happened, so claiming otherwise seems extremely odd.

Also, @Deagonx, since you seem to think that fearhax based on power gaps like this are invalid, would you say that Anos' own fearhax are invalid (scans are here and here)?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Progress on that is, well, y'know,
image.png


Anyways, I've updated the vote tallies to the best of my knowledge. If anything is incorrect, please let me know. I only included staff votes, for reference. I'll respond to some of the arguments above shortly.
Click to expand...
Ya I am waiting since I have revisions on this verse as well. So I hope you won't take that long. ;)
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Simply because a physical attack fails against a barrier while a magically infused one doesn't, doesn't mean that barrier will inherently ignore all physical damage regardless of strength. That is the textbook definition of an NLF.
Click to expand...
Well, if that is the case, how would we ever truly establish physical immunity?

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, @Deagonx, since you seem to think that fearhax based on power gaps like this are invalid, would you say that Anos' own fearhax are invalid (scans are here and here)?
Click to expand...
For the first link, I would say the fact that it explicit details that his magic is infused into his words, resulting in compulsion, that this is legit. It's not really fear related though. More like mind control.

In the second link, he calls it an intimidation "tactic" not like a manip spell that he cast. So I am not seeing a great reason to consider him as having "fear manipulation"
 
Deagonx said:
Well, if that is the case, how would we ever truly establish physical immunity?
Click to expand...
Typically speaking, for legitimate invulnerability we require some mechanic behind why something is invulnerable. For instance, a character whose body is frozen in time and cannot be physically altered, or a character who is tied to a universal law stating they cannot be harmed. Otherwise, we usually default to very high durability. If the standards are lower than that, then that's fine, but this is just the impression I was given from the page itself and discussions surrounding it.

Deagonx said:
For the first link, I would say the fact that it explicit details that his magic is infused into his words, resulting in compulsion, that this is legit. It's not really fear related though. More like mind control.

In the second link, he calls it an intimidation "tactic" not like a manip spell that he cast. So I am not seeing a great reason to consider him as having "fear manipulation"
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Yeah, I wasn't contesting the compulsion stuff, it just happened to be lumped together with the fear stuff. Should I update the OP to include a possible removal of Anos' fearhax?

ImmortalDread said:
Ya I am waiting since I have revisions on this verse as well. So I hope you won't take that long. ;)
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I'd appreciate it if you'd run them by me, since the last thread demonstrated that there is far more context to the feats and abilities on the profiles that the justifications don't include (on top of new evidence for pre-existing things I've found). I would hope you don't want a repeat of last thread.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Typically speaking, for legitimate invulnerability we require some mechanic behind why something is invulnerable. For instance, a character whose body is frozen in time and cannot be physically altered, or a character who is tied to a universal law stating they cannot be harmed. Otherwise, we usually default to very high durability.
Click to expand...
I think the idea of magic barriers being immune to physical attacks is intuitive enough on it's own, personally.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Should I update the OP to include a possible removal of Anos' fearhax?
Click to expand...
Sure.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I'd appreciate it if you'd run them by me, since the last thread demonstrated that there is far more context to the feats and abilities on the profiles that the justifications don't include (on top of new evidence for pre-existing things I've found). I would hope you don't want a repeat of last thread.
Click to expand...
Simply present the context or remove abilities.
 
Deagonx said:
Let's sideline the discussion about Touhou for another thread.

Is there anything else that needs to be discussed?
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More discussion is needed on the validity of Anos' fearhax, and we should come to a conclusion on if MGR should be removed in favor of regular resurrection, as well as which level of regen should replace it (if any).
 
Before dropping my opinion on if sources are universal concepts or not, and more specifically Type 1 Concepts.

I'd like to ask a question in regards to this statement from @Tatsumi504

Dividing a source into two splits an individual into two- down to their mind and soul.
Click to expand...

Does this create a pseudo duplicate of this person, and if so, are both bounded by the same source/concept?, like if you were to destroy the original person's source, causing them to die, or lose this "individual-ness". Would it cause that duplicate to die as well?, or are these entirely separate entities, with separate sources, meaning the death of the original wouldn't do anything to the duplicate?.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Before dropping my opinion on if sources are universal concepts or not, and more specifically Type 1 Concepts.

I'd like to ask a question in regards to this statement from @Tatsumi504



Does this create a pseudo duplicate of this person, and if so, are both bounded by the same source/concept?, like if you were to destroy the original person's source, causing them to die, or lose this "individual-ness". Would it cause that duplicate to die as well?, or are these entirely separate entities, with separate sources, meaning the death of the original wouldn't do anything to the duplicate?.
Click to expand...
This seems to be what Tatsumi was referring to, although I'm not sure if this answers your question. It seems like it mixes/fuses multiple people's sources after splitting them if I'm reading correctly.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This seems to be what Tatsumi was referring to, although I'm not sure if this answers your question. It seems like it mixes/fuses multiple people's sources after splitting them if I'm reading correctly.
Click to expand...
It doesn't really answer the main question, but it does provide more context/evidence for me to consider, so thank you for giving me this scan.
 
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